I can't belive no one has brought up the most effective counter to vapers: communication. In matches against vapers I always look for the signed of an incoming vapers and warn the victim. Usually there is a 2 second or so window for the team to send heals before they explode. If you have a fast enough team, hazards can Be sent in time to save the victim. 1 or 2 people cross healing effectively can negate a vaper....mostly haha. There are exceptions to every rule.
A few days ago I queued 5 times for pvp as KDF. I played 2 arenas 3 capture and hold all fvk . First arena match was good and balanced ~15/9 we won. The other arena match was unplayable some guys playing in tavros or something couldn't see "they fly very fast", they fire their BO, and transphasic torpedos and immediately cloak after that .... the whole team! Can't fire on them can't do anything PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE?.
After the first 5/ 0 some of mine team members leave, some just want the dill so they fly away and get instantly killed . 15 /0 that was fun!
The other search and destroy matches were total opposites. The first one was fatal fed defeat they had like 2-3 players vs 8, or more of kdf .
But the other two matches had a team of lots of scimitars flying very close form one point to the next, and the all were shooting beam arrays. Even the aceton assimilator gets vanished instantly under that fire. Again no defense is working, and the team break up.
So of 5 total matches I had like fun in maybe 1.
1. I don't like escorts using beam weapons in that extreme way.
2. I don't like the queue team arrangement.
3. Having to fight a team, or a group thats all the time under battlecloak is no fun.
It takes only 1 cloaker to kill you anyway. I know that STO have nothing to do with STAR TREK but I remember that when Kirk was fighting that romulan commander that the romulan ship had to use a lot of power under that battlecloak to maintain it.
There should be some limits! :rolleyes:
The bottom line is.. cryptic doesn't know what they are doing unless it has to do with dollar signs and we all see through it.
To sum up how ridiculous it is... Cryptic, I challenge you to make a proton barrage doff that when it strikes and kills a target, it vapes someone else within 30KM.
That's how ridiculous I think cryptic is for a dollar.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
The bottom line is.. cryptic doesn't know what they are doing unless it has to do with dollar signs and we all see through it.
To sum up how ridiculous it is... Cryptic, I challenge you to make a proton barrage doff that when it strikes and kills a target, it vapes someone else within 30KM.
That's how ridiculous I think cryptic is for a dollar.
Maybe that's the Super Secret March Madness they've mentioned - but denied it being pretty much anything anybody could think of, eh?
They're not even trying to deny that they're selling powercreep and "P2W" any more...so who knows, eh?
Maybe that's the Super Secret March Madness they've mentioned - but denied it being pretty much anything anybody could think of, eh?
They're not even trying to deny that they're selling powercreep and "P2W" any more...so who knows, eh?
Well, I'm logging into the game less and less, so they aren't winning my loyalty. If they are trying to shut out PvPers, they are succeeding.
Cryptic couldn't program a PvP engine if their life depended on it, and I'm glad they don't make tactical simulations for our government because all the jet fighters would be like... "why are my controls greyed out and I can't fire my missiles?" #$&(*#TRIBBLE!
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Well, I'm logging into the game less and less, so they aren't winning my loyalty. If they are trying to shut out PvPers, they are succeeding.
Cryptic couldn't program a PvP engine if their life depended on it, and I'm glad they don't make tactical simulations for our government because all the jet fighters would be like... "why are my controls greyed out and I can't fire my missiles?" #$&(*#TRIBBLE!
It's much harder to balance PvP in F2P than P2P, though...
...it's also kind of funny thinking about it, in a sense. I'm not one of those DPS guys - so I don't need to grind/spend to keep up with everybody there...and since stepping away from PvP, I don't have that grind/spend stress either.
It's why I believe the following:
1) Cryptic is trying to cater to everybody that's ever heard of Star Trek, regardless of their ability to play any sort of game. They've lowered the bar so much in this game to reach as many potential customers as possible...that while it may cause some to /facepalm, it's actually doing very well by Cryptic/PWE.
2) The DPS stuff is an anomaly - a bonus if you will for Cryptic. You've got all these folks that so massively overgear the content patting themselves on the back while grinding/spending away happily. Cryptic will take it.
