leave it to pvpers to once again improve the game for everyone by bringing bugs to light. subtle difference between that and demanding NERFS! :rolleyes:
15. Kit ability: Chroniton Mine Barrier/Active Immunity Mine Field Issue: Chroniton Mine Barrier and Active Immunity Mine Field both have very short cooldowns (20 seconds/2 second deployment) while also dealing very high damage. The minefields are each capable of one hit killing a player after stepping on just 2-3 mines. Additionally, the two types of minefields do not have a shared cooldown. This allows players to stack Chroniton Mine Barrier and Active Immunity Mine Field on top of each other.
Status: To be advised by Cryptic
I believe we can consider the damage part on the mines resolved.
Mines were intentionally lowered in how they scale up as your power improves, but that does seem to have missed the patch notes. We'll look at how that happened, as I know a patch note was written for the change.
Leave it to the PvPers to once again strip out one of the few redeeming features from this nerf filled season.
This has nothing to do with whether this topic was posted in a PvP forum or a Bug forum. Shared functionality kit Modules should share equip limits - it's as simple as that.
These particular Modules may end up remaining the way they are, but we won't repeat such an oversight in the future.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Borticus: Thanks for the replies. I'm planning to do some more testing this weekend. I'll see if I can test out all the kit powers with and without Creative then. Right now I can confirm that Tachyon Harmonic and Exothermic Induction Field aren't buffed by Creative. If I do test it all out I'll send you a forum email as well as posting somewhere.
Nulonu:
Here's a screenshot showing the infocard and tooltip. http://i.snag.gy/dZC8F.jpg
Compare to Aim ("+33% Rng Dmg" on the buff bar) and Soldier, which explicitly mentions "ranged weapons" in the infocard.
Maybe Bort can give us an official statement, but Acuity looks to me like it's doing exactly what it says it's supposed to do... same as Sure Footed.
This has nothing to do with whether this topic was posted in a PvP forum or a Bug forum. Shared functionality kit Modules should share equip limits - it's as simple as that.
These particular Modules may end up remaining the way they are, but we won't repeat such an oversight in the future.
While I will apologize for a knee jerk reaction, I won't apologize for my feelings on the overzealous complaints from the pvp groups on so many past and current builds.
When I saw that the new items were a separate type and were allowed to be mixed together in the new kit system it felt like a move to expand what we can do with our kits and seemed to balance out the large scale damage nerfs. Instead of getting the damage that you wanted with a single module, you now pay twice the module slots. Also you could create situations that allowed for some tactics, like setting up cross fire positions and using turrets to create 3 way flanking.
But with the upcoming doff fixes, making them fall into the same category and having only one slotted may be the only solution that keeps you and adjuticatorhawk from cutting our damage output in half yet again for any single module.
After all, when people are facing six turrets at once I'm sure they will start crying foul and asking for them to be removed anyway, rather then tossing a grenade, using a mortar, or using a exothermic induction to clear the turrets or mine fields.
Though I do wonder, would it be possible to add an arming delay to mines, rather then lowering their damage?
This would prevent people from dropping the mines in close quarters with no way for an opponent to get away, while at the same time still allowing a smart strategic minded engineer the ability to lay mines that force players to remove or go around them to help control an area.
indeed, Creative buffs relatively few powers. Of course it specifically states that it buffs healing or damage dealing kit powers- and Reroute Power to Shields is a Captain power. But the result is that unless you're using what used to be the Enemy Neutralization kit, Creative does nothing for an engineer.
This has nothing to do with whether this topic was posted in a PvP forum or a Bug forum. Shared functionality kit Modules should share equip limits - it's as simple as that.
Can't you just add some shared cooldowns on activation, like it already happens with grenade powers, and call it a day? That would prevent stacking problems without having to change much.
Some responses to the first post. These are just off-the-cuff answers, not hard-set promises of changes/fixes.
Thanks for taking the time to write up replies for all of these issues. I'll work on writing up a list of things not affected by the Creative trait. (If someone doesn't beat me to it first)
After all, when people are facing six turrets at once I'm sure they will start crying foul and asking for them to be removed anyway, rather then tossing a grenade, using a mortar, or using a exothermic induction to clear the turrets or mine fields.
