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Ground PvP Concerns Directory 3.0

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  • ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I do agree that mines were too powerfull. But the issue cames when they nerf the mines but other overpower skills are buffer directly or indirectly.

    A buffed Lounge is now a oneshot ability and un like mines, where you have to step them, lounge can be used from nearly half a map.

    I am sorry, but we are back again when cloacked caitians domitaed the G-PVP, and that were not fun times..

    Lunge has always been a one-shot ability.
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
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  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    Lunge has always been a one-shot ability.

    That is absurd, it was borderline impossible to one hit kill a shielded player with lunge before Cryptic amped the shield penetration from 20% to 80% on all melee attacks. Since that time, the problem has only gotten worse, not better.
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  • tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    Lunge has always been a one-shot ability.

    No. Lunge was more of a mobility skill to get closer to the enemy for an Arcwave kill.
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  • ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tk79 wrote: »
    No. Lunge was more of a mobility skill to get closer to the enemy for an Arcwave kill.

    My experience with that ability countless times using it and facing it disagree.
    This was before the latest buffs.
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
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  • tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    My experience with that ability countless times using it and facing it disagree.
    This was before the latest buffs.

    The 80% shieldpen change is not exactly latest, does your experience consider the previous 20% pen?

    Before that change, I never got one-shot by Lunge, let alone Pounce, but Arcwave one-shot was common, specially when cold damage weren't reduced back then and everyone ran around with Cryo Pulsewaves. That's my experience facing the ability.

    As for using it... my first tac was a Caitian. Back when I created him, I thought, "I'm going to get Pounce so I don't need Lunge". And almost every other Caitian I fought in PvP apparently thought the same, using the Fire Kit team, and Pounce to get closer for an Arcwave kill.

    The only ones I remember *trying* to use Lunge for kills were Klingons, and it never worked on me.

    When the Shieldpen change came into effect, Caitians then started using Lunge+Pounce back to back for kills until the shared cooldown was put in place.
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  • tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    About the new Undine traits:
    • Adrenal Release
    • Immunity Response
    • Sixth Sense

    Here are the untold details:
    • Toggle lasts a maximum of 10 seconds
    • Clicking the skill again toggles it off prematurely
    • Cooldown: 1m after they detoggle
    • They are exclusive (only one can be active at a time)
    • No shared cooldown - they can be activated back to back

    The cooldowns seem quite short, considering other traits (like Stubborn) have a 4m cooldown for a lesser effect.
    Adrenal Release is basically Ambush for everyone, with a penalty.
    It affects things like Orbital Strike.

    [EDIT] Adrenal Release resistance numbers from game with full Dyson set:
    • Physical: 1%
    • Kinetic: 2%
    • Energy: 13%
    • Antiproton: 20%
    • Electrical: 12%
    • Radiation/Fire/Cold: -74%
    • Toxic: -58%
    • Psionic: -81%

    Immunity Response resistance numbers are pretty disappointing. Only about a 20% damage resistance gain (from ~50% to 70%). You can blame Diminishing Returns for that. On the other hand, it also grants ~70% resists to environmental and psionic damage.
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  • loverofwarsloverofwars Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    T

    02. Kit ability: Lunge
    Issue: Lunge is an extremely powerful knockback ability that also provides 80% shield bypass. However, Lunge may be buffed with other tactical abilities to the point where every hit will one hit kill a player. It is currently possible to deal approximately 5,500 damage (before resistances) to a single player target with lunge. This far exceeds the highest possible Pulsewave Assault or Sniper Rifle shot damage potential.
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic

    you need a better sniper rifle
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Adrenal Release is a tremendous amount of fun I admit. 50% damage on everything for any character for 10 seconds with only a minute cooldown, sign me up!
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Added Enhanced Personal Shield, Chroniton Mine Barrier, and Active Immunity Mine Field to the list.
    you need a better sniper rifle

    Even [CritD]x3 won't pull off the same level of damage as a fully buffed lunge.
    mimey2 wrote: »
    Adrenal Release is a tremendous amount of fun I admit. 50% damage on everything for any character for 10 seconds with only a minute cooldown, sign me up!

    Indeed, though not all that overpowered considering Strike Team II grants +47% all damage to the entire team for 60 seconds.
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  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Indeed, though not all that overpowered considering Strike Team II grants +47% all damage to the entire team for 60 seconds.