3) There's PvP, where with all the complaints from folks - well, folks are still grinding/spending away to keep up with other folks. There's a lot of griping...but there's still money coming in from that small percentage of the playerbase. They can toss a few bones here and there, to keep folks from walking en masse - and - new players trying to catch up are going to have to spend more...those little infusions of revenue. Cryptic will take it.
With #1, that bar is going to keep getting dropped until puppies are playing the game on their iPhones. With #2, do they care? They're ready to nuke goldfish in a barrel so they can pat themselves on the back. With #3, if folks did walk away - Cryptic would probably either shut PvP down or just leave it in maintenance mode...giving it less attention than it gets.
The game is what it is...
edit: Lol, I'm going to be 42 this year...and I'm chasing around lil' q's - it's just a silly waste of time that may or may not be entertaining. Odds are, if TV didn't suck as much as it did...I'd probably just watch more of that to pass my free time.
It's much harder to balance PvP in F2P than P2P, though...
...it's also kind of funny thinking about it, in a sense. I'm not one of those DPS guys - so I don't need to grind/spend to keep up with everybody there...and since stepping away from PvP, I don't have that grind/spend stress either.
It's why I believe the following:
1) Cryptic is trying to cater to everybody that's ever heard of Star Trek, regardless of their ability to play any sort of game. They've lowered the bar so much in this game to reach as many potential customers as possible...that while it may cause some to /facepalm, it's actually doing very well by Cryptic/PWE.
2) The DPS stuff is an anomaly - a bonus if you will for Cryptic. You've got all these folks that so massively overgear the content patting themselves on the back while grinding/spending away happily. Cryptic will take it.
3) There's PvP, where with all the complaints from folks - well, folks are still grinding/spending away to keep up with other folks. There's a lot of griping...but there's still money coming in from that small percentage of the playerbase. They can toss a few bones here and there, to keep folks from walking en masse - and - new players trying to catch up are going to have to spend more...those little infusions of revenue. Cryptic will take it.
With #1, that bar is going to keep getting dropped until puppies are playing the game on their iPhones. With #2, do they care? They're ready to nuke goldfish in a barrel so they can pat themselves on the back. With #3, if folks did walk away - Cryptic would probably either shut PvP down or just leave it in maintenance mode...giving it less attention than it gets.
The game is what it is...
Yeah 1s find this game hard, you can find them everywhere and I don't just mean the inexperience people in Kerrat, they are...I don't know where, I know they're there though. Failing optionals, failing normal STFs, failing fleet missions.
2s are only doing it for measuring how far they're progressing at nuking and to get mats quicker for getting stuff they like in order to get freaky one day in a T1 connie and possibly nuke an STF.
3s cry a lot but in the end they're just as bad as the 2s.
Game doesn't change much, even these forums.
Incidentally for anyone in game at the time I just finished NWS on my KDF engineer with no doffs and pretty much nothing spent on her since Season 6 with no rep. Even by season 6 standards all she had was borg gear and managed all waves on east easily up to 9 where she was annihilated by multiple VM spam. Still spawned in time to help win it, just shows how easy this game is.
I'm gonna try it on my romulan sci, if I get the accolade then I'm quitting as there's just no challenge to the game at all.
Lol, I'm going to be 42 this year...and I'm chasing around lil' q's - it's just a silly waste of time that may or may not be entertaining. Odds are, if TV didn't suck as much as it did...I'd probably just watch more of that to pass my free time.
One of the sadest things I've read on the forums for a while. Really makes you wonder...
No it's just sad that most people I know don't really play the game anymore, there's no challenge, little to strive for or repeat for something other than artificial bragging rights. They log in, chat, grind out X for something nifty they always wanted but don't need and log off.
If everything else didn't suck as much a helluva lot of people would probably have left and that is something sad.
Like I say if I can do NWS with my what might as well be fresh lvl 50 rom then I'm out as there's really no point continuing.
nothign is sacred. ion or proton isnt any more fair*than iso, tetrion, regular bo
its new tho, somethign different. not even the best play, raw ion is. point is u can play sci and other builds ill keep doing what im doing, maybe a lil different one day to the next. cheers and no hard feelings to op or any posters (except duck dynasty: you will cry that jacob is gone to protect ur slimy fed rom kvork!)
Kerrat tody
RCK (in his Patrol Escort) : "I live!"
Me : Flew in from far away, "Were you attacked, you look undamaged."
