Shoehorn the Orions together with the Republic? Where do you see that? Ohhh, I get it. More Straw Man caricatures of what I have to say. Thanks, but either pay closer attention or don't bother to attempt mockery of your own misrepresentation of what I've said.
I don't see how that's a misrepresentation, when you say things like:
"Romulans are destined to rule the stars. You Federation types will also fall beneath the raptor's wings, after the Klingons petition for membership in the New Romulan Republic, at the behest of the Orions. Then there will be only one faction: Romulan. A glorious day that shall be!"[/QUOTE]
Pretty much anytime you mention Orions and Romulans within the same post. Now there isn't much basis for a Orion-Republic alliance, but that hasn't stopped you from envisioning it-good for you RP and all that can be fun. But I think there's no small amount of hypocrisy involved when you also tell RSE supporters that their desire to play as the Star Empire is and never was feasible or appropriate.
And wanting the cartoon bird available for the underside of all Romulan vessels *is* a rather niche request, and while options are nice and all that, I think there's a bigger cry for Romulans who act more like the Romulans from the shows.
As for the RSE, if it were the RSE of TOS, I would be all for it, but your "arrogant," and "xenophobic," and "condescending" TNG/DS9 "Romulans" are never going to be a playable faction in this game, unless a major shift in policy were to come about.
If you think 'bad guy' factions are not feasible for STO, then I suggest you take a look at the KDF content you so clearly play (running a KDF fleet and being so fond of Orions) Slavery, murder, assassination, death camps, extortion, summary executions, bribery, biological weapons, torture and general oppression of both their own people, war captives, and civilians. Pretty much the full range of things I imagine the RSE would be capable of.
And the Tal'Shiar have never been anything other than paranoid and sociopathic thugs, except in their very inception, from which state they fell rather rapidly into what they became. Pretend all you want that the series did not portray them as such, but it won't make it true.
There were examples of non-stupid-evil Tal Shiar in the series. There was Koval and the Tal Shiar In the dominion prison camp. If you want to talk about 'bad' Romulans, there are many, many examples of 'evil' Romulans who were not Tal SHiar, probably more than there are of evil Tal Shiar. Sela, Tomalak, etc are the most obvious examples, with many individuals in the military, government, and even your Romulan Intelligence which did very, very bad things. I freely admit that not all Romulans were entirely evil, but this is a two way street here, and fact of the matter is most Romulans were pretty bad in one way or another, as much as some might pretend that it wasn't the case.
Most of the so-called "legitimate complaints about the character of the Republic Romulans" amount to claims that they are space hippies, a ripoff of the Rebel Alliance from Star Wars, eager to crawl up the Vulcans' rears, and other misrepresentations, caricatures, and just plain ol' sour grapes that you don't get to play the villain.
This was Hyperbole and you should know this. It doesn't discredit their complaints in any way. And Cryptic themselves has gone on record saying their sources of inspiration, so I'd recommend going back and reading/listening to the old interviews.
I don't see how that's a misrepresentation, when you say things like:
Yeah, that was me mocking the creator of the thread. You've heard of satire, have you not? The suggestion that the KDF and NRR should be replaced with something else is satire-worthy.
Pretty much anytime you mention Orions and Romulans within the same post. Now there isn't much basis for a Orion-Republic alliance, but that hasn't stopped you from envisioning it-good for you RP and all that can be fun. But I think there's no small amount of hypocrisy involved when you also tell RSE supporters that their desire to play as the Star Empire is and never was feasible or appropriate.
I don't think I've mentioned Orions and Romulans much simultaneously, except when I'm referring to a rather obvious reality of the NRR alliance with the "Klingon Empire" as being actually with the Orion Syndicate. This may not be entirely comfortable for you (for whatever reason), but there's more than implication that this is the case.
And wanting the cartoon bird available for the underside of all Romulan vessels *is* a rather niche request, and while options are nice and all that, I think there's a bigger cry for Romulans who act more like the Romulans from the shows.
Like it or not, that bird is the thing most of us old enough to remember the Romulans before the revisionism of TNG recall as a Romulan logo. And your constant refusal to admit that the Romulans of TOS were not like the Romulans you so idolize is a huge part of the tension. I admit it. The Romulans of TOS were not like the predominant representation of Romulans in TNG and all later series. To me, that says something happened in between TOS and TNG. Non-canon it may be, but the explanation that the Tal'Shiar was formed after TOS during the Praetorship of Narviat is the most sensible explanation.
If you think 'bad guy' factions are not feasible for STO, then I suggest you take a look at the KDF content you so clearly play (running a KDF fleet and being so fond of Orions) Slavery, murder, assassination, death camps, extortion, summary executions, bribery, biological weapons, torture and general oppression of both their own people, war captives, and civilians. Pretty much the full range of things I imagine the RSE would be capable of.
I run a Romulan fleet. It is allied with the Orion Syndicate (or, since you have already previously demonstrated that you are in denial of the rather obvious reality of the situation, the Klingon Empire). I was presented with a false dilemma by the game, in which I had to choose an alliance, with either the UFP or the Orion Syndicate. The Romulans have been allied with the Klingon Empire at least once in the past (more likely, at least twice). When meeting with the UFP's delegates, we learn rather quickly that Admiral T'Nae is an arrogant racist and that Jiro Sugihara is everything that you and your fellow imperialists are constantly trying to paint D'Tan as being. The Klingons are initially not very trusting or friendly, but that changes with Temer's self-sacrifice, and they offer alliance. Then and only then does the UFP delegation fall over themselves to offer alliance, terrified that the KDF will gain an advantage if they do not. The Klingons and the Orions have their faults (including their imperialism), but they're also fairly honest about them (and explicit about being an empire), while the UFP tries to cover up its own war crimes and pretend to be something other than an empire (when that is obviously not the case).
There were examples of non-stupid-evil Tal Shiar in the series. There was Koval and the Tal Shiar In the dominion prison camp. If you want to talk about 'bad' Romulans, there are many, many examples of 'evil' Romulans who were not Tal SHiar, probably more than there are of evil Tal Shiar. Sela, Tomalak, etc are the most obvious examples, with many individuals in the military, government, and even your Romulan Intelligence which did very, very bad things. I freely admit that not all Romulans were entirely evil, but this is a two way street here, and fact of the matter is most Romulans were pretty bad in one way or another, as much as some might pretend that it wasn't the case.
I worked at a correctional facility. Every inmate (with very rare exceptions) claimed to be innocent of whatever had landed them there, and were on their best behavior in my presence. In the case of Internment Camp 371, the Jem'Hadar kept their weapons set to maximum and would use them on the inmates for any infraction. You wouldn't seriously expect the Tal'Shiar there to show their true colors, would you? Sela was arguably a former operative of the Tal'Shiar. The Path to 2409 describes her thus (under the year 2384):
"Sela, a human-Romulan hybrid with extensive experience in the military and intelligence fields, has been a part of several major Romulan operations, including a failed attempt to invade Vulcan and coordinating support for the House of Duras attempt to take over the Klingon High Council in 2367."
If she had been a Military Intelligence operative, I would expect that to have been stated. But no, "military and intelligence." What is the Romulan Intelligence agency in and before 2384? Ah, yes: the Tal'Shiar. Tomalak was not atypical of military hawks from other species. "My" Romulan Intelligence? You mean the Tal'Diann, the Romulan Military Internal Affairs and Military Intelligence agency, an organization never once mentioned in canon? Ahh, yes, you must again mean the Tal'Shiar, which is hardly "my" Romulan Intelligence.
I am quite certain that I have stated repeatedly that the predominant depiction of Romulans in TNG and the later series were rather unsavory characters, but exceptions to that portrayal also exist in those same series. The predominant depiction was of Tal'Shiar and military personnel. To extrapolate from their behavior to a claim that "most Romulans" were like that is again a classic example of Non Sequitur, specifically the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization. And again, the majority of Romulans depicted in TOS were quite the opposite, but that's not convenient for your stereotypical view of "most Romulans."
This was Hyperbole and you should know this. It doesn't discredit their complaints in any way. And Cryptic themselves has gone on record saying their sources of inspiration, so I'd recommend going back and reading/listening to the old interviews.
Oh, I'm well aware that it was hyperbole. Such exaggerations are common in propaganda efforts. Another technique used in concert with hyperbole is repetition over and over again in an effort to drown out any rational objections and present the false impression that there is no other view worthy of consideration -- oh, yes, and the mockery of those making rational objections.
Now what are those complaints again? Something about how the New Romulan Republic is not acting like Romulans from the shows? Keras and Di'on Charvon. Keras' friend and comrade "the Centurion." Honor, no xenophobia, no arrogance, giving quarter to captured foes, yeah, that's how Romulans behaved in THE show before the Tal'Shiar spread its culture of terror and intimidation throughout the Star Empire, and how "most Romulans" still felt (albeit clandestinely) even after the Tal'Shiar had made themselves feared.
Hi Proto, I'd quote you and respond but I am wary of adding a whole nother page to this by myself. So on that note I'll try to be succinct about this: You and your TOS Romulans are outnumbered 100 to 1 so get over yourself.
Also because I hate to digress so I'll say this expanding on the thread: I would not mind a bowl cut with a ponytail. Also a sword with a Romulan theme would be nice.
I find that in order to make the whole greater, you need to include all the parts, even those you don't like. But that was never the issue here. They never included any parts. They dropped them on the floor, and promptly threw the empty shell through the welcoming door. With a few dismissible lines hinting at what came before.
