It's not official canon, but the Prime Directive RPG did establish five races as conquered subjects of the Empire who serve in the KDF. So I think we could make the argument for other conquered races to be in, even if PD's Dunkar, Slirdarian, Hildarian, Cromarg, and Zoolie aren't included.
KDF races don't have to be treated like equals as in the Federation. They can totally have their own faction-appropriate flavor.
The "Prime Directive" books are not set in the Star Trek universe, they're set in the "Star Fleet Universe". SFB stuff is not allowed to use the Star Trek name. There's a lengthy bit in the main PD rulebook on the subject. In the GURPS version it's page 183 "Publisher's Information" under "PD vs Trek". I presume the D20 version has it as well on a similar page.
It's good stuff, Slirdarians are pretty cool and I'd totally get the heavy Pistol the one on the Klingons D20 cover is holding:
The "Pocket Book" novels Cryptic is appearently allowed to reference to some degree actually state the reverse: subject species are only allowed as servants on KDF ship, not as warriors.
That's why the current situation in STO is so unusual.
One of the biggest things people keep missing with the Kazon is that they stole the ships they own, they actually aren't Kazon in origin. They were a slave race to the Trabe and if not for Jal Sankur pulling the Kazon tribes together, they would still be such. (VOY: Initiations & Alliances)
They stole their ships and technology, much as they continue to do. The only factor in this is that the Delta Quad. tech where the Kazon are, is not as foreign as something developed in the Alpha/Beta/Gamma Quad, so fitting it to their ships is much easier. They aren't complete morons as many would argue, but a race that was the lowest of the low and have just started their lives as a warp capable species.
Yes I admit I really hate them, and think adding them as anything but target practice is a bad choice, but that's my personal opinion. No KDF does not need new races, nor does the Fed or Roms. What we need is more end game content, such as the Dyson Sphere, to keep people interested and not going back through the story arc.
If a new race is to be added, make it like with LoR, a new faction, something different, yet familiar. If you want to add Kazon, make a whole new story arc for them where you go through overthrowing the Trabe, fighting to aid your sect in gaining power, THEN forming an alliance with one of the Alpha Quad races like the Roms do. But don't make it like the Roms where 10 levels into the game you get to choose, make it so that you get to level 30-40, that way you HAD to prove your worth.
Not only would that lead to a new spin on the new peace between the Feds and KDF (mutual protection against the Kazon sects) but also something to keep long time players interested in the game instead of the constant grind for things they may or may not need. I know that having more than 3 toons with T5 rep (minus 8472CC) get's a little boring going out, doing rep runs, getting what ever my fleet needs, helping new players/toons get marks, etc etc.
A whole new racial story arc would be perfect to kick off the launch of the Delta Quad. Especially a race they we're forced to learn about through the first bit of Voyager, and hell being a part of the Kazon would be awesome if it were just that, Kazon. Not Kazon till level 10 then you choose alliance with Fed/KDF like with the Roms (don't have to), but a race that HAS a huge back story waiting to be explored!
Anyways, just my opinion which is just that, mine, hate on it if you want but honestly, it opens more avenues for PWE/Cryptic, than adding it in as a new Fed/KDF race.
Given that we already have a fight against the Borg, Undine, Voth, Tal Shiar, and the near vorlon-like Iconians why would we fear the Kazon?
True, the Klingons might not even engage Kazon ships.. not very honorable to pummel puny (well large, but puny in powerscale) ships
They might see thier ships and actually ignore them... ooooh that's gonna burn.. Borg first call them worthless and then Klingons ignoring them as weak as well :P
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
And let me stop you right there. They do. With the leadup to STO the Klingon Defense Force underwent an important social change. They stopped being about just the klingons. With the addition of the Gorn, Naussicans, Letheans, and the Orions they started to form a collective of species to rival the Federation but with the one key difference of being formed from the opposite direction. It is an interesting fact in itself and if cryptic were mindful about it then they most certainly SHOULD NOT run screaming away from it because it doesn't line up with how the KDF was portraryed on TV.
