I trust RyanSTO, in that he obviously knows what he's talking about, and has the DPS to back up his claims. The reasons mentioned by him, for not using the Hilbert Guide are pretty darn solid. And I have yet to see anyone refute anything he says about how keypresses/lockouts, etc. work.
It's not personal for me (and I don't think it's for Ryan either). I've gratefully used the Hilbert Guide myself, at one time, and it was an eye-opener for me. After that, though, people like RyanSTO came, showing a true understanding of the minutia of keybinding and global lockouts, and why Hilbert-style 'spacebar smashing' kills your DPS.
Maybe non of this matters in a PvP 'vaper' world; but yes, I was surprised to see the Hilbert Guide recommended in a PvP forum, of all places.
Yeah, he's right about the keybind/lockout timers in a pve scenario, I don't use anything on spacebar on my pve ship. However, in a PvP match, where the enemy is skilled, adaptive and relentless, you will need to redistribute continuously as with a facing down, you're more than dead.
Oh, and THG is recommended in the PVP forums because it was born as a "cookie cutter guide to PvP" by a PvPer.
Hmm, I distinctly recall RyanSTO saying, on multiple occassions, not to use the Hilbert guide. He makes a compelling case.
that's cool, but this is the PvP forum and Ryan is talking about PvE. There are a few things about the Hilbert Guide that is a little out dated but for PvP one needs a great deal more surviveability than PvE which greatly affects builds. Therefore, I think your comment is very ignorant and is bordering on trolling. Ryan wouldn't come down here and say what you did because he understands that.
I trust RyanSTO, in that he obviously knows what he's talking about, and has the DPS to back up his claims. The reasons mentioned by him, for not using the Hilbert Guide are pretty darn solid. And I have yet to see anyone refute anything he says about how keypresses/lockouts, etc. work.
One has to distinguish between two things:
1) There is the theory that spacebar mashing that triggers weapons and distributes shields already reduces DPS. This was the topic of the conversation mentioned in the video and so far I have seen no proof of such an effect (in fact the data suggests that spacebar mashing might even be a (very small) improvement over pure autofire) and have not been able to reproduce it. This is also what the 2k dps screenshot showed that Ryan is referring to in the video. The absolute DPS level is so low because I obviously used weapons of low mark, no weapon consoles and other things to reduce my DPS level in order not to blow up my test target prematurely, so that I could see the effect of spacebar mashing versus not doing so.
2) The second issue is missing optimal ability activations due to spacebar mashing not always perfectly triggering the ability as soon as it becomes available. I have not tested this in a clean room situation with a combat logger, but I believe it to be true that manual ability activation is an improvement over pure spacebar keybinding. So if someone wants to go for really high PVE DPS, one should at the very least remove the distribute shields from the spacebar bind, and possibly also trigger abilities in a more controlled fashion - which then makes spacebar mashing pointless as long as one is using autofire.
Now why don't I recommend manual ability activations to beginners? That's simple. Because this kind of optimisation is entirely unnecessary for new players. I believe that the benefits of the big spacebar bind far outweigh the drawbacks when it comes to beginning players (or noobish ones like myself). Once you start thinking about getting into the higher DPS ...k channels, you are no longer a beginner and should make your own optimisations. The THG was never meant to be a guide for high end PVE DPS builds. As it says right at the beginning: "The intention of this guide is to give you the information you need to stop being a liability for your side in a PVP match." - And to this end it is much more important to have a simple spacebar bind that keeps the shields redistributing and the EPtS going than it is to squeeze a bit more DPS out of the setup.
1) There is the theory that spacebar mashing that triggers weapons and distributes shields already reduces DPS. This was the topic of the conversation mentioned in the video and so far I have seen no proof of such an effect (in fact the data suggests that spacebar mashing might even be a (very small) improvement over pure autofire) and have not been able to reproduce it. This is also what the 2k dps screenshot showed that Ryan is referring to in the video. The absolute DPS level is so low because I obviously used weapons of low mark, no weapon consoles and other things to reduce my DPS level in order not to blow up my test target prematurely, so that I could see the effect of spacebar mashing versus not doing so.
2) The second issue is missing optimal ability activations due to spacebar mashing not always perfectly triggering the ability as soon as it becomes available. I have not tested this in a clean room situation with a combat logger, but I believe it to be true that manual ability activation is an improvement over pure spacebar keybinding. So if someone wants to go for really high PVE DPS, one should at the very least remove the distribute shields from the spacebar bind, and possibly also trigger abilities in a more controlled fashion - which then makes spacebar mashing pointless as long as one is using autofire.
Now why don't I recommend manual ability activations to beginners? That's simple. Because this kind of optimisation is entirely unnecessary for new players. I believe that the benefits of the big spacebar bind far outweigh the drawbacks when it comes to beginning players (or noobish ones like myself). Once you start thinking about getting into the higher DPS ...k channels, you are no longer a beginner and should make your own optimisations. The THG was never meant to be a guide for high end PVE DPS builds. As it says right at the beginning: "The intention of this guide is to give you the information you need to stop being a liability for your side in a PVP match." - And to this end it is much more important to have a simple spacebar bind that keeps the shields redistributing and the EPtS going than it is to squeeze a bit more DPS out of the setup.
