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Season 9 Dev Blog #14: Raider/Flanking Improvements

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  • macklin01macklin01 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Be romulan fed

    be in tvaro

    point destroyed.

    Thanks, I'll have to look at the tvaro from the bridge of my destroyed Tal Shiar destroyer and destroyed point. :-)
  • warpedcorewarpedcore Member Posts: 362 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Q: The Aquarius Destroyer isn’t on the list. Why?

    A: Many players feel that the Aquarius is a Raider. It does share some similarities between one: some universal seating, 4/2 weapons and reduced hull. It however lacks Cloaking and was never designed to be a Raider. It is considered to be an Escort or Destroyer. Whether it lives up to this ship class’ expectations is a separate discussion. I think most of us can agree that it doesn’t. However, there are no plans at this time to improve this particular starship.

    This is disappointing. Really disappointing. I bought the Aquarius on the assumption that this ship would be upgraded along with the other Raiders. I assumed it was a Raider, because, why else would you make an Escort this gimped. Players assumed there was method to this madness. Apparently, there is not- and we wasted 4 Fleet Ship Modules on the vehicle.
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Now all we need is some more cstore T5 KDF Raiders and their Fleet counterparts....
    Fed: Eng Lib Borg (Five) Tac Andorian (Shen) Sci Alien/Klingon (Maelrock) KDF:Tac Romulan KDF (Sasha) Tac Klingon (K'dopis)
    Founder, member and former leader to Pride Of The Federation Fleet.
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  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    macklin01 wrote: »
    Thanks, I'll have to look at the tvaro from the bridge of my destroyed Tal Shiar destroyer and destroyed point. :-)

    Your point was that feds dont have the ERMAGERD CLOAK VAPE BUILDS FROM HELL

    In fact they do, and feds also have the added advantage of being able to use the cloak detection console off of the Nebula to snoop out KDF toons, rom or not. Something the KDF does not have and is at a severe disadvantage from.

    So at the end of the day, ERMAGERD WE NEEDS MOAR CLOAKS is silly as hell.

    Ive said it before and I will say it again...

    X is OP plz nerf (instead of learning to play)
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    Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    point destroyed.

    Nah, that's not really the point...even though Roms rock the world of both Feds and KDF.

    The point in this case would be more along the lines of...

    "Cryptic has tried for years to fix just how bad some Fed players are - and - they just can't fix how bad some Fed players are."

    You could have them face off against a Kivra...and they'd complain that it was OP. They're just that bad.

    edit: Though, that's what makes Ker'rat zone chat the most entertaining zone chat out there - and - why so many folks have requested the ability to read it anywhere. ;)
  • r5e4w3q2r5e4w3q2 Member Posts: 341 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ... was never designed to be a Raider.

    Well I don't think people necessarily want to be called a raider so much as it to have a flanking bonus. After all, it was designed to be a flanker wasn't it? The whole point of it is to fight in conjunction with the Oddy it launches from? The Oddy hits the target from the front, the Aquarius hits the target from the back?

    Slightly different sure, Raiders are probably designed to work in teams of raiders while the Aquarius is meant to work with a partner cruiser. Attacking the distracted target thing is pretty much the same though, so I see no reason for it not to have some* sort of a flanking bonus.



    *Flavor-wise you could have a lower damage buff, but debuff to targets accuracy or something to play up its slightly more protecting vs destroying job
  • potasssiumpotasssium Member Posts: 1,226 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    walshicus wrote: »
    You guys NEED to reconsider on the Aquarius front. It *IS* a raider in most player's eyes. It makes no sense to keep it out.


    I would happily fly the Aquarius, if the Aquarius was worth flying.

    Right now it is barely better than a shuttlecraft with more weapons ports.