This thread is a testiment to the hollowness of such an empty solution.
I would think hostile xenophobic Romulans would be a better representation given that the vast majority of episodes by a wide margin showed them to be hostile and manipulative.
Cryptic seemed to pick the odd balls out of the group and decided they were the norm for Romulans. Sure cultures can change but I believe most people want STO to be representative of the shows we watched. Imagine if odd balls like Alexander were considered the norm for Klingons...the Klingon Empire would fall in a week.:P
And to add to my wish list...Maybe we could get some Reman weapons and the Viceroy's overcoat. Also the Reman character models need touching up so they look more like the Reman in the movie and less like...Ferengi
Its proto dude... if it isn't her version then its wrong and she will type up war & peace sized rants on why. Trying to debate/debunk or even just wake her up to reality is, very sadly, just feeding the troll.
I believe most people want STO to be representative of the shows we watched.
I watched TOS long before the whippersnappers made TNG and turned the Romulans into something they never were before. I want STO to be representative of TOS.
I want a T5 Romulan D7, and ... wait for it ... a T5 Connie. That would be representative of the shows I watched, but apparently, "most people" are dead set against a T5 Connie, even if CBS were not.
Its proto dude... if it isn't her version then its wrong and she will type up war & peace sized rants on why. Trying to debate/debunk or even just wake her up to reality is, very sadly, just feeding the troll.
I'm the troll? Look, he quoted something I said in another thread, and then claimed he wasn't misrepresenting what I said there in his earlier post, using the quote as supposed evidence. And yet, that quote was me mocking someone for suggesting something as ridiculous as getting rid of the Klingon and Romulan factions -- and I think that the satirical nature of the post was apparent to most people who read it.
My replies to each point are only "long" because of the inclusion of what I'm replying to; take out the quoted bits, and my replies are generally no longer than what I'm replying to, but again, the fact that I take the time to refute every point is seized upon as another target for another ad Hominem attack, because you cannot "debunk" what I have said. I use logical argumentation and evidence. You guys just bark and rage because I have shown, and continue to show, that you're a minority, and that Cryptic's storyline for the Romulans is entirely consistent with canon.
Sometimes I think I have given you guys too much credit.
I would think hostile xenophobic Romulans would be a better representation given that the vast majority of episodes by a wide margin showed them to be hostile and manipulative.
Lets look at that claim, shall we? For the record, Im going to treat hostility as personal hostility, not political hostility, as personal hostility shows more about the culture than their political stance, and its the culture that is constantly at debate here.
Wikpedia has a list of Romulan Stories, well go through them chronologically. I am also only touching on episodes where the Romulans appeared as themselves, rather than as ideas or hallucinations (as those are not reflective of the Romulans as a people, but rather what outsiders think OF them), and going by series.
Balance of Terror Introductory Romulan episode. They are introduced as a reclusive power that earth once fought a war against a hundred years prior. They are shown as political hostile, but not personally hostile in this episode. There is no manipulation portrayed here at all, unless you count tactical move and counter moves between Kirk and the Romulan Commander.
The Enterprise Incident No manipulation by the Romulans, they were in fact the ones being manipulated. No hostility in the least, and in fact they are downright hospitable and open despite having their space invaded.
The Neutral Zone No manipulation, both sides encountered each other, got the information they wanted and withdrew, some personal hostility I will grant, definitely a change in tone from TOS, but more a general arrogance than directed against others personally.
Contagion No manipulation, some hostility, though the Yamato and Enterprise did violate the Neutral Zone, which given the history weve seen on screen, the Romulans have every right to be hostile about Federation ships coming into the Zone.
The Enemy No manipulation, hostility based on damning circumstances for the Enterprise, that is resolved when the truth is revealed. Further willing cooperation between a Romulan and Federation to survive. There is also some personal hostility in the episode between the Romulan and Worf, but it cuts both ways, reflecting on both Worf and the Romulan in question.
The Defector This is where the manipulative political side of the Romulans first appears concerning Admiral Jaroks test of loyalty. Interestingly, Jarok does not consider himself irregular for the Romulans, nor do the other Romulans seem surprised he failed his test. The Romulans are again hostile in an antagonist role, but again, due to a Federation violation of the Neutral Zone. That said, they did set it up to happen, so here is where we begin to see the shift.
Tin Man No manipulation, antagonistic relationship competing over a potential resource (the titular Tin Man in a system claimed by the Romulans but outside their actual sphere of control. Limited communications happen with the Romulans in this episode, but their hostility is mostly directed at the Tin Man for destroying one of their own, and incidentally at the Enterprise for trying to stop them.
Datas Day Manipulation in the Cloak and Dagger spy sense based on an operation to recover a deep cover agent. Hostility when the Enterprise violates the Neutral Zone in an attempt to stop their retrieval operation. All political and not very personal in flavor.
The Minds Eye Definitely manipulation, plotting and scheming and the introduction of Sela. Generally a well-received episode, and likely one of the ones people strongly associate with how Romulans operate.
Redemption Some manipulation, though the Federation is arguably also doing the same thing (backing their favored side in the Klingon Empire). They are more of a bit player here though, simply supporting the Duras family than being the primary actors.
Unification This one is the first glance we get of non-military/intelligence Romulans, and they are a clearly repressed, but not really hostile folk. There is definitely manipulation, but the majority of the hostility comes not from the Romulans, but from Sela.
The Next Phase No real manipulation, but some plotting against the Enterprise to try and preserve state secrets. Some hostility based on those same issues, but not personal.
Face of the Enemy Im not sure to call this manipulation or not. Definitely subterfuge on the part of Reunificationists, but I have trouble holding this one on the Romulans as cultural manipulation seeing as how this was dissenters escaping a tyrannical government story, and this kind of story is rife throughout history without having cultures that are inherently manipulative. There was no xenophobic hostility, the only hostility shown was towards the Tal Shiar.
Birthright No manipulation, no hostility, and a stark lack of xenophobia of any kind. Also Romulans showing mercy and honor.
The Chase No manipulation, some hostility in the political, but not personal, sense. In fact, out of all the parties there it is only the Federation and the Romulans who are receptive to the idea of peace, with the Romulans echoing their original idea of not so different.
Timescape No manipulation, no hostility. Shows the Romulans to be rational actors.
The Pegasus No manipulation, political hostility and rage at the Federation for breaking a major treaty with the development of a Phase Cloaking Device.
The Search The first DS9 episode on the list and involves the introduction of the Defiant. No Romulan manipulation, no hostility. The Romulans are ALSO sharing their most VALUABLE military secret here, not the act of xenophobes or paranoid irrational actors.
Visionary No manipulation, though there is plotting. Arrogance, but no real hostility. It should also be noted that out of all the players in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, it is the Romulans who first identified the Dominion as a real threat and were trying to act to stave off the war before it began. They did take underhanded means to do it, but, as the Vulcans say: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Improbable Cause No manipulation by the Romulans (a massive amount by the Cardassians and Dominion though). No hostility. Again, the Romulans seem prescient in their efforts to undercut the Dominion. It should be further noted that the Romulans of this episode were the Tal Shiar, acting without authorization of the Empire. It should also be noted that the actions of the Tal Shiar were not guided by a Romulan, but by a Founder
The Die Is Cast See above, as its direct continues the story in Improbably Cause.
By Infernos Light No manipulation, no hostility to anyone other than the Dominion. The Romulans also continue to act against the Dominion committing significant forces to aid in the defense of DS9.
In a Pale Moonlight No manipulation by the Romulans (meanwhile the Federation conspires, and succeeds in, assassinating a Romulan representative), hostility from the Romulans only once they discover they are being manipulated with false information.
Image in the Sand Listed on Wikipedia, but not really involving the Romulans outside of the ongoing Dominion War arc and them establishing an outpost on DS9. Not going to count this one either way.
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges Manipulation by pretty much everyone, but the primary actors here are Federation, not Romulan. No hostility.
Eye of the Needle Voyager episode. No hostility, no manipulation. The Romulans involved, in fact, are downright hospitable and friendly compared to other appearances, and this is one of the few times we have a Romulan whos not a member of the military or government in a role of importance. As such, hes an excellent insight into the Romulans as a people when theyre not having to act as the face of the Empire and he is well, merciful, honorable, friendly and altruistic. Furthermore, he believes that the Senate will be as well given Voyagers circumstances. Given, he may have been an idealist in that, but hes the closest we ever get to a Romulan everyman, and hes a downright decent fellow.
Message in a Bottle A spy thriller esq episode reminiscent of their actions in Datas Day. I am hesitant to call spy operations indicative of the culture writ large, as they ALWAYS involve manipulation. No hostility in a personal sense, just as an antagonistic power to the Federation.
Minefield First Enterprise episode, no manipulation, hostility to unknown species in their territory. I personally hate this episode as it shows Romulans with cloaking before Romulans had cloaking.
KirShara Manipulation of the Vulcans (does that count?), no hostility.
Babel One Manipulation to attempt to prevent the establishment of a strong alliance structure. No hostility outside of a political sense.
United Manipulation to attempt to prevent the establishment of a strong alliance structure. Hostility due to that.
Aenar Same as their previous appearances on Enterprise.
