After reading through the thread I feel I must now formally apologize for getting us all into this mess. When I first started flying my FPE beam-scort ("Sonic Squirrel"), I did so in response to all of the vape attacks being visited upon my hapless FAHCR ("Mama Squirrel"). My goal was to translate my very effective cruiser build to a smaller, nimbler platform. And, for the most part, I succeeded - this despite the lack of viable A2B support on the original FPE.
But it wasn't until I moved my beams to the Hunter escort - and implemented my popular hybrid A2B/A2D build - that the damn broke. After successfully dueling a variety of veteran escort jockeys (and popping quite a few of them), the realization of what I had created began to set-in. And thus began the flood of copycat builds - first on the Hunter (Zero, I'm looking at you), and later on the Nicor (not my fault, honest).
Now, Ker'rat and the queues are awash in beam-scorts flitting to and fro while generating anemic damage (not everyone knows how to build and/or fly one correctly) and generally annoying the PvP elites. I might have called such a development "glorious" had I not, myself, abandoned the beam-scort play style altogether.
It's true. In a fitting bit of irony, this beam-scort pioneer has forsaken his original build in favor of a traditional cannons/turrets/dbb combo.
Why, you might ask? Because it's better. Not only am I more effective 1v1, I'm also more of an asset in a team setting since, unlike most beam-scorts, I can usually KILL something with direct fire!
So, there you have it. I apologize, from the bottom of my heart, for unleashing this misery upon the PvP community. :P
RCK
Yes you were one of the main people getting others to use it, at least in Kerrat, good to see you are still trying other builds. Your beamscort was more dangerous then all the others I see now which is why I am saying they are a waste of time, but even yours wasn't as dangerous as your new builds. Hopefully some take follow your example and move on lol.
I am seeing a very disturbing trend lately, mostly in PVP but sometimes in PVE and its very lame. People using beams on ships that can equip DHC and have the turn to use it like escorts and destroyers. It normally isn't very effective, but very annoying and is used to troll by people that are hard to kill but not doing much damage. It sucks having somone on your team doing this and wasting a spot, and it is frustrating being trolled by people doing this and zooming around full speed spamming FAW. I think Escorts and destroyers should be restricted from equipping 250 degree beam arrays, the only exemptions should be special beams that are part of sets like the Experimental Romulan beam. This will make PVP much more fun as it will force dogfighting to happen again like it used to and prevent your team from getting underpowered teammates.
Yup, cuz cryptic messed up on bfaw/dem3/eptw3 weapon overcap... etc...
In any given pvp event, a cruiser can out dps any DHC escort... I take notice of who is using beams with the above options and they out DPS my all cannon escort 2:1 according to the stats window after the game. I have made my weapons as strong as they can be and still can't come close.
We tried to tell them this long ago-- even after they were trying to fix bfaw, but they think they know better than we do.
Not to mention... a beamscort is a lazy captain.. it takes more skills to aim your ship with your cannons than with beams and spacebar pwn. I would agree that most beamscorts do not equip eptw3, but I have seen some who have in pvp and they are just as deadly as a cruiser. They have probably 1.5:1 ratio at damage.. which again proves that the combo I specified above is the problem... especially when used with a2b and tech doffs.. they pretty much can have almost 100% uptime whereas a classic cannon scort most likely cannot.
Succinctly, a beamscort can outdamage any all cannon ship. I was actually thinking about switching just because I want to deal out the foolishness for a change.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Yup, cuz cryptic messed up on bfaw/dem3/eptw3 weapon overcap... etc...
In any given pvp event, a cruiser can out dps any DHC escort... I take notice of who is using beams with the above options and they out DPS my all cannon escort 2:1, and I have made my weapons as strong as they can be.
We tried to tell them this long ago-- even after they were trying to fix bfaw, but they think they know better than we do.
Beam builds may out dps any cannon build but do they get kills? Whenever I have beam boats in my team, I have a lot more kills than those guys cuz they do not have spike.
Bring 4-5 faw ships into arena and you're in big trouble if you don't have any counters. But a single beam ship is a joke in most cases...
I'm trying to figure out why people keep saying beam builds don't have spike and cannons do ?
Cannons are NOT spike weapons... they have ZERO spike skills.
Rapid fire is a damage over time skill. Its not anything closet to spike.
The only energy spike skill in the game is BEAM overload... and as the name suggests its a BEAM skill.
If you run a cannon build with a DBB for spike... can you really call it a cannon spike build anymore ?
Is it not a cannon / beam hybrid... where cannons provide the pressure and beams provide the spike.
Not every pure Beam build uses FAW.... faw is a goofy skill a terrible mechanic and an MMO abomination.
Beams in STO however have some major advantages over cannons... They have better damage fall off numbers... they are instant hit... They are more power efficant. Ect.
For an escort with beams...
- ONE drop FAW...faw is stupid and as most people suggest its true it is mostly wasted DPS flung all over and useless, unless your team has a bunch of other pressure (IE more FAW boats) its not really doing anything.