    Fair enough, but on the individual level it is still quite amusing, especially using it to blast away enemies.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • deadly24deadly24 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    02. Kit ability: Lunge
    Issue: Lunge is an extremely powerful knockback ability that also provides 80% shield bypass. However, Lunge may be buffed with other tactical abilities to the point where every hit will one hit kill a player. It is currently possible to deal approximately 5,500 damage (before resistances) to a single player target with lunge. This far exceeds the highest possible Pulsewave Assault or Sniper Rifle shot damage potential.


    Have you run tests, with proof of data, that this is even doable at 5,500 damage? Or are you making the amount up to exaggerate? Last i checked the highest i could Crit it was probably in the 2,500, way BELOW what a shotgun can crit at which is in the 3000-4000 range.

    For all those complaining about lunge DONT crouch. That reduces your damage resist to physical damage by -100 =P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • nulonunulonu Member Posts: 507 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    deadly24 wrote: »
    02. Kit ability: Lunge
    Issue: Lunge is an extremely powerful knockback ability that also provides 80% shield bypass. However, Lunge may be buffed with other tactical abilities to the point where every hit will one hit kill a player. It is currently possible to deal approximately 5,500 damage (before resistances) to a single player target with lunge. This far exceeds the highest possible Pulsewave Assault or Sniper Rifle shot damage potential.


    Have you run tests, with proof of data, that this is even doable at 5,500 damage? Or are you making the amount up to exaggerate? Last i checked the highest i could Crit it was probably in the 2,500, way BELOW what a shotgun can crit at which is in the 3000-4000 range.

    For all those complaining about lunge DONT crouch. That reduces your damage resist to physical damage by -100 =P


    I would call that assertion of 5.5k possible but highly improbable and dependent on multiple factors contributing to it. Should all those be nerfed as well? Nerf sensor scan, nerf FOMM, nerf nanites. Nerf teamwork and coordinated debuffing as well, it's OP. This the problem with Tira's lists. There's too much personal opinion and not enough real bugs. Kudos for the effort to draw attention to problems but still need to learn the difference between opinion and fact. Lunge can hurt if the stars align but most of the time it does nothing hardly. This is coming from someone who personally doesn't like the ability btw.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Just delete ground and get it over with.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    deadly24 wrote: »
    Have you run tests, with proof of data, that this is even doable at 5,500 damage? Or are you making the amount up to exaggerate? Last i checked the highest i could Crit it was probably in the 2,500, way BELOW what a shotgun can crit at which is in the 3000-4000 range.
    5,500 is the highest I've been able to pull off with a lunge to date (Critical hit-flank-expose/exploit-alpha strike). That said, I can hit for 1,100 physical damage (not critical) with just Motion Accelerator and Target Optics, no expose or anything else. An ability with 80% shield bypass and a 12 (6 under tac init) cooldown should not be capable of one hit killing players that reliably. Sniper Rifles and Pulsewaves don't even come close to that level of danger.
    deadly24 wrote: »
    For all those complaining about lunge DONT crouch. That reduces your damage resist to physical damage by -100 =P

    Oh, right, another thing to add to my list. Crouching does not reduce your physical damage resistance rating by -100.
    nulonu wrote: »
    I would call that assertion of 5.5k possible but highly improbable and dependent on multiple factors contributing to it.
    True, I used the upper limit on lunge to demonstrate just how insanely the damage on lunge can be buffed.
    nulonu wrote: »
    This the problem with Tira's lists. There's too much personal opinion and not enough real bugs. Kudos for the effort to draw attention to problems but still need to learn the difference between opinion and fact.
    I created this thread as a concerns directory rather than a bug report directory. This is how previous incarnations of this thread have been set up for both space and ground. Everything on this list is either broken, underperforming, or overperforming on a comparison with available counters in the game. For example; Stasis Field is double resisted by players (underperforming), lunge is capable of easily eliminating players when moderately buffed (overperforming), and plasma grenades are incorrectly interacting with ambush duty officers (broken).
    nulonu wrote: »
    Lunge can hurt if the stars align but most of the time it does nothing hardly. This is coming from someone who personally doesn't like the ability btw.
    I've been using lunge extensively since Season 9 and I've very rarely had it do little damage to targets. The only class that can take high damage lunge hits is Science and that is simply because of Medical Vanguard (immunity to shield bypass for 4 seconds). Even Science can be one hit killed through full health/shields/heals if the lunge is buffed high enough.
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  • tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Oh, right, another thing to add to my list. Crouching does not reduce your physical damage resistance rating by -100.