With that were done the series. To touch on the Romulans in the movies, they have a small role in Star Trek VI as part of the anti-Khitomer conspiracy (though the extent and what role the Romulan Ambassador played is unknown, so we cant label them as manipulating here or hostile), and featured heavily in Nemesis and Star Trek 2009. In Nemesis we dont see much hostility from the Romulans, its the Remans who are hostile, and the Romulans act with honor, especially Dontara. In Star Trek 2009 we have Nero and his crew, who are Romulan everymen. They are not xenophobic or manipulative, they are hostile though (but given what they have gone through, it cannot be said that they are acting as normal for their culture).
So 34 Major Romulan stories seen. Of those 11 involve clear Romulan manipulations, which is one third of their appearances (not a majority). As to hostility they are constantly shown as hostile to the Federation when the Federation is the biggest player around, which makes sense given their role as an antagonist in the setting and as a rival great power, but it is nearly always political hostility, not personal, and not xenophobic. They also definitely prefer the devil they know (the Federation) to the devil they dont (the Dominion), and they were consistently shown to be willing to throw down in defense of their neighbors, even when their neighbors didnt want their help.
That said, they are constantly portrayed as a proud to the point of arrogant people, which STO does show somewhat, but it could use a touch more of, but it is always the higher ranked Romulans who showed the worst of that attitude, more rank and file were only jingoistic perhaps, proud of who they were, but not arrogant.
It should also be noted, that if we did a similar list for the Cardassians, we would come up with similar numbers, but nobody complains that in STO the Cardassians are shown as peaceful republicans who are no longer hostile and manipulating. Why? Because it makes sense given what happened onscreen. The STO portrayal of Romulans also fits what happened on screen to their people, and STO moves their story forward, not perfectly, but it does. You may not like the direction they took, but there are seeds of it throughout Star Trek and even more so in secondary sources which Cryptic clearly drew on.
The Romulans have not been portrayed by the "vast majority" of episodes as " hostile and manipulative". Portrayals Romulans as manipulative made up 1/3rd of their total appearances in ALL OF STAR TREK. They were consistently an antagonist in a dramatic sense, but personal hostility towards outside races and xenophobia were nearly nil. In fact, the only time they were portrayed as xenophobic would be their four appearances in Enterprise.
I watched TOS long before the whippersnappers made TNG and turned the Romulans into something they never were before. I want STO to be representative of TOS.
I want a T5 Romulan D7, and ... wait for it ... a T5 Connie. That would be representative of the shows I watched, but apparently, "most people" are dead set against a T5 Connie, even if CBS were not.
I'm the troll? Look, he quoted something I said in another thread, and then claimed he wasn't misrepresenting what I said there in his earlier post, using the quote as supposed evidence. And yet, that quote was me mocking someone for suggesting something as ridiculous as getting rid of the Klingon and Romulan factions -- and I think that the satirical nature of the post was apparent to most people who read it.
My replies to each point are only "long" because of the inclusion of what I'm replying to; take out the quoted bits, and my replies are generally no longer than what I'm replying to, but again, the fact that I take the time to refute every point is seized upon as another target for another ad Hominem attack, because you cannot "debunk" what I have said. I use logical argumentation and evidence. You guys just bark and rage because I have shown, and continue to show, that you're a minority, and that Cryptic's storyline for the Romulans is entirely consistent with canon.
Sometimes I think I have given you guys too much credit.
If you want a debunk here it is: According to the Appendices on the Romulan page of Memory Alpha the Romulans appeared 59 times in Star Trek, even if you are generous and include TAS as 'your' classic Romulans then only 6 of those appearances include them. They are not in any movie or in any episode after that and no societal revolution is mentioned ANYWHERE to change the Romulans. On the contrary if you just go by what see on screen then the OG Romulans are still cold sly operators such as in "The Survivor" when send a spy to force the Enterprise into Romulan space so they can steal it, and in "The Practical Joker when they speak attack the Enterprise in neutral territory. Even when you include your precious Diane Duane novels it is shown that most of the Empire is more interested in spying espionage and sneak attacks then fair fights and honor (even Tafv the main Romulan's son)
Also you tend toward ad Hominem a lot more than you opponents do while using the same argument over and over.
Once again since I am on this thread which isn't here for me and Proto to fight I'll add some more wishes: a ground trait called "Reman Commando which increases speed for Remans with it. Also shoulderpads that look more like bird heads and checker pattern capes.
If you want a debunk here it is: According to the Appendices on the Romulan page of Memory Alpha the Romulans appeared 59 times in Star Trek, even if you are generous and include TAS as 'your' classic Romulans then only 6 of those appearances include them. They are not in any movie or in any episode after that and no societal revolution is mentioned ANYWHERE to change the Romulans. On the contrary if you just go by what see on screen then the OG Romulans are still cold sly operators such as in "The Survivor" when send a spy to force the Enterprise into Romulan space so they can steal it, and in "The Practical Joker when they speak attack the Enterprise in neutral territory. Even when you include your precious Diane Duane novels it is shown that most of the Empire is more interested in spying espionage and sneak attacks then fair fights and honor (even Tafv the main Romulan's son)
I don't think I've mentioned Orions and Romulans much simultaneously, except when I'm referring to a rather obvious reality of the NRR alliance with the "Klingon Empire" as being actually with the Orion Syndicate. This may not be entirely comfortable for you (for whatever reason), but there's more than implication that this is the case.
Oh boy.....nope, I'm not even gonna' ask. *shakes head*
I watched TOS long before the whippersnappers made TNG and turned the Romulans into something they never were before. I want STO to be representative of TOS.
I want a T5 Romulan D7, and ... wait for it ... a T5 Connie. That would be representative of the shows I watched, but apparently, "most people" are dead set against a T5 Connie, even if CBS were not.
Exactly, YOU want these things. A T5 Connie would be a bad idea because they're outdated by almost 150 years.
We saw a whopping total of 2 Romulan captains in TOS, whereas we saw much more in TNG, and therefore they are more representative to their
species. If you want "honourable species" play the KDF, with Klingons. If STO where representative of TOS, then there'd be connies, D7s and T'Liss'
flying everywhere. D7s are shown in TNG and DS9, whereas Constitution and T'Liss' are outdated. It'd be like everybody driving around in Ford Thunderbirds, despite them being from around the 1960s. Barely anyone does. Constitutions are outdated in tech, and they'd be smashed to pieces in a war.
Just accept that TNG Romulans are cooler, 'cause they are.
I watched TOS long before the whippersnappers made TNG and turned the Romulans into something they never were before. I want STO to be representative of TOS.
I want a T5 Romulan D7, and ... wait for it ... a T5 Connie. That would be representative of the shows I watched, but apparently, "most people" are dead set against a T5 Connie, even if CBS were not.
TOS only had three episodes with Romulans in it you can't define a species based on a handful of episodes just because they came first. If we did that STO would have TOS Klingons with no head ridges and goatees.:P It's the series afterwards that put Romulans on the map with continuous episodes that far exceed the TOS episodes in numbers.
Lets look at that claim, shall we? For the record, Im going to treat hostility as personal hostility, not political hostility, as personal hostility shows more about the culture than their political stance, and its the culture that is constantly at debate here.
I've read over your list through and it's good but I question your conclusions. I've noticed you missed several important details which would counter dict your statements.
I'll try and write a response to each episode later can't do it off the top of my head.;) Watching every single Romulan episode will take some time.
Also I will not discriminate political hostility from personal hostility as I feel this is an error in judgement. Political environments are still part of a culture and should not be swept aside to do so would ignore the political structure of a culture and it's behavior.
Mostly for me I'd just want to see a Romulan Carrier and some nice Sci ship options (Not one that is built to be more of a Tac ship) I suppose a more agile cruiser/battlecruiser would be nice too. Something with a turn rate higher than the Scimitar...like 8-10 range.
Also I will not discriminate political hostility from personal hostility as I feel this is an error in judgement. Political environments are still part of a culture and should not be swept aside to do so would ignore the political structure of a culture and it's behavior.
I probably should expand on that some. I'll agree that it reflects on a culture, but political hostility does not translate to Xenophobia or a culture of hatred, and has causes other than culture (for instance, stances taken based on political policy). Many of the times hostility was shown was in times where it is justifiable, but that's subjective and so harder to place.
For instance, "The Neutral Zone", the Romulans initially thought the Federation had attacked their colonies. When you approach a ship from a force you suspect had just been attacking, you're not going to be nice to them, and you're going to take a posture of strength. It's also an understandable attitude to take when a treaty is violated (IE "Contagion" and "The Pegasus"). That said, they did create circumstances where they'd have an excuse to be hostile ("The Defector").
Bearing in my the circumstances presented in the show, the Romulans were an equal of the Federation, or they wanted to be considered as one. Therefor they needed to act from a position of strength and save face. As they were a competitor for space and resources, of course they were hostile as a political position... not to step on any forum rules... but look at how China and Russia act. Their culture and people are quite friendly and hospitable, but on the world stage they can act with considerable hostility and aggression.
This is one of the reasons I put more weight on the the DS9 and Voyager portrayals of Romulans than TNG, as those showed the Romulans not when they are acting hostile as part of international policy, but when they don't need to showing strength and keep what they consider potentially hostile neighbors at bay. In those circumstances, they didn't show any of the outright hostility they showed in TNG (though they were still arrogant, though I don't think anyone here disagrees that the Romulans are arrogant).
(though they were still arrogant, though I don't think anyone here disagrees that the Romulans are arrogant).
Oh, I disagree that they are "arrogant" as a people (some certainly are), but then again, I'm aware of how overused, and misused, the term is in our contemporary society. Justified pride is not arrogance, and false modesty is only a virtue in certain Earth cultures (not every Earth culture).