All things change with time and its the most authentic thing imaginable to recognize this fact (which did after all serve as a pretty big theme of at least three ST series (TOS, TNG, and ENT) and three of the movies (Undiscovered Country, Generations, Insurrection.) If it isn't the point of this franchise, it's a BIG part of it.) Of course that change has to make sense but this is exactly what more species for the KDF does. On the one hand they have to stand up to other collectives (The Dominion, the Federation, and let's not forget the Borg) and there's only so much you can do with just one band of TRIBBLE especially when they haven't got much to fight with except attitudes and bad hair. It immediately highlights the Empire in Klingon Empire, and it might just lead to multi-species tendencies that could explain why the Klingons will eventually join the Federation (see. ENT). It all has to start somewhere and why not let it play out where 1) it already has some footing and 2) fans of the show can actually enjoy it (because you can be damned sure that evolving the KDF isn't going to happen any time soon in any other medium.)
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duncanidaho11, the Klingons only joined the Federation in an alternate timeline where Archer and his crew didn't destroy the Expanse.
In the STO timeline the obviously didn't join the Federation otherwise they wouldn't still have their own Temporal investigation service in the 29th century.
duncanidaho11, the Klingons only joined the Federation in an alternate timeline where Archer and his crew didn't destroy the Expanse.
Nope, that [at least by all appearances] was mainline. Daniels wouldn't be trying to argue for Archer's survival if the battle where the FED saved the galaxy wasn't necessary because Archer's multi-fold suicide plan worked. "To hell with the Federation, to hell with Earth" he could have said "if we stopped these galaxy destroying TRIBBLE NOW."
But he didn't because what we saw wasn't the alternative to destroying the expanse but the eventual return (a la Iconians, we should be very familiar to how this would play out) of the Sphere Builders. The expanse in the Enterprise era was only their first attempt, emboldened perhaps by their other schemes to futz with the timeline. Its destruction shouldn't be taken as an indication for the KDF not joining the FED (because after all what you can build once you can build again and that second attempt would probably require more than one measily NX class starship to thwart. Ergo the FED and the Enterprise J.)
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True, the Klingons might not even engage Kazon ships.. not very honorable to pummel puny (well large, but puny in powerscale) ships
They might see thier ships and actually ignore them... ooooh that's gonna burn.. Borg first call them worthless and then Klingons ignoring them as weak as well :P
It is quite likely considering they did exactly that to Ducats freighter in Ds9.
It is quite likely considering they did exactly that to Ducats freighter in Ds9.
True but the Kazon do tend to deploy their ships in groups. Get enough of them together and they might present a honorable use of torpedos to some KDF captain. :P
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Nope, that [at least by all appearances] was mainline. Daniels wouldn't be trying to argue for Archer's survival if the battle where the FED saved the galaxy wasn't necessary because Archer's multi-fold suicide plan worked. "To hell with the Federation, to hell with Earth" he could have said "if we stopped these galaxy destroying TRIBBLE NOW."
I'm sorry, but you're wrong on this. What was seen in the ENT episode was just one possible future outcome, that doesn't neccessarily mean it will happen. That event happening relies of everything from the moment that possible future was shown to Archer up untill the suposed event itself in the 26-th century to go smoothly and "as planned". The existence of the event could very much be changed by Picard turning left instead of right at a point in his life or Kirk shooting some species he wasn't suposed to shoot. Nothing guarantees that it has to happen.
Furthermore, as far as I can recollect from the dialogue atm - it was never explicitly said that the Klingons have become members of teh Federation, but it was said that 'an alliance' led by the Federation that even the Klingons are part of is fighting against the sphere builders. This doesn't sound to me like Klingons are Federation members, but rather reminds me of such alliance led by the Federation that even the Klingons and Romulans are part of, to fight the Dominion.
Besides, in STO terms it's quite obvious that the Klingons are not Federation members in the 29-th century if the 'captured' timeships are any indication.
Also worth pointing out is what some members of the community here have said before - noone guarantees that Daniels wasn't lying through his teeth to Archer in order to fulfill some greater goals for himself or his organization.