I appreciate your reply and explanations: gives me a better insight as to why you may want it in PvP.
And, btw, a belated thank you for your guide, which was something that started me off on keybinding in the first place.
I trust RyanSTO, in that he obviously knows what he's talking about, and has the DPS to back up his claims. The reasons mentioned by him, for not using the Hilbert Guide are pretty darn solid. And I have yet to see anyone refute anything he says about how keypresses/lockouts, etc. work.
It's not personal for me (and I don't think it's for Ryan either). I've gratefully used the Hilbert Guide myself, at one time, and it was an eye-opener for me. After that, though, people like RyanSTO came, showing a true understanding of the minutia of keybinding and global lockouts, and why Hilbert-style 'spacebar smashing' kills your DPS.
Maybe non of this matters in a PvP 'vaper' world; but yes, I was surprised to see the Hilbert Guide recommended in a PvP forum, of all places.
ROFL.
First of all, Hilbertsguide is not about guide but more about PvP/leaderboards, guide is pure newb intro to game mechanics. Any PvPer will see single row bind limitations after just few games. Average DPS channel PvEr might never see that, even after infinite number of games.
Second of all, you lot DPS newcomers act like few people there like Ryan&co know their sht about this game mechanics and follow every advice from them like a sacred text, which all by itself is way less offense then what you are doing: attacking PvPers, who truly mastered this game versus devs, braindead NPCs and most importantly: other players.
Even that is not nearly as offensive as when someone like you who can't make their own mind and build and relies to other peoples advice on gameplay, attacking people that actually know what they are talking about.
I have nothing personal against Ryan, Porch and co, with/VS whom I have played countless NWS, PvE and PvP and who are still, despite that recent DPS-only nonsense, way better players then you.
This is just to make a point.
BTW notice how DPSers at the end of the match have 10x LESS damage then we and 0 kills.
Soo....
And cherry on top is: i have used there spacebar row keybind with just 2 alternative power distro+skill rows(defense/counter +defense/GDF) and of course things that you cannot afford to bind.
I trust RyanSTO, in that he obviously knows what he's talking about, and has the DPS to back up his claims. The reasons mentioned by him, for not using the Hilbert Guide are pretty darn solid. And I have yet to see anyone refute anything he says about how keypresses/lockouts, etc. work.
In some ways, Ryan is correct. The Hilbert Guide isn't good for someone who knows much more about the game. But it isn't meant to be. It's meant to be a starting point, a 101 class, a first foot in the water, that kind of thing. Once you've gotten going, in PvP or high DPS, you can develop further into other ways.
Besides, would you rather have players, in PvE or PvP who've at least read the Hilbert Guide and apply it, over the ignorant masses you constantly see failing and dying in the queues? I would. Even if it isn't the best thing in the long term, it provides a foundation, something to go on, instead of simply leaving people to try and figure out the complex mess that STO is sometimes.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Second of all, you lot DPS newcomers act like few people there like Ryan&co know their sht about this game mechanics and follow every advice from them like a sacred text, which all by itself is way less offense then what you are doing: attacking PvPers, who truly mastered this game versus devs, braindead NPCs and most importantly: other players.
Me, attacking PvP-ers?! LOL. All because I had the audacity to say "Hmm, I distinctly recall RyanSTO saying, on multiple occassions, not to use the Hilbert guide. He makes a compelling case."?! Hoping to get maybe some simple, short explanation (if there was to be any) as to why PvP-ers are using the Hilbert guide, after all. Such polite and helpful reply, go figure, *was* actually given, by Hilbert himself, no less.
Even that is not nearly as offensive as when someone like you who can't make their own mind and build and relies to other peoples advice on gameplay, attacking people that actually know what they are talking about.
You mean, you never seek/sought advice?! What is that, a grandstanding PvP thingy or something, where you need to pretend you already know everything? Yeah, proud to say I'm not like you. Me, I like to learn. Either by watching RyanSTO's vids, figuring stuff out for myself and/or by seeking advice from people more knowledgable than me (usually from ppl who have already done extensive testing on this or that). The latter, of course, requires acknowledging the existence of people in this world who know more than I do. Unlike you, that is not an ego-crushing realization to me (up to the point where I feel I need to go post and pretend I never seek advice, LOL).
I have nothing personal against Ryan, Porch and co, with/VS whom I have played countless NWS, PvE and PvP and who are still, despite that recent DPS-only nonsense, way better players then you.
Dude, what's with the constant smack talk?! Why is it that every other line here is a spiteful ad hominem of sorts?! Is that a requirement for this forum section or something?! You silly man! Of course RyanSTO is a better player than me! That's why I brought him up! :P You guys are hilarious!