- TWO Stop running all Single arrays... on an escort DBB in front and Single arrays in rear... what this means is You will NOT be broadsideing. There is no need in an escort to try get 7 beams on target... Stick with 2-3 DBB in front and 3 Singles in back.... use the ships mobility to rock the plane of the weapon arcs... this way Engaging rear and then forward arcs independently. You will notice when you break arc on either the weapon power is INSTANTLY returned. (You can laugh about a beam escort not running EPTW if you like when you see me but you won't be laughing when you realize my beams are always hitting at 125 because i rock the arcs)...
By using the arc rock... what you are doing is CONTROLLING your beams. If I want to overload someone... I don't wait for a beam cycle to end... I can load it ... break an arc plane and engage it INSTANTLY. (And always at 125 power no woops half power overloads because my turrets just cycled... or having to micro manage cannon weapon fire with multiple fire keys).
In the current meta... even with the rep changes... people that are buffed are NOT going to die to cannon fire... or standard beam fire... its all about keeping the pressure on until you can spike... and PvP spike in STO is 90% of the time coming from a beam overload... and 10% of the time coming from a Torpedo HY/Spread.
What I run right now on my beam scort is 3 DBB + 1 Torp / 3 arrays I use Overload / HY / DEM 1... I Rock the arc plain with DEM and its no joke... 125 power DEM hits back and forth when I kill the beam cycles over and over back and forth. When its time to end someone (as in there buffs are at a low)... I rock back to my DBB arc and Overload + HY... and its the EXACT same killing spike that you see out of a cannon escort... only thing different is for pressure I am using the beams instead of the cannons... which allows me to run HYs/Overloads/Patterns... and only have to slot one Tac officer, allowing me to run more CC and Survival.
Anyway thats my long winded answer as to why beams on an escort can be great...FAW yes faw is stupid on an escort.
The only energy spike skill in the game is BEAM overload... and as the name suggests its a BEAM skill.
absolutely correct.. everyone needs to quit saying that an all cannon build is an insta-pop build... maybe for the first couple of seasons it was.. but that hasn't been the case for a long long time.
Beams have all the cool stuff. Hell, most of the tier1 tactical skills ARE for beams wasting up all the space and cluttering up actual useful tac abilities. cannons doesn't get any love until lt. level.
But despite all of that... beams do, in fact, out DPS escorts with certain configurations that are difficult to put on an many escorts except for a couple. it is proven at the end of every pvp match when you look at damage. and it takes no skill to aim a beam when you are zipping across the map.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
My fault, I thought it's clear I was comparing FAW builds vs DBB/Cannon builds...
Anyway, since this is the PvP forum I can understand why ppl say faw on an escort is stupid. But I have tested the new Fleet Patrol in PvE with a2b & faw and the result is an amazing pressure dmg (which is everything that actually counts in PvE)! I even out dps'ed some Scimitars - and it wasn't even close
Yup, cuz cryptic messed up on bfaw/dem3/eptw3 weapon overcap... etc...
In any given pvp event, a cruiser can out dps any DHC escort... I take notice of who is using beams with the above options and they out DPS my all cannon escort 2:1 according to the stats window after the game. I have made my weapons as strong as they can be and still can't come close.
We tried to tell them this long ago-- even after they were trying to fix bfaw, but they think they know better than we do.
Not to mention... a beamscort is a lazy captain.. it takes more skills to aim your ship with your cannons than with beams and spacebar pwn. I would agree that most beamscorts do not equip eptw3, but I have seen some who have in pvp and they are just as deadly as a cruiser. They have probably 1.5:1 ratio at damage.. which again proves that the combo I specified above is the problem... especially when used with a2b and tech doffs.. they pretty much can have almost 100% uptime whereas a classic cannon scort most likely cannot.
Succinctly, a beamscort can outdamage any all cannon ship. I was actually thinking about switching just because I want to deal out the foolishness for a change.
what has the most dps and what blows up the scoreboard most is not as important as what kills best. for DPS there is constant counter HPS undoing it. time, or how short a window you can squeeze damage into, is whats most important when all other factors cancel each other out.
the pendulum is about to swing away from beam array FAW builds anyway, or it will if everyone else figures out the things i have.
CRF is definitely BURST and people here call that spike because its compressed into a small period of time.
Your rant is wasted on pedantry. I score 4/10. Next.
10s duration skills are by definition NOT spike. There is nothing spike about Rapid fire. DHC themselves are spiky weapon because they have slow firing cycles with front loaded dmg numbers... that doesn't mean rapid fire however is a spike skill. It is a duration dmg increase skill on a weapon that does have some spike mechanics tied to it.
CRF is definitely BURST and people here call that spike because its compressed into a small period of time.
Your rant is wasted on pedantry. I score 4/10. Next.
Really? Well I have used all cannon builds since day 1, just because I only fly a b'rel, JHAS, or fleet defiant, and the only insta-pops I have been able to do with all cannon builds in years have been against inexperienced players. CRF has not kept up with the power creep, and if you think it has, then why don't you try insta-popping a veteran player with all cannons and CRF and paste back your results.