    Make it a proper raider or destroyer, instead of a fancy coffin with warp drive.
    Thanks for the Advanced Light Cruiser, Allied Escort Bundles, Jem-Hadar Light Battlecruiser, and Mek'leth
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    T6 updates for the Kamarag & Vor'Cha
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  • darken1984darken1984 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Am I missing something? The majority of the ships on this list are already powerful enough, they come in cloaked, fully buffed, and can often take targets out in one volley. The proposed changes here will only make it worse, PVP (IMO) will be a bloodbath in favor the KDF.

    Actually you do :) Raiders can be deadly, but if I compare the performace of my ROM fleet dhelan to KDF fleet Norgh, then KDF is much weaker... there is no KDF escort with 5 tactical console slots or with 5 front weapons...

    Feel free to compare:

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_T%27varo_Light_Warbird_Retrofit
    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Dhelan_Warbird_Retrofit

    And

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Norgh_Bird-of-Prey_Retrofit
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    the good

    great, just in time for the pvp ques to go cross faction, so i can actually use my kdf character as often as my fed based. bops might actually be worth using in pve now too. its just to bad there STILL isnt fleet versions of the

    Qaw’Dun
    Ch’Tang
    Hegh’ta

    still, i know id at least be inclined to buy thier c store outfits if i could use them at end game, a 2 fleet mod discount for doing that would be REAL nice too for all these kdf ships that have no c store discount possibility.

    its not like there's no possible setup left for fleet bops to have, i can think of several. how about a 2 eng console, 5 sci console and SA Qaw’Dun? or a 5 fore weapon, maybe 0 aft Ch’Tang? or a Hegh’ta with a 3rd aft weapon, even more hitpoints and like a .83 shield mod, a true heavy bird of prey?


    the bad

    im surprised the dev brought up the aquarius can of worms. it IS a raider, you just choose to call it something else. it has every single raider feature but a battlecloak, but the breen raider's existence removes that requirement for something to be a raider. you could just give it flanking and nothing else for it to be perfectly match the raider requirements. that sir, means its a raider, regardless of how suborn you devs are about this issue. you could at least give the smallest playable ship in game an appropriate 18 or better turn rate, 16 for a ship its size is a joke, and really the only stat it has that doesn't match the ship fairly well.


    the ugly

    this is the same kind of no possible good reason stubbornness that has HURT this game before. namely the EXCLUDING of the galaxy R from any kind of updating, to fix it's worst ship in the game by a mile status, when the GALAXY beboot took place. was that removal of the system cooldown on team skills made especially for that ship? well good job, the galaxy R benefited from that change the least, all the more diverse station setup ships benefited more then it did. there is yet to be an explanation for why this major update took place, and how it could possible exclude the very ship its named for. they couldn't even give it a universal ENS, like they did for the dread and the fleet negvar. there hasn't been an explanation, because there isn't one, other then spite for all the calls for the ship to be fixed. i certainly don't expect a dev to say FU galaxy fans! i hate all your complaining, that's why the galaxy R got nothing! don't worry, this is exactly what the silence on this conveys, you get to say it by not saying anything! well, message received. and now that same spite is back, this time for the aquarius, the second worst ship in the game.


    "Whether it lives up to this ship class’ expectations is a separate discussion. I think most of us can agree that it doesn’t. "

    then there doesn't even need to be a 2 hour staff meeting to debate if an update is necessary. might need a 2 hour meeting to decide WHAT to do with it, but lets just cut to the obvious chase. it should be pretty clear to any one that has ever played this game that small ships have high turn rates, and the aquarius is the smallest, yet its got a large escort 16 turn rate. so.............


    "However, there are no plans at this time to improve this particular starship."

    read: no one at cryptic has the 5 to 30 seconds they would need to change the turn rate number in the excel spread sheet, or the 1 to 5 minutes it would take to change that number in the ship store description.

    even assuming the documentation and the actual submitting of the update burns through an entire 8 hour day for a single employee, one has to really wonder why things like this take longer to address then creating an entire 3rd faction, or an entire dyson sphere full of content.
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Two things:

    First, in general: F*CK. YEAH! F*CK YES!!!!!