BTW notice how DPSers at the end of the match have 10x LESS damage then we and 0 kills.
Soo....
Soo... this proves what exactly?! That his minute understanding of keybindings/lockout mechanism is flawed?! That you should use the Hilbert Guide? Or that you're the better PvP-er?! Assuming you meant the latter, I doubt RyanSTO ever claimed anything to the contrary, and I know *I* certainly didn't.
In some ways, Ryan is correct. The Hilbert Guide isn't good for someone who knows much more about the game. But it isn't meant to be. It's meant to be a starting point, a 101 class, a first foot in the water, that kind of thing. Once you've gotten going, in PvP or high DPS, you can develop further into other ways.
Besides, would you rather have players, in PvE or PvP who've at least read the Hilbert Guide and apply it, over the ignorant masses you constantly see failing and dying in the queues? I would. Even if it isn't the best thing in the long term, it provides a foundation, something to go on, instead of simply leaving people to try and figure out the complex mess that STO is sometimes.
All you say is true.
I was just a little surprised, is all, when I saw Hilbert Guide mentioned here, as it's usually the PvP-ers who can be found in General Discussion, fond of endlessly ridiculing those stupid 'spacebar smashers'. So, I scratched my head a bit on that one. The way Hilbert (and, to some extent, others, you like, explained it to me, in terms of quick-and-dirty survivability), it now makes kinda sense to me.
Audacity? I'd say stupidity. Cause only someone very stupid could talk PvE in a thread about PvP, about a leaderboard made for PvP, in PvP sub forum.
Not even Q would be able to fix such brain failure. If anything you should be licking PvPers feet for having Ionic and other broken Intel stuff fixed in the first place. Imagine chained unresistable stuns from IT spammed by iconians that could track you, while SS wipes your poor ship. That would have been some major crying worth watching.
Sharx's video clearly shows how PvPers always have the upper hand on PvErs when it comes to space fighting. What's your problem? Do PvErs search the web for "STO PVP" when they feel an inferiority complex and write senseless post in here?
cit. DDIS.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
Audacity? I'd say stupidity. Cause only someone very stupid could talk PvE in a thread about PvP, about a leaderboard made for PvP, in PvP sub forum.
Leaderboards made for PvP?! Who on earth was talking about that!?! LOL.
Sharx's video clearly shows how PvPers always have the upper hand on PvErs when it comes to space fighting.
Again with the ego-sizing, LOL. Must really be a hard-wired PvP-thingy, that everything always comes down to who is the better PvP-er. Honestly, I find this very amusing. "He's a better player than you!", "PvPers always have the upper hand on PvErs when it comes to space fighting!" Who cares?! As if PvE-ers ever contested the fact. I would die within 1 second in PvP: I never pretended otherwise, and I don't feel at all upset about that. Yawn. I don't possess the PvP 'rooster' gene, I guess. :P
Leaderboards made for PvP?! Who on earth was talking about that!?! LOL.
Again with the ego-sizing, LOL. Must really be a hard-wired PvP-thingy, that everything always comes down to who is the better PvP-er. Honestly, I find this very amusing. "He's a better player than you!", "PvPers always have the upper hand on PvErs when it comes to space fighting!" Who cares?! As if PvE-ers ever contested the fact. I would die within 1 second in PvP: I never pretended otherwise, and I don't feel at all upset about that. Yawn. I don't possess the PvP 'rooster' gene, I guess. :P
Hilbert leaderboard was made for PvP. It analyses the combatlog from PvP matches and uploads it through a client.
Dude you're just so much of a fail. Reading comprehension test failed.
Looks like meimeitoo is still angry PvPers got ionic turbulence and surgical strikes nerfed. :cool:
And this is her way to get back to us . Hilarity. Anyways, sorry Cryptic has beaten you to it.
He failed the reading comprehension test, don't be too harsh. He has a lower IQ than my garbage can.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
Looks like meimeitoo is still angry PvPers got ionic turbulence and surgical strikes nerfed. :cool:
And this is her way to get back to us . Hilarity. Anyways, sorry Cryptic has beaten you to it.
Why, y'all *did* get SS3 and IT nerfed. Good thing we got KCLW back for it. But, as others have mentioned, there's also the thing going on where Cryptic makes things 'too good to be true' on purpose, and then essentially hides behind PvP-ers' complaints, as an excuse to nerf it a few months down the road. So, there's plenty of blame to go around. Maybe I should add "+DistributeBlame" to my keykinds!?
Why, y'all *did* get SS3 and IT nerfed. Good thing we got KCLW back for it. But, as others have mentioned, there's also the thing going on where Cryptic makes things 'too good to be true' on purpose, and then essentially hides behind PvP-ers' complaints, as an excuse to nerf it a few months down the road. So, there's plenty of blame to go around. Maybe I should add "+DistributeBlame" to my keykinds!?
Reading comprehension test failed.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
He failed the reading comprehension test, don't be too harsh. He has a lower IQ than my garbage can.