True but the Kazon do tend to deploy their ships in groups. Get enough of them together and they might present a honorable use of torpedos to some KDF captain. :P
Precisely. One measly freighter that couldn't even dent a BoP's shields. Once the System 5 Disruptors from the outpost were equipped, then it became a different story. A freighter is not regularly equipped to fight larger ships. They are usually only armed to defend against irregular forces such as privateers. They receive an escort if they expect to be attacked by dedicated "regular forces" raiders. The Kazon ships ALWAYS were effective against Voyager. There is strength in numbers which the Kazon usually had. When they didn't have enough ships in the area, then they would resort to hit and run tactics. The Kazon could afford to take the damage Voyager dished out. Voyager, how could not. The Kazon could afford a battle of attrition, or "Death by a thousand cuts" as the Chinese would say.
Precisely. One measly freighter that couldn't even dent a BoP's shields. Once the System 5 Disruptors from the outpost were equipped, then it became a different story. A freighter is not regularly equipped to fight larger ships. They are usually only armed to defend against irregular forces such as privateers. They receive an escort if they expect to be attacked by dedicated "regular forces" raiders. The Kazon ships ALWAYS were effective against Voyager. There is strength in numbers which the Kazon usually had. When they didn't have enough ships in the area, then they would resort to hit and run tactics. The Kazon could afford to take the damage Voyager dished out. Voyager, how could not. The Kazon could afford a battle of attrition, or "Death by a thousand cuts" as the Chinese would say.
Voyager was one intrepid class cut off from Starfleet as you point out death by a thousand cuts. It won't work though when we can move fleets to the Delta quadrant thanks to the dyson spheres. Heck I think the Kazon would of struggled against a bigger ship like the Enterprise or a Negh'var.
Plus I really doubt the Kazon have kept pace technology wise with the Alpha quadrant races since they seem to just try to steal other peoples technology rather than research their own.
Nope, that [at least by all appearances] was mainline. Daniels wouldn't be trying to argue for Archer's survival if the battle where the FED saved the galaxy wasn't necessary because Archer's multi-fold suicide plan worked. "To hell with the Federation, to hell with Earth" he could have said "if we stopped these galaxy destroying TRIBBLE NOW."
But he didn't because what we saw wasn't the alternative to destroying the expanse but the eventual return (a la Iconians, we should be very familiar to how this would play out) of the Sphere Builders. The expanse in the Enterprise era was only their first attempt, emboldened perhaps by their other schemes to futz with the timeline. Its destruction shouldn't be taken as an indication for the KDF not joining the FED (because after all what you can build once you can build again and that second attempt would probably require more than one measily NX class starship to thwart. Ergo the FED and the Enterprise J.)
Okay, let's use some math for a second.
The first expanse was 2,000 ly across. It took 1,000 years to create an expanse of that size.
Those are the facts. The expanse we saw in the alternate future, which is BTW listed as an alternate future on Mem Alpha as well, was 50,000 light years big.
If it took 1,000 years to build one 2,000 years big how do you explain they built on 50,000 ly across instantly without anyone noticing?
It's impossible.
It was only possible if it was the old expanse constantly growing from the 22nd century uninterrupted because it was established the anomalies interact with each other and the effect starts to accelerate over the course of centuries.
Also "Carpenter Street" established that Daniels did NOT know the outcome of the conflict because it takes time for the ripples in the timeline to affect him.
Okay, let's use some math for a second.
The first expanse was 2,000 ly across. It took 1,000 years to create an expanse of that size.
Those are the facts. The expanse we saw in the alternate future, which is BTW listed as an alternate future on Mem Alpha as well, was 50,000 light years big.
If it took 1,000 years to build one 2,000 years big how do you explain they built on 50,000 ly across instantly without anyone noticing?
It's impossible.
It was only possible if it was the old expanse constantly growing from the 22nd century uninterrupted because it was established the anomalies interact with each other and the effect starts to accelerate over the course of centuries.
Also "Carpenter Street" established that Daniels did NOT know the outcome of the conflict because it takes time for the ripples in the timeline to affect him.