I probably should expand on that some. I'll agree that it reflects on a culture, but political hostility does not translate to Xenophobia or a culture of hatred, and has causes other than culture (for instance, stances taken based on political policy). Many of the times hostility was shown was in times where it is justifiable, but that's subjective and so harder to place.
I'm not saying everyone in the empire is a xenophobe but you can't just dismiss their reclusive behavior as if they're going to welcome everyone with open arms. All that governmental propaganda without a doubt has an effect on the average persons psyche. Look how they treated the Remans and they were from the same solar system do you really think they would treat completely foreign aliens any better?
For instance, "The Neutral Zone", the Romulans initially thought the Federation had attacked their colonies. When you approach a ship from a force you suspect had just been attacking, you're not going to be nice to them, and you're going to take a posture of strength. It's also an understandable attitude to take when a treaty is violated (IE "Contagion" and "The Pegasus"). That said, they did create circumstances where they'd have an excuse to be hostile ("The Defector").
True but lets not forget when a species was seen as weak they conquered them as mentioned in balance of terror. I have no doubt had the federation seemed weak they would have invaded but since they had no idea of the Federations capabilities they sided on caution , biding their time.
in Nemesis and Star Trek 2009. In Nemesis we dont see much hostility from the Romulans, its the Remans who are hostile, and the Romulans act with honor, especially Dontara. In Star Trek 2009 we have Nero and his crew, who are Romulan everymen. They are not xenophobic or manipulative, they are hostile though (but given what they have gone through, it cannot be said that they are acting as normal for their culture).
I notice you've been missing some facts for your premise for instance the above quote.
You claim the Romulans weren't very hostile and acted honorably but lets not forget those very same Romulans conspired and assassinated their own government leaders because they wanted a war with the Federation.
Dontra even tried to seduce Sinzon but when she saw she couldn't get her way she had second thoughts about him sounds rather manipulative to me. Granted she probably didn't want to commit planetary genocide but that hardly makes her noble.
That's some hilariously biased interpretations right there. Just skipping to my favorite Romulan episode 'face of the enemy'-glossing over the fact that the reunificationist agent was involved in kidnapping, sabotage, murder, blackmail, and blowing up a civilian ship, and 'only hostility shown towards the Tal Shiar'-neglecting to mention Toreth (the most outspoken anti-Tal Shiar person on the ship) obvious relish at the thought of torture, her outrage when finding out about the dissenter's escape, her boasting at destroying an entire Klingon fleet, her questionably mock rage at the destruction of the civilian ship, or the fact that she was more than willing to blow up the enterprise with no provocation, or her general smug arrogance and hostility she emitted in general. Looks like a whole lot of leaving out of inconvenient details.
Cant recall if this has come up yet (after so many pages) but IF one of the Devs is even reading this thread, and IF they decide some things might actually be worth implementing, this came up in another thread, so I'll add it here ...
New Romulus needs a Reman BoFF contact/vendor
New Romulus needs a Reman DoFF contact/vendor/console
Romulan F(r)action needs a higher drop rate or higher chance on the Romulan/Reman Bridge Officer DoFF missions
Cant recall if this has come up yet (after so many pages) but IF one of the Devs is even reading this thread, and IF they decide some things might actually be worth implementing, this came up in another thread, so I'll add it here ...
New Romulus needs a Reman BoFF contact/vendor
New Romulus needs a Reman DoFF contact/vendor/console
Romulan F(r)action needs a higher drop rate or higher chance on the Romulan/Reman Bridge Officer DoFF missions
Yes, we definitely need a way to get specific species doffs, like kdf can with Gorn, Nausicaans, and Orions, and the federation can with Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites. It's a bit silly that it's easier to get a Tellarite crew than a Romulan one for the Romulan Republic. getting purple Romulans/Reman Doffs is a royal pain.
And finding a Romulan or Reman boff without having to shell out millions of EC is absurd right now, the doff missions are so rare that many people are in doubt that they actually exist.
I'm not saying everyone in the empire is a xenophobe but you can't just dismiss their reclusive behavior as if they're going to welcome everyone with open arms. All that governmental propaganda without a doubt has an effect on the average persons psyche. Look how they treated the Remans and they were from the same solar system do you really think they would treat completely foreign aliens any better?
I would grant isolationist, even to the extreme, but isolationism =/= xenophobia. I see their reclusive behavior towards the Federation as not wanting to stir **** where they didn't need to stir it, because based on the tidbits we do have, the Romulans certainly seemed busy in other areas while they were isolated from the Federation.
I have a lot of trouble with the Remans, I accept them as part of lore, but they felt very shoehorned in. By the time of Nemesis we'd had many, many years of Romulan stories and all sorts of opportunities to develop them... and they were never mentioned. Not arguing that they are should not be around and part of canon, but their creation created all sorts of continuity issues. Regardless, I can sorta see how they fit in, just find it... odd... they were never mentioned previously.
True but lets not forget when a species was seen as weak they conquered them as mentioned in balance of terror. I have no doubt had the federation seemed weak they would have invaded but since they had no idea of the Federations capabilities they sided on caution , biding their time.
Expansionist isn't the same as hostile or xenophobic. People don't call the Klingons hostile or xenophobic, but they're also an expansionist Empire. I've never denied the Romulans were an antagonistic race, but that hostility was based on political reasons and the politics of the situation have changed. The Romulans were not hostile through the bulk of the Dominion war when they were allied with the Federation and Romulans, they did not try to backstab or betray them (though, given what the Federation did not only to get them involved but keep them involved, if they ever found out, they would have every right TO be outraged).
I notice you've been missing some facts for your premise for instance the above quote.
You claim the Romulans weren't very hostile and acted honorably but lets not forget those very same Romulans conspired and assassinated their own government leaders because they wanted a war with the Federation.
Dontra even tried to seduce Sinzon but when she saw she couldn't get her way she had second thoughts about him sounds rather manipulative to me. Granted she probably didn't want to commit planetary genocide but that hardly makes her noble.
Fair point, it's been a while since I watched Nemesis because welll, let's be honest, who wants to watch Nemesis, and was going of partially remembered scenes and the overviews I could find on Wikipedia and Memory Alpha.
That's some hilariously biased interpretations right there. Just skipping to my favorite Romulan episode 'face of the enemy'-glossing over the fact that the reunificationist agent was involved in kidnapping, sabotage, murder, blackmail, and blowing up a civilian ship, and 'only hostility shown towards the Tal Shiar'-neglecting to mention Toreth (the most outspoken anti-Tal Shiar person on the ship) obvious relish at the thought of torture, her outrage when finding out about the dissenter's escape, her boasting at destroying an entire Klingon fleet, her questionably mock rage at the destruction of the civilian ship, or the fact that she was more than willing to blow up the enterprise with no provocation, or her general smug arrogance and hostility she emitted in general. Looks like a whole lot of leaving out of inconvenient details.
I did not gloss over, and in fact did count it towards my total of 11 episodes where the Romulans were shown as manipulative. But "Face of the Enemey" is more complex and not necessarily a good insight into Romulan culture writ large because it deals with an extreme situation. The episode is purposefully reminiscent of Underground Railroad and Holocaust escapee stories and the extremes people will take to get to a more free society when they are being persecuted, even the Romulans.
That's part of the problem with making determinations about the Romulans from the TV shows, they were almost always in extreme circumstances and dealing with their military and/or intelligence branches. These are not reflective of the culture writ large, but they do offer some insights. That said, to base our understanding of the Romulans on just the situations where they are acting in extremes is create a caricature of them, and would be like basing our understanding of the Federation, it morals, and culture off of just a handful of Episodes of Voyager.
I would grant isolationist, even to the extreme, but isolationism =/= xenophobia. I see their reclusive behavior towards the Federation as not wanting to stir **** where they didn't need to stir it, because based on the tidbits we do have, the Romulans certainly seemed busy in other areas while they were isolated from the Federation.
I have a lot of trouble with the Remans, I accept them as part of lore, but they felt very shoehorned in. By the time of Nemesis we'd had many, many years of Romulan stories and all sorts of opportunities to develop them... and they were never mentioned. Not arguing that they are should not be around and part of canon, but their creation created all sorts of continuity issues. Regardless, I can sorta see how they fit in, just find it... odd... they were never mentioned previously.
Well they felt like they were shoehorned in because well...they were. Though even so they're part of the lore now. I liked the fact that they added them into two episodes of Enterprise that was a nice touch. So then they weren't totally non existent in the series aside from the movie.
Expansionist isn't the same as hostile or xenophobic.
I can only assume your definition of hostile is completely different than mine because I consider the invasion and enslavement of other races very hostile.
People don't call the Klingons hostile or xenophobic, but they're also an expansionist Empire.
I don't know what you mean Klingons are hostile to the extreme. To quote Odo "Commander, there is no careful way to question a Klingon." Though I wouldn't say they're Xenophobic because they're always looking for new opponents to fight where as Romulans tend to look at threats as dangers to eliminate.
The Romulans were not hostile through the bulk of the Dominion war when they were allied with the Federation and Romulans, they did not try to backstab or betray them
Actually this is incorrect just off the top of my head I can think of two right away. In the Visionary episode the Romulans betray the Federation and destroyed DS9 and then there was the image in the sand episode. Where they started fortifying a Bajoran moon granted they had an excuse but it was heavily implied it wasn't defense but secretly a military build up for Romulan expansionism. "Romulans they're so predictably treacherous" Weyoun
I can only assume your definition of hostile is completely different than mine because I consider the invasion and enslavement of other races very hostile.