ROFL. Do you people ever look at yourselves?! Me, I rarely come here (for obvious reasons, methinks). But I gotta say, honestly, I find this constant smack talk hi-frakkin'-larious! What, was I supposed to feel insulted now or something?! All I see is toddlers in a sandbox, trying to outdo each other on meanie-talk, signifying nothing. If only you could pull back a bit, and watch it from the outside-in, I'm sure you'd find it funny too. :P
Hilbert leaderboard was made for PvP. It analyses the combatlog from PvP matches and uploads it through a client.
Um... although there were some players using this thread (instead of the "PVP Leaderboards" one) for asking about leaderboard access, this is the "The Hilbert Guide" thread which is about the cookie cutter guide to PVP (and not about the leaderboard which is hosted at the same website as the guide).
The spacebar bind is probably the big legacy of the guide part of the THG now that the game has changed so much that the builds are all kind of outdated and can only serve as inspiration for players' own creations since it appears to be pretty much impossible to give a level 60 build suggestion that adheres to the THG's basic idea of "easily obtainable and essentially free ships/equipment".
Dude, what's with the constant smack talk?! Why is it that every other line here is a spiteful ad hominem of sorts?! Is that a requirement for this forum section or something?! You silly man! Of course RyanSTO is a better player than me! That's why I brought him up! :P You guys are hilarious!
lol, you call this "smack talk"?
Let me explain this to you. You are a cheer leader. You bring up other peoples names to prove the point.
Since you know jack about what you're talking about you call upon someone else.
Soo... this proves what exactly?! That his minute understanding of keybindings/lockout mechanism is flawed?! That you should use the Hilbert Guide? Or that you're the better PvP-er?! Assuming you meant the latter, I doubt RyanSTO ever claimed anything to the contrary, and I know *I* certainly didn't.
This proves all of the above + it proves that PvE rots your mind if you didn't see(read) that HilbertsGuide is made by PvPer for PvPers(not only) and that it has only PvP leaderboard in game.
* it proves how little you know about DPS people like Ryan, Porch and others. They have extensively played PvP before DR, bragged how they pawned these and those PUGs with FAW boats. hell I joined them myself few times in such games and on TS. And we met on opposite sides as well. Not to mention PvE.
Basically, you mistook this subforum for general section where your average Starfleet Joe will bow down to your private DPS gods and go ahead and buy latest OP BS from exchange just to reach 10k.
And yes, if you can't make your own build and you must rely on other people stuff to make a functional FAW DPS failboat your arguments here have 0 value.
ROFL. Do you people ever look at yourselves?! Me, I rarely come here (for obvious reasons, methinks). But I gotta say, honestly, I find this constant smack talk hi-frakkin'-larious! What, was I supposed to feel insulted now or something?! All I see is toddlers in a sandbox, trying to outdo each other on meanie-talk, signifying nothing. If only you could pull back a bit, and watch it from the outside-in, I'm sure you'd find it funny too. :P
I don't see how someone with that IQ can even get offended. Anyways, first you gotta pass the reading comprehension test.
lol, you call this "smack talk"?
Let me explain this to you. You are a cheer leader. You bring up other peoples names to prove the point.
Since you know jack about what you're talking about you call upon someone else.
This proves all of the above + it proves that PvE rots your mind if you didn't see(read) that HilbertsGuide is made by PvPer for PvPers(not only) and that it has only PvP leaderboard in game.
* it proves how little you know about DPS people like Ryan, Porch and others. They have extensively played PvP before DR, bragged how they pawned these and those PUGs with FAW boats. hell I joined them myself few times in such games and on TS. And we met on opposite sides as well. Not to mention PvE.
Basically, you mistook this subforum for general section where your average Starfleet Joe will bow down to your private DPS gods and go ahead and buy latest OP BS from exchange just to reach 10k.
And yes, if you can't make your own build and you must rely on other people stuff to make a functional FAW DPS failboat your arguments here have 0 value.
Quoted for truth. When someone brags on how cool they are on using a build that's not even theirs is epic. Calling in someone else to defend your statements, that's what I meant with IQ lower than my garbage can. Come on, bring ryan down here. If you can of course.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
1st.: this is the hilbert-GUIDE-thread, not the leaderboard one.
2nd.: meimei, jedis not talked about posts of yours in here now, but in recent threads and on several occasions where u voiced against "the pvpers who are out to get nerfed <whatever>".
so i assume one can be amused by the fact u did refer on dps-league, while it can be compared to pvp (as it used to be; several well known fleets, occassional tourneys, q's full of premades) in many ways. just not the specialization itself.
btw: there are many pvp-vids out there that also give very good insights on certain gamestyles/mechanics. thissler is just one out of many examples, jedis himself just as well...
on a last sidenote: several powers bound to one key might give an advantage or not. i can't tell myself as i never used anything but my tray, mouse and keyboard. lots of clicking, most flexibility. as many said the guide can be a start to pvp, but isn't the answer.
in conclusion i please u guys to stop it now in here. it's the hilbert-guide thread dammit, not one of the other dirt-pits.... thx in advance.
