...If people are going to use it like a nitrous boost there should be a risk involved the higher above the visual hard cap the more malfunction prone it would be. It would be hilarious if an escort or cruiser were to end up with only one energy weapon slot working because they were unlucky. If no one likes that the more above the cap the lower your crit chance and severity get and accuracy gets.
You know, that's actually not a bad idea at all, I think. It would make it more interesting if you had to choose like that. Remember when BO3 was really borked (if it's not anymore) and it would miss like...75% of the time? Haha! But when it hit and crit, it was a whopper. So what if overcapping weapon power was kinda like that? The more you overcap, the lower your accuracy. It kinda makes sense. If you exceed the power limits in a weapon system, sure it has a chance to be completely devastating, but it could also backfire and either shutdown/weapons malfunction or have so much power running through it that it's completely impossible to control where that weapon is aimed.
Okay, I didn't read through all of this stuff. But it seems like everyone's comparing beam arrays, to dual cannons. That's just stupid. If you want to compare, need to compare dual beam banks to dual cannon/dual heavy cannon, and beam array to single cannons. So honestly, all the whining I see about firing arcs, is based on a apples to tangerine argument. Single cannons get a much wider than 45 degree arc, yet still benefit from CSV and CRF.
Not to mention, anyone running dbb, has to still use cannons to gain much viability from there aft mounts, just like any cannon user does, but either has to use MORE skill slots, to boost those rear cannons (ie turrets), or not be able to boost them like a "only cannon" ship captain can.
On top of that, CRF affects whatever target you have selected, and scatter volley affects everything in your cone, pretty much equally, whereas FAW randomly picks out targets each shot, you have little control, if there are multiple targets.
So to me, FAW should stay with it's ability to overcap highly, AND get crits, as well as any procs. Cannons/dc/dhc should retain their current overcapping limit.
What I personally would like to see, is BEAM turrets, start coming into play, so a dbb ship doesn't have to sacrifice almost half his slots, into weapons he can't boost (or has to take away other skills from other areas), in order to boost their effectiveness. Because as I see it now, overall, cannon/dc/dhc users still have a distinct advantage, in both single & multiple target environments.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Oooh, like flying straight AT while hitting spacebar takes someone takes SO much effort.
Now, if you have nothing constructive to add, then STFU. I get sick of people trolling.
I don't think hes trolling hes stating a simple fact... lower arc weapons = more dmg by design... or they should... because guess what they have less time on target because... drum roll they are in fact harder to use. (as in takes more skill)
Yes comparing ALL energy weapons to one another is a good thing to do... one of the main balance issues going on 4 years now has been the issues with the differences in the weapon types.
No I am not just pointing at single beam arrays... right now though yes single beam arrays are overpowered when you consider there arc and range to hit factors. They have the best of both of those with out the a real down side as there dmg at the moment is consistantly high due to there odd firing cycle mechanics.
As I was saying a few up... its time to stop swinging the pendulam back and forth every season. Where cannons are the best energy wepaon for a few months and then beams and then back again.
Its time to make standard there range dmg curves... and there firing arcs. I would also say remove the idea of 2 weapon classes when it comes to energy weapon modification skills. Allow both of the wepaon types to use any energy dmg skill... and make the determining factor being arc and dmg numbers... higher arc weapons should = lower per hit dmg, while the wider arcs should allow for a more even dmg over time. DPS pretty much equaling out if both are piloted correctly. Lower Arcs providing higher burst and wider arcs providing consistant pressure dmg.
The fact that single beam arrays do more actual dmg then a single cannon is silly... they have more arc more range and due to interactions with firing cycle and overcap they are providing dps more in line with consistant on target DHC. Its broken plain and simple and needs to be addressed, in a way that doesn't swing the pendulam back to a point where DHC rule all for another 6 months.
I would prefer them to be differentiated more, more focused on a purpose so that they are chosen for tactical reasons and used accordingly. Right now they are mostly interchangeable and the confusion lies in the differences that are non-obvious (like firing cycles and damage drop-off). I'd rather cannons just pack a whallop but miss more often, beams be precise but do less damage, and have it be obvious. More mechwarrior less swords and sorcery
fly against targets that are evading. then compare 270 degress to 180 or 270 vs. 45, tell me which one is fundamentally EASIER.