    The tooltip for crouch says -100 Damage Res vs. Melee, not Physical. Because they don't change the damage resistance in the character profile when you're crouched, I take that "Melee" is separate from "Physical" as far as systems go (and that it is indeed affecting damage), and Melee Res is not being reported in the character profile.
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  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    tk79 wrote: »
    The tooltip for crouch says -100 Damage Res vs. Melee, not Physical. Because they don't change the damage resistance in the character profile when you're crouched, I take that "Melee" is separate from "Physical" as far as systems go (and that it is indeed affecting damage), and Melee Res is not being reported in the character profile.

    This could be the case, but I believe the penalty is not working at the moment. Cryptic had previously attempted to fix this bug during closed beta during Legacy of Romulus. They also added willpower and dodge chance stats to the character information screen. For some reason, these changes never made it to holodeck when Legacy of Romulus went live. Yet, during that time Crouching would actually apply a -100 physical damage resistance rating to your character stats and could be seen in the character information screen.

    The easiest way to see if this is working or not would be to take off one's armor and have someone lunge at you. The damage on the left should be greater than the damage on the right in the combat log if the resistance penalty is actually applying to players while crouched. The last time I checked this was not working and players did not have a penalty while crouched.
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  • nulonunulonu Member Posts: 507 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    This could be the case, but I believe the penalty is not working at the moment. Cryptic had previously attempted to fix this bug during closed beta during Legacy of Romulus. They also added willpower and dodge chance stats to the character information screen. For some reason, these changes never made it to holodeck when Legacy of Romulus went live. Yet, during that time Crouching would actually apply a -100 physical damage resistance rating to your character stats and could be seen in the character information screen.

    The easiest way to see if this is working or not would be to take off one's armor and have someone lunge at you. The damage on the left should be greater than the damage on the right in the combat log if the resistance penalty is actually applying to players while crouched. The last time I checked this was not working and players did not have a penalty while crouched.

    Testing that yielded a 7200 (2300) critical hit.
  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    nulonu wrote: »
    Testing that yielded a 7200 (2300) critical hit.

    That is a straight up lunge without any other factors at play?
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  • nulonunulonu Member Posts: 507 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    That is a straight up lunge without any other factors at play?

    That was fully buffed (no motion accel) flank hit against a crouched target with no armor.
  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    nulonu wrote: »
    That was fully buffed (no motion accel) flank hit against a crouched target with no armor.

    That would explain the reason for the increased damage well beyond expected. Target Optics and especially Flanking would have a major impact on the test results. As would certain reputation and race traits.
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    Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
  • nulonunulonu Member Posts: 507 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    That would explain the reason for the increased damage well beyond expected. Target Optics and especially Flanking would have a major impact on the test results. As would certain reputation and race traits.

    Naturally. Unbuffed hit would have a similar result just not so exaggerated.
  • tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Here is my testing report:

    Damage without armor, standing:

    [9:41] Valjean deals 60 (66) Physical Damage to you with Sword Slash.
    [9:41] Valjean deals 74 (87) Physical Damage to you with Sword Slash.

    Damage without armor, crouching:

    [9:42] Valjean deals 119 (68) Physical Damage to you with Sword Slash.
    [9:43] Valjean deals 111 (64) Physical Damage to you with Sword Slash.

    I also tested it with Sonic Pulse, which deals Physical Damage:

    Standing:

    [9:44] Valjean deals 103 (113) Physical Damage to you with Sonic Pulse III.
    [9:46] Valjean deals 83 (91) Physical Damage to you with Sonic Pulse III.

    Crouching:

    [9:46] Valjean deals 91 (100) Physical Damage to you with Sonic Pulse III.
    [9:47] Valjean deals 87 (96) Physical Damage to you with Sonic Pulse III.

    So, apparently, crouch only decreases resistance against either "melee damage" or "attacks that are flagged as melee" (they deal physical damage).
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  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I'm curious, has anyone mucked around with the tier 1 Undine passive: Mental Acuity?

