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The First ESD

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  • adverberoadverbero Member Posts: 2,045 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    vaithh wrote: »
    More wasted space?

    Yes please!

    The Current ESD feels tiny inside. I am fine with keeping the current main level as it is, however I wish there was more depth to the overall station like we have at the fleet starbases, or even our ships!

    Would be awesome if there was a level full of meeting rooms, holodecks, cargo bays, living space, an engineering deck, etc.

    Currently ESD interior feels small as compared to the hundreds (?) of levels it appears to have when warping into the station.

    Yeah i would love for some expanded space
    I get that for ease of use in a game all the services are on one map, But in terms of realism its kinda odd to have all those different services on one floor, relatively small compared to the main part of the station

    I think the Fleet Starbase got it much better, where you travel to different Decks for the major service hubs, and being able to move between the decks in that fashion creates a sense of size , at least in my opinion

    Also , If there is a potential revamp of the Map coming up, Could this also be used as an oppertunity to add some new features to the Map? Maybe some mini daily missions or something, just to give the map a little extra ?
    ( For example, We could have the nimbus style dance competition in Club 47? Or perhaps for us Medical/Science officers something where we can solve a Medical emergency themed Puzzle?)


    Also i have a slightly off topic suggestion, Could we make the orbital Drydocks into functional Repair contacts? So we can fly through them and get fixed up like in the Startrek Legacy game , Maybe even have WorkBees that spawn for the extra cool factor ? Instead of going to the random NPC inside the Spacedock
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  • edited February 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I remember when K7 had a floor that looked like dirt. the current version is much better than the old K7. :P
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  • dessniperdessniper Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    If cryptic ever decides to open up the Gamma Quadrant to regular game play, I say use the original ESD station as the Gamma opposite of Deep Space 9.
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    That thing was so ugly I don't miss it.
  • peetapipmacpeetapipmac Member Posts: 2,131 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I can't believe there are two threads about this now!:eek:

    How can that many people think the old version was better?
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  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I can't believe there are two threads about this now!:eek:

    How can that many people think the old version was better?

    Nostalgia goggles.
  • scififan78scififan78 Member Posts: 1,383 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I had proposed way back when the ESD was swapped that the old ESD should be used in Gamma Orianis for Omega Command. They could replace all those ships floating by the gate with a single structure. Have a couple of ships from each faction orbiting and patrolling the aera.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    jeffel82 wrote: »
    Yeah, it's the same basic map - the only thing one could get nostalgic about IMO is the upstairs Club 47 lounge.

    All the more reason to rebuild DS9's interior instead! :D

    Oh, yes, please!
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2014
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I've been advocating rebuilding ESD's interior forever. You will hear no argument from me.
    However, there really ISN'T any canon to what the INTERIOR looks like.

    There are a few glimpses of the observation deck as the Ent limps home, and a couple of other random rooms, but it's very random and incoherent.

    Pleas forget ESD and focus on a canon DS9 interior (I couldn't care less about exterior scaling)
    The Belfast, TOS, Scimitar, and Andorian bridges were canon perfect, DS9 needs that love and attention.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
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  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    May I presume any of the staff have seen these starbase blueprints? (yes, I know this is SB-79, but it's similar in design to SB-1/ESD)

    The bulging middle section is actually a giant terrestrial park-like area with a holographic "sky"

    Last time I checked this is just some fan-fiction and not canon.;)
  • captwcaptw Member Posts: 492 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    they need to fix the scaling sizes of everything in the game, and/or give us Utopia Planitia Ship Yards as the place where you get your ship... which is where most Captains do get their ships. Enterprise D launched from Utopia Planitia, The Defiant launched from Utopia Planitia, and Voyager launched from Utopia Planitia. The ones in ESD are there for Repairs/Decommission or undergoing a test of some sort, why we saw the Excelsior in Star Trek 3.
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  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    jeffel82 wrote: »
    All the more reason to rebuild DS9's interior instead! :D

    Please. Thank you.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I've been advocating rebuilding ESD's interior forever. You will hear no argument from me.
    However, there really ISN'T any canon to what the INTERIOR looks like.

    There are a few glimpses of the observation deck as the Ent limps home, and a couple of other random rooms, but it's very random and incoherent.

    One thing I would suggest doing is clarifying the civilian/military presence.

    It's always been fuzzy on Trek. I think they tried playing the Promenade as being somewhat unique on DS9 but then on the Enterprise, Guinan runs Ten Forward, Mot runs the barbershop, and there are school classrooms. People discuss themed restaurants and bars on Federation facilities.

    I think Thomas, when he created ESD's signage, had a nice analogy when he mentioned airports. I think it is one part airport and with the number of people we have running around out of uniform, it would look better clarified as at least partly a civilian installation.