I don't see how someone with that IQ can even get offended. Anyways, first you gotta pass the reading comprehension test.
Oh, you mean the reading comprehension test you just failed for not understanding this isn't the "PVP Leaderboards" thread?! Hahaha! The universe may well collapse under so much irony!
in conclusion i please u guys to stop it now in here. it's the hilbert-guide thread dammit, not one of the other dirt-pits.... thx in advance.
Actually, I think I'm gonna follow that suggestion. This all gets sillier by the minute anyway.
In conclusion: I'm grateful the Hilbert Guide existed, and served me well, at one point, to get the keybind basics, along with friendly 'cookie-cutter' builds to boot. And I'm equally grateful ppl like RyanSTO picked up the ball since, and turned keybinding into an art-form.
Oh, you mean the reading comprehension test you just failed for not understanding this isn't the "PVP Leaderboards" thread?! Hahaha! The universe may well collapse under so much irony!
Recalls the thread title right when he had shifted the discussion on Hilbert's PvP leaderboard. Failed worse than reading comprehension. Think you ego was crippled enough for today, so I'm giving back the thread to H.
Still, make sure you beat those NPCs hard. I'm sure they are epic fun and hard to blow up.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
Let me explain this to you. You are a cheer leader. You bring up other peoples names to prove the point.
Since you know jack about what you're talking about you call upon someone else.
That's a funny, be it rather warped. way of saying I respect certain people's opinion, yes.
And yes, if you can't make your own build and you must rely on other people stuff to make a functional FAW DPS failboat your arguments here have 0 value.
Where do you get this stange notion that I don't make my own builds?! Or did you just pull that strawman out of your TRIBBLE because, yes, why exactly?!
Also, have you not been informed yet?! Builds mean very little. It's all about the piloting. If only it were so easy as copying RyanSTO's builds! Or those of sarcasmdetector. Sadly, it doesn't work that way.
P.S. And FYI, you're listed in the DPS-League for 43k. Me, for 48k. Hahaha! That was funny! Now who knows jack!? All this mean-spirited grandstanding towards me; and, at the end of the day, you can't even best me in PvE.
I was just a little surprised, is all, when I saw Hilbert Guide mentioned here, as it's usually the PvP-ers who can be found in General Discussion, fond of endlessly ridiculing those stupid 'spacebar smashers'. So, I scratched my head a bit on that one. The way Hilbert (and, to some extent, others, you like, explained it to me, in terms of quick-and-dirty survivability), it now makes kinda sense to me.
Well, the Hilbert Guide has been a PvP-staple for ages. In particular the spacebar bind. Hell, it was required reading for ALL people who went into PvP Bootcamp while that was going on. So, I can kind of understand people might be...miffed, if someone comes into this area of the forum and starts to dismiss it, that would get under their skin a bit.
But I admit, I must agree with Hilbert, it's difficult to justify using some of the ship guides since those were always meant to be a way of getting a decent set-up with cheap and/or free gear and ships. With how the game, especially since DR, it's ten times harder to try and figure that out.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Well, the Hilbert Guide has been a PvP-staple for ages. In particular the spacebar bind. Hell, it was required reading for ALL people who went into PvP Bootcamp while that was going on. So, I can kind of understand people might be...miffed, if someone comes into this area of the forum and starts to dismiss it, that would get under their skin a bit.
But I admit, I must agree with Hilbert, it's difficult to justify using some of the ship guides since those were always meant to be a way of getting a decent set-up with cheap and/or free gear and ships. With how the game, especially since DR, it's ten times harder to try and figure that out.
I can understand what you're saying; especially, since I've made ample use of the Hilbert Guide myself. When I started on STO, it was widely used in PvE too, though; and pretty much a mandatory read there as well. So, while it technically said PvP, even back in the day, it soon became a PvE thing too (with all unintended, perhaps, yet detrimental 'spacebar smashing' as a result, later on).
No offense was meant towards Hilbert; I've thanked him for his guide (here, and before); and it will always have been an important part of my STO experience. Just didn't understand why PvP-ers would use it (out of bootcamp, that is); but I think it's been sufficiently clear now, to me, why things in PvP work differently that way.
I can understand what you're saying; especially, since I've made ample use of the Hilbert Guide myself. When I started on STO, it was widely used in PvE too, though; and pretty much a mandatory read there as well. So, while it technically said PvP, even back in the day, it soon became a PvE thing too (with all unintended, perhaps, yet detrimental 'spacebar smashing' as a result, later on).
No offense was meant towards Hilbert; I've thanked him for his guide (here, and before); and it will always have been an important part of my STO experience. Just didn't understand why PvP-ers would use it (out of bootcamp, that is); but I think it's been sufficiently clear now, to me, why things in PvP work differently that way.
In interest of not derailing the thread again I'll ignore your last post directed to me and answer this one.
If you started this way I and others wouldn't have responded in such manner.