I can't speak for the entire PvP community, but I personally have never had an issue with turrets. I've had issue with engineers exploiting the multiple fabricaiton bug to pump out three dozen quantum mortars, but never with turrets. Turrets are stationary, easily destroyed, have a rather limiting range, and the only turret with dangerous damage is the plasma turret.
Though I do wonder, would it be possible to add an arming delay to mines, rather then lowering their damage?
This would prevent people from dropping the mines in close quarters with no way for an opponent to get away, while at the same time still allowing a smart strategic minded engineer the ability to lay mines that force players to remove or go around them to help control an area.
The problem with mine barrier isn't the arming time at all. Mine killing in PvP is all about area denial and blocking off an opponent's path. Right now it is possible to deploy four sets of five mines per engineer. One engineer can coat the battlefield to the point that players cannot avoid stepping on a mine while avoiding quantum mortar hits. It gets worse for every engineer on the map using those mines. The 20 second cooldown on the mines also greatly reduces the effectiveness of playing minesweeper to clear out the mines.
Then there is the fact that some engineers use mine barrier on spawn points to kill players before they have even finished spawning. There is also the bug where engineers can stack all five mines from the field on top of eachother to look like a single mine. This is most easily done when facing a wall or a doorway. The Active Immunity Minefield and Chroniton Barrier may now be stacked on top of each other for a total of 10 mines in the exact same physical location. Anyone that steps on that "single" mine will take 2,400-4,600 damage instantly with 50% shield bypass. The map becomes unplayable if enemy engineers do that to every doorway on the map.
Whether intentional or not the Chroniton mine barrier arming time changed when Season 9 went live from 5 secs to the current 9 secs arming delay.
It does not take 9 seconds for Chroniton Mine Barrier to arm. I've run into engineers since Season 9 and I haven't noticed much difference on the arm delay. It might be a second or two longer, but it is definately not 9 seconds.
It does not take 9 seconds for Chroniton Mine Barrier to arm. I've run into engineers since Season 9 and I haven't noticed much difference on the arm delay. It might be a second or two longer, but it is definately not 9 seconds.
I should have been more specific I always count in my head from deployment till arming which was a 5 count S8 to a 9 count S9, i just timed my counting method with a stopwatch and it works out to a 3sec arm S8 to a 5sec arm S9 sorry for the confusion. :cool:
Yes, a fix is coming. But the description here is also misleading, as the bug is only in the UI, as far as I've been able to reproduce. Even when shields show 0/0, you still have the actual Shields active with the correct resistances and capacity in place.
Im sorry but this is not a UI bug, and please dont call it only a ui bug as when the shield is at 0/0 on the ui, the person shooting at you never touches your shield and just bypasses it completly
(picture link) >>> every shot after shows ur shields full (0/0) but are being bypassed <<<<(picture link), now that you say this is a ui bug i am very worried that it will never be fixed , remember when space had a simular bug and the spacers had to tell the dev over and over that is wasnt a ui bug.....sound like cryptic is going down that rout again
It does not take 9 seconds for Chroniton Mine Barrier to arm. I've run into engineers since Season 9 and I haven't noticed much difference on the arm delay. It might be a second or two longer, but it is definately not 9 seconds.
It's noticeably longer. Really tho, so what? Throws my timing off a little but just have to get used to it. Something to work on when I get tired of my new physicist sci build.
It's noticeably longer. Really tho, so what? Throws my timing off a little but just have to get used to it.
Personally I haven't noticed any real time difference. Perhaps I will when I go back to playing Engineer next week. Lately I've been focusing on taking in Tactical and Science to their fullest potential with the kit revamp.
indeed, Creative buffs relatively few powers. Of course it specifically states that it buffs healing or damage dealing kit powers- and Reroute Power to Shields is a Captain power. But the result is that unless you're using what used to be the Enemy Neutralization kit, Creative does nothing for an engineer.
The creative trait should affect all heals, regardless of source. Below is the description taken from the wiki; I'm fairly certain that it matches the in-game description.