It's also impossible to have built the first one without anyone noticing, frankly. Something 60 LY from Earth (calculated from the NX-01's top speed and stated travel time) that is 2,000 LY across would cover half the sky back on Earth. Future astronomers appear to be remarkably unobservant.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
It's also impossible to have built the first one without anyone noticing, frankly. Something 60 LY from Earth (calculated from the NX-01's top speed and stated travel time) that is 2,000 LY across would cover half the sky back on Earth. Future astronomers appear to be remarkably unobservant.
Well given the sphere builders started to build the thing in the 12th century, who in the future would not consider it a natural phenomenon?
And given it didn't fill half the (night) sky in any of the Trek episodes we saw from the time it existed we must assume it was not visible from a great distance away.
Oh and it's even more impossible that anyone in the region, especially Starfleet, would allow the Sphere Builders to make another one of those again a couple hundred years later given they know what to look for.
Voyager was one intrepid class cut off from Starfleet as you point out death by a thousand cuts. It won't work though when we can move fleets to the Delta quadrant thanks to the dyson spheres. Heck I think the Kazon would of struggled against a bigger ship like the Enterprise or a Negh'var.
Plus I really doubt the Kazon have kept pace technology wise with the Alpha quadrant races since they seem to just try to steal other peoples technology rather than research their own.
Again, numbers can overcome technology. Also, one does not need to invent technology independently to keep pace. It is quite often the case that one power who is lagging will often steal, then copy the newer technology. It is easier to duplicate rather than invent. Case in point: The Tu-4 which the Soviets stole, then copied from the B-29. More recent examples can be seen by Chinese "advances" in technology. Since alien species in Star Trek are simply carbon copies of certain aspects of humans, it would stand to reason that the Kazon would do the same.
Again, numbers can overcome technology. Also, one does not need to invent technology independently to keep pace. It is quite often the case that one power who is lagging will often steal, then copy the newer technology. It is easier to duplicate rather than invent. Case in point: The Tu-4 which the Soviets stole, then copied from the B-29. More recent examples can be seen by Chinese "advances" in technology. Since alien species in Star Trek are simply carbon copies of certain aspects of humans, it would stand to reason that the Kazon would do the same.
Or European, fire arms, rudders, compasses, cannons, modern mathematics, all taken form various Chinese, Indian and Arab sources
Again, numbers can overcome technology. Also, one does not need to invent technology independently to keep pace. It is quite often the case that one power who is lagging will often steal, then copy the newer technology. It is easier to duplicate rather than invent. Case in point: The Tu-4 which the Soviets stole, then copied from the B-29. More recent examples can be seen by Chinese "advances" in technology. Since alien species in Star Trek are simply carbon copies of certain aspects of humans, it would stand to reason that the Kazon would do the same.
Again the numbers thing would be irrelevant when we have the ability to move entire fleets of ships at will into the Delta quadrant. Assuming the Kazon have advanced any which is unlikely at best and they do happen to annoy the KDF what do you think is going to happen? They are not going to send a single ship.
Also just who exactly are they going to be stealing advanced technology from? As noted many times in the shows Voyager was by far the most advanced ship in that entire sector and they didn't exactly hang around to let anyone copy their ship.
There is also the little thing that the Kazon are not a unified race but roam in smaller tribes akin to street gangs, if one of the sects does happen to gain some advantage over another then they are not going to share it.
Again the numbers thing would be irrelevant when we have the ability to move entire fleets of ships at will into the Delta quadrant. Assuming the Kazon have advanced any which is unlikely at best and they do happen to annoy the KDF what do you think is going to happen? They are not going to send a single ship.
Also just who exactly are they going to be stealing advanced technology from? As noted many times in the shows Voyager was by far the most advanced ship in that entire sector and they didn't exactly hang around to let anyone copy their ship.
There is also the little thing that the Kazon are not a unified race but roam in smaller tribes akin to street gangs, if one of the sects does happen to gain some advantage over another then they are not going to share it.
Humanity only recently unified in star trek, Guainan is older than the federation, And they achieved much in 20,000 years.
The Klingon are "Unified" in so much as they have a standard ship design and over arcing culture. No Klink pacifist or who view war negatively. Even though prior to the Warrior casts cultural takeover Klinks were philosophically and culturally diverse.