Red Part:
Thing is, PvP and PvE have same mechanics, work under same set of laws.
Prior to Delta Rising all now known PvErs played PvP as well, and vice versa.
This level of DPS craze and strong PvE/PvP separation only started when Cryptic made borg in ISA ginormous hit-bags.
Sooner you realize that playing versus a good player is way harder and requires more piloting skill, better timing and better knowledge of game mechanics, sooner you'll stop spreading animosity towards PvPers on forums.
Why doesn't PvE rely on builds now? Well, it's because you all fly FAWboats.
Further more, PvE in STO is completely predictable. You can memorize everything in ISA and make a team to reach DPS nirvana if you want.
There is no science or wizardry involved. We are talking about NPCs without any buffs or debuffs.
PvP requires much more then that.
And BTW my 43k comes from a single ISA i did after EAP fix and i used only 3DHCs+1 torp . I stopped playing STO soon after.
If i ever was for DPS craze i would own more then one beam in my inventory and gold weapons.
Only thing that is sad is that all that's left from STO now is DPS as a way of milking players.
Comments
Yeah, he's right about the keybind/lockout timers in a pve scenario, I don't use anything on spacebar on my pve ship. However, in a PvP match, where the enemy is skilled, adaptive and relentless, you will need to redistribute continuously as with a facing down, you're more than dead.
Oh, and THG is recommended in the PVP forums because it was born as a "cookie cutter guide to PvP" by a PvPer.
that's cool, but this is the PvP forum and Ryan is talking about PvE. There are a few things about the Hilbert Guide that is a little out dated but for PvP one needs a great deal more surviveability than PvE which greatly affects builds. Therefore, I think your comment is very ignorant and is bordering on trolling. Ryan wouldn't come down here and say what you did because he understands that.
1) There is the theory that spacebar mashing that triggers weapons and distributes shields already reduces DPS. This was the topic of the conversation mentioned in the video and so far I have seen no proof of such an effect (in fact the data suggests that spacebar mashing might even be a (very small) improvement over pure autofire) and have not been able to reproduce it. This is also what the 2k dps screenshot showed that Ryan is referring to in the video. The absolute DPS level is so low because I obviously used weapons of low mark, no weapon consoles and other things to reduce my DPS level in order not to blow up my test target prematurely, so that I could see the effect of spacebar mashing versus not doing so.
The screenshot in question is the following: The left side shows DPS with spacebar (and autofire), whereas the right side shows DPS without spacebar, only autofire.
2) The second issue is missing optimal ability activations due to spacebar mashing not always perfectly triggering the ability as soon as it becomes available. I have not tested this in a clean room situation with a combat logger, but I believe it to be true that manual ability activation is an improvement over pure spacebar keybinding. So if someone wants to go for really high PVE DPS, one should at the very least remove the distribute shields from the spacebar bind, and possibly also trigger abilities in a more controlled fashion - which then makes spacebar mashing pointless as long as one is using autofire.
Now why don't I recommend manual ability activations to beginners? That's simple. Because this kind of optimisation is entirely unnecessary for new players. I believe that the benefits of the big spacebar bind far outweigh the drawbacks when it comes to beginning players (or noobish ones like myself). Once you start thinking about getting into the higher DPS ...k channels, you are no longer a beginner and should make your own optimisations. The THG was never meant to be a guide for high end PVE DPS builds. As it says right at the beginning: "The intention of this guide is to give you the information you need to stop being a liability for your side in a PVP match." - And to this end it is much more important to have a simple spacebar bind that keeps the shields redistributing and the EPtS going than it is to squeeze a bit more DPS out of the setup.
I appreciate your reply and explanations: gives me a better insight as to why you may want it in PvP.
And, btw, a belated thank you for your guide, which was something that started me off on keybinding in the first place.
ROFL.
First of all, Hilbertsguide is not about guide but more about PvP/leaderboards, guide is pure newb intro to game mechanics. Any PvPer will see single row bind limitations after just few games. Average DPS channel PvEr might never see that, even after infinite number of games.
Second of all, you lot DPS newcomers act like few people there like Ryan&co know their sht about this game mechanics and follow every advice from them like a sacred text, which all by itself is way less offense then what you are doing: attacking PvPers, who truly mastered this game versus devs, braindead NPCs and most importantly: other players.
Even that is not nearly as offensive as when someone like you who can't make their own mind and build and relies to other peoples advice on gameplay, attacking people that actually know what they are talking about.
I have nothing personal against Ryan, Porch and co, with/VS whom I have played countless NWS, PvE and PvP and who are still, despite that recent DPS-only nonsense, way better players then you.
This is just to make a point.
Here watch Ryan, Porch and their DPSmade team getting wrecked 15:0 by me and Ad Infinitum.
https://youtu.be/_oRpk2MVikw?t=5m15s
BTW notice how DPSers at the end of the match have 10x LESS damage then we and 0 kills.
Soo....