    I think the Army PX, Navy NEX, and Air Force BX are also good examples. They have Burger King's and whatnot.

    I think it would be nice, functionally, to have a tailorshop/clothing store that actually looks somewhat like a clothing store with mannequins displaying uniforms. It would also be nice to have both an uptempo and a down tempo social location. I like the idea of a dancefloor/rave as uptempo but I think you'd make a lot of people happy if you had a little Sisko's Restaurant or Vic's or something where extinguishers and devices are disabled and you'd make Zinc happy if just the tables in that one bar couldn't be jumped on, I think.
  • adverberoadverbero Member Posts: 2,045 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    One thing I would suggest doing is clarifying the civilian/military presence.

    It's always been fuzzy on Trek. I think they tried playing the Promenade as being somewhat unique on DS9 but then on the Enterprise, Guinan runs Ten Forward, Mot runs the barbershop, and there are school classrooms. People discuss themed restaurants and bars on Federation facilities.

    I think Thomas, when he created ESD's signage, had a nice analogy when he mentioned airports. I think it is one part airport and with the number of people we have running around out of uniform, it would look better clarified as at least partly a civilian installation.

    I think the Army PX, Navy NEX, and Air Force BX are also good examples. They have Burger King's and whatnot.

    I think thats quite a good idea, I personally like the idea of adding more Decks to the Interior, Well my suggestion would be to have an open to civilians Commerce section of the base with areas designed for social stuff like Club 47, as well as the tailor , And then on a different deck have a Starfleet only deck, with Armory's, shipyard facilities etc
    solar_approach_by_chaos_sandwhich-d74kjft.png


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  • senatorvreenaksenatorvreenak Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I was always under the impression that federation starships would routinely ferry civilians while on their way on courier or resupply missions.
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    One thing I would suggest doing is clarifying the civilian/military presence.

    It's always been fuzzy on Trek. I think they tried playing the Promenade as being somewhat unique on DS9 but then on the Enterprise, Guinan runs Ten Forward, Mot runs the barbershop, and there are school classrooms. People discuss themed restaurants and bars on Federation facilities.

    Oddly, TOS did this the best.
  • pweistheworstpweistheworst Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I much prefer the current ESD as it appeared in the movies and TV shows.

    The old ESD that was created by the Cryptic team would - as previously mentioned - make a cool starbase to put out near one of the borders near another faction.

    In fact, if we ever have access to the Gamma Quadrant - maybe with the addition of a Cardassian/True Way/Dominion faction - then I would LOVE to see the old ESD model used as the main Federation starbase/shipyard in the Gamma Quadrant.
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  • tacofangstacofangs Member Posts: 2,951 Cryptic Developer
    edited February 2014
    druhin wrote: »
    I think it's pretty well established, that we know virtually nothing of what ESD should look like inside. Which means that you could essentially design ESD any way you want. The current ESD isn't "bad", but it's a bit cumbersome to move around. Making the place easier to navigate, use the turbolift more frequently would be a move in the right direction (if it can be done without a loading screen).

    No. . . it's bad. I'd be all over a rebuild if it happens. :::crosses taquitos:::

    robdmc wrote: »
    Oh. I guess the current ESD is like that too. Kinda like cannon. Never mind, carry on.

    HA! See!? It IS canon!
    May I presume any of the staff have seen these starbase blueprints? (yes, I know this is SB-79, but it's similar in design to SB-1/ESD)

    The bulging middle section is actually a giant terrestrial park-like area with a holographic "sky"


    Yup, I think I even have a copy of the print version somewhere around here. . .

    Ya, that park would be pretty cool, but would probably be too much work, and too much essentially unused space for a hub.

    tangolight wrote: »
    I'm not quite sure what's so bad with it right now. It's color coded, there are labels and written signs on the walls, and you can cut across the middle to get from one section to the next if it's not adjacent.

    No, it's bad. Yes, everything is accessible, and yes, everything has signs pointing to it, but it's still very confusing. The fact that it's a full loop actually makes it more confusing than if it were just a big arc. I also hate that it's supposed to be in that giant dome park that Phoenix pointed out, but the whole thing is only 400' across instead of the 3000' across that dome is supposed to be. That makes the whole place feel incredibly fake to me. And art is dated and ugly. Doesn't represent 2409 very well. If we ever redo it, I will push hard to make sure that the new interior is the size it should be for where ever in the station it's supposed to be placed.
    mikefl wrote: »
    I went on there to look at the old ESD interior... it was really drab. I do miss the upstairs ship area that used to be in it but I like the new shipyard view better. The only thing I don't care for much is the color-coded signage around the current ESD. Would look better if it had a more "trek" appearance. I liked the old ESD signage better than the new ones but even those could have used in update.