    Thank you SO much for giving the KDF some real teeth and a unique style again! Finally we can compete with Superior Romulan Operative/Subterfuge/Superior Infiltrator Rommie vapescorts from hell!

    Second: Aquarius is laughably UP now. Unless you set it up a bit like the Risian Corvette speed demon builds that I've seen rip apart PVP cap-and-splode queues, it's not worth the expense, and even with a speed demon build it's weaksauce. HOWEVER, having said that, I approve of the decision to not "Raider-ify" the Aquarius. Raiders should be a KDF thing, with the exception of the Plesh Brek, which is not really a "true" raider (no cloak, higher flanking damage but no ambush bonus).
  • potasssiumpotasssium Member Posts: 1,226 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    It occurs to me that the term escort is used inappropriately in the game, we often see escort ships what are they escorting?

    how about a new mechanic where the Aquarius games in increased effectiveness from beings and range of carrier commands & cruiser commands? Have it recieve an increased buff from nearby cruisers.
    Thanks for the Advanced Light Cruiser, Allied Escort Bundles, Jem-Hadar Light Battlecruiser, and Mek'leth
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  • sirboulevardsirboulevard Member Posts: 722 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    potasssium wrote: »
    It occurs to me that the term escort is used inappropriately in the game, we often see escort ships what are they escorting?

    The term escort comes from DS9 to describe ships like the Defiant. A warship without the warship name to keep public opinion up.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    QA'PLA!!

    EXCELLENT! I CAN FINALLY MOUNT MY HEGHTA AGAIN!

    Let the fed whine flow like rivers of blood.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • z3ndor99z3ndor99 Member Posts: 1,391 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Oh my, my kdf-rom will stand proud with his bird of prey brothers.... let the fed/fed-rom slaughter begin ( well next week ).
  • vanclifvanclif Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    " It can take some practice, planning and a touch of luck to consistently strike an enemy’s rear arc, but this bonus damage has the potential to quickly make up for Raiders’ reduced number of weapon slots."

    Lol... An avarage / good BoP decloakes and kill its target with its Alpha Strike.
    There is no Luck cause the opponent is mostly dead before he even can react.
    Even if the Rayders have 1 less weapon slot there damage is still enought.

    I already see how it will be in future Ker'rat.
    a BoP decloakes behind you. if you survive its Alpha he will cloak for a second run fom behind which will kill you, or use the Jump Console and fire from behind again.

    And the best Part of the Dev was:

    "To further balance out the risk vs. reward of cloaking attack runs"
    HELLO???
    Which risk do you mean??
    You are invisible and all wat is a risk is:
    Mines: Slow enougth to avoid for a BoP wich is a bestialy fast ship.
    Emision seeking torpedo: even slower as a mine... a bad joke nothing more...
    (I can avoid this in my Negh'Var... and this is far away from being a fast ship)

    The Fact is: a cloaked attack has already far more advantages as disatvantages and now it becomes just OP.

    To give a cloaked attack a disadvantage here are some points you could do:
    -Upgrade the Emission seeking Torpedo: Much faster and usable without target.
    The actual Version is scrap. You need a target to fire a torp thats task is to find cloaked ships you cant target? wtf?? And so slow that everyone, even the slowest can avoid it... oh, btw this PingPingPing is very good... for the Targed... -.-

    - Insert a Tachyon Scan which can used by ALL ships (as Boff ability) and more usefull.
    Example:Tachyon Detection Grid 45-60 Seconds cooldowon, Sience Bridge Officer ability.
    Makes Cloaked Ships into a 10Km radius visible for you and friendly Players within this radius. Lasts for 20 Seconds. (Can be improved by Starship Sensors)
    Lv: I Luitenant Sci (max 5 friendly) II Lieutenant Commander Sci (max 8 Friendly) III Commander Sci (max 10 Friendly)


    But I know: Cryptic/Pwe wuldn't be what it is, if they hear to that, what the comunitiy wishes...
  • jaturnleyjaturnley Member Posts: 1,218 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    warpedcore wrote: »
    This is disappointing. Really disappointing. I bought the Aquarius on the assumption that this ship would be upgraded along with the other Raiders. I assumed it was a Raider, because, why else would you make an Escort this gimped. Players assumed there was method to this madness. Apparently, there is not- and we wasted 4 Fleet Ship Modules on the vehicle.

