Cryptic is lazy. Plus PVP in STO is broken. Its requires such a huge min-maxing, and such an array of counters that its extremely hardcore, in a game targeted towards casual players.
Of course, super hardcore pvp doesnt work with a mostly casual playerbase, and Cryptic would be dumb to invest money in it.
TOR's space "Starfighter" PVP on the other hand, is fun, even with mediocre rewards. There even your starer ship CAN Kill a veteran. Its not easy, the veteran has the advantage but its doable.
With a starter ship, you'll get a 1 kill for 5 deaths ratio in TOR Starfighter.
And you get that for FREE.
You heard it.
With a free starter ship you havent invested a dime in, you can already kill in pvp.
And even the looser side gets rewards.
In STO? Try taking a newly aquired ship with its white Mk X gear to pvp. You got a fat zero chance of any kills. That's the main reason that PVP has a handful of people playing it.
To get to the same 1 to 5 chance, you have to spend tens of millions of EC and get fleet gear and all the pay to win consoles here.
And that's just for the ability to simply harm your opponent, instead of dying instantly with a "Lern to play noobz" comment.
While its true that this absolute need for total min-maxing and buying every pay to win item should increase profits, so few people can afford it that its overall impact on Cryptic's income should be neligible.
So that's why the already lazy Cryptic goes for the easiest way of fixing something.
The funny thing is that they actually nerfed both "factions" now, both PvE and PvP guys.
Pve nerf was the reputations system nerf which reduced this "almighty" power creep many complained about and made the STFs a little less roflstomp than they were ... so I've been told by a friend who heard it from a DPS dedicated group : can't tell you from live experience because I am not bringing my Tac Rom into space since the annoying active doffs reslotting bug came out.
In few days, we'll have the PvP queue nerf.
So ... time to stop also the PvP-PvE war, guys and share a hug
I recently leveled a new Klingon character and all I had to do was get to tier 2 Omega rep, get an elite fleet shield, got a decent warp core from the exchange and blue Mk XI weapons, spent 8 million in EC in doffs.
Was I as potent as my fully equipped Fed characters? No. But do I still kill people in PvP? Absolutely!
A little bit of knowledge goes a long way.
IDK how many times I offer people help that I see in the Q s that are obviously not PvPers only to have my PMs go unanswered. But yet they have no problem spamming zone chat saying PvP is impossible. They didn't even activate a TT while under attack!
I've been around since Beta and seen many beginners go from hopeless to potent PvPers within a few months.
So don't say it's insurmountable bc it's not. It's about learning how abilities work and developing reflexes and piloting skills which take some time.
Erm. You just said you had to get to tier 2 omega rep, get an elite fleet shield (Which requires EC and a fleet with access to it) , a decent warp core, and spend 8 freaking million on doffs.
That is putting a load of effort into it.
Not insurmountable, but still a bucketload of effort.
In the TOR example, you don't have to do any of that.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Erm. You just said you had to get to tier 2 omega rep, get an elite fleet shield (Which requires EC and a fleet with access to it) , a decent warp core, and spend 8 freaking million on doffs.
That is putting a load of effort into it.
Not insurmountable, but still a bucketload of effort.
In the TOR example, you don't have to do any of that.
Bucketload? That's peanuts. Grabbing the Fleet Credit for a shield is rather easy - couple of fleet marks here, some dilithium there and eight million EC is rediculously easy to gather. And T2 Omega with sponsorship is what, 3 days?
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Devotion Paladin
Bucketload? That's peanuts. Grabbing the Fleet Credit for a shield is rather easy - couple of fleet marks here, some dilithium there and eight million EC is rediculously easy to gather. And T2 Omega with sponsorship is what, 3 days?
Peanuts FOR YOU. Not for a new player. Again, elitists thinking that everybody is also an elitist super min maxer. I know, all elitists think like that, but it is always surprising in its sheer lack of realism.
But than again, my point was that the TOR version gave all that absolutely for free. It doesnt require any investment from you, and nets you something useful for pvp.
Also, tagging epohhs is not hard. But its time consuming. Again, I'm trying to say that in TOR, that's instant and free.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Peanuts FOR YOU. Not for a new player. Again, elitists thinking that everybody is also an elitist super min maxer. I know, all elitists think like that, but it is always surprising in its sheer lack of realism.