    Signage in general is an issue. Those signs never felt right. We tried to touch them up a little, but they're still pretty bad. Signs need to stand out, and be noticeable, but they also need to feel like they belong to the space they are in.
    *snip*

    I agree with pretty much all of this.
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  • sychosis99sychosis99 Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    If anything from the old ESD were to return, I'd rather have that old lounge area than the neon 80's night club that the new ESD has.
  • direphoenixdirephoenix Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Yup, I think I even have a copy of the print version somewhere around here. . .

    Ya, that park would be pretty cool, but would probably be too much work, and too much essentially unused space for a hub.

    You say that the park would be too much unused space, but then I see the in-game "Sovereign" bridge football stadiums...

    I think you could make it in several "levels":
    • Level 1 (top): Spacedock
      • this level holds everything to do with ships. Ship components, Ship vendors, Ship selection, Ship customization, Engineer (repairs)
      • I see this being built as the center triple-pronged column in the middle of the mushroom cap with windows looking out toward the large bay doors
      • Ideally, if I could have my way with this level, there would be a door to a personal instance that shows the player's ship docked outside. This instance could work like the player bridges, where players can invite people into their instance to see the instance owner's ship. (Good for launching ceremonies/receptions)
    • Level 2: Administrative level
      • this holds most of the "starfleet" NPCs and functions, and where most of the "work" is done. Admiral Promotes-anyone-with-a-pulse, Personnel, Sickbay, Security Doff Assignments, Mission Difficulty Selector NPC, etc, can all be found here.
    • Level 3: Recreation/Social/Park
      • this is where we can find Club 47 (take three), the tailor, the exchange, galaxy race NPC, and perhaps even more "social" settings and NPCs. (the park as described in the blueprints have a lake, a forest, and an auditorum/stage
      • I picture this as being about the same size as the Bajor city (which is, admittedly, much smaller than the depiction of the park), with a large central column serving as a turbolift corridor to the other levels)
    • Level 4 and below: Holodecks/station power generators/foundry hookups
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2014
    Perhaps a shuttlebay for access to fleet holdings.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
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    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
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  • kagasenseikagasensei Member Posts: 526 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    tacofangs wrote: »
    No. . . it's bad. I'd be all over a rebuild if it happens. :::crosses taquitos:::




    HA! See!? It IS canon!




    Yup, I think I even have a copy of the print version somewhere around here. . .

    Ya, that park would be pretty cool, but would probably be too much work, and too much essentially unused space for a hub.




    No, it's bad. Yes, everything is accessible, and yes, everything has signs pointing to it, but it's still very confusing. The fact that it's a full loop actually makes it more confusing than if it were just a big arc. I also hate that it's supposed to be in that giant dome park that Phoenix pointed out, but the whole thing is only 400' across instead of the 3000' across that dome is supposed to be. That makes the whole place feel incredibly fake to me. And art is dated and ugly. Doesn't represent 2409 very well. If we ever redo it, I will push hard to make sure that the new interior is the size it should be for where ever in the station it's supposed to be placed.



    Signage in general is an issue. Those signs never felt right. We tried to touch them up a little, but they're still pretty bad. Signs need to stand out, and be noticeable, but they also need to feel like they belong to the space they are in.



    I agree with pretty much all of this.



    I guess, what people try to say is, that it is bad, but that there are even worse spots in the game, albeit none that are as important and central as ESD (e.g., Deep Space K-7 interior - which should look like its TOS-template, but in fact looks like a illogical, quickly thrown-together generic boring non-Star Trek space station).

    WHEN you redesign ESD, keep in mind the general philosophy applied with the First City. Not everything has to be functional. It is those epic canon-looking places, that exist just as sort of a side-show, which breathe life, credibility and "Trekiness" into a hub (e.g., the blood wine-bar, the spalding ring, the Old Quarters, the slums etc etc etc.).

    AND: @direphoenix: Several levels might sound canon and epic, but it is in fact a very very bad idea for a good hub. Any ESD redesign should and will be aimed at making it prettier, more canon/trekky, BUT ALSO making it a better hub. Several levels just make it confusing and artificially separate the whole place.
  • kagasenseikagasensei Member Posts: 526 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    sychosis99 wrote: »
    If anything from the old ESD were to return, I'd rather have that old lounge area than the neon 80's night club that the new ESD has.

