One thing I'd like to see (assuming season 9 is a Borg resurgence) is the promises of the Undines return, we made an alliance (of sorts) with them in The Light In The Dark, its about time they got off their butts and started actively opposing the Iconians already.
One thing I'd like to see (assuming season 9 is a Borg resurgence) is the promises of the Undines return, we made an alliance (of sorts) with them in The Light In The Dark, its about time they got off their butts and started actively opposing the Iconians already.
Did you play the same mission I played?
We escorted a telepath into fluidic space to contact the Undine and negotiate.
The Undine took that as a new invasion attempt, destroyed the telepath's ship, captured her for study and we had to shoot dozens of them to get her back.
Then we blew up the only known evidence in existence that the Iconians invaded fluidic space, not the Alpha Quadrant powers (the Gateway in the Undine detention facility) and made our escape.
Now tell me... do you think that passes as an alliance? :P
Some of the points could fit in with the Elachi. But going off of the borg vs. voth concept, think about all the technological similarities between the Voth and the Borg. Both have access to transwarps technology and cybernetic implants. I wonder if there is a further connection between the two factions?
+1 on a Borg comeback. This could lead to a whole bunch of new STFs with a super duper elite mode. An Undine STF series would be awesome sauce too ... though that doesn't make sense with the current story.
STFs remain the most beloved content based on what I have seen on the forums and in game. They certainly are my fav ... I have just done them too many times.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
My (joking) origin for the Borg is that Vejur, newly transcended from joining with Will Decker, transwarped back to the Machine Planet and was all:
"Guys, GUYS, listen, turns out that assimilating carbon units is actually AWESOME, like so incredibly AWESOME, you've got to try this for yourselves, really, go get yourselves some carbon units of your own... kay, we're outta here, seeya!"
And the Machines shrugged their collective circuits and did as the strange little traveller suggested.
They were planned to be linked to what should become the Borg
But the show went another way, and the Neural Parasites were forgotten.
That's one storyline I want STO to pick up.
The Neural Parasites were orginally the Borg. They had inteneded for the Borg to be an insectoid race with the hive mind. But ye ole budget monster put an end to that plan. So we wound up with what we have now for the Borg.
The Neural Parasites were orginally the Borg. They had inteneded for the Borg to be an insectoid race with the hive mind. But ye ole budget monster put an end to that plan. So we wound up with what we have now for the Borg.
That doesn't render the Parasites non-canon, though.
They just did not became the Borg.
I came up with the following for a tabletop game awhile back, and expanded it to fit STO as the story unfolded in game. I made a couple minor updates, and here it is. Note that this is "head canon" and only one of many many possible story-ideas!
The Preserver were the first of their kind in the galaxy. A particular type of humanoid... in fact THE archtype. There were other types of life and civilizations, but none like them. SO they undertook a great project to create more... like themselves.
As the years rolled on and the Preservers declined, the life they created started making empires in the stars. Gradually two opposing points of view came into contact... one was regarded as mighty beyond measure... able to move entire stars at a whim. The other, regarded as foul demons of air and darkness.
They fought... and over the course of the war the Tkon empire lost it's heartworlds to a supernova. In retaliation, Iconia was bombarded to a cinder.
Today, many relics of this titanic battle can be found around the galaxy. Planet-Killers, gateways, rapidly adapting cybernetic lifeforms, angry/bitter lifeforms that do not trust solid-life, beings that chose to isolate themselves from the galaxy in a fluid-filled pocket.
The Federation And Friends are dealing with the fallout of this war... which is now about to flare up again. The Iconians have regrouped... and they want what they had previously. The Borg are preparing to fight them. The Founders know better than to get involved again, and 8472 just wants to stay out of the way.
Without the Tkon in the picture it seems as if the Iconians are going to marshal their forces and just roll over everyone. Including the Borg which were the first line of defense previously. All the other ancient players are either gone, or are not playing this time around for whatever reason. The Federation is really the only player on the field, and the Iconians realize that... hence one war-front after another. But yet somehow the Feds hang on.
Eventually the Iconians are going to stage a return... Right now, they still fear the Borg, even though they have perfected their computer-scrambling virus-spheres... once the Borg are weakened sufficiently... and the Federation is in pieces they will show themselves as the true masters of the galaxy.