Even CSV requires you to be facing the target. FAW just requires you to be within 10K of the target(s).
Like I said, it takes no effort to line up your shot, when you're covering everything in range in a 270 degree arc.
Not for me it doesn't, lol. But then again, I play a lot of racing sims, and flight sims (as well as mech sims), that require "fancy" maneuvering, so maybe I'm just used to that. All it takes is "point the nose at your target".
Oh, and also, I've DONE it in this game. Particularly easy in anything that cloaks, escort types, and even some cruisers/battle cruisers. My Mirror Vo'Quv of course, is about the hardest, I wouldn't really plan on taking that thing up against a nimble adversary, that has the unpredictability, and intelligence, of a live person, without far far more practice in that thing.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I would prefer them to be differentiated more, more focused on a purpose so that they are chosen for tactical reasons and used accordingly. Right now they are mostly interchangeable and the confusion lies in the differences that are non-obvious (like firing cycles and damage drop-off). I'd rather cannons just pack a whallop but miss more often, beams be precise but do less damage, and have it be obvious. More mechwarrior less swords and sorcery
Well that is sort of the issue... as long as they make them drasticly different one will ALWAYS depending on the meta at the time be the best option.
Thats why I would vote for a system where beams and cannons are almost no different at all... with the only real issues being the advantage of the extremely small arc DHC... and the advantage of the arc overlap builds (beam arrays) where full turret boat would have little advanatage over beam arrays.... which would be a good mix of more dmg due to reduced arc but still enough to bring 8 to bear.
This would mean that spike wise DHC and cannons would still be best option... with Dual beams not being very far behind. (DC could be given the same arc as DBB 90 degree) The choice between the 2 would be pure cosmetic... and I would be fine with that.
Lets give let the RP guys have a pure wet dream style game where they could mix and match beams and cannons.... DBB with Turrets... single cannons and beams. Who cares it would mostly be for looks.
There is precedence in older MMOs that have pretty much done the same thing... I know its not a direct comparison but for instance where it used to have advantage to swing a sword instead of a mace... so no one swung a mace... they have been equalized and people run both only on which ever look they prefer. It improved balance in those games. Honestly the PvP guys ended up happy to have more weapon/build options... and the RP guys where in heaven as they didn't have to gimp themselves because there "toon" would never swing X. lol
just about all cannon problems can be blamed on turrets. thats what arrays have over DHC, they are pared with each other front to back, wile you can only have DHCs up front, and turrets or nothing adding to your dps aft. frankly, none of the forward only cannons were balanced correctly, due to their turret handycap. single cannons are a tragedy, oh they do a bit more DPS then a beam array, but you have to pare them with turrets, this ruins them vs just going all arrays, 4/4 of singles and turrets have quite a bit less dps then just 8 arrays. its pathetic that such a thing made it live, and has been that way since launch.
TRIBBLE turrets! remove them from the game! make single cannons aft mountable, and then re balance the damage and DPS of DCs and DHC, and even DBB by keeping in mind you cant get 7 or 8 of them on a target, only 3-5. to fix DCs, id just plain give them higher DPS then DHCs. they would still have less burst, thats the point of using DHCs
Single cannons are nothing more than 180 degree turret with slightly more dps and more drain. If you are going single cannon, its probably better to go all turrets.
Sorry but a beam by its nature should be weaker than something that has a smaller firing arc. Especially when you consider the fact that it is impossible to get out of a beam arrays arc especially with circle jerk up evasion. To be good at healing or CC or damage should require some level of skill and when one ship can do both well with little to get in its way its broken. The problem with FAW has always been the fact that you did not need a target selected to do damage which makes a cruiser team so dangerous, the FAW rains down and not much you can do about it.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
I would be ok with FAW hitting less targets. You realize how obnoxious it is when i am trying to TRIBBLE shoot the probes in khit only to shoot everything else.
CSV and CRF have the advantage in hitting selected targets, mainly whats in front of you.
FAW you have to make sure you are away from things you dont want to hit.
BFAW should do the same max of 2 targets but it should only fire at the 2 CLOSEST targets. As it stand FAW just haphazardly sprays energy around. It needs to be a FOCUSABLE attack. That alone will help.