Improves your healing with all powers. This affects both Health and Shield heals. Also improves your damage with powers granted by your Kit.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
This has nothing to do with whether this topic was posted in a PvP forum or a Bug forum. Shared functionality kit Modules should share equip limits - it's as simple as that.
These particular Modules may end up remaining the way they are, but we won't repeat such an oversight in the future.
My issue I've pretty much have been able to make what I wanted with fleet holding kits or the fluidic lockbox one. Although I have noticed when the tactical skills the way they are you just have very few of assault and then majority of them are all strategic where as none of the fleet holding or fluidic kits have this unless you go to a lesser form of kit. I am guessing this was done intentionally for future holdings and lockboxes to create a need to do either of those.
I do hope that maybe some of the other holdings like the romulan one possibly could get a thalaron drone module for engineers
Borticus: Thanks for the replies. I'm planning to do some more testing this weekend. I'll see if I can test out all the kit powers with and without Creative then. Right now I can confirm that Tachyon Harmonic and Exothermic Induction Field aren't buffed by Creative. If I do test it all out I'll send you a forum email as well as posting somewhere.
Nulonu:
Here's a screenshot showing the infocard and tooltip. http://i.snag.gy/dZC8F.jpg
Compare to Aim ("+33% Rng Dmg" on the buff bar) and Soldier, which explicitly mentions "ranged weapons" in the infocard.
Maybe Bort can give us an official statement, but Acuity looks to me like it's doing exactly what it says it's supposed to do... same as Sure Footed.
Thanks subu. Yea looks like it's doing exactly what it's supposed to. Seems weird after years of aim only affecting certain things. Strange to see exothermic jump from aiming but w/e. I wonder though, if you aim while summoning mines do they keep the buff if you stop aiming before someone walks into them? With normal aiming you can see turret damage go up and down in the combat log when the engineer stops aiming. I wonder if this passive works the same way.
Thanks subu. Yea looks like it's doing exactly what it's supposed to. Seems weird after years of aim only affecting certain things. Strange to see exothermic jump from aiming but w/e. I wonder though, if you aim while summoning mines do they keep the buff if you stop aiming before someone walks into them? With normal aiming you can see turret damage go up and down in the combat log when the engineer stops aiming. I wonder if this passive works the same way.
Well, for turrets it makes sense if you use technobabble reasons when you think about it. Like 'the turrets are tied into the engineer's personal targeting system they carry, and they can identify vulnerable spots, increasing the damage of their deployed turrets', or something else like that.
Anyways, I had a thought about that as well. So far it seems like mines on the ground are treated like mines in space: You launch them, and they are static at whatever point you launched them. So if you are a tac with APA, Tac fleet, and a good GDF going, then launch mines, those mines will stayed buffed even if you die or the buffs run out. Mines on the ground are created at a certain point and stay that way until they explode.
Now, I haven't really had much time to test this theory in a controlled environment yet, hopefully I can later. Mostly been seeing how it seems to affect NPCs as I go around doing stuff in PvE.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Aim always affected engineer fabrications. It never affected mines and orbital strike etc, nor should it. This looks like an error in my opinion.
So I tested this. Without Mental Acuity, Aim affects support drones, seeker drones, and turrets, but not quantum mortars. It seem there is an inconsistency.
This has nothing to do with whether this topic was posted in a PvP forum or a Bug forum. Shared functionality kit Modules should share equip limits - it's as simple as that.
These particular Modules may end up remaining the way they are, but we won't repeat such an oversight in the future.
I can understand and even get behind the idea of not doubling-up on similar powers.
However if the mine modules are "Shared Functionality" should they not use the same slot type? I've been wondering why Chroniton Mines are flagged as a Mechanic Module and Active Immunity Mines are flagged as a Fabrication Module... it means I can't swap them around like-for-like on the new Kits unless I stick them in a Universal Module Slot?
Not tested, but I'm pretty sure no. Other damage buffs like Diagnostic Engineer, battle strategies, strike team, etc, don't work that way with mines.
True but if you summon a turret while you have strike team from a tac up, I'm pretty sure the turret will keep the buff for the duration it exists. When S8 hit this functionality was mistakenly passed to security escorts. 9-12 copies of suppressing fire stacked on you lol. Thankfully that bug was fixed with S9. Turrets may not keep a buff anymore either. I would have to test it.