But than again, my point was that the TOR version gave all that absolutely for free. It doesnt require any investment from you, and nets you something useful for pvp.
Also, tagging epohhs is not hard. But its time consuming. Again, I'm trying to say that in TOR, that's instant and free.
Elitism? Hah. I'm not the 'elite'. Also, it has nothing to do with min-maxing. You don't need to min-max to roll through PvE and sell the loot. You don't need to min-max to grab a couple of fleet marks. It's just common sense.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Devotion Paladin
Elitism? Hah. I'm not the 'elite'. Also, it has nothing to do with min-maxing. You don't need to min-max to roll through PvE and sell the loot. You don't need to min-max to grab a couple of fleet marks. It's just common sense.
Errm. No its not, and it is min maxing.
First, you need to find a fleet for the elite shields.
Second, to get the 8 mil any time soon, you need to do farm foundry missions. Again, not something a new player would know.
I know, its easy if you got a lot of min maxed alts, but that was not my point.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Peanuts FOR YOU. Not for a new player. Again, elitists thinking that everybody is also an elitist super min maxer. I know, all elitists think like that, but it is always surprising in its sheer lack of realism.
But than again, my point was that the TOR version gave all that absolutely for free. It doesnt require any investment from you, and nets you something useful for pvp.
Also, tagging epohhs is not hard. But its time consuming. Again, I'm trying to say that in TOR, that's instant and free.
You don't need to be an min maxed to run some STFs or tag epohhs or get enough look to get more than 20 million a week. And if you are a new player there are only so many ways you can spend resources other than gear. It is just the knowledge that is needed and there are plenty of people willing to help. If the pvp community was really that elitist it wouldn't offer as much help as it does.
Also, the fleet holding have made getting gear easier as you don't have to buy a console for tens of millions of ec. You can get some fleet makes and dil to get an even better one. And you can get those resources running almost any content in game.
Pvp in STO might not be free but it certainly is not as insurmountable as some people make it sound. Especially now that premades cannot pugstomp.
Will you still die? Yes, but so do even the most hardcore veterans.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]-32nd Vipers- PvP Team
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
You don't need to be an min maxed to run some STFs or tag epohhs or get enough look to get more than 20 million a week. And if you are a new player there are only so many ways you can spend resources other than gear. It is just the knowledge that is needed and there are plenty of people willing to help. If the pvp community was really that elitist it wouldn't offer as much help as it does.
Also, the fleet holding have made getting gear easier as you don't have to buy a console for tens of millions of ec. You can get some fleet makes and dil to get an even better one. And you can get those resources running almost any content in game.
Pvp in STO might not be free but it certainly is not as insurmountable as some people make it sound. Especially now that premades cannot pugstomp.
Will you still die? Yes, but so do even the most hardcore veterans.
I know. I could propably get into it with 3 week's worth of effort, but than again I have been playing since the game came out.
That's why I was trying to put the situation to a new player's view who just got his or her first level 50.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I know. I could propably get into it with 3 week's worth of effort, but than again I have been playing since the game came out.
That's why I was trying to put the situation to a new player's view who just got his or her first level 50.
Completely agreed. And as it was just said by edalgo knowledge is also part of the problem. This game is very bad at teaching you how to gear up and spec up. Thus, a new player that got to 50 stomping NPCs will have a rude awakening in pvp.
And to bring this back around to the topic at hand, pvp's rewards are already so pitiful and about to become less thanks to craptic's abundance of intelligence that unless it is for the challenge it is not worth it to pvp.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]-32nd Vipers- PvP Team
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
Star wars the Old Republic. It got a very bad free to play model, but the space pvp is actually more balanced and has a more level playing field there.
Can't tell if its ground pvp is any good, I suck at that.
Also, nerfing rewards is nothing new. Just check out the Borg Neural Processors nerf.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I must admit I don't know a ton about these repeatable missions since I hardly ever do them. That being said and from what I read here, a more reasonable solution would have been to axe the 20 hr cooldown and just exclude private pvp matches from pvp mission rewards (if the primary factor behind introducing this Nerf was in fact people ghosting the private ques so that large groups of players could make out like bandits with the dilithium.) This would have helped limit abuse and it would still encourage people to play pvp because the rewards are decent. Why Cryptic chose the extreme solution is anybody's guess at this point.