Beam effectiveness is the only energy weapon to have been given cryptic's love in recent past. Cannons have not changed since day 1, nor have any of the skills except for the nerfs..... again all due to fed cruiser captain tears.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
What I run right now on my beam scort is 3 DBB + 1 Torp / 3 arrays I use Overload / HY / DEM 1... I Rock the arc plain with DEM and its no joke... 125 power DEM hits back and forth when I kill the beam cycles over and over back and forth. When its time to end someone (as in there buffs are at a low)... I rock back to my DBB arc and Overload + HY... and its the EXACT same killing spike that you see out of a cannon escort... only thing different is for pressure I am using the beams instead of the cannons... which allows me to run HYs/Overloads/Patterns... and only have to slot one Tac officer, allowing me to run more CC and Survival.
Anyway thats my long winded answer as to why beams on an escort can be great...FAW yes faw is stupid on an escort.
interesting, im on a similar path lately myself. season 9 might just cause the greatest meta shift ever. me though, im stacking DBB with FAW, and torp spread 3 on my new favorite torpedo. why not BO instead? because, after all this time, i'm finding the constant insta hitting of 3 or 4 DBB, if they are enough to blow down a facing, keep a facing down much better then DHCs do. for them its 1 cycle then a 2 second gap in fireing, array and DC fire is just a bunch of pinpricks that cant out damage distribution, but DBB do it just abruptly and just strong enough to open and keep open shield holes, increasing the chances torps get to work. there's the added bonus that you can do this, and deal 100% potential damage to 2 different player targets. BO+ plus the new best HY torp sounds great, but have you vaped 2 people at once with that build?:P i have about once a match with mine. my norgh is just ever so good at it too, with flanking and that higher ambush damage, boy does it pop things now. don't forget to run the voth 3 part set so your photon projectile can have 10% higher crit and stuff
Really? Well I have used all cannon builds since day 1, just because I only fly a b'rel, JHAS, or fleet defiant, and the only insta-pops I have been able to do with all cannon builds in years have been against inexperienced players. CRF has not kept up with the power creep, and if you think it has, then why don't you try insta-popping a veteran player with all cannons and CRF and paste back your results.
Beam effectiveness is the only energy weapon to have been given cryptic's love in recent past. Cannons have not changed since day 1, nor have any of the skills except for the nerfs..... again all due to fed cruiser captain tears.
Just out of curiosity: If "CRF has not kept up with the power creep", why are you still using it?
I use 3 AP DBB and a grav torp up front, with the cutting beam, omni ap beam and wide angle quantum aft on all my escorts.
Cannons are great for spike damage, but for more sustained damage, you really can't beat 3 DBB and a torp
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
2 People at once... no... 2 people in a short time span though.
I detailed my build because I think it shows the silly thinking of some in the thread. Beams are not an issue on an escort... they have advantages which you can exploit in an escort. I talk about my plain rocking because I don't see many people doing it... but does what you want it to do in an escort. That is heavy SINGLE target pressure. I know it doesn't seem right to say 3 single arrays at a time or 3 DBB at a time is applying anything close to DHC spam... but it does. You don't have to be 2k on someones butt... and to be honest turrets suck hard so mostly in a Cannon build all you have on target are 3 DHC anyway.
It used to be that when you broke arc on a beam weapon it kept firing through the cycle... which was interesting in its own way. At some point Cryptic changed it so that when you broke arc the cycle insta stops and refunds all weapon power. THIS mechanic is super usable on an escort that can move fast enough to rock the plain back and forth. What I have been doing is letting my DBB start... when the cycle hits twice at 2s... I rock back and engage the arrays in back and do that back and forth... It IS less pressure then what would come out of a full cruiser broadside... It means though that at any time I can hit someone EXACTLY when I want with an overload... no windup animations or anything else... break the arc back and boom overload. It feels like back in the old days of season 1-2 when we used to time Torps to ho hit hull just when we would have shields down. lol ZAP green ball of death... respawn.
Try it out DDIS see if I am crazy.... but get your speed / turn up as high as you can. And try it out. It seems pretty effective so far in my testing... and its in fact pretty darn fun. I swear a few times I have got a good plain arc on a cruiser and watched them melt from the DEM strikes.
Just out of curiosity: If "CRF has not kept up with the power creep", why are you still using it?
however, I have been thinking of doing an all cannon loadout, because on a b'rel, I can have DEM3, ETPW. I will be giving up survivability, of course, but I would imagine the combo of those 2 plus DHCs (and maybe some reps that penetrate to hull) might give the escort back it's edge. Of course, there are only a few ships that have the right boff slots to do this, and the b'rel is one of them.
I refuse to vape with BO though.... usually classless kills. Yes, I have succumb to the vaper that is in a fight for 5 seconds and then ICC's out of the combat zone, but can't hang with the big boys for very long.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
2 People at once... no... 2 people in a short time span though.
I detailed my build because I think it shows the silly thinking of some in the thread. Beams are not an issue on an escort... they have advantages which you can exploit in an escort. I talk about my plain rocking because I don't see many people doing it... but does what you want it to do in an escort. That is heavy SINGLE target pressure. I know it doesn't seem right to say 3 single arrays at a time or 3 DBB at a time is applying anything close to DHC spam... but it does. You don't have to be 2k on someones butt... and to be honest turrets suck hard so mostly in a Cannon build all you have on target are 3 DHC anyway.