I'm drawing a distinction between personal hostility and political hostility. The Romulans are politically hostile, but I do not think political hostility portrayed as part of state policy (which was often the case) automatically means a social hostility. Many of the examples in Star Trek are of political hostility due to being an antagonistic power. To judge a people's culture by their political posturing isn't entirely accurate, it reveals important facets of how they think, but you cannot draw an accurate picture of the entire culture from that.
Actually this is incorrect just off the top of my head I can think of two right away. In the Visionary episode the Romulans betray the Federation and destroyed DS9 and then there was the image in the sand episode. Where they started fortifying a Bajoran moon granted they had an excuse but it was heavily implied it wasn't defense but secretly a military build up for Romulan expansionism. "Romulans they're so predictably treacherous" Weyoun
The events of Visionary predate the beginning of the Dominion War, at least, as I understood the timeline. Yes they plotted to destroy DS9 and collapse the wormhole, but that was not out of a desire to betray their agreements, but to prevent the Dominion War they were convinced was coming. I've always thought it rather fascinating that the Romulans became obsessed with stopping the Dominion War before it began, when, per every star chart I've seen, Bajor, the Wormhole, and Cardassian space are clear on the opposite side of the Federation from the Star Empire. If the Romulans left well enough alone, it would have been the Federation, Cardassians and Klingons who took the bulk of the fighting and dying. The thought of teaming up with the Dominion against their old enemies didn't seem to cross their minds, instead they kept trying to prevent a war that would have bled them, destroyed them and maybe given the Romulans a chance to make great gains? Yes, they tried to do it their own way, and were willing to sacrifice others lives to do it, but that is because they are pragmatic players of realpolitick, not idealists.
As to the second event that did happen in the Dominion War (and I'm drawing a blank on the episode title). I do grant there was more going on there, but as I recall the episode (it's been a while since I've watched it) we never got anything but snippets of the Romulan's side of the story while we were heavily focused on the Kira's side, and Kira is not exact an unbiased source on things. That said, there is no indication that this was a betrayal of anything, merely going beyond what the Bajorans were willing to allow and the Romulans testing the limits of what they were allowed to get away with in buildup. I did not see this episode on the list on Wikipedia I used for my episode guide (a fact which surprised me, to be honest as I clearly remember it, maybe be cause it was a secondary plot in that episode or something... I don't know. Suffice to say, me leaving that off my list was not purposeful, but I couldn't find the name of the episode and had already taken hours writing that post...).
I'm drawing a distinction between personal hostility and political hostility. The Romulans are politically hostile, but I do not think political hostility portrayed as part of state policy (which was often the case) automatically means a social hostility. Many of the examples in Star Trek are of political hostility due to being an antagonistic power. To judge a people's culture by their political posturing isn't entirely accurate, it reveals important facets of how they think, but you cannot draw an accurate picture of the entire culture from that.
Nor can you draw an entirely accurate picture from an individual's personal stance because they're just that individuals. When we look back at historical cultures it's generally the political stances of the government and how it's structured that concern us such as monarchies , fascists , communists , ect. No ones concerned about what an English blacksmith in the hundred year war though about the French. What most people care about is what the people in power making the decisions that molded the culture were thinking.
The events of Visionary predate the beginning of the Dominion War, at least, as I understood the timeline. Yes they plotted to destroy DS9 and collapse the wormhole, but that was not out of a desire to betray their agreements, but to prevent the Dominion War they were convinced was coming. I've always thought it rather fascinating that the Romulans became obsessed with stopping the Dominion War before it began, when, per every star chart I've seen, Bajor, the Wormhole, and Cardassian space are clear on the opposite side of the Federation from the Star Empire. If the Romulans left well enough alone, it would have been the Federation, Cardassians and Klingons who took the bulk of the fighting and dying. The thought of teaming up with the Dominion against their old enemies didn't seem to cross their minds, instead they kept trying to prevent a war that would have bled them, destroyed them and maybe given the Romulans a chance to make great gains? Yes, they tried to do it their own way, and were willing to sacrifice others lives to do it, but that is because they are pragmatic players of realpolitick, not idealists.
Yes Visionary does predate the Dominion war but I thought it was relevant given they were working jointly under treaties and they turned on them without warning when they thought it was in their best interests. Also the only reason the Romulans were concerned with stopping the war before it began was because they knew the Dominion would eventually be gunning for them and that was a war they couldn't win. What good are gains if someone is going to take everything you got a moment later.
As to the second event that did happen in the Dominion War (and I'm drawing a blank on the episode title). I do grant there was more going on there, but as I recall the episode (it's been a while since I've watched it) we never got anything but snippets of the Romulan's side of the story while we were heavily focused on the Kira's side, and Kira is not exact an unbiased source on things. That said, there is no indication that this was a betrayal of anything, merely going beyond what the Bajorans were willing to allow and the Romulans testing the limits of what they were allowed to get away with in buildup. I did not see this episode on the list on Wikipedia I used for my episode guide (a fact which surprised me, to be honest as I clearly remember it, maybe be cause it was a secondary plot in that episode or something... I don't know. Suffice to say, me leaving that off my list was not purposeful, but I couldn't find the name of the episode and had already taken hours writing that post...).
The Romulans intentionally armed a Bajorian moon under the pretext of it being a hospital and when asked to remove it they originally refused. We know they were trying to hide it because they turned away a federation ship seeking medical attention for it's crews.
That sounds like a betrayal to me and takes a lot of gall to seize control of your allies territory while fighting side by side with them. In fact the Romulans manipulated the situation superbly so it looked like it was just a misunderstanding.
I'd like clearer rank options on Republic uniforms. I thought the shoulder pads and capes were from the Tal Shiar uniform, but then you see some Republic NPCs wearing them and some not wearing them. What gives? How about a little consistency? Ooooooo.. I might blog about that.
Seconded. Currently the only two options to show either rank or the Republic insignia on the Romulan uniform are the shoulder pads (ostentatious and gaudy, IMO), or the scarf with pin, which hardly goes with a military-style uniform.
Please include a more subtle, but still visible way of displaying rank and affiliation on our uniforms.
Vice Admiral Tevek Arem
C.O. - R.R.W. Aurega, Romulan Republican Flotilla
Liaison assigned to Federation Starfleet with full rank equivalency
"By the the memory of Romulus I promise to serve the Republic and my people."
And if it's not already been mentioned about a better way to get Romulan Faction BOFFs that are better than common qualify without having to spend millions of EC on the Exchange.
That said, they are constantly portrayed as a proud to the point of arrogant people, which STO does show somewhat, but it could use a touch more of, but it is always the higher ranked Romulans who showed the worst of that attitude, more rank and file were only jingoistic perhaps, proud of who they were, but not arrogant.
I dunno about that... pretty much every romulan shown, has been pretty arrogant and cocksure. Even being the only romulan on a federation ship, manning the cloaking device, that officer was an arrogant b**** :P
It should also be noted, that if we did a similar list for the Cardassians, we would come up with similar numbers, but nobody complains that in STO the Cardassians are shown as peaceful republicans who are no longer hostile and manipulating. Why?
I can only assume your definition of hostile is completely different than mine because I consider the invasion and enslavement of other races very hostile.
I'm drawing a distinction between personal hostility and political hostility. The Romulans are politically hostile, but I do not think political hostility portrayed as part of state policy (which was often the case) automatically means a social hostility. Many of the examples in Star Trek are of political hostility due to being an antagonistic power. To judge a people's culture by their political posturing isn't entirely accurate, it reveals important facets of how they think, but you cannot draw an accurate picture of the entire culture from that.
I think the best example of this is the American government's need to shove their phallus up every country's posterior and tell them how to think while we "police" them and ensure their "freedom". When most actual American people couldn't care less what goes on outside their home much less a different country.
Comments
I don't see how that's a misrepresentation, when you say things like:
"Romulans are destined to rule the stars. You Federation types will also fall beneath the raptor's wings, after the Klingons petition for membership in the New Romulan Republic, at the behest of the Orions. Then there will be only one faction: Romulan. A glorious day that shall be!"[/QUOTE]
Pretty much anytime you mention Orions and Romulans within the same post. Now there isn't much basis for a Orion-Republic alliance, but that hasn't stopped you from envisioning it-good for you RP and all that can be fun. But I think there's no small amount of hypocrisy involved when you also tell RSE supporters that their desire to play as the Star Empire is and never was feasible or appropriate.
And wanting the cartoon bird available for the underside of all Romulan vessels *is* a rather niche request, and while options are nice and all that, I think there's a bigger cry for Romulans who act more like the Romulans from the shows.
If you think 'bad guy' factions are not feasible for STO, then I suggest you take a look at the KDF content you so clearly play (running a KDF fleet and being so fond of Orions) Slavery, murder, assassination, death camps, extortion, summary executions, bribery, biological weapons, torture and general oppression of both their own people, war captives, and civilians. Pretty much the full range of things I imagine the RSE would be capable of.
There were examples of non-stupid-evil Tal Shiar in the series. There was Koval and the Tal Shiar In the dominion prison camp. If you want to talk about 'bad' Romulans, there are many, many examples of 'evil' Romulans who were not Tal SHiar, probably more than there are of evil Tal Shiar. Sela, Tomalak, etc are the most obvious examples, with many individuals in the military, government, and even your Romulan Intelligence which did very, very bad things. I freely admit that not all Romulans were entirely evil, but this is a two way street here, and fact of the matter is most Romulans were pretty bad in one way or another, as much as some might pretend that it wasn't the case.