Give it whatever and whatnot, but make it FOCUSABLE.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I would be ok with FAW hitting less targets. You realize how obnoxious it is when i am trying to TRIBBLE shoot the probes in khit only to shoot everything else.
CSV and CRF have the advantage in hitting selected targets, mainly whats in front of you.
FAW you have to make sure you are away from things you dont want to hit.
BFAW should do the same max of 2 targets but it should only fire at the 2 CLOSEST targets. As it stand FAW just haphazardly sprays energy around. It needs to be a FOCUSABLE attack. That alone will help.
Give it whatever and whatnot, but make it FOCUSABLE.
So you'd like to see FAW work more like CSV? Where have I heard that before? hmm....
Seriously, it's the best proposal I've heard for fixing FAW as a stand alone power. As for the over-capping, A2B and the imbalances it causes? Well, I think VirusDancer and Antonio's ideas for standardizing weapon output based on their arc and eliminating over-capping as a pseudo-balancing mechanism is a really good start.
I would be ok with FAW hitting less targets. You realize how obnoxious it is when i am trying to TRIBBLE shoot the probes in khit only to shoot everything else.
CSV and CRF have the advantage in hitting selected targets, mainly whats in front of you.
FAW you have to make sure you are away from things you dont want to hit.
BFAW should do the same max of 2 targets but it should only fire at the 2 CLOSEST targets. As it stand FAW just haphazardly sprays energy around. It needs to be a FOCUSABLE attack. That alone will help.
Give it whatever and whatnot, but make it FOCUSABLE.
I agree... this is why I say delete Faw as it exists... and adjust Scatter volley to work with beams... they can rename it faw if they think the name needs to be around.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I have a question to ask, mostly for those who've been around for a long time:
Were single cannons EVER at any point considered OP?
I don't really think so. Maybe, if there was ever a time for it to be somewhat useful, was when STO released and Weapons Drain was a major consideration because it recovered so slowly. DHCs were not widespread because of the massive power drain from a single attack run.
I have a question to ask, mostly for those who've been around for a long time:
Were single cannons EVER at any point considered OP?
I don't think so. Before they changed the phaser procs.... they where semi useful.
There was also way back like season 1-2 time frame a way to use 1 single cannon in a grouping with DHC to increase overall dps.
Since then they have played with procs and weapon cycles a little bit here and there and I honestly think they broke a few things never noticed as well... and at this point the current devs just assume some stuff is working as intended although it likely wasn't what was intended at all.
Well, might be worth looking into a bit more then. Mostly because I think that not only has a lot of power creep and mechanic-y stuff let BAs take front-stage, Single Cannons (psst, I still want single heavy cannons Cryptic, I'd pay Zen for that unlock) have really REALLY fallen by the wayside. Because they simply aren't good enough of an option compared to beams, and that's unfortunate.
I won't take away from this thread, but I might make a thread in the Builds section to maybe see if we can get the devs attention to maybe take a look at them. If they ever really do majorly muck around with beams, it'd be really good I think if single cannons were changed somehow to be worth considering. I do feel that there are ships with decent turn, but can't use DHCs which could make Single Cannons worth using, BUT the SCs themselves aren't worth using because beams are simply a superior option right now.
But like I said, I will make a different thread. I asked because I noticed some folks mentioning single cannons on the previous page.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Well, might be worth looking into a bit more then. Mostly because I think that not only has a lot of power creep and mechanic-y stuff let BAs take front-stage, Single Cannons (psst, I still want single heavy cannons Cryptic, I'd pay Zen for that unlock) have really REALLY fallen by the wayside. Because they simply aren't good enough of an option compared to beams, and that's unfortunate.
I won't take away from this thread, but I might make a thread in the Builds section to maybe see if we can get the devs attention to maybe take a look at them. If they ever really do majorly muck around with beams, it'd be really good I think if single cannons were changed somehow to be worth considering. I do feel that there are ships with decent turn, but can't use DHCs which could make Single Cannons worth using, BUT the SCs themselves aren't worth using because beams are simply a superior option right now.
But like I said, I will make a different thread. I asked because I noticed some folks mentioning single cannons on the previous page.
