A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
He was a background medical officer in Star Trek Generations. A background character throughout voyager as well as other roles. He was also the stand-in for Jonathan Frakes in the final episode of Star Trek Enterprise as well as other characters in the show.
You have to remember that the Voyager writers had a tendency to not give a damn on keeping their characterizations constant. Hence the "Captain Bi-polar" and "HMS Reset Button" jokes. Chakotay wore a Lt. Commander (Provisional) rank insignia all seven years, but was only ever addressed as "Commander," which begs certain questions of the costuming department as well. Lt. Commanders are usually only addressed as Commander informally.
So can we give poor Ensign Butt Monkey a little bit break? it's not all his fault.
I agree. I liked Harry Kim. He was the Wesley Crusher of Voyager; good actor but the writers didn't do squat with the character development.
Just as, for example, Ro Laren and Kira Nerys are female Bajorans in their 20s who hate the Cardassian Union and the Cardassian species, grew up during the Cardassian Occupation, and have fiery tempers.
You do realise that describes every single bajoran woman? Of course they start the same, Kira was meant to be Ro Laren initially. We only got Kira because Michelle Forbes didn't want to commit to an ongoing role.
I think we've established Kim was not a Sulu rip off. Now, let's get back to the excitement of having another Trek actor return to his role in STO. I for one are looking forward to see what the Rhode Island is up to.
*******************************************
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
You do realise that describes every single bajoran woman? Of course they start the same, Kira was meant to be Ro Laren initially. We only got Kira because Michelle Forbes didn't want to commit to an ongoing role.
My point exactly. Kira starts out as a clone of Ro.
So it looks we've been arguing over something that I wrote while thinking only about Summer Glau being badass, while high on Red Bull, with my friends yelling stuff in time with the audio from the movie. I've gone back and edited out the stupid.
I apologize for getting into this argument with you. I agree that my original comment was stupid, insensitive, and inappropriate.
I still feel, however, that Ensign Kim is an uninteresting character who was conceived as an attempt to duplicate Sulu's popularity.
Well, you throw a character who's pretty obviously styled to look like Sulu onto the bridge of a ship, and you expect me to NOT go "oh, that guy's a Sulu ripoff"? Especially when that guy's the first Asian main character on a Trek show since Sulu himself? I mean, by "Caretaker", we'd had black, Asian, female, and alien Captains. We'd had Worf, Jadzia, the Sisko, Admiral Sulu, and so forth. We had an obvious attempt at a Kirk clone (Riker) who later got his own personality. We had a Ro Laren ripoff who got her own character (Kira). We had a Worf ripoff who quickly became his own...blob (Odo). We'd had multiple hyper-logical bridge officers (Spock, Data). When you throw a young Asian man with Sulu-ish looks onto a Star Trek Bridge after that history, I EXPECT him to be a Sulu ripoff or attempt at such until proven otherwise.
Heck, you might as well call me racist against white people for assuming Riker to be a Kirk ripoff the moment he walked onto the Enterprise with his jaunty smile and obvious attempt at boyish good looks that looked SO much better once he grew a beard.
And I can remember pretty clearly Harry Kim being touted as the first Asian Trek main since Sulu. The writers pretty obviously threw him in the cast and expected to get the same reaction that Sulu got.
And they didn't, because they didn't put in any of the scripts or traits or generalized personality that got put into Sulu.
So I think you're partially right, that Kim isn't a Sulu ripoff. He's a bad ATTEMPT at a Sulu ripoff.
A proper Sulu ripoff would've at least been the helmsman and been reasonably competent and interesting. And I would've been OK with that.
You are being racist saying he was a ripoff of Sulu just because Harry Kim happens to be of Asian decent and happens to look like him. The characters were nothing alike.
He wasn't a ripoff of Sulu. In my opinion he was a copy of Wesley Crusher; good actor but the writers kept the character as a young inexperienced ensign that never developed into anything interesting.
So character wise he had more in common with Wesley and just happened to *look* like Sulu.
No one is disputing Kira was the same as Ro in the first couple of episodes. But every Bajoran woman has that fiery temper, hates cardassians and were basically 'Ro clones'. Considering they just got out of a 60 year occupation, that's not surprising.
It's the kim/Sulu thing everyone is disputing against you. May I suggest this disscussion is moved to a new thread, and this one remains about Garrett Wang coming to STO?