And cherry on top is: i have used there spacebar row keybind with just 2 alternative power distro+skill rows(defense/counter +defense/GDF) and of course things that you cannot afford to bind.
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In some ways, Ryan is correct. The Hilbert Guide isn't good for someone who knows much more about the game. But it isn't meant to be. It's meant to be a starting point, a 101 class, a first foot in the water, that kind of thing. Once you've gotten going, in PvP or high DPS, you can develop further into other ways.
Besides, would you rather have players, in PvE or PvP who've at least read the Hilbert Guide and apply it, over the ignorant masses you constantly see failing and dying in the queues? I would. Even if it isn't the best thing in the long term, it provides a foundation, something to go on, instead of simply leaving people to try and figure out the complex mess that STO is sometimes.
Me, attacking PvP-ers?! LOL. All because I had the audacity to say "Hmm, I distinctly recall RyanSTO saying, on multiple occassions, not to use the Hilbert guide. He makes a compelling case."?! Hoping to get maybe some simple, short explanation (if there was to be any) as to why PvP-ers are using the Hilbert guide, after all. Such polite and helpful reply, go figure, *was* actually given, by Hilbert himself, no less.
You mean, you never seek/sought advice?! What is that, a grandstanding PvP thingy or something, where you need to pretend you already know everything? Yeah, proud to say I'm not like you. Me, I like to learn. Either by watching RyanSTO's vids, figuring stuff out for myself and/or by seeking advice from people more knowledgable than me (usually from ppl who have already done extensive testing on this or that). The latter, of course, requires acknowledging the existence of people in this world who know more than I do. Unlike you, that is not an ego-crushing realization to me (up to the point where I feel I need to go post and pretend I never seek advice, LOL).
Dude, what's with the constant smack talk?! Why is it that every other line here is a spiteful ad hominem of sorts?! Is that a requirement for this forum section or something?! You silly man! Of course RyanSTO is a better player than me! That's why I brought him up! :P You guys are hilarious!
Soo... this proves what exactly?! That his minute understanding of keybindings/lockout mechanism is flawed?! That you should use the Hilbert Guide? Or that you're the better PvP-er?! Assuming you meant the latter, I doubt RyanSTO ever claimed anything to the contrary, and I know *I* certainly didn't.
All you say is true.
I was just a little surprised, is all, when I saw Hilbert Guide mentioned here, as it's usually the PvP-ers who can be found in General Discussion, fond of endlessly ridiculing those stupid 'spacebar smashers'. So, I scratched my head a bit on that one. The way Hilbert (and, to some extent, others, you like, explained it to me, in terms of quick-and-dirty survivability), it now makes kinda sense to me.
Not even Q would be able to fix such brain failure. If anything you should be licking PvPers feet for having Ionic and other broken Intel stuff fixed in the first place. Imagine chained unresistable stuns from IT spammed by iconians that could track you, while SS wipes your poor ship. That would have been some major crying worth watching.
Sharx's video clearly shows how PvPers always have the upper hand on PvErs when it comes to space fighting. What's your problem? Do PvErs search the web for "STO PVP" when they feel an inferiority complex and write senseless post in here?
cit. DDIS.
Leaderboards made for PvP?! Who on earth was talking about that!?! LOL.
Again with the ego-sizing, LOL. Must really be a hard-wired PvP-thingy, that everything always comes down to who is the better PvP-er. Honestly, I find this very amusing.
Hilbert leaderboard was made for PvP. It analyses the combatlog from PvP matches and uploads it through a client.
Dude you're just so much of a fail. Reading comprehension test failed.
He failed the reading comprehension test, don't be too harsh. He has a lower IQ than my garbage can.
Why, y'all *did* get SS3 and IT nerfed. Good thing we got KCLW back for it. But, as others have mentioned, there's also the thing going on where Cryptic makes things 'too good to be true' on purpose, and then essentially hides behind PvP-ers' complaints, as an excuse to nerf it a few months down the road. So, there's plenty of blame to go around.
Reading comprehension test failed.
ROFL. Do you people ever look at yourselves?! Me, I rarely come here (for obvious reasons, methinks). But I gotta say, honestly, I find this constant smack talk hi-frakkin'-larious!
The spacebar bind is probably the big legacy of the guide part of the THG now that the game has changed so much that the builds are all kind of outdated and can only serve as inspiration for players' own creations since it appears to be pretty much impossible to give a level 60 build suggestion that adheres to the THG's basic idea of "easily obtainable and essentially free ships/equipment".
Let me explain this to you. You are a cheer leader. You bring up other peoples names to prove the point.
Since you know jack about what you're talking about you call upon someone else.
This proves all of the above + it proves that PvE rots your mind if you didn't see(read) that HilbertsGuide is made by PvPer for PvPers(not only) and that it has only PvP leaderboard in game.
* it proves how little you know about DPS people like Ryan, Porch and others. They have extensively played PvP before DR, bragged how they pawned these and those PUGs with FAW boats. hell I joined them myself few times in such games and on TS. And we met on opposite sides as well. Not to mention PvE.