    Good?
    Bad?
    Ugly?
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • guriphuguriphu Member Posts: 494 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Good. Mental Acuity does exactly what it says on the tin. It is strong but in line with other good passives.
  • frtoasterfrtoaster Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    tk79 wrote: »
    The tooltip for crouch says -100 Damage Res vs. Melee, not Physical. Because they don't change the damage resistance in the character profile when you're crouched, I take that "Melee" is separate from "Physical" as far as systems go (and that it is indeed affecting damage), and Melee Res is not being reported in the character profile.
    This could be the case, but I believe the penalty is not working at the moment. Cryptic had previously attempted to fix this bug during closed beta during Legacy of Romulus. They also added willpower and dodge chance stats to the character information screen. For some reason, these changes never made it to holodeck when Legacy of Romulus went live. Yet, during that time Crouching would actually apply a -100 physical damage resistance rating to your character stats and could be seen in the character information screen.

    The tooltip actually says the same thing now as it did before Legacy of Romulus, even though the patch notes for Legacy of Romulus contain this sentence.
    Melee damage is now more effective against crouching targets.

    Are you saying that this was supposed to be a bug fix as opposed to a change in the amount of damage resistance?
    mimey2 wrote: »
    I'm curious, has anyone mucked around with the tier 1 Undine passive: Mental Acuity?

    Good?
    Bad?
    Ugly?

    The UI numbers seem to indicate that Mental Acuity increases all sources of damage, including melee and engineer fabrications, when you are aiming. The normal increase in damage you get from aiming affects only guns, so the new behavior is somewhat surprising. The tooltip for the passive doesn't specify guns only, but I do find it odd that it works on fabrications, whose targeting you can't control. It makes some sense for Mental Acuity to affect melee attacks, since you have to aim those slashes and kicks.
    Waiting for a programmer ...
    qVpg1km.png
  • tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    mimey2 wrote: »
    I'm curious, has anyone mucked around with the tier 1 Undine passive: Mental Acuity?

    Good?
    Bad?
    Ugly?

    I personally dislike it.

    Originally, Aim affects ranged weapons only, and that trait makes it so it affects everything. Melee weapons and skills, things like Orbital Strike, mines, etc. Other than melee weapons making some use of Aim, I don't see the logic with mostly everything else.

    I can see the intent of the devs trying to get the players to use Aim more often, but that was the wrong way to do it in my opinion.
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  • nulonunulonu Member Posts: 507 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    tk79 wrote: »
    I personally dislike it.

    Originally, Aim affects ranged weapons only, and that trait makes it so it affects everything. Melee weapons and skills, things like Orbital Strike, mines, etc. Other than melee weapons making some use of Aim, I don't see the logic with mostly everything else.

    I can see the intent of the devs trying to get the players to use Aim more often, but that was the wrong way to do it in my opinion.

    Aim always affected engineer fabrications. It never affected mines and orbital strike etc, nor should it. This looks like an error in my opinion.
  • guriphuguriphu Member Posts: 494 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I guess I can see why someone would consider it an error, but it doesn't seem like that to me. It does exactly what it says it does. No fuss, no ifs, no ands, no buts, if you push X your damage goes up by 10% from what it had been without the trait. Every ability in every game should aspire to that.

    As a counter-example to what people are saying: Aim never used to grant a root immunity and now it does, if you have Sure Footed, and there's nothing particularly Aim-y about being immune to roots in a roleplaying sense, but nobody that I've talked to thinks Sure Footed is in error.
  • nulonunulonu Member Posts: 507 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    guriphu wrote: »
    I guess I can see why someone would consider it an error, but it doesn't seem like that to me. It does exactly what it says it does. No fuss, no ifs, no ands, no buts, if you push X your damage goes up by 10% from what it had been without the trait. Every ability in every game should aspire to that.

    As a counter-example to what people are saying: Aim never used to grant a root immunity and now it does, if you have Sure Footed, and there's nothing particularly Aim-y about being immune to roots in a roleplaying sense, but nobody that I've talked to thinks Sure Footed is in error.

    Thats because the sure-footed does exactly what it says it does. I'm not positive of the wording of Mental acuity but if it says all damage and not ranged weapon like normal aiming, I can see your point subu. It's far less cryptic of a description then other abilities in the game.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited May 2014
    Some responses to the first post. These are just off-the-cuff answers, not hard-set promises of changes/fixes.

    (If I'm not commenting on an issue, it needs more investigation)
    04. Kit abilities: Exothermic Induction Field/Hyperonic Radiation

    Sounds like category cooldowns might be in order on these - you shouldn't be able to have >1 actively affecting a target at any time, even with cooldown doffs.
    05. Kit ability: Stasis Field
    Issue: Stasis Field suffers from the obsolete "half duration vs players" penalty that was introduced before the Willpower skill stat. As a result, the duration is cut in half before applying to the player. It is then cut in half again by a player with a decent Willpower skill spec.