The Orion's are the oldest space faring race in the contemporary alpha quadrant, they are not unified under a single flag. The Orion syndicate is the Orion people's mafia.
The Romulans and the Vulcans a definitely not unified.
Humanity only recently unified in star trek, Guainan is older than the federation, And they achieved much in 20,000 years.
The Klingon are "Unified" in so much as they have a standard ship design and over arcing culture. No Klink pacifist or who view war negatively. Even though prior to the Warrior casts cultural takeover Klinks were philosophically and culturally diverse.
The Orion's are the oldest space faring race in the contemporary alpha quadrant, they are not unified under a single flag. The Orion syndicate is the Orion people's mafia.
The Romulans and the Vulcans a definitely not unified.
Aren't the Gorn supposed to be the oldest space faring race?
Either way there is a big difference between the Klingons and the Kazon, the Klingons are unified in at least some way as the KDF is a thing, it is a highly organized and structured defence force comprising of Klingons from all houses.
The Kazon on the other hand have only apparently worked together once and that was when they kicked the Trabe off their Homeworld and seem to have no equivalent to the KDF (or Starfleet). Each sect maintains its own defences for their territory and trains their own people.
Who said the Kazon would join willingly? The KDF could pull a Gorn on the Kazon. The Kazon rebelled against the Trabe because they were treated poorly and have been struggling ever since then, under the Empires leadership they may do a LOT better.
Who said the Kazon would join willingly? The KDF could pull a Gorn on the Kazon. The Kazon rebelled against the Trabe because they were treated poorly and have been struggling ever since then, under the Empires leadership they may do a LOT better.
Actually I agree with you there, I think that the Kazon would thrive under the governorship of the KDF...though I am biased toward the Kazon for one reason.
Their ships, I love their ships and I don't know why, I just do. When that first Kazon ship appeared on screen I was like "SWEET!" When their bigger dreadnought ship appeared I nearly died from delight. Don't ask me why I just did.
I had a model of a Kazon raider that I had painted to perfection and I had it for years, until my son who was 1 yo at the time somehow got his hands on it...I blame my wife.
Actually I agree with you there, I think that the Kazon would thrive under the governorship of the KDF...though I am biased toward the Kazon for one reason.
Their ships, I love their ships and I don't know why, I just do. When that first Kazon ship appeared on screen I was like "SWEET!" When their bigger dreadnought ship appeared I nearly died from delight. Don't ask me why I just did.
I had a model of a Kazon raider that I had painted to perfection and I had it for years, until my son who was 1 yo at the time somehow got his hands on it...I blame my wife.
They have an impressive Star Wars look to them.
The writing on Voyage and Enterprise is what harmed the franchise not ship design.
I Liked the Hirogen ship design, though the Gelki Mission in Tau Dewa has traumatized me against the hirogen.
Seriously how much damage can hirogen ships absorb on Advanced difficulty!?
I haven't gone nere that system since I started plying on elite.
Borg? Undine? Captain Murica of the USS Bahia laughs at them, Hirogen? Murica has urgent business to attend to...else where.
The writing on Voyage and Enterprise is what harmed the franchise not ship design.
I Liked the Hirogen ship design, though the Gelki Mission in Tau Dewa has traumatized me against the hirogen.
Seriously how much damage can hirogen ships absorb on Advanced difficulty!?
I haven't gone nere that system since I started plying on elite.
Borg? Undine? Captain Murica of the USS Bahia laughs at them, Hirogen? Murica has urgent business to attend to...else where.
This is true, Trek ship designs have always been top notch, I love the NX class. I also had a model of a Kazon shuttle, though that one was broken because I liked to play with it.....I like Kazon ships....did I mention that?
Comments
The "Prime Directive" books are not set in the Star Trek universe, they're set in the "Star Fleet Universe". SFB stuff is not allowed to use the Star Trek name. There's a lengthy bit in the main PD rulebook on the subject. In the GURPS version it's page 183 "Publisher's Information" under "PD vs Trek". I presume the D20 version has it as well on a similar page.