I believe that was me, as I don't think comparing dual cannons, to single beam arrays, is an apt comparison, needs to be dual cannon to dual beam bank, and single cannon to single beam array.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I have a question to ask, mostly for those who've been around for a long time:
Were single cannons EVER at any point considered OP?
they are the best dilivery system for DEM and glider, and any other per shot proc. between functional versions of FAW, their effect was on par or slightly beter then beam arrays a few seasons ago, and a ton of creep ago
I suspect the all-cruiser-disco-ball team would go away if they were running a chance of hitting each other by relying on FAW-in-formation as their only tactic.
I'm pretty sure a weapons officer that took "Fire At Will" to mean "shoot at your teammates and the torpedoes you just fired" would immediately be court-martialed or executed for incompetence.
However, the Cruiser Disco Ball will do precisely this if you Gravwell and Scramble Sensors them.
One of the reasons people USE it is that you don't have to actually target anything-it's used as an AOE clearing mechanism.
Personally? I think maybe going the other way might provide some useful change-give the FAW guys all the procs, Aux2BAtt etc they want-but when they hit FAW, it engages ANY target within range-even friendlies.
Everything is a possible target-from the Probe to your buddy to the mines you just dropped-everything.
I suspect the all-cruiser-disco-ball team would go away if they were running a chance of hitting each other by relying on FAW-in-formation as their only tactic.
Meanwhile the Kirks who don't pack into tight formation to spider-tank and FAW the night away could still roll in to be the "Lone Hero" doing a disco-ball effect-it's just everyone would know to stand back while they're doing it.
Okay, but I'll respond, anyone using CSV should have the same effect. Anything in their firing arc, even friendlies, then, gets nailed as well. If FAW has a problem distinguishing friendlies, then CSV would as well, actually, as fast as the cannon gimbals would be rotating around, it would be even more of a problem for cannons, than beams, considering they're firing at everything in that arc, simultaneously. Not to mention if this game allowed for a "malfunction in system" type of thing, CSV would definately damn near blow apart a cannon type weapon from all that rapid movement.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
First off, overcapping was supposed to have a hard cap of 135. I'm not going through the archived posts, but it was stated during s3 that overcapping beyond 135 was a bug. They even fixed it. Then it broke again a while later (remember all the reversion bugs? the ones where they patched old code back in, and returned bugs that had already been fixed), people noticed and Geko proudly declared it WAD. I could be mistaken, but that's the way I remember it going down.
The larger arc of beams is supposed to be balanced by the enormous drain of firing 8 beams at once when broadsiding. Whereas cannons are balanced by their much smaller firing arcs (excepting turrets and single cannons which do significantly less damage). Beams do benefit more since it allows them to break their own balancing mechanics. You can't do anything to increase your arcs on DHC's. That's just the way I see it.
Agreed.
Fundamentally beams should not be allowed to very nearly negate their built in drawback for the ability to bring all 8 weapons to bear at once.
That's supposed to be an inherent penalty.
DHCs on the other hand are limited in arc, nothing can change this.
Turrets are worse than beams.
The fact that we are even having a conversation comparing beams vs. DHCs at all is the single clearest indication that something is horrendously wrong with this system.
DHCs should never be forced to compete with a weapon that has 5.5x the Arc and the ability to overlap. That's just power creep run wild.
I feel it's just plain silly to allow overcapping at 180+ to exist in conjunction with all the ways there are to negate weapons power drain, while simultaneously keeping all other subsystem power levels very high (remember when +power consoles were nerfed? The reason was stated that it was not intended for captains to maintain such high power levels, lol). Restore the hard cap of 135 and beams would be a lot closer to WAAD (Working As Actually Designed, rather than working as designed because Geko declared it to be so instead of doing something about it) than it is right now.
Agreed.
It's one thing to overcap to 135, and another to let beams and only beam arrays: not single cannons, not DCs, not DHCs, not DBBs, not Turrets - take advantage of massive overcapping beyond 150, and even upwards of 180+.
they are the best dilivery system for DEM and glider, and any other per shot proc. between functional versions of FAW, their effect was on par or slightly beter then beam arrays a few seasons ago, and a ton of creep ago
Oh yeah...I'd completely forgotten about that. I used to run the Omega set for Glider back in season 6 quite a bit on my Excelsior, I used it with Tetryon single cannons and turrets.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Not to be off topic... but are Single cannons the best DEM delivery system anymore ?