Before RCK had the chance to reply, K'Vork spotted an orange dot hanging at the upper left corner of his screen that reads : "Emoe"
Long story short : Emoe (aka. Mini) went kaboom soon after and RCK was successful in dodging Mini's alpha using speed.
But unlike Mini, we didn't announce his death in OPvP.
For a while, I enjoyed the challenge of surviving the "gank" in Ker'rat, or outsmarting Mini and Zenith in their "vaper" builds. But lately, with the endless power creep and ridiculous damage levels from proton weapons (95K through full shields and with 2x fleet neutroniums + the mark 12 borg 2-piece), it just isn't worth the effort.
I spent years grinding out ships and gear - fleet defiant/excelsior, all the Omega sets, then the fleet weapons/shield, then the embassy consoles, and now the fleet spire consoles - only to get "pwned" by 1 shot glass cannons that wouldn't last 5 seconds against me out in the open. STO has gone from a game of skill and timing to one of waiting for the next insta-vaper to roll into the war zone and then hoping he picks on someone else for a change (they never do - I've become a vape-magnet).
So, with that, I'm done with STO for a while. Here's hoping Season 9 provides some incentive to return. But for now, cya...
RCK
First of all, if you are getting 95k hits with proton, maybe u should using the subspace field generator lol, and don't feed his gdf. With those 2 things in mind, u probably wont get more than a 30k hit every 3minutes or so....
Mini proton hits wasn't able of kill my jem'hadar, the only way he scored a kill on me was if he caught me with pants down fighting vs others, the rest of the times he exploded. I'm agree is not easy survive those attacks, but isn't easy do them neither, there is much random chance thing, and playing like mini u have a 120% of die after the attack, is a trade-kill build, i don't see how that can be a problem.
And how many guys playing like mini u will find? nobody, there is many vapers thats' right, but most of them care about dying so they have to make some sacrifices, mini don't.
I'm agree that there is too much criticial chance and criticial severity in general, but i don't see how proton can be a problem, u need to sacrifice a lot of your BO damage for get a decent proton barrege hit.
And how many guys playing like mini u will find? nobody, there is many vapers thats' right, but most of them care about dying, so they have to make some sacrifices, mini don't.
Actually, there are lot of Klink vapers who play like Mini but none of them is as obsessed about big numbers as he is. And Mini does care about dying...in fact, he cares a great deal. He uses Jam Sensor and/or Alpha Deception console to get away and run at first sign of trouble. It doesn't matter who his target is, whenever he sees me, he will immediately jam sensor me, then run for his life so I have to act quickly before he had the chance to jam sensor. Mini is no longer using a "Minimax" build per say. The only thing he doesn't have is heals but he does have many escape toys.
As for the other vapers, it's more or less than same set up with some minor variations. But the principles are the same, stacking iso, cascading tetryon, bo, ion, and etc. all at once. Few uses proton barrage however because most people realize how BS it is.
Once more, and for the record, I was NOT using SFM at the time of the attack.
Again, I *knew* Mini was coming - I had a full 5 minutes (his CD time from a previous attack on another player) to change-up gear and plan out my response. And one of the things I made sure NOT to do was to activate SFM for the reasons outlined in this thread.
If anything contributed to the huge hit it was my switch to an Adapted MACO shield for the higher cap (I also slotted a field generator in place of my leech). I wanted as a strong an energy-based defense as I could create, combined with nearly 50% all-damage resist at the hull level. The lack of a shield proc against his non-proton portion of the attack - plus him stripping my buffs with the barrage (I'm guess PH went out the window, as did RSP, Omega or perhaps TT) - is what did me in as he'd never scored that high before.
Bottom Line: He got a 95K, non-crit hit against a prepared, hardened target with a sizable hull (60K+), no glaring defensive holes (i.e. SFM, which was NOT active), end-game gear (though, in hindsight, the shield was a liability), and what most would consider to be good reflexes.
Remember, this is a ship that tanks Queen Scora's mega-FBP and which had, hitherto, been so successful at countering vaper builders that said players began using it as a kind of benchmark kill. Yet Mini turned me into space dust with the push of a button.
Comments
After the first 5/ 0 some of mine team members leave, some just want the dill so they fly away and get instantly killed . 15 /0 that was fun!
The other search and destroy matches were total opposites. The first one was fatal fed defeat they had like 2-3 players vs 8, or more of kdf .