Basically, you mistook this subforum for general section where your average Starfleet Joe will bow down to your private DPS gods and go ahead and buy latest OP BS from exchange just to reach 10k.
And yes, if you can't make your own build and you must rely on other people stuff to make a functional FAW DPS failboat your arguments here have 0 value.
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I don't see how someone with that IQ can even get offended. Anyways, first you gotta pass the reading comprehension test.
Quoted for truth. When someone brags on how cool they are on using a build that's not even theirs is epic. Calling in someone else to defend your statements, that's what I meant with IQ lower than my garbage can. Come on, bring ryan down here. If you can of course.
1st.: this is the hilbert-GUIDE-thread, not the leaderboard one.
2nd.: meimei, jedis not talked about posts of yours in here now, but in recent threads and on several occasions where u voiced against "the pvpers who are out to get nerfed <whatever>".
so i assume one can be amused by the fact u did refer on dps-league, while it can be compared to pvp (as it used to be; several well known fleets, occassional tourneys, q's full of premades) in many ways. just not the specialization itself.
btw: there are many pvp-vids out there that also give very good insights on certain gamestyles/mechanics. thissler is just one out of many examples, jedis himself just as well...
on a last sidenote: several powers bound to one key might give an advantage or not. i can't tell myself as i never used anything but my tray, mouse and keyboard. lots of clicking, most flexibility. as many said the guide can be a start to pvp, but isn't the answer.
in conclusion i please u guys to stop it now in here. it's the hilbert-guide thread dammit, not one of the other dirt-pits.... thx in advance.
Oh, you mean the reading comprehension test you just failed for not understanding this isn't the "PVP Leaderboards" thread?! Hahaha! The universe may well collapse under so much irony!
THIS!
All other points have been made
Actually, I think I'm gonna follow that suggestion. This all gets sillier by the minute anyway.
In conclusion: I'm grateful the Hilbert Guide existed, and served me well, at one point, to get the keybind basics, along with friendly 'cookie-cutter' builds to boot. And I'm equally grateful ppl like RyanSTO picked up the ball since, and turned keybinding into an art-form.
Recalls the thread title right when he had shifted the discussion on Hilbert's PvP leaderboard. Failed worse than reading comprehension. Think you ego was crippled enough for today, so I'm giving back the thread to H.
Still, make sure you beat those NPCs hard. I'm sure they are epic fun and hard to blow up.
That's a funny, be it rather warped. way of saying I respect certain people's opinion, yes.
Where do you get this stange notion that I don't make my own builds?! Or did you just pull that strawman out of your TRIBBLE because, yes, why exactly?!
Also, have you not been informed yet?! Builds mean very little. It's all about the piloting. If only it were so easy as copying RyanSTO's builds! Or those of sarcasmdetector. Sadly, it doesn't work that way.
P.S. And FYI, you're listed in the DPS-League for 43k. Me, for 48k. Hahaha! That was funny!
Well, the Hilbert Guide has been a PvP-staple for ages. In particular the spacebar bind. Hell, it was required reading for ALL people who went into PvP Bootcamp while that was going on. So, I can kind of understand people might be...miffed, if someone comes into this area of the forum and starts to dismiss it, that would get under their skin a bit.
But I admit, I must agree with Hilbert, it's difficult to justify using some of the ship guides since those were always meant to be a way of getting a decent set-up with cheap and/or free gear and ships. With how the game, especially since DR, it's ten times harder to try and figure that out.
I can understand what you're saying; especially, since I've made ample use of the Hilbert Guide myself.
No offense was meant towards Hilbert; I've thanked him for his guide (here, and before); and it will always have been an important part of my STO experience. Just didn't understand why PvP-ers would use it (out of bootcamp, that is); but I think it's been sufficiently clear now, to me, why things in PvP work differently that way.
In interest of not derailing the thread again I'll ignore your last post directed to me and answer this one.
If you started this way I and others wouldn't have responded in such manner.
Red Part:
Thing is, PvP and PvE have same mechanics, work under same set of laws.
Prior to Delta Rising all now known PvErs played PvP as well, and vice versa.
This level of DPS craze and strong PvE/PvP separation only started when Cryptic made borg in ISA ginormous hit-bags.
Sooner you realize that playing versus a good player is way harder and requires more piloting skill, better timing and better knowledge of game mechanics, sooner you'll stop spreading animosity towards PvPers on forums.
Why doesn't PvE rely on builds now? Well, it's because you all fly FAWboats.
Further more, PvE in STO is completely predictable. You can memorize everything in ISA and make a team to reach DPS nirvana if you want.
There is no science or wizardry involved. We are talking about NPCs without any buffs or debuffs.
PvP requires much more then that.
And BTW my 43k comes from a single ISA i did after EAP fix and i used only 3DHCs+1 torp
If i ever was for DPS craze i would own more then one beam in my inventory and gold weapons.
Only thing that is sad is that all that's left from STO now is DPS as a way of milking players.
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