*******************************************
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
In my opinion he was a copy of Wesley Crusher; good actor but the writers kept the character as a young inexperienced ensign that never developed into anything interesting.
uh, come again? he developed into a damn Gary Sue with reality-bending thought powers
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
You are being racist saying he was a ripoff of Sulu just because Harry Kim happens to be of Asian decent and happens to look like him. The characters were nothing alike.
He wasn't a ripoff of Sulu. In my opinion he was a copy of Wesley Crusher; good actor but the writers kept the character as a young inexperienced ensign that never developed into anything interesting.
So character wise he had more in common with Wesley and just happened to *look* like Sulu.
As I've said A DOZEN TIMES BEFORE, the race thing is just one factor. And I don't actually care that they are Asian; it could be any other under-represented ethnicity or species in Trek. They could both be Andorians, or both sentient sehlats, or time-clones of the Borg Queen, or WHATEVER for all I care. The fact remains that they are of the same general ethnic group, which is under-represented on Trek, look a lot like each other, are close in age, have similarly important roles in keeping their ships going, are from the same country on the same planet, and have very similar general backstories.
Also, Wesley was an overpowered Gary Stu. Kim was just...there.
The fact remains that they are of the same general ethnic group, which is under-represented on Trek, look a lot like each other, are close in age, have similarly important roles in keeping their ships going, are from the same country on the same planet, and have very similar general backstories.
Tom Paris and Wesley Crusher are both from the same general ethnic group, look a lot like each other, are close in age, have similarly important roles in keeping their ships going, are from the same country on the same planet, and have very similar general backstories.
Tom Paris and Wesley Crusher are both from the same general ethnic group, look a lot like each other, are close in age, have similarly important roles in keeping their ships going, are from the same country on the same planet, and have very similar general backstories.
So I suppose Paris is a cheap rip-off of Wesley?
Yes.
Only he's just an TRIBBLE, not OP.
Edit to add: Wesley is the wunderkind super-pilot genius. Paris is a wunderkind super-pilot flyboy. Both have daddy issues (Wesley's dad is dead, Paris's dad rightly sees him as a useless idiot). Neither changes much between their first and last appearances (although to his credit Wesley has that one really tense episode at the Academy).
When I first saw him, I assumed Paris to be a bad copy of Wesley, and wondered what the hell the writers were thinking.
Seven seasons did change the first opinion slightly, but did not change the second.
In which case, my next question is: Seeing as all character types and storylines have essentially been ripped off for thousands of years, how have you enjoyed any piece of fiction since ancient Greek theatre?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
In which case, my next question is: Seeing as all character types and storylines have essentially been ripped off for thousands of years, how have you enjoyed any piece of fiction since ancient Greek theatre?
It's when someone creates something truly unique (extremely rare) or combines elements of older stories in a new and interesting way, or creates a GOOD near-clone of an existing character, that I truly enjoy fiction. That and good worldbuilding (another reason I dislike Voyager, ENT, and JJTrek).
Edit to add: I should note that I quite enjoy classical Greek theater, especially comedies such as "Lysistrata" and "The Clouds".
As I've said A DOZEN TIMES BEFORE, the race thing is just one factor.
And yet it's the only coherent factor you've advanced.
You say that Kim had no distinguishing characteristics (thus ignoring his clarinet hobby, or the fact that he tried to be Paris' voice of reason and wound up dragged into Paris' adventures when he failed). That alone should be enough to set him apart from fencing, dilletante-botanist Hikaru Sulu, n'est-ce pas?
The only thing you've given us to support your "Sulu ripoff" contention is that he's of Asian descent. That's it. And they're not even from the same part of Asia. That's like claiming that Paris is a Chekov ripoff because they're both Caucasian.
And yet it's the only coherent factor you've advanced.
You say that Kim had no distinguishing characteristics (thus ignoring his clarinet hobby, or the fact that he tried to be Paris' voice of reason and wound up dragged into Paris' adventures when he failed). That alone should be enough to set him apart from fencing, dilletante-botanist Hikaru Sulu, n'est-ce pas?
The only thin you've given us to support your "Sulu ripoff" contention is that he's of Asian descent. That's it. And they're not even from the same part of Asia. That's like claiming that Paris is a Chekov ripoff because they're both Caucasian.
--I don't even remember Kim playing the clarinet. Which episode was that from?
--Yeah, so he's weak-willed. OK. Sulu gets dragged into Kirk's insane stunts all the time. Remember ST5? ST3? ST4?
--There are other reasons, not the least of which is that Kim was at one point held up as the "new Sulu". I HATE it when new characters are given that treatment. For example, I can't stand the protagonist of "Prometheus" because she was repeatedly held up as the "new Ripley", and I just...can't stand that. It's a personal pet peeve of mine; when there's a character I like, I HATE the idea of him/her being "replaced" by a new insert.