But the other two matches had a team of lots of scimitars flying very close form one point to the next, and the all were shooting beam arrays. Even the aceton assimilator gets vanished instantly under that fire. Again no defense is working, and the team break up.
So of 5 total matches I had like fun in maybe 1.
1. I don't like escorts using beam weapons in that extreme way.
2. I don't like the queue team arrangement.
3. Having to fight a team, or a group thats all the time under battlecloak is no fun.
It takes only 1 cloaker to kill you anyway. I know that STO have nothing to do with STAR TREK but I remember that when Kirk was fighting that romulan commander that the romulan ship had to use a lot of power under that battlecloak to maintain it.
There should be some limits! :rolleyes:
That would suck. Good thing there's no such thing in STO, eh?
edit: Though, for a period of time at the start of last year before they fixed it - it did exist, and yep - it sucked.
To sum up how ridiculous it is... Cryptic, I challenge you to make a proton barrage doff that when it strikes and kills a target, it vapes someone else within 30KM.
That's how ridiculous I think cryptic is for a dollar.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Maybe that's the Super Secret March Madness they've mentioned - but denied it being pretty much anything anybody could think of, eh?
They're not even trying to deny that they're selling powercreep and "P2W" any more...so who knows, eh?
Well, I'm logging into the game less and less, so they aren't winning my loyalty. If they are trying to shut out PvPers, they are succeeding.
Cryptic couldn't program a PvP engine if their life depended on it, and I'm glad they don't make tactical simulations for our government because all the jet fighters would be like... "why are my controls greyed out and I can't fire my missiles?" #$&(*#TRIBBLE!
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
It's much harder to balance PvP in F2P than P2P, though...
...it's also kind of funny thinking about it, in a sense. I'm not one of those DPS guys - so I don't need to grind/spend to keep up with everybody there...and since stepping away from PvP, I don't have that grind/spend stress either.
It's why I believe the following:
1) Cryptic is trying to cater to everybody that's ever heard of Star Trek, regardless of their ability to play any sort of game. They've lowered the bar so much in this game to reach as many potential customers as possible...that while it may cause some to /facepalm, it's actually doing very well by Cryptic/PWE.
2) The DPS stuff is an anomaly - a bonus if you will for Cryptic. You've got all these folks that so massively overgear the content patting themselves on the back while grinding/spending away happily. Cryptic will take it.
3) There's PvP, where with all the complaints from folks - well, folks are still grinding/spending away to keep up with other folks. There's a lot of griping...but there's still money coming in from that small percentage of the playerbase. They can toss a few bones here and there, to keep folks from walking en masse - and - new players trying to catch up are going to have to spend more...those little infusions of revenue. Cryptic will take it.
With #1, that bar is going to keep getting dropped until puppies are playing the game on their iPhones. With #2, do they care? They're ready to nuke goldfish in a barrel so they can pat themselves on the back. With #3, if folks did walk away - Cryptic would probably either shut PvP down or just leave it in maintenance mode...giving it less attention than it gets.
The game is what it is...
edit: Lol, I'm going to be 42 this year...and I'm chasing around lil' q's - it's just a silly waste of time that may or may not be entertaining. Odds are, if TV didn't suck as much as it did...I'd probably just watch more of that to pass my free time.
Yeah 1s find this game hard, you can find them everywhere and I don't just mean the inexperience people in Kerrat, they are...I don't know where, I know they're there though. Failing optionals, failing normal STFs, failing fleet missions.
2s are only doing it for measuring how far they're progressing at nuking and to get mats quicker for getting stuff they like in order to get freaky one day in a T1 connie and possibly nuke an STF.
3s cry a lot but in the end they're just as bad as the 2s.
Game doesn't change much, even these forums.
Incidentally for anyone in game at the time I just finished NWS on my KDF engineer with no doffs and pretty much nothing spent on her since Season 6 with no rep. Even by season 6 standards all she had was borg gear and managed all waves on east easily up to 9 where she was annihilated by multiple VM spam. Still spawned in time to help win it, just shows how easy this game is.
I'm gonna try it on my romulan sci, if I get the accolade then I'm quitting as there's just no challenge to the game at all.
One of the sadest things I've read on the forums for a while. Really makes you wonder...
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
TV never recovered from the writer's strike.