It used to be that when you broke arc on a beam weapon it kept firing through the cycle... which was interesting in its own way. At some point Cryptic changed it so that when you broke arc the cycle insta stops and refunds all weapon power. THIS mechanic is super usable on an escort that can move fast enough to rock the plain back and forth. What I have been doing is letting my DBB start... when the cycle hits twice at 2s... I rock back and engage the arrays in back and do that back and forth... It IS less pressure then what would come out of a full cruiser broadside... It means though that at any time I can hit someone EXACTLY when I want with an overload... no windup animations or anything else... break the arc back and boom overload. It feels like back in the old days of season 1-2 when we used to time Torps to ho hit hull just when we would have shields down. lol ZAP green ball of death... respawn.
Try it out DDIS see if I am crazy.... but get your speed / turn up as high as you can. And try it out. It seems pretty effective so far in my testing... and its in fact pretty darn fun. I swear a few times I have got a good plain arc on a cruiser and watched them melt from the DEM strikes.
i like spread because it best takes full advantage of the knetic shearing and applies the most procs with the bio torp. often i might not kill someone in the attack run, but then i suddenly watch them spontaneously combust a few seconds later from all the shearing and 5 or so radiation procs of at least 1000 damage each. that and, 14 torpedoes hitting hull is just staggering, especially when at least half of them crit
this was vs an boss-ish NPC, but it got waked in about a second. whats in the log is every piece of data having to do with the battle, the 4 DBB didn't even get their 5th FAW shot off before the torps stacked pure knetic death
and this is what kinetic shearing can do when torps hit hull
i think its pretty frickin funny that the both of us adopted a new play style right at the same time in reaction to this torp, the meta is putty in our hands lol. season 9 has been odd, the last ship i ever thought i would fly again was the patrol, and the last thing i thought was that a energy/torp rainbow build would BTFO everything else
I'm trying to figure out why people keep saying beam builds don't have spike and cannons do ?
Cannons are NOT spike weapons... they have ZERO spike skills.
Rapid fire is a damage over time skill. Its not anything closet to spike.
.
DHC aren't spike like BO, but they are much more bursty then beams and can be focused on a single target using rapid fire, while beams have to fire unbuffed to go on a single target. We still regularly run DHC bugs in premades, and once the target has been debuffed by sci, the DHC burst targets down very quickly, I often see strings of multiple crits from 10k-20k. We haven't been able to fight too many other premades this past month or so, but when we do we don't lose when using DHC bugs. DHC is still very much viable both in premades and in pugging can still be viable as long as you coordinate with a sci or look for targets of opportunity.
Anyway I give you credit that you at least aren't using 7 beam arrays and zooming around broadsiding and are trying something different that can work good, but the vast majority of beamscort users are not doing that and are useless and wasting their time and their opponents time.
Really? Well I have used all cannon builds since day 1, just because I only fly a b'rel, JHAS, or fleet defiant, and the only insta-pops I have been able to do with all cannon builds in years have been against inexperienced players. CRF has not kept up with the power creep, and if you think it has, then why don't you try insta-popping a veteran player with all cannons and CRF and paste back your results.
Eh, CRF works wonderfully for killing anybody who is already engaged with another target, for lots of reasons.
i like spread because it best takes full advantage of the knetic shearing and applies the most procs with the bio torp. often i might not kill someone in the attack run, but then i suddenly watch them spontaneously combust a few seconds later from all the shearing and 5 or so radiation procs of at least 1000 damage each. that and, 14 torpedoes hitting hull is just staggering, especially when at least half of them crit
this was vs an boss-ish NPC, but it got waked in about a second. whats in the log is every piece of data having to do with the battle, the 4 DBB didn't even get their 5th FAW shot off before the torps stacked pure knetic death
and this is what kinetic shearing can do when torps hit hull
i think its pretty frickin funny that the both of us adopted a new play style right at the same time in reaction to this torp, the meta is putty in our hands lol. season 9 has been odd, the last ship i ever thought i would fly again was the patrol, and the last thing i thought was that a energy/torp rainbow build would BTFO everything else
oooooh like your powertray config.. never thought of organizing mine vertically instead of horizontally... think I might try it! hate writing keybind files though.. blech... i.e. preserving execute order by writing them forwards and then writing them backwards lol
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
i like spread because it best takes full advantage of the knetic shearing and applies the most procs with the bio torp.
The enhanced bio torp lists no proc for the spread modes, only for normal and high-yield. Same for the disruptor photon, the new reward from Mind Game. I havent checked the infocard on any of the other new ones. Would be nice if you could confirm that its actually working.
I like the new one in with my BO/HY combo. If I get a shield face down with BO the HY already en route is going to leave them dead or with a sliver. Fast and non-targetable, good combination.
Don't get me wrong guys I have plenty of cannon ships and I won't ever change that... cannons are fun and they are great... but you have to play to them. You have to get closer then 3k all the time... You have to dedicate higher level weapon skills to buff there dmg.
I just don't like the idea that beams shouldn't be allowed on escorts... because the average moron you find in a pug match has no idea what they are doing... or there knowledge doesn't exceed PvE so they bring there PvE beam builds to the match.