I could have sworn I remember Bort going out of his way to explain that proc rates are standardized and independent of firing rates. (even though it never worked that way before the newest devs got there mits on things). It was a conversation about weapon procs as I remember but would that not also effect dem. I know last time I checked it a beam setup was getting just as many dem stirkes as a turret setup.
Also even if that isn't true and there is a relation to firing cycles... the way beams overcap mean any dem hits are happening at 125 weapon power... and 50% or more of the cannon hits are happening in the 80 range... meaning even if the cannons hit 10-20% more the beams still do more DPS anyway. lol
DEM is a beam skill as I see it... running dem on cannons just doesn't work well.
Not to be off topic... but are Single cannons the best DEM delivery system anymore ?
I could have sworn I remember Bort going out of his way to explain that proc rates are standardized and independent of firing rates. (even though it never worked that way before the newest devs got there mits on things). It was a conversation about weapon procs as I remember but would that not also effect dem. I know last time I checked it a beam setup was getting just as many dem stirkes as a turret setup.
Also even if that isn't true and there is a relation to firing cycles... the way beams overcap mean any dem hits are happening at 125 weapon power... and 50% or more of the cannon hits are happening in the 80 range... meaning even if the cannons hit 10-20% more the beams still do more DPS anyway. lol
DEM is a beam skill as I see it... running dem on cannons just doesn't work well.
theres 2 types of procs, per shot and per cycle. cutting beam and borg console 2 part, valdor console, and elatchi weapons are per shot procs, and glider and DEM are per shot passives, basically. phaser proc or pol proc, that stuff is per cycle.
cannons do those per cycle procs better then beams, because they have cycles that last 3 seconds, so every weapon has a proc chance every 3 seconds. beam weapons take 5 seconds to complete a cycle, so in any given amount of time cannons are procing more then beams just due to their shorter cycle completion.
so, with 4 shots every 3 seconds, single cannons and DCs deliver per shot procs best. normal beam fire produces much less shots, and thus less per shot applications in a given amount of time. so individual shot rate of fire maters most for DEM and glider, and all the other per shot procs.
FAW cheats though, and trumps everything. its fireing 10 shots in 5 seconds, per beam weapon. that and the choosing of target each shot was also capable of generating a proc, but that bug was supposedly fixed, and led to all the crit and energy drain issues its had in the patches after.
Thanks for the update Dont I believe you have it right. I know its changed more then once and wasn't 100% sure how things where working anymore. Thanks for that. I guess at one time there where simply not that many procs to worry about. lol
Ya faw may have the proc rate fixed not sure... still the way dem works beams with overcapping will always do it better anyway. Less hits perhaps but all of them being at or close to full power will still mean more dps out of beam dem. (unless I'm missing something else which is possible anyway):)
It's just of those things where you change P so all of a sudden A, H, U and G are overpowered and X, Y, K are all underpowered or have suddenly become much harder to use.
Still, those static Borg targets aren't getting harder for me to hit
And why is the decrease of damage over distance greater with cannons as with beams?
With all the current speed buffs it is already hard to keep your DHC's on your target, and even more at close range...
Quit buffing your speed? If you cant keep weapons of choice on target thats your problem not the weapons. Hence why space whales use beams and broadside.
As an escort pilot you should be paying attention to your speed. If you are zipping about at full throttle, buffing speed like a madman and complaining you cant keep your weapons on target you are doing it wrong. Slow down smell the roses, you arent a high speed attack craft.
Slow down on your initial attack, speed out a distance turn and slow, then repeat. Cruisers can maintain a speed most times do to that crappy turn (though i currently have my Oddy Turning so fast it flies almost sideways afyer adding in inertia.
As for the Decrease in damage, ill bet that your little energy ball loses energy as it travels whilst a beam that is still recieving power do not.
Drawbacks versus Uses. Cannons do more damage up close while Beams do more at great distances.
TRIBBLE you can park at 4k and fire away with escorts these days, and most days before it, you just get shot and die some more...... oh wait thats another tradeoff isnt it?
Maybe ill pick up a Defiant or the Kumari 3 pack, and just pack that bad larry with refracting tet beams, Nukara stuff, and beam powers. That'll show you
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's just of those things where you change P so all of a sudden A, H, U and G are overpowered and X, Y, K are all underpowered or have suddenly become much harder to use.