In the same vein, I couldn't stand Riker until season 3 or so of TNG, when he stopped being a Kirk ripoff and gained common sense.
--Finally, I have admitted that (a) Kim is not technically a ripoff of Sulu (he is still an ATTEMPTED ripoff of Sulu, and a failed one at that), and (b) my original comment was stupid, insensitive, and written when I wasn't actually paying attention to what I was writing. Furthermore, I would like to note that my opinion that Kim is a bad attempt at a Sulu ripoff is just that: my opinion, that I haven't watched Voyager in 2 years, and that my primary reason for wanting Sulu over Kim is because Sulu is my favorite Trek character while Kim was so boring that I couldn't actually care about him.
--I don't even remember Kim playing the clarinet. Which episode was that from?
He actually played it in "Parturition", "Coda", "Night" and "Virtuoso", it was also referenced countless times across the series (starting in the very first episode "Caretaker").
He actually played it in "Parturition", "Coda", "Night" and "Virtuoso", it was also referenced countless times across the series (starting in the very first episode "Caretaker").
Huh.
Guess I haven't watched enough Voyager lately. Ugh. I can only take so much of Mad Kathy and Sexed-up of Nine before I lose it and start yelling at the TV.
That being said, I admit that I was wrong, and that Kim has his own hobbies, even if I didn't actually care about the character enough to remember them.
I must admit that the only times I actually felt anything other than mild annoyance at Kim was (a) when the Undine hit him, and I wanted him to die so that Chakotay could get more time and maybe stop being stereotyped as the Majical Spirit TRIBBLE, and (b) in "Endgame", in which his older self was literally the only mildly diverting piece of a truly wretched episode.
I know! And the excuse of being stranded in the Delta Quadrant doesn't fly, because Tuvok received a promotion during that time.
i have to check when but i think its between S1 and S2 he actually gets bousted down 1 rank he starts off as a Lt Com, before going back to Lt and finally back to Lt Com. As for most of the other crew they have "provitional" rank so in the truest since Harry outranked most of the senior staff only cause he actually earned his rank from star fleet and wasnt given a rank by the capt to form a chain of command
Comments
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Seconded. All we're missing in the audience chaning "Jeh-ree! Jeh-ree! Jeh-ree!"
How about the guy who wore the Satan's Robot costume? http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tarik_Ergin
He was a background medical officer in Star Trek Generations. A background character throughout voyager as well as other roles. He was also the stand-in for Jonathan Frakes in the final episode of Star Trek Enterprise as well as other characters in the show.
I agree. I liked Harry Kim. He was the Wesley Crusher of Voyager; good actor but the writers didn't do squat with the character development.
You do realise that describes every single bajoran woman? Of course they start the same, Kira was meant to be Ro Laren initially. We only got Kira because Michelle Forbes didn't want to commit to an ongoing role.
I think we've established Kim was not a Sulu rip off. Now, let's get back to the excitement of having another Trek actor return to his role in STO. I for one are looking forward to see what the Rhode Island is up to.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
My point exactly. Kira starts out as a clone of Ro.
She only gets to be herself later on.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
So it looks we've been arguing over something that I wrote while thinking only about Summer Glau being badass, while high on Red Bull, with my friends yelling stuff in time with the audio from the movie. I've gone back and edited out the stupid.
I apologize for getting into this argument with you. I agree that my original comment was stupid, insensitive, and inappropriate.
I still feel, however, that Ensign Kim is an uninteresting character who was conceived as an attempt to duplicate Sulu's popularity.
You are being racist saying he was a ripoff of Sulu just because Harry Kim happens to be of Asian decent and happens to look like him. The characters were nothing alike.
He wasn't a ripoff of Sulu. In my opinion he was a copy of Wesley Crusher; good actor but the writers kept the character as a young inexperienced ensign that never developed into anything interesting.
So character wise he had more in common with Wesley and just happened to *look* like Sulu.
It's the kim/Sulu thing everyone is disputing against you. May I suggest this disscussion is moved to a new thread, and this one remains about Garrett Wang coming to STO?
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
why do you think so many people despise him?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
As I've said A DOZEN TIMES BEFORE, the race thing is just one factor. And I don't actually care that they are Asian; it could be any other under-represented ethnicity or species in Trek. They could both be Andorians, or both sentient sehlats, or time-clones of the Borg Queen, or WHATEVER for all I care. The fact remains that they are of the same general ethnic group, which is under-represented on Trek, look a lot like each other, are close in age, have similarly important roles in keeping their ships going, are from the same country on the same planet, and have very similar general backstories.