That is unless the Federation causes them to play their hand earlier than anticipated.
---
I wish STO would put some thought into the actual STORY rather than taking the approach they are now. I don't log on to spin slot-machines, I log in to play a game and hear a story. Very frustrating.
Interesting post.
But one nitpick: The Tkon Empire was long dead by the time the Iconian Empire came onto the scene.
The Tkon homeworld was destroyed during the "Age of Makto" (Tkon dating), which was roughly 600,000 years ago. The empire went into decline and dissolution afterwards. Iconia (and a lot of other worlds in their domain) got glassed 200,000 years ago. With that big gap in time, it's unlikely that the Iconians ever came in contact with the Tkon.
I can see the Iconians having run afoul of the Preservers, since it's canon that they were active in more recent history (that, or whatever contingency plans they left behind after they vanished from the galactic scene remained active).
But one nitpick: The Tkon Empire was long dead by the time the Iconian Empire came onto the scene.
The Tkon homeworld was destroyed during the "Age of Makto" (Tkon dating), which was roughly 600,000 years ago. The empire went into decline and dissolution afterwards. Iconia (and a lot of other worlds in their domain) got glassed 200,000 years ago. With that big gap in time, it's unlikely that the Iconians ever came in contact with the Tkon.
I can see the Iconians having run afoul of the Preservers, since it's canon that they were active in more recent history (that, or whatever contingency plans they left behind after they vanished from the galactic scene remained active).
The Voth have been active for at least 20 million years.
The Iconias were bombed 200 000 years ago. That does not tell us how long they were around beforehand.
The Voth have been active for at least 20 million years.
The Iconias were bombed 200 000 years ago. That does not tell us how long they were around beforehand.
Not really relevant considering what the poster was proposing. His/her proposal had Iconia destroyed in retaliation for the destruction of the Tkon home system. Which of course, would be impossible considering the dates.
And as for the Voth, they are a very rare example of a thriving civilization dating that far back into antiquity. Most of the really ancient civilizations that were encountered over the course of Star Trek, left only active relics, if anything (i.e. Sargon's culture). There is no reason to believe the Iconians date back that far.
Not really relevant considering what the poster was proposing. His/her proposal had Iconia destroyed in retaliation for the destruction of the Tkon home system. Which of course, would be impossible considering the dates.
And as for the Voth, they are a very rare example of a thriving civilization dating that far back into antiquity. Most of the really ancient civilizations that were encountered over the course of Star Trek, left only active relics, if anything (i.e. Sargon's culture). There is no reason to believe the Iconians date back that far.
I'm not so sure. The Voth are old, but to say they were thriving 10M years ago is far fetched.
Not really relevant considering what the poster was proposing. His/her proposal had Iconia destroyed in retaliation for the destruction of the Tkon home system. Which of course, would be impossible considering the dates.
Considering Al Rivera stated in an interview or podcast that the Undine will be featured in the next bit of content, it makes sense that the Voth's enemy is either Borg or Undine.
Way to miss the point entirely.... There's HUGE difference between a civilization thriving for 20M years and merely existing for 20M years.
What I was getting at is that we don't know when the Voth first became the galactic power they are today. How long did they spend wandering the stars as little more than Nomadic vagrants?
It's not a faulty assumption, it's canon. The Borg began as flesh and blood and added the machine later. Watch ST:FC again. The Borg Queen spells it out for you.
She tried adding flesh to Data in an attempt to manipulate him into giving her the Enterprise's command codes. If you recall, Data had said they could not "forcibly remove" them. She tried giving him what he always wanted - flesh and blood - in order to obtain the codes. The whole plot point is rather cut and dry. You're over thinking it.
I think not. There is a certain amount of room for interpretation here. As has already been pointed out, she may or may not be referring to the collective when she says "we". Also, as you pointed out, the whole line of discussion was her attempting to manipulate Data. This gives us reason to question whether it could be a lie.
Do you really want to enter this conversation? Do you really want for me to point out when exactly was the extinction event?
They still beat humankind for well over 16 MILLION of years if we are going to consider tools.