It's good stuff, Slirdarians are pretty cool and I'd totally get the heavy Pistol the one on the Klingons D20 cover is holding:
http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g76/87276/87276_1124150687.jpg
but it's not even soft-canon.
The "Pocket Book" novels Cryptic is appearently allowed to reference to some degree actually state the reverse: subject species are only allowed as servants on KDF ship, not as warriors.
That's why the current situation in STO is so unusual.
They stole their ships and technology, much as they continue to do. The only factor in this is that the Delta Quad. tech where the Kazon are, is not as foreign as something developed in the Alpha/Beta/Gamma Quad, so fitting it to their ships is much easier. They aren't complete morons as many would argue, but a race that was the lowest of the low and have just started their lives as a warp capable species.
Yes I admit I really hate them, and think adding them as anything but target practice is a bad choice, but that's my personal opinion. No KDF does not need new races, nor does the Fed or Roms. What we need is more end game content, such as the Dyson Sphere, to keep people interested and not going back through the story arc.
If a new race is to be added, make it like with LoR, a new faction, something different, yet familiar. If you want to add Kazon, make a whole new story arc for them where you go through overthrowing the Trabe, fighting to aid your sect in gaining power, THEN forming an alliance with one of the Alpha Quad races like the Roms do. But don't make it like the Roms where 10 levels into the game you get to choose, make it so that you get to level 30-40, that way you HAD to prove your worth.
Not only would that lead to a new spin on the new peace between the Feds and KDF (mutual protection against the Kazon sects) but also something to keep long time players interested in the game instead of the constant grind for things they may or may not need. I know that having more than 3 toons with T5 rep (minus 8472CC) get's a little boring going out, doing rep runs, getting what ever my fleet needs, helping new players/toons get marks, etc etc.
A whole new racial story arc would be perfect to kick off the launch of the Delta Quad. Especially a race they we're forced to learn about through the first bit of Voyager, and hell being a part of the Kazon would be awesome if it were just that, Kazon. Not Kazon till level 10 then you choose alliance with Fed/KDF like with the Roms (don't have to), but a race that HAS a huge back story waiting to be explored!
Anyways, just my opinion which is just that, mine, hate on it if you want but honestly, it opens more avenues for PWE/Cryptic, than adding it in as a new Fed/KDF race.
But here's the thing: that doesn't excuse them.
"stupid is as stupid does" as Forrest Gump put it and they're judged based on that alone.
Tech level and intelligence are not connected. Otherwise we'd be constantly becoming more intelligent.
R.I.P
True, the Klingons might not even engage Kazon ships.. not very honorable to pummel puny (well large, but puny in powerscale) ships
They might see thier ships and actually ignore them... ooooh that's gonna burn.. Borg first call them worthless and then Klingons ignoring them as weak as well :P
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
And let me stop you right there. They do. With the leadup to STO the Klingon Defense Force underwent an important social change. They stopped being about just the klingons. With the addition of the Gorn, Naussicans, Letheans, and the Orions they started to form a collective of species to rival the Federation but with the one key difference of being formed from the opposite direction. It is an interesting fact in itself and if cryptic were mindful about it then they most certainly SHOULD NOT run screaming away from it because it doesn't line up with how the KDF was portraryed on TV.
All things change with time and its the most authentic thing imaginable to recognize this fact (which did after all serve as a pretty big theme of at least three ST series (TOS, TNG, and ENT) and three of the movies (Undiscovered Country, Generations, Insurrection.) If it isn't the point of this franchise, it's a BIG part of it.) Of course that change has to make sense but this is exactly what more species for the KDF does. On the one hand they have to stand up to other collectives (The Dominion, the Federation, and let's not forget the Borg) and there's only so much you can do with just one band of TRIBBLE especially when they haven't got much to fight with except attitudes and bad hair. It immediately highlights the Empire in Klingon Empire, and it might just lead to multi-species tendencies that could explain why the Klingons will eventually join the Federation (see. ENT). It all has to start somewhere and why not let it play out where 1) it already has some footing and 2) fans of the show can actually enjoy it (because you can be damned sure that evolving the KDF isn't going to happen any time soon in any other medium.)