Still, those static Borg targets aren't getting harder for me to hit
I now have a new insult i can say to people thank you
"You couldn't hit the broadside of a Borg!" :eek:
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Comments
You know, that's actually not a bad idea at all, I think. It would make it more interesting if you had to choose like that. Remember when BO3 was really borked (if it's not anymore) and it would miss like...75% of the time? Haha! But when it hit and crit, it was a whopper. So what if overcapping weapon power was kinda like that? The more you overcap, the lower your accuracy. It kinda makes sense. If you exceed the power limits in a weapon system, sure it has a chance to be completely devastating, but it could also backfire and either shutdown/weapons malfunction or have so much power running through it that it's completely impossible to control where that weapon is aimed.
Any thoughts?
Not to mention, anyone running dbb, has to still use cannons to gain much viability from there aft mounts, just like any cannon user does, but either has to use MORE skill slots, to boost those rear cannons (ie turrets), or not be able to boost them like a "only cannon" ship captain can.
On top of that, CRF affects whatever target you have selected, and scatter volley affects everything in your cone, pretty much equally, whereas FAW randomly picks out targets each shot, you have little control, if there are multiple targets.
So to me, FAW should stay with it's ability to overcap highly, AND get crits, as well as any procs. Cannons/dc/dhc should retain their current overcapping limit.
What I personally would like to see, is BEAM turrets, start coming into play, so a dbb ship doesn't have to sacrifice almost half his slots, into weapons he can't boost (or has to take away other skills from other areas), in order to boost their effectiveness. Because as I see it now, overall, cannon/dc/dhc users still have a distinct advantage, in both single & multiple target environments.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Well, since you want to go THAT route:
Oooh, like flying straight AT while hitting spacebar takes someone takes SO much effort.
Now, if you have nothing constructive to add, then STFU. I get sick of people trolling.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I don't think hes trolling hes stating a simple fact... lower arc weapons = more dmg by design... or they should... because guess what they have less time on target because... drum roll they are in fact harder to use. (as in takes more skill)
Yes comparing ALL energy weapons to one another is a good thing to do... one of the main balance issues going on 4 years now has been the issues with the differences in the weapon types.
No I am not just pointing at single beam arrays... right now though yes single beam arrays are overpowered when you consider there arc and range to hit factors. They have the best of both of those with out the a real down side as there dmg at the moment is consistantly high due to there odd firing cycle mechanics.
As I was saying a few up... its time to stop swinging the pendulam back and forth every season. Where cannons are the best energy wepaon for a few months and then beams and then back again.
Its time to make standard there range dmg curves... and there firing arcs. I would also say remove the idea of 2 weapon classes when it comes to energy weapon modification skills. Allow both of the wepaon types to use any energy dmg skill... and make the determining factor being arc and dmg numbers... higher arc weapons should = lower per hit dmg, while the wider arcs should allow for a more even dmg over time. DPS pretty much equaling out if both are piloted correctly. Lower Arcs providing higher burst and wider arcs providing consistant pressure dmg.
The fact that single beam arrays do more actual dmg then a single cannon is silly... they have more arc more range and due to interactions with firing cycle and overcap they are providing dps more in line with consistant on target DHC. Its broken plain and simple and needs to be addressed, in a way that doesn't swing the pendulam back to a point where DHC rule all for another 6 months.
Not for me it doesn't, lol. But then again, I play a lot of racing sims, and flight sims (as well as mech sims), that require "fancy" maneuvering, so maybe I'm just used to that. All it takes is "point the nose at your target".
Oh, and also, I've DONE it in this game. Particularly easy in anything that cloaks, escort types, and even some cruisers/battle cruisers. My Mirror Vo'Quv of course, is about the hardest, I wouldn't really plan on taking that thing up against a nimble adversary, that has the unpredictability, and intelligence, of a live person, without far far more practice in that thing.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Well that is sort of the issue... as long as they make them drasticly different one will ALWAYS depending on the meta at the time be the best option.
Thats why I would vote for a system where beams and cannons are almost no different at all... with the only real issues being the advantage of the extremely small arc DHC... and the advantage of the arc overlap builds (beam arrays) where full turret boat would have little advanatage over beam arrays.... which would be a good mix of more dmg due to reduced arc but still enough to bring 8 to bear.