You're right, the Voth are old.
Damn old.
I actually wonder why they are not even far, far, far morde advanced then they already are.
That is why I don't really like their ingame representation without using some McGuffin to make it work (aka The Sphere interfers with their technology).
If anything, the should have expanded upon their superiority, not watered it down by "oh, we catched up in the last 30 years to the species that should be 20 million years ahead of us".
Oh, and Devs... if you think about a species from the shows, don't think about "hm, how can we make them weak enough to fight them?".
Think "should we fight them, if they are supposed to be that superior?".
How you see room for interpretation in the quote I posted is beyond me. The Borg Queen states plain as day the Borg started out as flesh and blood, then "evolved to include the synthetic". Again, you're over thinking and trying to twist the canon into something that it isn't.
Twist? I'm simply mentioning that there's more than one way to look at it.
Do you really want to enter this conversation? Do you really want for me to point out when exactly was the extinction event?
They still beat humankind for well over 16 MILLION of years if we are going to consider tools.
And you're still missing the point.... There are several undeniable facts about the Voth.
1: Their tech is good, but not as good as human tech would be after 20 million years of research. This leads us the undeniable fact that the Voth really don't improve their tech often. Why not? Doctrine. If the Voth believe it can't be done because Doctrine says no, then they don't usually try. Thus, for a 20M year old race, Voth tech is utter garbage. It's superior to most perhaps, but really not that good when looked at from the perspective of age.
2: The Voth are not as numerous as one might expect given the age of their civilization. Sure, they control a large section of the Delta Quadrant, but either they don't TRY to expand their influence, or they have met severe resistance to their expansion efforts in the past.
IF we are to pretend that the Voth have been a thriving, growing civilization for 20 million years, these two facts are absurd. Thus it's impossible for them to have been a healthy civilization for 20M years. what have they spent all that time doing? No idea.... But, I'm leaning towards interstellar refugees.
Who knows how often Voth were bombed back into the stone age...
Maybe the last time was when some alliance of species fought the Iconians and bombed their planet? That would effectively mean that Voth tech is "only" 200 000 years old.
Sure, there could be artifacts scattered around the galaxy...
Actually, doesn't make that a lot of sense? They Voth claim that the Dyson Sphere was created by their ancestors. Even if they are just plain lying for propaganda purposes, the lie has to be somewhat convenient.
Doctrine demands that there are 20 million years of Voth history. That doesn't tell us how much of that was made up after wars and disasters.
So I concur. 20 million years of "thriving"? Nope. 20 million years of interstellar presence? More or less, yes.
If a bunch of Federation starships can defeat a Borg Cube (and if a single Intrepid Class can defeat a small Borg Fleet) then I'm pretty sure the Voth would be able to take the fight to the Borg with some ease. I doubt it's the Krenim they're fighting either. It's likely someone older. Most probably some slave species that the Iconian have doing their bidding.
I think not. There is a certain amount of room for interpretation here. As has already been pointed out, she may or may not be referring to the collective when she says "we". Also, as you pointed out, the whole line of discussion was her attempting to manipulate Data. This gives us reason to question whether it could be a lie.
Did you really just write that? :rolleyes:
I think, for all intense purposes, the Borg did originate as Organic. Even if they didn't, they'd still have to have been built by Organics (thus their origin would still be Organic).
I think the misconception is whether the borg queen was talking about the borg as a whole or just her species was flawed until she accepted the borgs synthetics, personally I like to believe it was a convergence of two races that made the borg, one organic and one synthetic.
Comments
Did you play the same mission I played?
We escorted a telepath into fluidic space to contact the Undine and negotiate.
The Undine took that as a new invasion attempt, destroyed the telepath's ship, captured her for study and we had to shoot dozens of them to get her back.
Then we blew up the only known evidence in existence that the Iconians invaded fluidic space, not the Alpha Quadrant powers (the Gateway in the Undine detention facility) and made our escape.
Now tell me... do you think that passes as an alliance? :P
One of my favourite storylines in sto was the fresh attempts to assimilate species 8472.
STFs remain the most beloved content based on what I have seen on the forums and in game. They certainly are my fav ... I have just done them too many times.