This was Hyperbole and you should know this. It doesn't discredit their complaints in any way. And Cryptic themselves has gone on record saying their sources of inspiration, so I'd recommend going back and reading/listening to the old interviews.
Yeah, that was me mocking the creator of the thread. You've heard of satire, have you not? The suggestion that the KDF and NRR should be replaced with something else is satire-worthy.
I don't think I've mentioned Orions and Romulans much simultaneously, except when I'm referring to a rather obvious reality of the NRR alliance with the "Klingon Empire" as being actually with the Orion Syndicate. This may not be entirely comfortable for you (for whatever reason), but there's more than implication that this is the case.
Like it or not, that bird is the thing most of us old enough to remember the Romulans before the revisionism of TNG recall as a Romulan logo. And your constant refusal to admit that the Romulans of TOS were not like the Romulans you so idolize is a huge part of the tension. I admit it. The Romulans of TOS were not like the predominant representation of Romulans in TNG and all later series. To me, that says something happened in between TOS and TNG. Non-canon it may be, but the explanation that the Tal'Shiar was formed after TOS during the Praetorship of Narviat is the most sensible explanation.
I run a Romulan fleet. It is allied with the Orion Syndicate (or, since you have already previously demonstrated that you are in denial of the rather obvious reality of the situation, the Klingon Empire). I was presented with a false dilemma by the game, in which I had to choose an alliance, with either the UFP or the Orion Syndicate. The Romulans have been allied with the Klingon Empire at least once in the past (more likely, at least twice). When meeting with the UFP's delegates, we learn rather quickly that Admiral T'Nae is an arrogant racist and that Jiro Sugihara is everything that you and your fellow imperialists are constantly trying to paint D'Tan as being. The Klingons are initially not very trusting or friendly, but that changes with Temer's self-sacrifice, and they offer alliance. Then and only then does the UFP delegation fall over themselves to offer alliance, terrified that the KDF will gain an advantage if they do not. The Klingons and the Orions have their faults (including their imperialism), but they're also fairly honest about them (and explicit about being an empire), while the UFP tries to cover up its own war crimes and pretend to be something other than an empire (when that is obviously not the case).
I worked at a correctional facility. Every inmate (with very rare exceptions) claimed to be innocent of whatever had landed them there, and were on their best behavior in my presence. In the case of Internment Camp 371, the Jem'Hadar kept their weapons set to maximum and would use them on the inmates for any infraction. You wouldn't seriously expect the Tal'Shiar there to show their true colors, would you? Sela was arguably a former operative of the Tal'Shiar. The Path to 2409 describes her thus (under the year 2384):
"Sela, a human-Romulan hybrid with extensive experience in the military and intelligence fields, has been a part of several major Romulan operations, including a failed attempt to invade Vulcan and coordinating support for the House of Duras attempt to take over the Klingon High Council in 2367."
If she had been a Military Intelligence operative, I would expect that to have been stated. But no, "military and intelligence." What is the Romulan Intelligence agency in and before 2384? Ah, yes: the Tal'Shiar. Tomalak was not atypical of military hawks from other species. "My" Romulan Intelligence? You mean the Tal'Diann, the Romulan Military Internal Affairs and Military Intelligence agency, an organization never once mentioned in canon? Ahh, yes, you must again mean the Tal'Shiar, which is hardly "my" Romulan Intelligence.
I am quite certain that I have stated repeatedly that the predominant depiction of Romulans in TNG and the later series were rather unsavory characters, but exceptions to that portrayal also exist in those same series. The predominant depiction was of Tal'Shiar and military personnel. To extrapolate from their behavior to a claim that "most Romulans" were like that is again a classic example of Non Sequitur, specifically the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization. And again, the majority of Romulans depicted in TOS were quite the opposite, but that's not convenient for your stereotypical view of "most Romulans."
Oh, I'm well aware that it was hyperbole. Such exaggerations are common in propaganda efforts. Another technique used in concert with hyperbole is repetition over and over again in an effort to drown out any rational objections and present the false impression that there is no other view worthy of consideration -- oh, yes, and the mockery of those making rational objections.
Now what are those complaints again? Something about how the New Romulan Republic is not acting like Romulans from the shows? Keras and Di'on Charvon. Keras' friend and comrade "the Centurion." Honor, no xenophobia, no arrogance, giving quarter to captured foes, yeah, that's how Romulans behaved in THE show before the Tal'Shiar spread its culture of terror and intimidation throughout the Star Empire, and how "most Romulans" still felt (albeit clandestinely) even after the Tal'Shiar had made themselves feared.
Also because I hate to digress so I'll say this expanding on the thread: I would not mind a bowl cut with a ponytail. Also a sword with a Romulan theme would be nice.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=16025011#post16025011
This thread is a testiment to the hollowness of such an empty solution.
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Cryptic seemed to pick the odd balls out of the group and decided they were the norm for Romulans. Sure cultures can change but I believe most people want STO to be representative of the shows we watched. Imagine if odd balls like Alexander were considered the norm for Klingons...the Klingon Empire would fall in a week.:P
And to add to my wish list...Maybe we could get some Reman weapons and the Viceroy's overcoat. Also the Reman character models need touching up so they look more like the Reman in the movie and less like...Ferengi
Its proto dude... if it isn't her version then its wrong and she will type up war & peace sized rants on why. Trying to debate/debunk or even just wake her up to reality is, very sadly, just feeding the troll.
I watched TOS long before the whippersnappers made TNG and turned the Romulans into something they never were before. I want STO to be representative of TOS.
I want a T5 Romulan D7, and ... wait for it ... a T5 Connie. That would be representative of the shows I watched, but apparently, "most people" are dead set against a T5 Connie, even if CBS were not.
I'm the troll? Look, he quoted something I said in another thread, and then claimed he wasn't misrepresenting what I said there in his earlier post, using the quote as supposed evidence. And yet, that quote was me mocking someone for suggesting something as ridiculous as getting rid of the Klingon and Romulan factions -- and I think that the satirical nature of the post was apparent to most people who read it.
My replies to each point are only "long" because of the inclusion of what I'm replying to; take out the quoted bits, and my replies are generally no longer than what I'm replying to, but again, the fact that I take the time to refute every point is seized upon as another target for another ad Hominem attack, because you cannot "debunk" what I have said. I use logical argumentation and evidence. You guys just bark and rage because I have shown, and continue to show, that you're a minority, and that Cryptic's storyline for the Romulans is entirely consistent with canon.
Sometimes I think I have given you guys too much credit.
Lets look at that claim, shall we? For the record, Im going to treat hostility as personal hostility, not political hostility, as personal hostility shows more about the culture than their political stance, and its the culture that is constantly at debate here.
Wikpedia has a list of Romulan Stories, well go through them chronologically. I am also only touching on episodes where the Romulans appeared as themselves, rather than as ideas or hallucinations (as those are not reflective of the Romulans as a people, but rather what outsiders think OF them), and going by series.
Balance of Terror Introductory Romulan episode. They are introduced as a reclusive power that earth once fought a war against a hundred years prior. They are shown as political hostile, but not personally hostile in this episode. There is no manipulation portrayed here at all, unless you count tactical move and counter moves between Kirk and the Romulan Commander.
The Enterprise Incident No manipulation by the Romulans, they were in fact the ones being manipulated. No hostility in the least, and in fact they are downright hospitable and open despite having their space invaded.
The Neutral Zone No manipulation, both sides encountered each other, got the information they wanted and withdrew, some personal hostility I will grant, definitely a change in tone from TOS, but more a general arrogance than directed against others personally.
Contagion No manipulation, some hostility, though the Yamato and Enterprise did violate the Neutral Zone, which given the history weve seen on screen, the Romulans have every right to be hostile about Federation ships coming into the Zone.
The Enemy No manipulation, hostility based on damning circumstances for the Enterprise, that is resolved when the truth is revealed. Further willing cooperation between a Romulan and Federation to survive. There is also some personal hostility in the episode between the Romulan and Worf, but it cuts both ways, reflecting on both Worf and the Romulan in question.
The Defector This is where the manipulative political side of the Romulans first appears concerning Admiral Jaroks test of loyalty. Interestingly, Jarok does not consider himself irregular for the Romulans, nor do the other Romulans seem surprised he failed his test. The Romulans are again hostile in an antagonist role, but again, due to a Federation violation of the Neutral Zone. That said, they did set it up to happen, so here is where we begin to see the shift.
Tin Man No manipulation, antagonistic relationship competing over a potential resource (the titular Tin Man in a system claimed by the Romulans but outside their actual sphere of control. Limited communications happen with the Romulans in this episode, but their hostility is mostly directed at the Tin Man for destroying one of their own, and incidentally at the Enterprise for trying to stop them.
Datas Day Manipulation in the Cloak and Dagger spy sense based on an operation to recover a deep cover agent. Hostility when the Enterprise violates the Neutral Zone in an attempt to stop their retrieval operation. All political and not very personal in flavor.
The Minds Eye Definitely manipulation, plotting and scheming and the introduction of Sela. Generally a well-received episode, and likely one of the ones people strongly associate with how Romulans operate.
Redemption Some manipulation, though the Federation is arguably also doing the same thing (backing their favored side in the Klingon Empire). They are more of a bit player here though, simply supporting the Duras family than being the primary actors.