MMOs were lost with the spread of home broadband.
eBooks cost too damn much...
she'd rather you were a drunk maybe
If everything else didn't suck as much a helluva lot of people would probably have left and that is something sad.
Like I say if I can do NWS with my what might as well be fresh lvl 50 rom then I'm out as there's really no point continuing.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Was that Pharma? I didn't see if you got it or not as you were hitting the end stages - was switching between toons to chase lil' q's...meh.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
How about some Hunter FAW AtB action? :P
Kerrat tody
RCK (in his Patrol Escort) : "I live!"
Me : Flew in from far away, "Were you attacked, you look undamaged."
Before RCK had the chance to reply, K'Vork spotted an orange dot hanging at the upper left corner of his screen that reads : "Emoe"
Long story short : Emoe (aka. Mini) went kaboom soon after and RCK was successful in dodging Mini's alpha using speed.
But unlike Mini, we didn't announce his death in OPvP.
Oh I saw that, it was funny! My team was baiting the KDFs into attacking one of our teammates but they were too scared to go near the borg...
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
And Mini had the audacity to bad mouth RCK in Kerrat zone chat after we blew him up, I mean really? Then he promptly changed instance. Priceless!
HA. Nukes are practically torps and everyone knows we use orbital lasers for superior goldfish killing dps.
First of all, if you are getting 95k hits with proton, maybe u should using the subspace field generator lol, and don't feed his gdf. With those 2 things in mind, u probably wont get more than a 30k hit every 3minutes or so....
Mini proton hits wasn't able of kill my jem'hadar, the only way he scored a kill on me was if he caught me with pants down fighting vs others, the rest of the times he exploded. I'm agree is not easy survive those attacks, but isn't easy do them neither, there is much random chance thing, and playing like mini u have a 120% of die after the attack, is a trade-kill build, i don't see how that can be a problem.
And how many guys playing like mini u will find? nobody, there is many vapers thats' right, but most of them care about dying so they have to make some sacrifices, mini don't.
I'm agree that there is too much criticial chance and criticial severity in general, but i don't see how proton can be a problem, u need to sacrifice a lot of your BO damage for get a decent proton barrege hit.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
I've wondered if that was subject to the standard DR that even affects debuffs or if it was just a hard debuff...
Actually, there are lot of Klink vapers who play like Mini but none of them is as obsessed about big numbers as he is. And Mini does care about dying...in fact, he cares a great deal. He uses Jam Sensor and/or Alpha Deception console to get away and run at first sign of trouble. It doesn't matter who his target is, whenever he sees me, he will immediately jam sensor me, then run for his life so I have to act quickly before he had the chance to jam sensor. Mini is no longer using a "Minimax" build per say. The only thing he doesn't have is heals but he does have many escape toys.
As for the other vapers, it's more or less than same set up with some minor variations. But the principles are the same, stacking iso, cascading tetryon, bo, ion, and etc. all at once. Few uses proton barrage however because most people realize how BS it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeFZXNDz7uA
Matt screaming in anguish at the end.
Again, I *knew* Mini was coming - I had a full 5 minutes (his CD time from a previous attack on another player) to change-up gear and plan out my response. And one of the things I made sure NOT to do was to activate SFM for the reasons outlined in this thread.
If anything contributed to the huge hit it was my switch to an Adapted MACO shield for the higher cap (I also slotted a field generator in place of my leech). I wanted as a strong an energy-based defense as I could create, combined with nearly 50% all-damage resist at the hull level. The lack of a shield proc against his non-proton portion of the attack - plus him stripping my buffs with the barrage (I'm guess PH went out the window, as did RSP, Omega or perhaps TT) - is what did me in as he'd never scored that high before.
Bottom Line: He got a 95K, non-crit hit against a prepared, hardened target with a sizable hull (60K+), no glaring defensive holes (i.e. SFM, which was NOT active), end-game gear (though, in hindsight, the shield was a liability), and what most would consider to be good reflexes.
Remember, this is a ship that tanks Queen Scora's mega-FBP and which had, hitherto, been so successful at countering vaper builders that said players began using it as a kind of benchmark kill. Yet Mini turned me into space dust with the push of a button.
Now THAT's OP...
RCK
Delta - Recluse
Omega - Scimitar
Alpha - MVAM
Beta - Wells