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In the STO timeline the obviously didn't join the Federation otherwise they wouldn't still have their own Temporal investigation service in the 29th century.
Not enough eyes or legs, but speaking in power the two (vorlon or shadow) are the same really.
R.I.P
Nope, that [at least by all appearances] was mainline. Daniels wouldn't be trying to argue for Archer's survival if the battle where the FED saved the galaxy wasn't necessary because Archer's multi-fold suicide plan worked. "To hell with the Federation, to hell with Earth" he could have said "if we stopped these galaxy destroying TRIBBLE NOW."
But he didn't because what we saw wasn't the alternative to destroying the expanse but the eventual return (a la Iconians, we should be very familiar to how this would play out) of the Sphere Builders. The expanse in the Enterprise era was only their first attempt, emboldened perhaps by their other schemes to futz with the timeline. Its destruction shouldn't be taken as an indication for the KDF not joining the FED (because after all what you can build once you can build again and that second attempt would probably require more than one measily NX class starship to thwart. Ergo the FED and the Enterprise J.)
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It is quite likely considering they did exactly that to Ducats freighter in Ds9.
True but the Kazon do tend to deploy their ships in groups. Get enough of them together and they might present a honorable use of torpedos to some KDF captain. :P
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I'm sorry, but you're wrong on this. What was seen in the ENT episode was just one possible future outcome, that doesn't neccessarily mean it will happen. That event happening relies of everything from the moment that possible future was shown to Archer up untill the suposed event itself in the 26-th century to go smoothly and "as planned". The existence of the event could very much be changed by Picard turning left instead of right at a point in his life or Kirk shooting some species he wasn't suposed to shoot. Nothing guarantees that it has to happen.
Furthermore, as far as I can recollect from the dialogue atm - it was never explicitly said that the Klingons have become members of teh Federation, but it was said that 'an alliance' led by the Federation that even the Klingons are part of is fighting against the sphere builders. This doesn't sound to me like Klingons are Federation members, but rather reminds me of such alliance led by the Federation that even the Klingons and Romulans are part of, to fight the Dominion.
Besides, in STO terms it's quite obvious that the Klingons are not Federation members in the 29-th century if the 'captured' timeships are any indication.
Also worth pointing out is what some members of the community here have said before - noone guarantees that Daniels wasn't lying through his teeth to Archer in order to fulfill some greater goals for himself or his organization.
Precisely. One measly freighter that couldn't even dent a BoP's shields. Once the System 5 Disruptors from the outpost were equipped, then it became a different story. A freighter is not regularly equipped to fight larger ships. They are usually only armed to defend against irregular forces such as privateers. They receive an escort if they expect to be attacked by dedicated "regular forces" raiders. The Kazon ships ALWAYS were effective against Voyager. There is strength in numbers which the Kazon usually had. When they didn't have enough ships in the area, then they would resort to hit and run tactics. The Kazon could afford to take the damage Voyager dished out. Voyager, how could not. The Kazon could afford a battle of attrition, or "Death by a thousand cuts" as the Chinese would say.
Voyager was one intrepid class cut off from Starfleet as you point out death by a thousand cuts. It won't work though when we can move fleets to the Delta quadrant thanks to the dyson spheres. Heck I think the Kazon would of struggled against a bigger ship like the Enterprise or a Negh'var.
Plus I really doubt the Kazon have kept pace technology wise with the Alpha quadrant races since they seem to just try to steal other peoples technology rather than research their own.
Okay, let's use some math for a second.
The first expanse was 2,000 ly across. It took 1,000 years to create an expanse of that size.
Those are the facts. The expanse we saw in the alternate future, which is BTW listed as an alternate future on Mem Alpha as well, was 50,000 light years big.
If it took 1,000 years to build one 2,000 years big how do you explain they built on 50,000 ly across instantly without anyone noticing?
It's impossible.
It was only possible if it was the old expanse constantly growing from the 22nd century uninterrupted because it was established the anomalies interact with each other and the effect starts to accelerate over the course of centuries.