Unification This one is the first glance we get of non-military/intelligence Romulans, and they are a clearly repressed, but not really hostile folk. There is definitely manipulation, but the majority of the hostility comes not from the Romulans, but from Sela.
The Next Phase No real manipulation, but some plotting against the Enterprise to try and preserve state secrets. Some hostility based on those same issues, but not personal.
Face of the Enemy Im not sure to call this manipulation or not. Definitely subterfuge on the part of Reunificationists, but I have trouble holding this one on the Romulans as cultural manipulation seeing as how this was dissenters escaping a tyrannical government story, and this kind of story is rife throughout history without having cultures that are inherently manipulative. There was no xenophobic hostility, the only hostility shown was towards the Tal Shiar.
Birthright No manipulation, no hostility, and a stark lack of xenophobia of any kind. Also Romulans showing mercy and honor.
The Chase No manipulation, some hostility in the political, but not personal, sense. In fact, out of all the parties there it is only the Federation and the Romulans who are receptive to the idea of peace, with the Romulans echoing their original idea of not so different.
Timescape No manipulation, no hostility. Shows the Romulans to be rational actors.
The Pegasus No manipulation, political hostility and rage at the Federation for breaking a major treaty with the development of a Phase Cloaking Device.
The Search The first DS9 episode on the list and involves the introduction of the Defiant. No Romulan manipulation, no hostility. The Romulans are ALSO sharing their most VALUABLE military secret here, not the act of xenophobes or paranoid irrational actors.
Visionary No manipulation, though there is plotting. Arrogance, but no real hostility. It should also be noted that out of all the players in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, it is the Romulans who first identified the Dominion as a real threat and were trying to act to stave off the war before it began. They did take underhanded means to do it, but, as the Vulcans say: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Improbable Cause No manipulation by the Romulans (a massive amount by the Cardassians and Dominion though). No hostility. Again, the Romulans seem prescient in their efforts to undercut the Dominion. It should be further noted that the Romulans of this episode were the Tal Shiar, acting without authorization of the Empire. It should also be noted that the actions of the Tal Shiar were not guided by a Romulan, but by a Founder
The Die Is Cast See above, as its direct continues the story in Improbably Cause.
By Infernos Light No manipulation, no hostility to anyone other than the Dominion. The Romulans also continue to act against the Dominion committing significant forces to aid in the defense of DS9.
In a Pale Moonlight No manipulation by the Romulans (meanwhile the Federation conspires, and succeeds in, assassinating a Romulan representative), hostility from the Romulans only once they discover they are being manipulated with false information.
Image in the Sand Listed on Wikipedia, but not really involving the Romulans outside of the ongoing Dominion War arc and them establishing an outpost on DS9. Not going to count this one either way.
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges Manipulation by pretty much everyone, but the primary actors here are Federation, not Romulan. No hostility.
Eye of the Needle Voyager episode. No hostility, no manipulation. The Romulans involved, in fact, are downright hospitable and friendly compared to other appearances, and this is one of the few times we have a Romulan whos not a member of the military or government in a role of importance. As such, hes an excellent insight into the Romulans as a people when theyre not having to act as the face of the Empire and he is well, merciful, honorable, friendly and altruistic. Furthermore, he believes that the Senate will be as well given Voyagers circumstances. Given, he may have been an idealist in that, but hes the closest we ever get to a Romulan everyman, and hes a downright decent fellow.
Message in a Bottle A spy thriller esq episode reminiscent of their actions in Datas Day. I am hesitant to call spy operations indicative of the culture writ large, as they ALWAYS involve manipulation. No hostility in a personal sense, just as an antagonistic power to the Federation.
Minefield First Enterprise episode, no manipulation, hostility to unknown species in their territory. I personally hate this episode as it shows Romulans with cloaking before Romulans had cloaking.
KirShara Manipulation of the Vulcans (does that count?), no hostility.
Babel One Manipulation to attempt to prevent the establishment of a strong alliance structure. No hostility outside of a political sense.
United Manipulation to attempt to prevent the establishment of a strong alliance structure. Hostility due to that.
Aenar Same as their previous appearances on Enterprise.
With that were done the series. To touch on the Romulans in the movies, they have a small role in Star Trek VI as part of the anti-Khitomer conspiracy (though the extent and what role the Romulan Ambassador played is unknown, so we cant label them as manipulating here or hostile), and featured heavily in Nemesis and Star Trek 2009. In Nemesis we dont see much hostility from the Romulans, its the Remans who are hostile, and the Romulans act with honor, especially Dontara. In Star Trek 2009 we have Nero and his crew, who are Romulan everymen. They are not xenophobic or manipulative, they are hostile though (but given what they have gone through, it cannot be said that they are acting as normal for their culture).
So 34 Major Romulan stories seen. Of those 11 involve clear Romulan manipulations, which is one third of their appearances (not a majority). As to hostility they are constantly shown as hostile to the Federation when the Federation is the biggest player around, which makes sense given their role as an antagonist in the setting and as a rival great power, but it is nearly always political hostility, not personal, and not xenophobic. They also definitely prefer the devil they know (the Federation) to the devil they dont (the Dominion), and they were consistently shown to be willing to throw down in defense of their neighbors, even when their neighbors didnt want their help.
That said, they are constantly portrayed as a proud to the point of arrogant people, which STO does show somewhat, but it could use a touch more of, but it is always the higher ranked Romulans who showed the worst of that attitude, more rank and file were only jingoistic perhaps, proud of who they were, but not arrogant.
It should also be noted, that if we did a similar list for the Cardassians, we would come up with similar numbers, but nobody complains that in STO the Cardassians are shown as peaceful republicans who are no longer hostile and manipulating. Why? Because it makes sense given what happened onscreen. The STO portrayal of Romulans also fits what happened on screen to their people, and STO moves their story forward, not perfectly, but it does. You may not like the direction they took, but there are seeds of it throughout Star Trek and even more so in secondary sources which Cryptic clearly drew on.
The Romulans have not been portrayed by the "vast majority" of episodes as " hostile and manipulative". Portrayals Romulans as manipulative made up 1/3rd of their total appearances in ALL OF STAR TREK. They were consistently an antagonist in a dramatic sense, but personal hostility towards outside races and xenophobia were nearly nil. In fact, the only time they were portrayed as xenophobic would be their four appearances in Enterprise.
If you want a debunk here it is: According to the Appendices on the Romulan page of Memory Alpha the Romulans appeared 59 times in Star Trek, even if you are generous and include TAS as 'your' classic Romulans then only 6 of those appearances include them. They are not in any movie or in any episode after that and no societal revolution is mentioned ANYWHERE to change the Romulans. On the contrary if you just go by what see on screen then the OG Romulans are still cold sly operators such as in "The Survivor" when send a spy to force the Enterprise into Romulan space so they can steal it, and in "The Practical Joker when they speak attack the Enterprise in neutral territory. Even when you include your precious Diane Duane novels it is shown that most of the Empire is more interested in spying espionage and sneak attacks then fair fights and honor (even Tafv the main Romulan's son)
Also you tend toward ad Hominem a lot more than you opponents do while using the same argument over and over.
Once again since I am on this thread which isn't here for me and Proto to fight I'll add some more wishes: a ground trait called "Reman Commando which increases speed for Remans with it. Also shoulderpads that look more like bird heads and checker pattern capes.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16038811&postcount=130
Oh boy.....nope, I'm not even gonna' ask. *shakes head*
Exactly, YOU want these things. A T5 Connie would be a bad idea because they're outdated by almost 150 years.
We saw a whopping total of 2 Romulan captains in TOS, whereas we saw much more in TNG, and therefore they are more representative to their
species. If you want "honourable species" play the KDF, with Klingons. If STO where representative of TOS, then there'd be connies, D7s and T'Liss'
flying everywhere. D7s are shown in TNG and DS9, whereas Constitution and T'Liss' are outdated. It'd be like everybody driving around in Ford Thunderbirds, despite them being from around the 1960s. Barely anyone does. Constitutions are outdated in tech, and they'd be smashed to pieces in a war.
Just accept that TNG Romulans are cooler, 'cause they are.
TOS only had three episodes with Romulans in it you can't define a species based on a handful of episodes just because they came first. If we did that STO would have TOS Klingons with no head ridges and goatees.:P It's the series afterwards that put Romulans on the map with continuous episodes that far exceed the TOS episodes in numbers.
I've read over your list through and it's good but I question your conclusions. I've noticed you missed several important details which would counter dict your statements.
I'll try and write a response to each episode later can't do it off the top of my head.;) Watching every single Romulan episode will take some time.
Also I will not discriminate political hostility from personal hostility as I feel this is an error in judgement. Political environments are still part of a culture and should not be swept aside to do so would ignore the political structure of a culture and it's behavior.
I probably should expand on that some. I'll agree that it reflects on a culture, but political hostility does not translate to Xenophobia or a culture of hatred, and has causes other than culture (for instance, stances taken based on political policy). Many of the times hostility was shown was in times where it is justifiable, but that's subjective and so harder to place.
For instance, "The Neutral Zone", the Romulans initially thought the Federation had attacked their colonies. When you approach a ship from a force you suspect had just been attacking, you're not going to be nice to them, and you're going to take a posture of strength. It's also an understandable attitude to take when a treaty is violated (IE "Contagion" and "The Pegasus"). That said, they did create circumstances where they'd have an excuse to be hostile ("The Defector").