Also, nerfing rewards is nothing new. Just check out the Borg Neural Processors nerf.
hmm... still i can earn plenty of dil with any stf's in comparison to what's there coming to pvp.
from the implementation of that nerf on there will be no way to get more than 4320 dil a day by pewing on a fed, no matter if 3 or 13 hours... or am i wrong on that?
In STO? Try taking a newly aquired ship with its white Mk X gear to pvp. You got a fat zero chance of any kills. That's the main reason that PVP has a handful of people playing it.
To get to the same 1 to 5 chance, you have to spend tens of millions of EC and get fleet gear and all the pay to win consoles here.
And that's just for the ability to simply harm your opponent, instead of dying instantly with a "Lern to play noobz" comment.
Actually, my current B'rel-R build that I just lolz around with could use non min-max gear.. Get the Transphasic Cluster from the Breen mission, a B'rel-R, and just use it to spew Science stuff, drop mines, and troll people until some one comes along to kill them.. Transphasic Weapons are kind of cheap from last I checked. PVP isn't always about killing the opponent.. Some times its fun being that buzzing mosquito that just keeps gnawing at them until the hammer shows up to finish the job.
Back before the Space Reputation system introduced such a grind, You could eaisly have gotten gear by doing the space STFs for Borg Related gear. But that is a couple years ago.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Actually, my current B'rel-R build that I just lolz around with could use non min-max gear.. Get the Transphasic Cluster from the Breen mission, a B'rel-R, and just use it to spew Science stuff, drop mines, and troll people until some one comes along to kill them.. Transphasic Weapons are kind of cheap from last I checked. PVP isn't always about killing the opponent.. Some times its fun being that buzzing mosquito that just keeps gnawing at them until the hammer shows up to finish the job.
Back before the Space Reputation system introduced such a grind, You could eaisly have gotten gear by doing the space STFs for Borg Related gear. But that is a couple years ago.
Yeah, I think it was the reps and the Doffs that raised the bar a bit high.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Yeah, I think it was the reps and the Doffs that raised the bar a bit high.
Also my Ship didnt' have the transphasics on it.. but I did decide to see how much it would cost to change out my non transphasic weapons for transphasics..
3,273,000 EC for 1 Mk XII Transphasic Torp Accx2, CrtH, 1 Transphasic Mine Mk XII CrtD, CrtHx2, 2x Transphasic Compression Consoles Very Rare mk XII
Also I have 0 points in any reputations for this character. Too lazy to grind it.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
It's just really disheartening that Cryptic cares so little about PvP'ers.
They come up with the easiest/least time-consuming way to fix this ground PvP exploit with no consideration to the players that use the system as intended.
I have given Cryptic a pass on many aspects of their neglect towards PvP and even defended them in some instances, but this dilithium nerf is too much. It's a complete and total disregard for the PvP community, a community that spends more money per-capita on this game than anyone else, yet they still have no problems marginalizing and alienating us.
It's just really disheartening that Cryptic cares so little about PvP'ers.
They come up with the easiest/least time-consuming way to fix this ground PvP exploit with no consideration to the players that use the system as intended.
I have given Cryptic a pass on many aspects of their neglect towards PvP and even defended them in some instances, but this dilithium nerf is too much. It's a complete and total disregard for the PvP community, a community that spends more money per-capita on this game than anyone else, yet they still have no problems marginalizing and alienating us.
This could not be any more true. I myself have barely ever post in the forums despite playing since before f2p. But this irked me to such a degree here I am.
The most insulting part to me is that there has been no word on the Devi despite the fact that it's been pretty clear this is the most asinine, uninformed and plain stupid course of action they could take.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]-32nd Vipers- PvP Team
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
Their metrics probably showed PvP rewards are negligible to people playing genuinely and scrapping them altogether was an easier/cheaper solution to eliminate their abuse. They probably thought PvPers wouldn't care much about this change, since there are other more effective means to pile up on those same rewards handed out by pvp dailies. It's also very likely most pvpers are swimming in dilithium, possibly numbering in the hundred thousands if not millions (both refined and unrefined). Another reason they probably used to justify this this new patch.