    ^^This. Just look at the canon-looking cozy seating areas in the Fleet Starbases.

    c2bb13ed81924b45632776f7d0f4f88e1345662438.jpg
    cb9107525ec125e38e032d370745fdfa1351722243.jpg

    That ridiculous disco-club in ESD was just put up, so people could show off their stupid dance emotes. The Devs will have to decide whether they want that or a canon-trek-feeling of the place. I claim that only one is possible.
  • toivatoiva Member Posts: 3,276 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    The 'park idea' doesn't really fit ESD since the dock takes a lot of place there.

    And Taco, I'm definitely with you on the size corrections.
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  • timelord79timelord79 Member Posts: 1,852 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I would like a 3 level version, too.

    And yes, the whole thing should have wide open areas to show of the size of the station. Remember this thing is the biggest construction the Federation has.

    Administrative section should be in one of those needle spires on top, where everything is arranged around a central column with a 360? view of the other spires and the mushroom dome underneath.

    Shipyard section could either be in the outer shell of the mushroom dome or, I would like it better that way, again in the central column but with a wider circumference and maybe -4 short transfer shuttle rides (more like a tram with view outside), not to get from section to section. Doesn't need to utilize every meter around the station.
    Every section could show of different types of ships (cruisers, science, escorts and dreadnaughts/carriers) because the view is similar to the shipyard view we have now, just more different angles.
    This would also be the entrance area where shuttles arrive and main transporter is located. Basically the stations airport


    3rd section would be recreational with the mentioned park, shops, bars, clubs, medical facilities and living quarters etc.
    This section would be in the more slim area below the mushroom dome somewhere.
    here a view to space and earth would be nice again, so location should be in the outer layer not in the core column and no 360? area around the station is required.
    However it could also show that the central core is in fact empty and the player can look up and down the giant shaft toward the shipyard bottom and teh power core/engineering.
    11750640_1051211588222593_450219911807924697_n.jpg
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Just a thought but one of the issues with small spaces versus large seems to be, well... runspeed.

    I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the TOS interiors. Racing down the halls makes sense. But sprinting around sickbay looks bad and is one area where I can see interior size being a big issue.

    So here's my thought:

    Could you have volume effects that shift people to walking?

    A lot of MMOs traditionally dismounted players in smaller or more confined spaces. I think it would add to the look of the game... and I've always said that "roleplay" should go beyond text. I think it should have a ludic component, like the Sims or various social games. I think a social action bar with realtime social actions that are parsed as combat (bluff, persuade, perception rolls) would be amazing.

    But I actually can see a rationale for allowing/automatically having running outdoors and in hallways/corridors but transitioning indoor spaces to walking first, whether or not a social action bar could ever happen. Because otherwise you see a lot of what looks like people scraping their knees and elbows ramming into countertops every time they move.
  • canis36canis36 Member Posts: 737 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    So, probably going to get lynched for even suggesting it, but...

    I'm of the opinion that the canon ESD model is old enough that it should have been decommissioned and replaced with something more modern a good while ago. I got to thinking about it a bit more and...

    What about at some point in the future replacing ESD, both exterior and interior, with the Fleet Starbase model and layout (or a variant of the interior). It would require less work to use existing assets I'd think and it would also provide a nice preview of what you could have if you work hard enough. It's even got an Admiral's office for you to put Quinn IIRC.
  • jeffel82jeffel82 Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    canis36 wrote: »
    I'm of the opinion that the canon ESD model is old enough that it should have been decommissioned and replaced with something more modern a good while ago.

    It's a valid opinion, though I disagree.

    Assuming the station was constructed using Starfleet's vaunted modular design, it should be relatively easy to upgrade and maintain the structure...less costly in terms of materials and manpower than building a new station from scratch.

    The TNG technical manual (yes, questionable canonicity) said that the Galaxy class starships were designed to be in service for over 100 years due to these principles.

    Perhaps most importantly, it's what most Star Trek fans would probably prefer to see - the things they fell in love with.
    You're right. The work here is very important.
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  • psiameesepsiameese Member Posts: 1,650 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I thoroughly agree with the perspective that Earth Space Dock is more than just a Starfleet facility. I would enjoy seeing an interior revamp which separates Starfleet administrative features from things like Club 47.

    I think the idea of placing the Starfleet departments and the old Crew Lounge (no music needed) inside the hub of the topmost mushroom comes across nicely to me. Place Club 47, the Exchange and even the Tailor (which I don't consider an exclusively Starfleet function) on an entirely different map level. So those of us who enjoy socializing and showing off our dance moves can do that. Those who don't want to have to see us dancing can stay in the shipyard. Or the Admiral's office.

    And by all means, incorporate some collision borders on top of consoles, desks and tables (even in Club 47). I don't choose to dance on those. I understand how distracting it may be for other player's. I stick to the spirit of the dance floors.
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