Also, Wesley was an overpowered Gary Stu. Kim was just...there.
Tom Paris and Wesley Crusher are both from the same general ethnic group, look a lot like each other, are close in age, have similarly important roles in keeping their ships going, are from the same country on the same planet, and have very similar general backstories.
So I suppose Paris is a cheap rip-off of Wesley?
Yes.
Only he's just an TRIBBLE, not OP.
Edit to add: Wesley is the wunderkind super-pilot genius. Paris is a wunderkind super-pilot flyboy. Both have daddy issues (Wesley's dad is dead, Paris's dad rightly sees him as a useless idiot). Neither changes much between their first and last appearances (although to his credit Wesley has that one really tense episode at the Academy).
When I first saw him, I assumed Paris to be a bad copy of Wesley, and wondered what the hell the writers were thinking.
Seven seasons did change the first opinion slightly, but did not change the second.
In which case, my next question is: Seeing as all character types and storylines have essentially been ripped off for thousands of years, how have you enjoyed any piece of fiction since ancient Greek theatre?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
It's when someone creates something truly unique (extremely rare) or combines elements of older stories in a new and interesting way, or creates a GOOD near-clone of an existing character, that I truly enjoy fiction. That and good worldbuilding (another reason I dislike Voyager, ENT, and JJTrek).
Edit to add: I should note that I quite enjoy classical Greek theater, especially comedies such as "Lysistrata" and "The Clouds".
You say that Kim had no distinguishing characteristics (thus ignoring his clarinet hobby, or the fact that he tried to be Paris' voice of reason and wound up dragged into Paris' adventures when he failed). That alone should be enough to set him apart from fencing, dilletante-botanist Hikaru Sulu, n'est-ce pas?
The only thing you've given us to support your "Sulu ripoff" contention is that he's of Asian descent. That's it. And they're not even from the same part of Asia. That's like claiming that Paris is a Chekov ripoff because they're both Caucasian.
--I don't even remember Kim playing the clarinet. Which episode was that from?
--Yeah, so he's weak-willed. OK. Sulu gets dragged into Kirk's insane stunts all the time. Remember ST5? ST3? ST4?
--There are other reasons, not the least of which is that Kim was at one point held up as the "new Sulu". I HATE it when new characters are given that treatment. For example, I can't stand the protagonist of "Prometheus" because she was repeatedly held up as the "new Ripley", and I just...can't stand that. It's a personal pet peeve of mine; when there's a character I like, I HATE the idea of him/her being "replaced" by a new insert.
In the same vein, I couldn't stand Riker until season 3 or so of TNG, when he stopped being a Kirk ripoff and gained common sense.
--Finally, I have admitted that (a) Kim is not technically a ripoff of Sulu (he is still an ATTEMPTED ripoff of Sulu, and a failed one at that), and (b) my original comment was stupid, insensitive, and written when I wasn't actually paying attention to what I was writing. Furthermore, I would like to note that my opinion that Kim is a bad attempt at a Sulu ripoff is just that: my opinion, that I haven't watched Voyager in 2 years, and that my primary reason for wanting Sulu over Kim is because Sulu is my favorite Trek character while Kim was so boring that I couldn't actually care about him.
He actually played it in "Parturition", "Coda", "Night" and "Virtuoso", it was also referenced countless times across the series (starting in the very first episode "Caretaker").
Huh.
Guess I haven't watched enough Voyager lately. Ugh. I can only take so much of Mad Kathy and Sexed-up of Nine before I lose it and start yelling at the TV.
That being said, I admit that I was wrong, and that Kim has his own hobbies, even if I didn't actually care about the character enough to remember them.
I must admit that the only times I actually felt anything other than mild annoyance at Kim was (a) when the Undine hit him, and I wanted him to die so that Chakotay could get more time and maybe stop being stereotyped as the Majical Spirit TRIBBLE, and (b) in "Endgame", in which his older self was literally the only mildly diverting piece of a truly wretched episode.
i have to check when but i think its between S1 and S2 he actually gets bousted down 1 rank he starts off as a Lt Com, before going back to Lt and finally back to Lt Com. As for most of the other crew they have "provitional" rank so in the truest since Harry outranked most of the senior staff only cause he actually earned his rank from star fleet and wasnt given a rank by the capt to form a chain of command