    That was a pretty poor assumption to make, considering the devs on more than one occasion said that it was not a raider and would not be getting the flank bonus back in December.
  • zeuxidemus001zeuxidemus001 Member Posts: 3,357 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You are joking right? B'rel ships are KDF vaper's choices, a good vap can take out most players in one attack.

    You basically don't seem to understand what I was saying. The EBC is the enhanced battle cloak mode its not a "vaper". Although without raiding even if you tried to use it as a "vaper" it wouldn't work there was never enough tactical console power to pull it off against a player. The whole purpose of this blog imo is proof enough of that for them to even to go to spending actual time to make changes to the raiders/bops.

    Back when tactical consoles had diminishing returns though and ships were somewhat balanced in this area they were great in that regard but they kinda fell off with the marketing for the lockbox, defiant/mvae fleet ships, and the romulan ships.

    So what I was originally referring to is there isn't much of any tactics to use that can combat tactical team/shield distribution when it comes to trying to use it as a torpedo bomber. I just hope they put some more emphasis on which is the rear facing when it comes to ships like borg cubes where its difficult to see which is the actual rear facing. Although would be nice if they had the red flash animation on b'rel like in the movie it had. As well some new doffs when they do a new doff pack so that maybe you can use some tactics to actually make the b'rel a viable bomber with some assistance of some doffs. IMO though if they were to put in something that incrementally increased shield penetration based on rarity of the doff and 1,2, or 3 of tactical team to actually make tactical team 3 a useful skill for a b'rel lol. Although I don't really care about pvp in this game I have another game for that but mainly at the least I would like this as a maybe pve only option to get better immersion and not step on any toes.
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Many players feel that the Aquarius is a Raider. It does share some similarities between one: some universal seating, 4/2 weapons and reduced hull. It however lacks Cloaking and was never designed to be a Raider. It is considered to be an Escort or Destroyer. Whether it lives up to this ship class’ expectations is a separate discussion. I think most of us can agree that it doesn’t. However, there are no plans at this time to improve this particular starship.

    Everyone knows it sucks, but we have no plan to fix it. Makes sense... not. :rolleyes: Aquarius is as much of a raider as the Breen ship is, as designed now.
    Sometimes I think I play STO just to have something to complain about on the forums.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    hevach wrote: »
    I'm pretty much fine with it being an escort, but as it is right now, it's not an escort. It's basically what the Danube used to be before The Vault made it useful - a thing you could buy and then occasionally notice it in your ship list while you changed between ships that weren't it. The only difference is that it's tier 5 and not tier 1, but Aquarius vs. Defiant now is a pretty similar comparison to Danube vs. Miranda then.
    It's also a Destroyer without the transformation ability.

    Except if you wanna count it turning into the Odyssey's suppository. O.o
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vanclif wrote: »
    But I know: Cryptic/Pwe wuldn't be what it is, if they hear to that, what the comunitiy wishes...

    Some of us are eternally grateful that Cryptic tends not to take action on the pathetic whinings of the pathetic masses with their pathetic understanding of mechanics and their pathetic ability to do the simplest things...

    Not saying you're one of those pathetic people...just saying some of us are grateful that Cryptic doesn't take too much action based on the pathetic comments from that pathetic aspect of the community.
  • vanclifvanclif Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    orangeitis wrote: »
    It's also a Destroyer without the transformation ability.