Comments
Vanilla Ground PvP information
I believe we can consider the damage part on the mines resolved.
Relevant dev quote:
STO Screenshot Archive
Leave it to the PvPers to once again strip out one of the few redeeming features from this nerf filled season.
This has nothing to do with whether this topic was posted in a PvP forum or a Bug forum. Shared functionality kit Modules should share equip limits - it's as simple as that.
These particular Modules may end up remaining the way they are, but we won't repeat such an oversight in the future.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Nulonu:
Here's a screenshot showing the infocard and tooltip.
http://i.snag.gy/dZC8F.jpg
Compare to Aim ("+33% Rng Dmg" on the buff bar) and Soldier, which explicitly mentions "ranged weapons" in the infocard.
Maybe Bort can give us an official statement, but Acuity looks to me like it's doing exactly what it says it's supposed to do... same as Sure Footed.
While I will apologize for a knee jerk reaction, I won't apologize for my feelings on the overzealous complaints from the pvp groups on so many past and current builds.
When I saw that the new items were a separate type and were allowed to be mixed together in the new kit system it felt like a move to expand what we can do with our kits and seemed to balance out the large scale damage nerfs. Instead of getting the damage that you wanted with a single module, you now pay twice the module slots. Also you could create situations that allowed for some tactics, like setting up cross fire positions and using turrets to create 3 way flanking.
But with the upcoming doff fixes, making them fall into the same category and having only one slotted may be the only solution that keeps you and adjuticatorhawk from cutting our damage output in half yet again for any single module.
After all, when people are facing six turrets at once I'm sure they will start crying foul and asking for them to be removed anyway, rather then tossing a grenade, using a mortar, or using a exothermic induction to clear the turrets or mine fields.
Though I do wonder, would it be possible to add an arming delay to mines, rather then lowering their damage?
This would prevent people from dropping the mines in close quarters with no way for an opponent to get away, while at the same time still allowing a smart strategic minded engineer the ability to lay mines that force players to remove or go around them to help control an area.
Can't you just add some shared cooldowns on activation, like it already happens with grenade powers, and call it a day? That would prevent stacking problems without having to change much.
I can't speak for the entire PvP community, but I personally have never had an issue with turrets. I've had issue with engineers exploiting the multiple fabricaiton bug to pump out three dozen quantum mortars, but never with turrets. Turrets are stationary, easily destroyed, have a rather limiting range, and the only turret with dangerous damage is the plasma turret.
The problem with mine barrier isn't the arming time at all. Mine killing in PvP is all about area denial and blocking off an opponent's path. Right now it is possible to deploy four sets of five mines per engineer. One engineer can coat the battlefield to the point that players cannot avoid stepping on a mine while avoiding quantum mortar hits. It gets worse for every engineer on the map using those mines. The 20 second cooldown on the mines also greatly reduces the effectiveness of playing minesweeper to clear out the mines.
Then there is the fact that some engineers use mine barrier on spawn points to kill players before they have even finished spawning. There is also the bug where engineers can stack all five mines from the field on top of eachother to look like a single mine. This is most easily done when facing a wall or a doorway. The Active Immunity Minefield and Chroniton Barrier may now be stacked on top of each other for a total of 10 mines in the exact same physical location. Anyone that steps on that "single" mine will take 2,400-4,600 damage instantly with 50% shield bypass. The map becomes unplayable if enemy engineers do that to every doorway on the map.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I've seen this question raised a couple of times and just wanted to clarify.
Mines already have an arming delay in place which is at least a couple of seconds, IIRC.
STO Screenshot Archive
Whether intentional or not the Chroniton mine barrier arming time changed when Season 9 went live from 5 secs to the current 9 secs arming delay.
Might be intentional, considering the damage reduction missed the patch notes. A delay increase might have missed it as well.