This would mean that spike wise DHC and cannons would still be best option... with Dual beams not being very far behind. (DC could be given the same arc as DBB 90 degree) The choice between the 2 would be pure cosmetic... and I would be fine with that.
Lets give let the RP guys have a pure wet dream style game where they could mix and match beams and cannons.... DBB with Turrets... single cannons and beams. Who cares it would mostly be for looks.
There is precedence in older MMOs that have pretty much done the same thing... I know its not a direct comparison but for instance where it used to have advantage to swing a sword instead of a mace... so no one swung a mace... they have been equalized and people run both only on which ever look they prefer. It improved balance in those games. Honestly the PvP guys ended up happy to have more weapon/build options... and the RP guys where in heaven as they didn't have to gimp themselves because there "toon" would never swing X. lol
TRIBBLE turrets! remove them from the game! make single cannons aft mountable, and then re balance the damage and DPS of DCs and DHC, and even DBB by keeping in mind you cant get 7 or 8 of them on a target, only 3-5. to fix DCs, id just plain give them higher DPS then DHCs. they would still have less burst, thats the point of using DHCs
Elite Defense Stovokor
CSV and CRF have the advantage in hitting selected targets, mainly whats in front of you.
FAW you have to make sure you are away from things you dont want to hit.
BFAW should do the same max of 2 targets but it should only fire at the 2 CLOSEST targets. As it stand FAW just haphazardly sprays energy around. It needs to be a FOCUSABLE attack. That alone will help.
Give it whatever and whatnot, but make it FOCUSABLE.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
So you'd like to see FAW work more like CSV? Where have I heard that before? hmm....
Seriously, it's the best proposal I've heard for fixing FAW as a stand alone power. As for the over-capping, A2B and the imbalances it causes? Well, I think VirusDancer and Antonio's ideas for standardizing weapon output based on their arc and eliminating over-capping as a pseudo-balancing mechanism is a really good start.
I agree... this is why I say delete Faw as it exists... and adjust Scatter volley to work with beams... they can rename it faw if they think the name needs to be around.
Were single cannons EVER at any point considered OP?
I don't really think so. Maybe, if there was ever a time for it to be somewhat useful, was when STO released and Weapons Drain was a major consideration because it recovered so slowly. DHCs were not widespread because of the massive power drain from a single attack run.
I don't think so.
There was also way back like season 1-2 time frame a way to use 1 single cannon in a grouping with DHC to increase overall dps.
Since then they have played with procs and weapon cycles a little bit here and there and I honestly think they broke a few things never noticed as well... and at this point the current devs just assume some stuff is working as intended although it likely wasn't what was intended at all.
Well, might be worth looking into a bit more then. Mostly because I think that not only has a lot of power creep and mechanic-y stuff let BAs take front-stage, Single Cannons (psst, I still want single heavy cannons Cryptic, I'd pay Zen for that unlock) have really REALLY fallen by the wayside. Because they simply aren't good enough of an option compared to beams, and that's unfortunate.
I won't take away from this thread, but I might make a thread in the Builds section to maybe see if we can get the devs attention to maybe take a look at them. If they ever really do majorly muck around with beams, it'd be really good I think if single cannons were changed somehow to be worth considering. I do feel that there are ships with decent turn, but can't use DHCs which could make Single Cannons worth using, BUT the SCs themselves aren't worth using because beams are simply a superior option right now.
But like I said, I will make a different thread. I asked because I noticed some folks mentioning single cannons on the previous page.
I believe that was me, as I don't think comparing dual cannons, to single beam arrays, is an apt comparison, needs to be dual cannon to dual beam bank, and single cannon to single beam array.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
they are the best dilivery system for DEM and glider, and any other per shot proc. between functional versions of FAW, their effect was on par or slightly beter then beam arrays a few seasons ago, and a ton of creep ago
However, the Cruiser Disco Ball will do precisely this if you Gravwell and Scramble Sensors them.
Okay, but I'll respond, anyone using CSV should have the same effect. Anything in their firing arc, even friendlies, then, gets nailed as well. If FAW has a problem distinguishing friendlies, then CSV would as well, actually, as fast as the cannon gimbals would be rotating around, it would be even more of a problem for cannons, than beams, considering they're firing at everything in that arc, simultaneously. Not to mention if this game allowed for a "malfunction in system" type of thing, CSV would definately damn near blow apart a cannon type weapon from all that rapid movement.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
You're not mistaken.