Bearing in my the circumstances presented in the show, the Romulans were an equal of the Federation, or they wanted to be considered as one. Therefor they needed to act from a position of strength and save face. As they were a competitor for space and resources, of course they were hostile as a political position... not to step on any forum rules... but look at how China and Russia act. Their culture and people are quite friendly and hospitable, but on the world stage they can act with considerable hostility and aggression.
This is one of the reasons I put more weight on the the DS9 and Voyager portrayals of Romulans than TNG, as those showed the Romulans not when they are acting hostile as part of international policy, but when they don't need to showing strength and keep what they consider potentially hostile neighbors at bay. In those circumstances, they didn't show any of the outright hostility they showed in TNG (though they were still arrogant, though I don't think anyone here disagrees that the Romulans are arrogant).
Oh, I disagree that they are "arrogant" as a people (some certainly are), but then again, I'm aware of how overused, and misused, the term is in our contemporary society. Justified pride is not arrogance, and false modesty is only a virtue in certain Earth cultures (not every Earth culture).
I'm not saying everyone in the empire is a xenophobe but you can't just dismiss their reclusive behavior as if they're going to welcome everyone with open arms. All that governmental propaganda without a doubt has an effect on the average persons psyche. Look how they treated the Remans and they were from the same solar system do you really think they would treat completely foreign aliens any better?
True but lets not forget when a species was seen as weak they conquered them as mentioned in balance of terror. I have no doubt had the federation seemed weak they would have invaded but since they had no idea of the Federations capabilities they sided on caution , biding their time.
I notice you've been missing some facts for your premise for instance the above quote.
You claim the Romulans weren't very hostile and acted honorably but lets not forget those very same Romulans conspired and assassinated their own government leaders because they wanted a war with the Federation.
Dontra even tried to seduce Sinzon but when she saw she couldn't get her way she had second thoughts about him sounds rather manipulative to me. Granted she probably didn't want to commit planetary genocide but that hardly makes her noble.
I see I'm not the only one that noticed the selective things peregry decided to use as examples.
That's some hilariously biased interpretations right there. Just skipping to my favorite Romulan episode 'face of the enemy'-glossing over the fact that the reunificationist agent was involved in kidnapping, sabotage, murder, blackmail, and blowing up a civilian ship, and 'only hostility shown towards the Tal Shiar'-neglecting to mention Toreth (the most outspoken anti-Tal Shiar person on the ship) obvious relish at the thought of torture, her outrage when finding out about the dissenter's escape, her boasting at destroying an entire Klingon fleet, her questionably mock rage at the destruction of the civilian ship, or the fact that she was more than willing to blow up the enterprise with no provocation, or her general smug arrogance and hostility she emitted in general. Looks like a whole lot of leaving out of inconvenient details.
New Romulus needs a Reman BoFF contact/vendor
New Romulus needs a Reman DoFF contact/vendor/console
Romulan F(r)action needs a higher drop rate or higher chance on the Romulan/Reman Bridge Officer DoFF missions
And finding a Romulan or Reman boff without having to shell out millions of EC is absurd right now, the doff missions are so rare that many people are in doubt that they actually exist.
I would grant isolationist, even to the extreme, but isolationism =/= xenophobia. I see their reclusive behavior towards the Federation as not wanting to stir **** where they didn't need to stir it, because based on the tidbits we do have, the Romulans certainly seemed busy in other areas while they were isolated from the Federation.
I have a lot of trouble with the Remans, I accept them as part of lore, but they felt very shoehorned in. By the time of Nemesis we'd had many, many years of Romulan stories and all sorts of opportunities to develop them... and they were never mentioned. Not arguing that they are should not be around and part of canon, but their creation created all sorts of continuity issues. Regardless, I can sorta see how they fit in, just find it... odd... they were never mentioned previously.
Expansionist isn't the same as hostile or xenophobic. People don't call the Klingons hostile or xenophobic, but they're also an expansionist Empire. I've never denied the Romulans were an antagonistic race, but that hostility was based on political reasons and the politics of the situation have changed. The Romulans were not hostile through the bulk of the Dominion war when they were allied with the Federation and Romulans, they did not try to backstab or betray them (though, given what the Federation did not only to get them involved but keep them involved, if they ever found out, they would have every right TO be outraged).
Fair point, it's been a while since I watched Nemesis because welll, let's be honest, who wants to watch Nemesis, and was going of partially remembered scenes and the overviews I could find on Wikipedia and Memory Alpha.
I did not gloss over, and in fact did count it towards my total of 11 episodes where the Romulans were shown as manipulative. But "Face of the Enemey" is more complex and not necessarily a good insight into Romulan culture writ large because it deals with an extreme situation. The episode is purposefully reminiscent of Underground Railroad and Holocaust escapee stories and the extremes people will take to get to a more free society when they are being persecuted, even the Romulans.
That's part of the problem with making determinations about the Romulans from the TV shows, they were almost always in extreme circumstances and dealing with their military and/or intelligence branches. These are not reflective of the culture writ large, but they do offer some insights. That said, to base our understanding of the Romulans on just the situations where they are acting in extremes is create a caricature of them, and would be like basing our understanding of the Federation, it morals, and culture off of just a handful of Episodes of Voyager.
Well they felt like they were shoehorned in because well...they were. Though even so they're part of the lore now. I liked the fact that they added them into two episodes of Enterprise that was a nice touch. So then they weren't totally non existent in the series aside from the movie.
I can only assume your definition of hostile is completely different than mine because I consider the invasion and enslavement of other races very hostile.
I don't know what you mean Klingons are hostile to the extreme. To quote Odo "Commander, there is no careful way to question a Klingon." Though I wouldn't say they're Xenophobic because they're always looking for new opponents to fight where as Romulans tend to look at threats as dangers to eliminate.
Actually this is incorrect just off the top of my head I can think of two right away. In the Visionary episode the Romulans betray the Federation and destroyed DS9 and then there was the image in the sand episode. Where they started fortifying a Bajoran moon granted they had an excuse but it was heavily implied it wasn't defense but secretly a military build up for Romulan expansionism. "Romulans they're so predictably treacherous" Weyoun
I'm drawing a distinction between personal hostility and political hostility. The Romulans are politically hostile, but I do not think political hostility portrayed as part of state policy (which was often the case) automatically means a social hostility. Many of the examples in Star Trek are of political hostility due to being an antagonistic power. To judge a people's culture by their political posturing isn't entirely accurate, it reveals important facets of how they think, but you cannot draw an accurate picture of the entire culture from that.
The events of Visionary predate the beginning of the Dominion War, at least, as I understood the timeline. Yes they plotted to destroy DS9 and collapse the wormhole, but that was not out of a desire to betray their agreements, but to prevent the Dominion War they were convinced was coming. I've always thought it rather fascinating that the Romulans became obsessed with stopping the Dominion War before it began, when, per every star chart I've seen, Bajor, the Wormhole, and Cardassian space are clear on the opposite side of the Federation from the Star Empire. If the Romulans left well enough alone, it would have been the Federation, Cardassians and Klingons who took the bulk of the fighting and dying. The thought of teaming up with the Dominion against their old enemies didn't seem to cross their minds, instead they kept trying to prevent a war that would have bled them, destroyed them and maybe given the Romulans a chance to make great gains? Yes, they tried to do it their own way, and were willing to sacrifice others lives to do it, but that is because they are pragmatic players of realpolitick, not idealists.
As to the second event that did happen in the Dominion War (and I'm drawing a blank on the episode title). I do grant there was more going on there, but as I recall the episode (it's been a while since I've watched it) we never got anything but snippets of the Romulan's side of the story while we were heavily focused on the Kira's side, and Kira is not exact an unbiased source on things.
Nor can you draw an entirely accurate picture from an individual's personal stance because they're just that individuals. When we look back at historical cultures it's generally the political stances of the government and how it's structured that concern us such as monarchies , fascists , communists , ect. No ones concerned about what an English blacksmith in the hundred year war though about the French. What most people care about is what the people in power making the decisions that molded the culture were thinking.
Yes Visionary does predate the Dominion war but I thought it was relevant given they were working jointly under treaties and they turned on them without warning when they thought it was in their best interests. Also the only reason the Romulans were concerned with stopping the war before it began was because they knew the Dominion would eventually be gunning for them and that was a war they couldn't win. What good are gains if someone is going to take everything you got a moment later.
The Romulans intentionally armed a Bajorian moon under the pretext of it being a hospital and when asked to remove it they originally refused. We know they were trying to hide it because they turned away a federation ship seeking medical attention for it's crews.
That sounds like a betrayal to me and takes a lot of gall to seize control of your allies territory while fighting side by side with them. In fact the Romulans manipulated the situation superbly so it looked like it was just a misunderstanding.
Seconded. Currently the only two options to show either rank or the Republic insignia on the Romulan uniform are the shoulder pads (ostentatious and gaudy, IMO), or the scarf with pin, which hardly goes with a military-style uniform.
Please include a more subtle, but still visible way of displaying rank and affiliation on our uniforms.
C.O. - R.R.W. Aurega, Romulan Republican Flotilla
Liaison assigned to Federation Starfleet with full rank equivalency
"By the the memory of Romulus I promise to serve the Republic and my people."
Because no one like spoon heads :P
I think the best example of this is the American government's need to shove their phallus up every country's posterior and tell them how to think while we "police" them and ensure their "freedom". When most actual American people couldn't care less what goes on outside their home much less a different country.