Beams are Very viable on an escort... sure most people default to faw on them... I have posted though explaining why I feel in many ways Unbuffed beams are = to buffed cannons. Its because of the meta where the real killing happens with spike.
Yes in a premade people will default cannon scort... but as you have said marc they don't work there with out heavy sci support. Meaning properly timed nukes and cc. With out that no DHC escorts will NOT kill anything in a premade match. There is a reason why no premade runs with out 2 sci min.
I have no doubt a beam/torp escort setup to do SINGLE target dmg... would be just as effective in a premade. Because the sci are the ones doing 90% of the work.
I don't mean to offend anyone saying this... and I think I'm known well enough as a cannon escort guy to say this. We premade with cannon escorts because its EASIER. Its easier in the way that the dmg ramp skill (Rapid Fire) is a 10S duration which makes timing DHC "Spike" with subnukes pretty hard to F up. (I know at one time I tried to time sub nukes with torp boat spike in a premade setting and it was glorious and super effective 50% of the time... that was the issue the timing window was so small it was very hard to pull off reliably... in that regard DHC are superior they are more forgiving of timing)
The enhanced bio torp lists no proc for the spread modes, only for normal and high-yield. Same for the disruptor photon, the new reward from Mind Game. I havent checked the infocard on any of the other new ones. Would be nice if you could confirm that its actually working.
I like the new one in with my BO/HY combo. If I get a shield face down with BO the HY already en route is going to leave them dead or with a sliver. Fast and non-targetable, good combination.
There's several issues with the E-Bio, both with how it is working and with the tooltips/info for it. Course, folks aren't happy that I keep calling what's going on with the E-Bio a bug - but when no other torps compares to it in the least - when it does not work anything like any other torp...one can't delude oneself that there's not something wrong there.
oooooh like your powertray config.. never thought of organizing mine vertically instead of horizontally... think I might try it! hate writing keybind files though.. blech... i.e. preserving execute order by writing them forwards and then writing them backwards lol
ya, i like my tray setup and and ui organization a LOT. the boff powers are super intuitively grouped for whenever i click, but for keybinds i fill up rows 4 through 8 with various types of macros. i don't have any execute whole row binds on the first visible 3. hilbert calls this 'tray 7' in his guide, same idea.
i also got my team there in the corner, so i can click on them and then only move the mouse a tiny bit to click a heal. cause i don't have team mate selecting foot pedals...
here you can see i have my target and his buff's right above were mine are displayed, the last bit of important UI organization. everything relevant to each other is grouped together as close as possible
The enhanced bio torp lists no proc for the spread modes, only for normal and high-yield. Same for the disruptor photon, the new reward from Mind Game. I havent checked the infocard on any of the other new ones. Would be nice if you could confirm that its actually working.
I like the new one in with my BO/HY combo. If I get a shield face down with BO the HY already en route is going to leave them dead or with a sliver. Fast and non-targetable, good combination.
well i just posted pictures showing the radiation proc in action in response to spread hits, so im gunna call that a tool tip oversight
If the borg could cry nerf they would. Sheering + Quantum rom torp boat is PvE lulz mode... its crazyer then tric mines ever where and its also higher dps then FAW boating.
Count the Sheering between my tykens ticks..... thats a 22k Dot. lol
If the borg could cry nerf they would. Sheering + Quantum rom torp boat is PvE lulz mode... its crazyer then tric mines ever where and its also higher dps then FAW boating.
Count the Sheering between my tykens ticks..... thats a 22k Dot. lol
2 examples in near laboratory conditions, showing off 2 things at thier ultimate extremes lol. those are some crazy numbers there though. but even in pvp, a bunch of 100 to 500 dots stacked up is a help.
this is the sort of thing ive wanted for the longest time, just running energy weapons being a self nerf. befor running any torps was a self nerf.
2 examples in near laboratory conditions, showing off 2 things at thier ultimate extremes lol. those are some crazy numbers there though. but even in pvp, a bunch of 100 to 500 dots stacked up is a help.
this is the sort of thing ive wanted for the longest time, just running energy weapons being a self nerf. befor running any torps was a self nerf.
I agree.. I am loving sheering. It has made torps not just an option in PvP but imo almost needed. The dots are a great way to make that one torp that slips through matter... and a way to make sure your rewarded for landing good hits on hull. Even just throwing them around against shields at least one way to look at it is the hull pen got a 40% buff.
So the beam / cannon thing for me comes down to what makes more sense for me....
Beams+Cannons+Torps (Highest burst option... but expensive in terms of boffs and doffs)
Beams+Torps (Second Highest burst... Most economical boff and doff setup)
Cannons+Torps (Lowest burst... Most expensive doff / boff setup)
Torp Boat (I won't go into that one... I PvP in these to... my new PvE hero ship though lol)
That is where I am looking at possible builds right now... torps are just to good to not run... they draw hazards they kill people that manage to get shields back up... they end people that can't keep a shield ip. Cannons + Torp isn't high burst and its not that efficant to build.
So ya for the most part that is why I am big on beams right now... finding ways to make them work and support my torp dmg.