    There is a larger investigative process being undertaken as a side project that deals with player Control Resist on Ground, and proper resistances/immunities triggering on expiration. This particular issue is part of that larger process, and already under review.
    06. Kit ability: Nanite Health Monitor
    Issue: Nanite Health Monitor is burning charges while attempting to clear Tactical debuffs such as Fire on my Mark. The healing charges are all burned up, but the debuff is not removed.

    If accurate, a pretty obvious and easily reproducable bug. Should be a relatively simple fix, I think.
    09. Trait: Creative
    Issue: The Creative ground trait is not correctly applying bonus damage and healing to everything within it's designated category. The most obvious example of this is the Engineer's healing ability, Reroute Power to Shields. This issue applies to both the optional version and the Bajoran required trait version.

    A full list would be helpful. The nature of this Trait makes it easy to miss a few abilities on a case-by-case basis.
    10. Innate ability: Run
    Issue: Players may hold down the run key while remaining stationary, yet they maintain the dodge bonus provided by running. The ability to hold run while stationary makes it convenient to hold down run while toggling in between weapon shots for a very high uptime on run's dodge bonus.

    We've been investigating this one, and are considering making the Dodge bonus from Sprint only kick in if your movement speed is >0.
    11. Set bonus passive: Blood of the Warrior
    Issue: The Klingon Honor Guard/Adapted MACO Blood of the Warrior three piece set bonus currently does not work correctly. The bonus critical chance and critical severity is not applied to the player's stats.

    But it is working. Tested this yesterday. The stats apply directly to your weapons, not as global stat buffs. So they don't show on your character sheet because they are situational.

    This is something we'd like to improve on in the future - improving our ability to display both global stat changes, and temporary situational enhancements. But it's a much larger UI project.
    12. Set bonus ability: Omega Distortion Field
    Issue A: The Mk XII and Mk XI versions of the Omega Force distortion field are currently using the damage resistance and stealth ratings from the Mk X set. As a result, the two piece bonus is only granting +60 energy damage resistance instead of the previous +100 energy damage resistance and the Stealth bonus is significantly lower.

    Again, if accurate, should be an easy fix.
    Issue B: The fact that performing any action breaks the stealth bonus has completely removed the ability to use the set ability to shed long range aggro in PvE or PvP.

    The intent behind this is that, in order for this set bonus to benefit you, you must stop acting. Yes, that makes it very situational, but Set Bonuses aren't really supposed to be huge game-changing effects.
    13. Duty officer: Security Officer, +100% damage with Ambush, dealt as a DoT version
    Issue: The duty officer interacts incorrectly with plasma grenade fire patches. When a plasma grenade is thrown while using this duty officer, the plasma grenade fire retains the ambush buff. This results in the plasma fire patch continuously applying DoT on ambush stacks to anything affected by the plasma fire.

    Can confirm this is a bug, if accurate. We'll investigate how to fix it up.
    14. Reputation trait: Enhanced Personal Shield (Tier I New Romulus)
    Issue: The Enhanced Personal Shield Tier I New Romulus trait is disabling the player's personal shield generator after death.
    Status: Fix incoming per CrypticFrost URL="http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16692031&postcount=13"]LINK[/URL

    Yes, a fix is coming. But the description here is also misleading, as the bug is only in the UI, as far as I've been able to reproduce. Even when shields show 0/0, you still have the actual Shields active with the correct resistances and capacity in place.
    15. Kit ability: Chroniton Mine Barrier/Active Immunity Mine Field
    Issue: Chroniton Mine Barrier and Active Immunity Mine Field both have very short cooldowns (20 seconds/2 second deployment) while also dealing very high damage. The minefields are each capable of one hit killing a player after stepping on just 2-3 mines. Additionally, the two types of minefields do not have a shared cooldown. This allows players to stack Chroniton Mine Barrier and Active Immunity Mine Field on top of each other.

    These two Modules should share an Equip Limit category. Same with the Biotech Turret and other turret fabrications. However, adding that in now that players have it equipped may cause some technical issues, so we're investigating whether or not it can be changed.
    16. Mechanic: Weapon Malfunction Immunity
    Issue: Weapon Malfunction Immunity is failing to apply for the intended 30 seconds after a Malfunction debuff is cleansed or expires.

    I believe this one is already fixed internally.

    ---

    Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
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