- Judge Aaron Satie
Yes, they did. They are the "Silent Enemy".
Why do you ask?
"Guys, GUYS, listen, turns out that assimilating carbon units is actually AWESOME, like so incredibly AWESOME, you've got to try this for yourselves, really, go get yourselves some carbon units of your own... kay, we're outta here, seeya!"
And the Machines shrugged their collective circuits and did as the strange little traveller suggested.
The Neural Parasites were orginally the Borg. They had inteneded for the Borg to be an insectoid race with the hive mind. But ye ole budget monster put an end to that plan. So we wound up with what we have now for the Borg.
That doesn't render the Parasites non-canon, though.
They just did not became the Borg.
Interesting post.
But one nitpick: The Tkon Empire was long dead by the time the Iconian Empire came onto the scene.
The Tkon homeworld was destroyed during the "Age of Makto" (Tkon dating), which was roughly 600,000 years ago. The empire went into decline and dissolution afterwards. Iconia (and a lot of other worlds in their domain) got glassed 200,000 years ago. With that big gap in time, it's unlikely that the Iconians ever came in contact with the Tkon.
I can see the Iconians having run afoul of the Preservers, since it's canon that they were active in more recent history (that, or whatever contingency plans they left behind after they vanished from the galactic scene remained active).
The Voth have been active for at least 20 million years.
The Iconias were bombed 200 000 years ago. That does not tell us how long they were around beforehand.
Not really relevant considering what the poster was proposing. His/her proposal had Iconia destroyed in retaliation for the destruction of the Tkon home system. Which of course, would be impossible considering the dates.
And as for the Voth, they are a very rare example of a thriving civilization dating that far back into antiquity. Most of the really ancient civilizations that were encountered over the course of Star Trek, left only active relics, if anything (i.e. Sargon's culture). There is no reason to believe the Iconians date back that far.
My character Tsin'xing
You have a point.
What I was getting at is that we don't know when the Voth first became the galactic power they are today. How long did they spend wandering the stars as little more than Nomadic vagrants?
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
You're right, the Voth are old.
Damn old.
I actually wonder why they are not even far, far, far morde advanced then they already are.
That is why I don't really like their ingame representation without using some McGuffin to make it work (aka The Sphere interfers with their technology).
If anything, the should have expanded upon their superiority, not watered it down by "oh, we catched up in the last 30 years to the species that should be 20 million years ahead of us".
Oh, and Devs... if you think about a species from the shows, don't think about "hm, how can we make them weak enough to fight them?".
Think "should we fight them, if they are supposed to be that superior?".
1: Their tech is good, but not as good as human tech would be after 20 million years of research. This leads us the undeniable fact that the Voth really don't improve their tech often. Why not? Doctrine. If the Voth believe it can't be done because Doctrine says no, then they don't usually try. Thus, for a 20M year old race, Voth tech is utter garbage. It's superior to most perhaps, but really not that good when looked at from the perspective of age.
2: The Voth are not as numerous as one might expect given the age of their civilization. Sure, they control a large section of the Delta Quadrant, but either they don't TRY to expand their influence, or they have met severe resistance to their expansion efforts in the past.
IF we are to pretend that the Voth have been a thriving, growing civilization for 20 million years, these two facts are absurd. Thus it's impossible for them to have been a healthy civilization for 20M years. what have they spent all that time doing? No idea.... But, I'm leaning towards interstellar refugees.
My character Tsin'xing
Maybe the last time was when some alliance of species fought the Iconians and bombed their planet? That would effectively mean that Voth tech is "only" 200 000 years old.
Sure, there could be artifacts scattered around the galaxy...
Actually, doesn't make that a lot of sense? They Voth claim that the Dyson Sphere was created by their ancestors. Even if they are just plain lying for propaganda purposes, the lie has to be somewhat convenient.
Doctrine demands that there are 20 million years of Voth history. That doesn't tell us how much of that was made up after wars and disasters.
So I concur. 20 million years of "thriving"? Nope. 20 million years of interstellar presence? More or less, yes.
I think, for all intense purposes, the Borg did originate as Organic. Even if they didn't, they'd still have to have been built by Organics (thus their origin would still be Organic).