Comments
Yes you were one of the main people getting others to use it, at least in Kerrat, good to see you are still trying other builds. Your beamscort was more dangerous then all the others I see now which is why I am saying they are a waste of time, but even yours wasn't as dangerous as your new builds. Hopefully some take follow your example and move on lol.
Yup, cuz cryptic messed up on bfaw/dem3/eptw3 weapon overcap... etc...
In any given pvp event, a cruiser can out dps any DHC escort... I take notice of who is using beams with the above options and they out DPS my all cannon escort 2:1 according to the stats window after the game. I have made my weapons as strong as they can be and still can't come close.
We tried to tell them this long ago-- even after they were trying to fix bfaw, but they think they know better than we do.
Not to mention... a beamscort is a lazy captain.. it takes more skills to aim your ship with your cannons than with beams and spacebar pwn. I would agree that most beamscorts do not equip eptw3, but I have seen some who have in pvp and they are just as deadly as a cruiser. They have probably 1.5:1 ratio at damage.. which again proves that the combo I specified above is the problem... especially when used with a2b and tech doffs.. they pretty much can have almost 100% uptime whereas a classic cannon scort most likely cannot.
Succinctly, a beamscort can outdamage any all cannon ship. I was actually thinking about switching just because I want to deal out the foolishness for a change.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Beam builds may out dps any cannon build but do they get kills? Whenever I have beam boats in my team, I have a lot more kills than those guys cuz they do not have spike.
Bring 4-5 faw ships into arena and you're in big trouble if you don't have any counters. But a single beam ship is a joke in most cases...
Cannons are NOT spike weapons... they have ZERO spike skills.
Rapid fire is a damage over time skill. Its not anything closet to spike.
The only energy spike skill in the game is BEAM overload... and as the name suggests its a BEAM skill.
If you run a cannon build with a DBB for spike... can you really call it a cannon spike build anymore ?
Is it not a cannon / beam hybrid... where cannons provide the pressure and beams provide the spike.
Not every pure Beam build uses FAW.... faw is a goofy skill a terrible mechanic and an MMO abomination.
Beams in STO however have some major advantages over cannons... They have better damage fall off numbers... they are instant hit... They are more power efficant. Ect.
For an escort with beams...
- ONE drop FAW...faw is stupid and as most people suggest its true it is mostly wasted DPS flung all over and useless, unless your team has a bunch of other pressure (IE more FAW boats) its not really doing anything.
- TWO Stop running all Single arrays... on an escort DBB in front and Single arrays in rear... what this means is You will NOT be broadsideing. There is no need in an escort to try get 7 beams on target... Stick with 2-3 DBB in front and 3 Singles in back.... use the ships mobility to rock the plane of the weapon arcs... this way Engaging rear and then forward arcs independently. You will notice when you break arc on either the weapon power is INSTANTLY returned. (You can laugh about a beam escort not running EPTW if you like when you see me but you won't be laughing when you realize my beams are always hitting at 125 because i rock the arcs)...
By using the arc rock... what you are doing is CONTROLLING your beams. If I want to overload someone... I don't wait for a beam cycle to end... I can load it ... break an arc plane and engage it INSTANTLY. (And always at 125 power no woops half power overloads because my turrets just cycled... or having to micro manage cannon weapon fire with multiple fire keys).
In the current meta... even with the rep changes... people that are buffed are NOT going to die to cannon fire... or standard beam fire... its all about keeping the pressure on until you can spike... and PvP spike in STO is 90% of the time coming from a beam overload... and 10% of the time coming from a Torpedo HY/Spread.
What I run right now on my beam scort is 3 DBB + 1 Torp / 3 arrays I use Overload / HY / DEM 1... I Rock the arc plain with DEM and its no joke... 125 power DEM hits back and forth when I kill the beam cycles over and over back and forth. When its time to end someone (as in there buffs are at a low)... I rock back to my DBB arc and Overload + HY... and its the EXACT same killing spike that you see out of a cannon escort... only thing different is for pressure I am using the beams instead of the cannons... which allows me to run HYs/Overloads/Patterns... and only have to slot one Tac officer, allowing me to run more CC and Survival.
Anyway thats my long winded answer as to why beams on an escort can be great...FAW yes faw is stupid on an escort.
absolutely correct.. everyone needs to quit saying that an all cannon build is an insta-pop build... maybe for the first couple of seasons it was.. but that hasn't been the case for a long long time.
Beams have all the cool stuff. Hell, most of the tier1 tactical skills ARE for beams wasting up all the space and cluttering up actual useful tac abilities. cannons doesn't get any love until lt. level.
But despite all of that... beams do, in fact, out DPS escorts with certain configurations that are difficult to put on an many escorts except for a couple. it is proven at the end of every pvp match when you look at damage. and it takes no skill to aim a beam when you are zipping across the map.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Anyway, since this is the PvP forum I can understand why ppl say faw on an escort is stupid. But I have tested the new Fleet Patrol in PvE with a2b & faw and the result is an amazing pressure dmg (which is everything that actually counts in PvE)! I even out dps'ed some Scimitars - and it wasn't even close
Your rant is wasted on pedantry. I score 4/10. Next.
what has the most dps and what blows up the scoreboard most is not as important as what kills best. for DPS there is constant counter HPS undoing it. time, or how short a window you can squeeze damage into, is whats most important when all other factors cancel each other out.
the pendulum is about to swing away from beam array FAW builds anyway, or it will if everyone else figures out the things i have.