STO Screenshot Archive
It does not take 9 seconds for Chroniton Mine Barrier to arm. I've run into engineers since Season 9 and I haven't noticed much difference on the arm delay. It might be a second or two longer, but it is definately not 9 seconds.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I should have been more specific I always count in my head from deployment till arming which was a 5 count S8 to a 9 count S9, i just timed my counting method with a stopwatch and it works out to a 3sec arm S8 to a 5sec arm S9 sorry for the confusion. :cool:
PS: caffeine plays heck with timing :P
Im sorry but this is not a UI bug, and please dont call it only a ui bug as when the shield is at 0/0 on the ui, the person shooting at you never touches your shield and just bypasses it completly
(picture link) >>> every shot after shows ur shields full (0/0) but are being bypassed <<<<(picture link), now that you say this is a ui bug i am very worried that it will never be fixed
It's noticeably longer. Really tho, so what? Throws my timing off a little but just have to get used to it. Something to work on when I get tired of my new physicist sci build.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
Ah, ok, so you are counting the ability activation time in with the deployment time. Fair enough.
Personally I haven't noticed any real time difference. Perhaps I will when I go back to playing Engineer next week. Lately I've been focusing on taking in Tactical and Science to their fullest potential with the kit revamp.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I don't have a full list, but here's a list of engineering abilities not affected by the creative trait.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=896211
I submitted that bug reported long ago.
The creative trait should affect all heals, regardless of source. Below is the description taken from the wiki; I'm fairly certain that it matches the in-game description.
According to the testing I did months ago, the creative trait does not affect Chroniton Mine Barrier, Transphasic Bomb, or Fuse Armor.
EDIT: Ignore that, just read latest tribble patch notes fixing this.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
My issue I've pretty much have been able to make what I wanted with fleet holding kits or the fluidic lockbox one. Although I have noticed when the tactical skills the way they are you just have very few of assault and then majority of them are all strategic where as none of the fleet holding or fluidic kits have this unless you go to a lesser form of kit. I am guessing this was done intentionally for future holdings and lockboxes to create a need to do either of those.
I do hope that maybe some of the other holdings like the romulan one possibly could get a thalaron drone module for engineers
Thanks subu. Yea looks like it's doing exactly what it's supposed to. Seems weird after years of aim only affecting certain things. Strange to see exothermic jump from aiming but w/e. I wonder though, if you aim while summoning mines do they keep the buff if you stop aiming before someone walks into them? With normal aiming you can see turret damage go up and down in the combat log when the engineer stops aiming. I wonder if this passive works the same way.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
Well, for turrets it makes sense if you use technobabble reasons when you think about it. Like 'the turrets are tied into the engineer's personal targeting system they carry, and they can identify vulnerable spots, increasing the damage of their deployed turrets', or something else like that.
Anyways, I had a thought about that as well. So far it seems like mines on the ground are treated like mines in space: You launch them, and they are static at whatever point you launched them. So if you are a tac with APA, Tac fleet, and a good GDF going, then launch mines, those mines will stayed buffed even if you die or the buffs run out. Mines on the ground are created at a certain point and stay that way until they explode.
Now, I haven't really had much time to test this theory in a controlled environment yet, hopefully I can later. Mostly been seeing how it seems to affect NPCs as I go around doing stuff in PvE.
So I tested this. Without Mental Acuity, Aim affects support drones, seeker drones, and turrets, but not quantum mortars. It seem there is an inconsistency.
I can understand and even get behind the idea of not doubling-up on similar powers.
However if the mine modules are "Shared Functionality" should they not use the same slot type? I've been wondering why Chroniton Mines are flagged as a Mechanic Module and Active Immunity Mines are flagged as a Fabrication Module... it means I can't swap them around like-for-like on the new Kits unless I stick them in a Universal Module Slot?
Not tested, but I'm pretty sure no. Other damage buffs like Diagnostic Engineer, battle strategies, strike team, etc, don't work that way with mines.
True but if you summon a turret while you have strike team from a tac up, I'm pretty sure the turret will keep the buff for the duration it exists. When S8 hit this functionality was mistakenly passed to security escorts. 9-12 copies of suppressing fire stacked on you lol. Thankfully that bug was fixed with S9. Turrets may not keep a buff anymore either. I would have to test it.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
In that case, the only engineering power Creative affects is Shield Recharge, and that's clearly wrong.
Either Mk XII kit modules are not dropping or the Exchange is not showing them