While I can see the merit of this change, it's also true they are taking out incentives for people to PvP. Seriously, PvP has no real reward, no leaderboard beyond those dailies. That 1440 dil value was not much, but it was something. And they took it away. It's like telling people "go ahead and pvp, but you will get nothing out of it." And for that reason alone, I'm very against this change. The community is already losing its members, but now we won't get new blood which probably need that reward more than anything.
Eh, I could go on and write a wall of text but I'm tired.
A leaderboard would really be too much work for Cryptic. Their coders really, really seem to like the cheapest, easiest answer. 20 hour cooldowns!
And still, they can't even put in an event timer that tells us how is the cooldown. I ran into that problem with reps a load of times.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
A couple years ago Cryptic gutted the pvp rewards in Champions Online and said they were working on something new. Well that game had an amazing pvp community too. Even though the community was great, the reward had vanished, and so too did the casual type players that kept the queues going. Slowly but surely pvp dried up as people just sat in Ren Center dualing, because why queue for no reward and get ganked by ubersquad of pvpheroes when you could private match and whoop TRIBBLE with an audience? Some of the best gear came from pvp, and they released much better, easily acquired pve gear at the same time.
You wanna talk about a barren wasteland of dead queues, tumbleweeds, and eerie cowboy music? Yeh. Oh same company, about to pull the same boneheaded move, just that STOP (sto pvp) never had decent pvp centric rewards that were strong in pve.
Champions Online -still- hasnt ever got the pvp gear replaced with something new.
Hearing about what happened to champions online is only making me more depressed. I mean let's be honest, the IP is the only thing keeping most of us here. Taking away the only reward I got for hours of queuing is just another slap to the face
Hearing about what happened to champions online is only making me more depressed. I mean let's be honest, the IP is the only thing keeping most of us here. Taking away the only reward I got for hours of queuing is just another slap to the face
Yes, and you know what? They don't even reply to us about this change, they are simply ignoring us, and, frankly speaking, i don't understand why such rude behavior against us. Bah... i'm really disappointed
Comments
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The funny thing is that they actually nerfed both "factions" now, both PvE and PvP guys.
Pve nerf was the reputations system nerf which reduced this "almighty" power creep many complained about and made the STFs a little less roflstomp than they were ... so I've been told by a friend who heard it from a DPS dedicated group : can't tell you from live experience because I am not bringing my Tac Rom into space since the annoying active doffs reslotting bug came out.
In few days, we'll have the PvP queue nerf.
So ... time to stop also the PvP-PvE war, guys and share a hug
Erm. You just said you had to get to tier 2 omega rep, get an elite fleet shield (Which requires EC and a fleet with access to it) , a decent warp core, and spend 8 freaking million on doffs.
That is putting a load of effort into it.
Not insurmountable, but still a bucketload of effort.
In the TOR example, you don't have to do any of that.
Bucketload? That's peanuts. Grabbing the Fleet Credit for a shield is rather easy - couple of fleet marks here, some dilithium there and eight million EC is rediculously easy to gather. And T2 Omega with sponsorship is what, 3 days?
Peanuts FOR YOU. Not for a new player. Again, elitists thinking that everybody is also an elitist super min maxer. I know, all elitists think like that, but it is always surprising in its sheer lack of realism.
But than again, my point was that the TOR version gave all that absolutely for free. It doesnt require any investment from you, and nets you something useful for pvp.
Also, tagging epohhs is not hard. But its time consuming. Again, I'm trying to say that in TOR, that's instant and free.
Elitism? Hah. I'm not the 'elite'. Also, it has nothing to do with min-maxing. You don't need to min-max to roll through PvE and sell the loot. You don't need to min-max to grab a couple of fleet marks. It's just common sense.
Errm. No its not, and it is min maxing.
First, you need to find a fleet for the elite shields.
Second, to get the 8 mil any time soon, you need to do farm foundry missions. Again, not something a new player would know.
I know, its easy if you got a lot of min maxed alts, but that was not my point.
You don't need to be an min maxed to run some STFs or tag epohhs or get enough look to get more than 20 million a week. And if you are a new player there are only so many ways you can spend resources other than gear. It is just the knowledge that is needed and there are plenty of people willing to help. If the pvp community was really that elitist it wouldn't offer as much help as it does.