10s duration skills are by definition NOT spike. There is nothing spike about Rapid fire. DHC themselves are spiky weapon because they have slow firing cycles with front loaded dmg numbers... that doesn't mean rapid fire however is a spike skill. It is a duration dmg increase skill on a weapon that does have some spike mechanics tied to it.
Really? Well I have used all cannon builds since day 1, just because I only fly a b'rel, JHAS, or fleet defiant, and the only insta-pops I have been able to do with all cannon builds in years have been against inexperienced players. CRF has not kept up with the power creep, and if you think it has, then why don't you try insta-popping a veteran player with all cannons and CRF and paste back your results.
Beam effectiveness is the only energy weapon to have been given cryptic's love in recent past. Cannons have not changed since day 1, nor have any of the skills except for the nerfs..... again all due to fed cruiser captain tears.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
interesting, im on a similar path lately myself. season 9 might just cause the greatest meta shift ever. me though, im stacking DBB with FAW, and torp spread 3 on my new favorite torpedo. why not BO instead? because, after all this time, i'm finding the constant insta hitting of 3 or 4 DBB, if they are enough to blow down a facing, keep a facing down much better then DHCs do. for them its 1 cycle then a 2 second gap in fireing, array and DC fire is just a bunch of pinpricks that cant out damage distribution, but DBB do it just abruptly and just strong enough to open and keep open shield holes, increasing the chances torps get to work. there's the added bonus that you can do this, and deal 100% potential damage to 2 different player targets. BO+ plus the new best HY torp sounds great, but have you vaped 2 people at once with that build?:P i have about once a match with mine. my norgh is just ever so good at it too, with flanking and that higher ambush damage, boy does it pop things now. don't forget to run the voth 3 part set so your photon projectile can have 10% higher crit and stuff
Just out of curiosity: If "CRF has not kept up with the power creep", why are you still using it?
Cannons are great for spike damage, but for more sustained damage, you really can't beat 3 DBB and a torp
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I detailed my build because I think it shows the silly thinking of some in the thread. Beams are not an issue on an escort... they have advantages which you can exploit in an escort. I talk about my plain rocking because I don't see many people doing it... but does what you want it to do in an escort. That is heavy SINGLE target pressure. I know it doesn't seem right to say 3 single arrays at a time or 3 DBB at a time is applying anything close to DHC spam... but it does. You don't have to be 2k on someones butt... and to be honest turrets suck hard so mostly in a Cannon build all you have on target are 3 DHC anyway.
It used to be that when you broke arc on a beam weapon it kept firing through the cycle... which was interesting in its own way. At some point Cryptic changed it so that when you broke arc the cycle insta stops and refunds all weapon power. THIS mechanic is super usable on an escort that can move fast enough to rock the plain back and forth. What I have been doing is letting my DBB start... when the cycle hits twice at 2s... I rock back and engage the arrays in back and do that back and forth... It IS less pressure then what would come out of a full cruiser broadside... It means though that at any time I can hit someone EXACTLY when I want with an overload... no windup animations or anything else... break the arc back and boom overload. It feels like back in the old days of season 1-2 when we used to time Torps to ho hit hull just when we would have shields down. lol ZAP green ball of death... respawn.
Try it out DDIS see if I am crazy.... but get your speed / turn up as high as you can. And try it out. It seems pretty effective so far in my testing... and its in fact pretty darn fun. I swear a few times I have got a good plain arc on a cruiser and watched them melt from the DEM strikes.
however, I have been thinking of doing an all cannon loadout, because on a b'rel, I can have DEM3, ETPW. I will be giving up survivability, of course, but I would imagine the combo of those 2 plus DHCs (and maybe some reps that penetrate to hull) might give the escort back it's edge. Of course, there are only a few ships that have the right boff slots to do this, and the b'rel is one of them.
I refuse to vape with BO though.... usually classless kills. Yes, I have succumb to the vaper that is in a fight for 5 seconds and then ICC's out of the combat zone, but can't hang with the big boys for very long.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
i like spread because it best takes full advantage of the knetic shearing and applies the most procs with the bio torp. often i might not kill someone in the attack run, but then i suddenly watch them spontaneously combust a few seconds later from all the shearing and 5 or so radiation procs of at least 1000 damage each. that and, 14 torpedoes hitting hull is just staggering, especially when at least half of them crit
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/594785045705675621/4DF3F3B809510E30F5BAEA9FA63159E58EE1D0E0/
this was vs an boss-ish NPC, but it got waked in about a second. whats in the log is every piece of data having to do with the battle, the 4 DBB didn't even get their 5th FAW shot off before the torps stacked pure knetic death
and this is what kinetic shearing can do when torps hit hull
http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/595910305758625803/2E8ED5BCCF2C196E94A6E321682A5042B0CB431C/
i think its pretty frickin funny that the both of us adopted a new play style right at the same time in reaction to this torp, the meta is putty in our hands lol. season 9 has been odd, the last ship i ever thought i would fly again was the patrol, and the last thing i thought was that a energy/torp rainbow build would BTFO everything else
DHC aren't spike like BO, but they are much more bursty then beams and can be focused on a single target using rapid fire, while beams have to fire unbuffed to go on a single target. We still regularly run DHC bugs in premades, and once the target has been debuffed by sci, the DHC burst targets down very quickly, I often see strings of multiple crits from 10k-20k. We haven't been able to fight too many other premades this past month or so, but when we do we don't lose when using DHC bugs. DHC is still very much viable both in premades and in pugging can still be viable as long as you coordinate with a sci or look for targets of opportunity.