    Except if you wanna count it turning into the Odyssey's suppository. O.o


    The transformation ability is not the feature of a destroyer... A destroyer in STO except the aquarius is a mix of Escort and Cruiser. More hull as an escort but faster as a cruiser and firepower of an escort. The Aquarius is a light escort for me and far far away from being a destroyer.

    But why the hell everyone cry about the aquarius?? No matter if this useless piece of scrap get this upgrades. The BoP, which get it, wil become horrible now...
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vanclif wrote: »
    But why the hell everyone cry about the aquarius??

    Because Fed. players need to fill a daily quota of whining about something, otherwise their sky might fall on them.
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • blessedladyboyblessedladyboy Member Posts: 349 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Great change and I look forward to it but let's not be silly...the currenrly available bops are still not in the same league as a tvaro.
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  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Should one laugh or cry at the idea that the easiest ship to kill ingame is still being touted as the fed boogeyman so many years after beta when the roms are so much better at the decloak alpha?

    At the same time it makes me smile to think that the BOP so brutalized the fed at one time that they still flinch and wet themselves in fear.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • warpedcorewarpedcore Member Posts: 362 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    jaturnley wrote: »
    That was a pretty poor assumption to make, considering the devs on more than one occasion said that it was not a raider and would not be getting the flank bonus back in December.

    I'm unfortunately forced to agree, it was a poor assumption on my part. But, I assumed 'if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.." etc. My own fault.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Should one laugh or cry at the idea that the easiest ship to kill ingame is still being touted as the fed boogeyman so many years after beta when the roms are so much better at the decloak alpha?

    At the same time it makes me smile to think that the BOP so brutalized the fed at one time that they still flinch and wet themselves in fear.

    Boogeyman is pretty much the term for it. I bet if Cryptic sold a DOFF that checks under the bed and in the closet, it would be the only thing they'd need to sell to fund the game until the end of time...
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Should one laugh or cry at the idea that the easiest ship to kill ingame is still being touted as the fed boogeyman so many years after beta when the roms are so much better at the decloak alpha?

    At the same time it makes me smile to think that the BOP so brutalized the fed at one time that they still flinch and wet themselves in fear.

    People need to finally realize one thing after so many years.....it's not the ship, it's the people in the Captain's chair.
    Like that one guy/gal I've seen around this forum that has a signature saying "KDF doesn't have OP ships, it has OP players" or sth. like that. :D
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • warpedcorewarpedcore Member Posts: 362 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Great change and I look forward to it but let's not be silly...the currenrly available bops are still not in the same league as a tvaro.

    Leave it to a Klingon to know all about the whining. :D
  • vengefuldjinnvengefuldjinn Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    lan451 wrote: »
    lol "We know that the Aquarius sucks, but we aren't going to do anything about it. lololololol!"

    Aquarius,Galaxy ... :rolleyes:
    this is the same kind of no possible good reason stubbornness that has HURT this game before. namely the EXCLUDING of the galaxy R from any kind of updating, to fix it's worst ship in the game by a mile status, when the GALAXY beboot took place. was that removal of the system cooldown on team skills made especially for that ship? well good job, the galaxy R benefited from that change the least, all the more diverse station setup ships benefited more then it did. there is yet to be an explanation for why this major update took place, and how it could possible exclude the very ship its named for. they couldn't even give it a universal ENS, like they did for the dread and the fleet negvar. there hasn't been an explanation, because there isn't one, other then spite for all the calls for the ship to be fixed. i certainly don't expect a dev to say FU galaxy fans! i hate all your complaining, that's why the galaxy R got nothing! don't worry, this is exactly what the silence on this conveys, you get to say it by not saying anything! well, message received. and now that same spite is back, this time for the aquarius, the second worst ship in the game.

    Exactly ^^^
    tumblr_o2aau3b7nh1rkvl19o1_400.gif








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