Also, the fleet holding have made getting gear easier as you don't have to buy a console for tens of millions of ec. You can get some fleet makes and dil to get an even better one. And you can get those resources running almost any content in game.
Pvp in STO might not be free but it certainly is not as insurmountable as some people make it sound. Especially now that premades cannot pugstomp.
Will you still die? Yes, but so do even the most hardcore veterans.
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
I know. I could propably get into it with 3 week's worth of effort, but than again I have been playing since the game came out.
That's why I was trying to put the situation to a new player's view who just got his or her first level 50.
Completely agreed. And as it was just said by edalgo knowledge is also part of the problem. This game is very bad at teaching you how to gear up and spec up. Thus, a new player that got to 50 stomping NPCs will have a rude awakening in pvp.
And to bring this back around to the topic at hand, pvp's rewards are already so pitiful and about to become less thanks to craptic's abundance of intelligence that unless it is for the challenge it is not worth it to pvp.
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
Star wars the Old Republic. It got a very bad free to play model, but the space pvp is actually more balanced and has a more level playing field there.
Can't tell if its ground pvp is any good, I suck at that.
Also, nerfing rewards is nothing new. Just check out the Borg Neural Processors nerf.
hmm... still i can earn plenty of dil with any stf's in comparison to what's there coming to pvp.
from the implementation of that nerf on there will be no way to get more than 4320 dil a day by pewing on a fed, no matter if 3 or 13 hours... or am i wrong on that?
a bit more on a klink... let it be 6k...
any dil-nerf comparable i'm not aware of?
Shhhhh, they hate [REDACTED] enough without bringing in how one can earn Dil on one.
You could 8k-cap just via Ker'rat back before they made that a random daily.
Actually, my current B'rel-R build that I just lolz around with could use non min-max gear.. Get the Transphasic Cluster from the Breen mission, a B'rel-R, and just use it to spew Science stuff, drop mines, and troll people until some one comes along to kill them.. Transphasic Weapons are kind of cheap from last I checked. PVP isn't always about killing the opponent.. Some times its fun being that buzzing mosquito that just keeps gnawing at them until the hammer shows up to finish the job.
Back before the Space Reputation system introduced such a grind, You could eaisly have gotten gear by doing the space STFs for Borg Related gear. But that is a couple years ago.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Yeah, I think it was the reps and the Doffs that raised the bar a bit high.
That's pretty much what I think when I'm flying around in my head too
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Also my Ship didnt' have the transphasics on it.. but I did decide to see how much it would cost to change out my non transphasic weapons for transphasics..
3,273,000 EC for 1 Mk XII Transphasic Torp Accx2, CrtH, 1 Transphasic Mine Mk XII CrtD, CrtHx2, 2x Transphasic Compression Consoles Very Rare mk XII
Also I have 0 points in any reputations for this character. Too lazy to grind it.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
They come up with the easiest/least time-consuming way to fix this ground PvP exploit with no consideration to the players that use the system as intended.
I have given Cryptic a pass on many aspects of their neglect towards PvP and even defended them in some instances, but this dilithium nerf is too much. It's a complete and total disregard for the PvP community, a community that spends more money per-capita on this game than anyone else, yet they still have no problems marginalizing and alienating us.
@DevolvedOne
This could not be any more true. I myself have barely ever post in the forums despite playing since before f2p. But this irked me to such a degree here I am.
The most insulting part to me is that there has been no word on the Devi despite the fact that it's been pretty clear this is the most asinine, uninformed and plain stupid course of action they could take.
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
A leaderboard would really be too much work for Cryptic. Their coders really, really seem to like the cheapest, easiest answer. 20 hour cooldowns!
And still, they can't even put in an event timer that tells us how is the cooldown. I ran into that problem with reps a load of times.
You wanna talk about a barren wasteland of dead queues, tumbleweeds, and eerie cowboy music? Yeh. Oh same company, about to pull the same boneheaded move, just that STOP (sto pvp) never had decent pvp centric rewards that were strong in pve.
Champions Online -still- hasnt ever got the pvp gear replaced with something new.
Yes, and you know what? They don't even reply to us about this change, they are simply ignoring us, and, frankly speaking, i don't understand why such rude behavior against us. Bah... i'm really disappointed