Anyway I give you credit that you at least aren't using 7 beam arrays and zooming around broadsiding and are trying something different that can work good, but the vast majority of beamscort users are not doing that and are useless and wasting their time and their opponents time.
oooooh like your powertray config.. never thought of organizing mine vertically instead of horizontally... think I might try it! hate writing keybind files though.. blech... i.e. preserving execute order by writing them forwards and then writing them backwards lol
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
I like the new one in with my BO/HY combo. If I get a shield face down with BO the HY already en route is going to leave them dead or with a sliver. Fast and non-targetable, good combination.
I just don't like the idea that beams shouldn't be allowed on escorts... because the average moron you find in a pug match has no idea what they are doing... or there knowledge doesn't exceed PvE so they bring there PvE beam builds to the match.
Beams are Very viable on an escort... sure most people default to faw on them... I have posted though explaining why I feel in many ways Unbuffed beams are = to buffed cannons. Its because of the meta where the real killing happens with spike.
Yes in a premade people will default cannon scort... but as you have said marc they don't work there with out heavy sci support. Meaning properly timed nukes and cc. With out that no DHC escorts will NOT kill anything in a premade match. There is a reason why no premade runs with out 2 sci min.
I have no doubt a beam/torp escort setup to do SINGLE target dmg... would be just as effective in a premade. Because the sci are the ones doing 90% of the work.
I don't mean to offend anyone saying this... and I think I'm known well enough as a cannon escort guy to say this. We premade with cannon escorts because its EASIER. Its easier in the way that the dmg ramp skill (Rapid Fire) is a 10S duration which makes timing DHC "Spike" with subnukes pretty hard to F up. (I know at one time I tried to time sub nukes with torp boat spike in a premade setting and it was glorious and super effective 50% of the time... that was the issue the timing window was so small it was very hard to pull off reliably... in that regard DHC are superior they are more forgiving of timing)
There's several issues with the E-Bio, both with how it is working and with the tooltips/info for it. Course, folks aren't happy that I keep calling what's going on with the E-Bio a bug - but when no other torps compares to it in the least - when it does not work anything like any other torp...one can't delude oneself that there's not something wrong there.
ya, i like my tray setup and and ui organization a LOT. the boff powers are super intuitively grouped for whenever i click, but for keybinds i fill up rows 4 through 8 with various types of macros. i don't have any execute whole row binds on the first visible 3. hilbert calls this 'tray 7' in his guide, same idea.
i also got my team there in the corner, so i can click on them and then only move the mouse a tiny bit to click a heal. cause i don't have team mate selecting foot pedals...
http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/490062041529282842/DB3EEA0415436B1E0B987A5ED81FE1D98728F523/
here you can see i have my target and his buff's right above were mine are displayed, the last bit of important UI organization. everything relevant to each other is grouped together as close as possible
well i just posted pictures showing the radiation proc in action in response to spread hits, so im gunna call that a tool tip oversight
Just had to add this one for you slightly off topic. lol
http://s15.postimg.org/65p0ii2t7/screenshot_2014_05_16_19_29_59.jpg
If the borg could cry nerf they would. Sheering + Quantum rom torp boat is PvE lulz mode... its crazyer then tric mines ever where and its also higher dps then FAW boating.
Count the Sheering between my tykens ticks..... thats a 22k Dot. lol
2 examples in near laboratory conditions, showing off 2 things at thier ultimate extremes lol. those are some crazy numbers there though. but even in pvp, a bunch of 100 to 500 dots stacked up is a help.
this is the sort of thing ive wanted for the longest time, just running energy weapons being a self nerf. befor running any torps was a self nerf.
I agree.. I am loving sheering. It has made torps not just an option in PvP but imo almost needed. The dots are a great way to make that one torp that slips through matter... and a way to make sure your rewarded for landing good hits on hull. Even just throwing them around against shields at least one way to look at it is the hull pen got a 40% buff.
So the beam / cannon thing for me comes down to what makes more sense for me....
Beams+Cannons+Torps (Highest burst option... but expensive in terms of boffs and doffs)
Beams+Torps (Second Highest burst... Most economical boff and doff setup)
Cannons+Torps (Lowest burst... Most expensive doff / boff setup)
Torp Boat (I won't go into that one... I PvP in these to... my new PvE hero ship though lol)
That is where I am looking at possible builds right now... torps are just to good to not run... they draw hazards they kill people that manage to get shields back up... they end people that can't keep a shield ip. Cannons + Torp isn't high burst and its not that efficant to build.
So ya for the most part that is why I am big on beams right now... finding ways to make them work and support my torp dmg.