Agreed.
Fundamentally beams should not be allowed to very nearly negate their built in drawback for the ability to bring all 8 weapons to bear at once.
That's supposed to be an inherent penalty.
DHCs on the other hand are limited in arc, nothing can change this.
Turrets are worse than beams.
The fact that we are even having a conversation comparing beams vs. DHCs at all is the single clearest indication that something is horrendously wrong with this system.
DHCs should never be forced to compete with a weapon that has 5.5x the Arc and the ability to overlap. That's just power creep run wild.
Agreed.
It's one thing to overcap to 135, and another to let beams and only beam arrays: not single cannons, not DCs, not DHCs, not DBBs, not Turrets - take advantage of massive overcapping beyond 150, and even upwards of 180+.
Oh yeah...I'd completely forgotten about that. I used to run the Omega set for Glider back in season 6 quite a bit on my Excelsior, I used it with Tetryon single cannons and turrets.
I could have sworn I remember Bort going out of his way to explain that proc rates are standardized and independent of firing rates. (even though it never worked that way before the newest devs got there mits on things). It was a conversation about weapon procs as I remember but would that not also effect dem. I know last time I checked it a beam setup was getting just as many dem stirkes as a turret setup.
Also even if that isn't true and there is a relation to firing cycles... the way beams overcap mean any dem hits are happening at 125 weapon power... and 50% or more of the cannon hits are happening in the 80 range... meaning even if the cannons hit 10-20% more the beams still do more DPS anyway. lol
DEM is a beam skill as I see it... running dem on cannons just doesn't work well.
theres 2 types of procs, per shot and per cycle. cutting beam and borg console 2 part, valdor console, and elatchi weapons are per shot procs, and glider and DEM are per shot passives, basically. phaser proc or pol proc, that stuff is per cycle.
cannons do those per cycle procs better then beams, because they have cycles that last 3 seconds, so every weapon has a proc chance every 3 seconds. beam weapons take 5 seconds to complete a cycle, so in any given amount of time cannons are procing more then beams just due to their shorter cycle completion.
so, with 4 shots every 3 seconds, single cannons and DCs deliver per shot procs best. normal beam fire produces much less shots, and thus less per shot applications in a given amount of time. so individual shot rate of fire maters most for DEM and glider, and all the other per shot procs.
FAW cheats though, and trumps everything. its fireing 10 shots in 5 seconds, per beam weapon. that and the choosing of target each shot was also capable of generating a proc, but that bug was supposedly fixed, and led to all the crit and energy drain issues its had in the patches after.
Ya faw may have the proc rate fixed not sure... still the way dem works beams with overcapping will always do it better anyway. Less hits perhaps but all of them being at or close to full power will still mean more dps out of beam dem. (unless I'm missing something else which is possible anyway):)
With all the current speed buffs it is already hard to keep your DHC's on your target, and even more at close range...
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
Still, those static Borg targets aren't getting harder for me to hit
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Quit buffing your speed? If you cant keep weapons of choice on target thats your problem not the weapons. Hence why space whales use beams and broadside.
As an escort pilot you should be paying attention to your speed. If you are zipping about at full throttle, buffing speed like a madman and complaining you cant keep your weapons on target you are doing it wrong. Slow down smell the roses, you arent a high speed attack craft.
Slow down on your initial attack, speed out a distance turn and slow, then repeat. Cruisers can maintain a speed most times do to that crappy turn (though i currently have my Oddy Turning so fast it flies almost sideways afyer adding in inertia.
As for the Decrease in damage, ill bet that your little energy ball loses energy as it travels whilst a beam that is still recieving power do not.
Drawbacks versus Uses. Cannons do more damage up close while Beams do more at great distances.
TRIBBLE you can park at 4k and fire away with escorts these days, and most days before it, you just get shot and die some more...... oh wait thats another tradeoff isnt it?
Maybe ill pick up a Defiant or the Kumari 3 pack, and just pack that bad larry with refracting tet beams, Nukara stuff, and beam powers. That'll show you
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I now have a new insult i can say to people thank you
"You couldn't hit the broadside of a Borg!" :eek:
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]