Also "Carpenter Street" established that Daniels did NOT know the outcome of the conflict because it takes time for the ripples in the timeline to affect him.
It's also impossible to have built the first one without anyone noticing, frankly. Something 60 LY from Earth (calculated from the NX-01's top speed and stated travel time) that is 2,000 LY across would cover half the sky back on Earth. Future astronomers appear to be remarkably unobservant.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Well given the sphere builders started to build the thing in the 12th century, who in the future would not consider it a natural phenomenon?
And given it didn't fill half the (night) sky in any of the Trek episodes we saw from the time it existed we must assume it was not visible from a great distance away.
Oh and it's even more impossible that anyone in the region, especially Starfleet, would allow the Sphere Builders to make another one of those again a couple hundred years later given they know what to look for.
R.I.P
Again, numbers can overcome technology. Also, one does not need to invent technology independently to keep pace. It is quite often the case that one power who is lagging will often steal, then copy the newer technology. It is easier to duplicate rather than invent. Case in point: The Tu-4 which the Soviets stole, then copied from the B-29. More recent examples can be seen by Chinese "advances" in technology. Since alien species in Star Trek are simply carbon copies of certain aspects of humans, it would stand to reason that the Kazon would do the same.
Or European, fire arms, rudders, compasses, cannons, modern mathematics, all taken form various Chinese, Indian and Arab sources
Again the numbers thing would be irrelevant when we have the ability to move entire fleets of ships at will into the Delta quadrant. Assuming the Kazon have advanced any which is unlikely at best and they do happen to annoy the KDF what do you think is going to happen? They are not going to send a single ship.
Also just who exactly are they going to be stealing advanced technology from? As noted many times in the shows Voyager was by far the most advanced ship in that entire sector and they didn't exactly hang around to let anyone copy their ship.
There is also the little thing that the Kazon are not a unified race but roam in smaller tribes akin to street gangs, if one of the sects does happen to gain some advantage over another then they are not going to share it.
Humanity only recently unified in star trek, Guainan is older than the federation, And they achieved much in 20,000 years.
The Klingon are "Unified" in so much as they have a standard ship design and over arcing culture. No Klink pacifist or who view war negatively. Even though prior to the Warrior casts cultural takeover Klinks were philosophically and culturally diverse.
The Orion's are the oldest space faring race in the contemporary alpha quadrant, they are not unified under a single flag. The Orion syndicate is the Orion people's mafia.
The Romulans and the Vulcans a definitely not unified.
Aren't the Gorn supposed to be the oldest space faring race?
Either way there is a big difference between the Klingons and the Kazon, the Klingons are unified in at least some way as the KDF is a thing, it is a highly organized and structured defence force comprising of Klingons from all houses.
The Kazon on the other hand have only apparently worked together once and that was when they kicked the Trabe off their Homeworld and seem to have no equivalent to the KDF (or Starfleet). Each sect maintains its own defences for their territory and trains their own people.
Actually I agree with you there, I think that the Kazon would thrive under the governorship of the KDF...though I am biased toward the Kazon for one reason.
Their ships, I love their ships and I don't know why, I just do. When that first Kazon ship appeared on screen I was like "SWEET!" When their bigger dreadnought ship appeared I nearly died from delight. Don't ask me why I just did.
I had a model of a Kazon raider that I had painted to perfection and I had it for years, until my son who was 1 yo at the time somehow got his hands on it...I blame my wife.
They have an impressive Star Wars look to them.
The writing on Voyage and Enterprise is what harmed the franchise not ship design.
I Liked the Hirogen ship design, though the Gelki Mission in Tau Dewa has traumatized me against the hirogen.
Seriously how much damage can hirogen ships absorb on Advanced difficulty!?
I haven't gone nere that system since I started plying on elite.
Borg? Undine? Captain Murica of the USS Bahia laughs at them, Hirogen? Murica has urgent business to attend to...else where.
This is true, Trek ship designs have always been top notch, I love the NX class. I also had a model of a Kazon shuttle, though that one was broken because I liked to play with it.....I like Kazon ships....did I mention that?