In pve and engscort is awesome....in pvp it can't do enough spike damage
And you maintain this position even taking into account stuff like advanced fleet antiproton DHCs, five Mk XI purple antiproton consoles, all Rep attack bonuses, the obelisk warp core/beam array antiproton bonus, borg console crit bonus, technician doffs + attack patterns and other BO abilities, and the decloaking attack bonus (fleet defiant)?
Exactly how much spike damage in one pass is necessary for a build to be worthy, and how do you measure it in a meaningful way? Heck, how do you measure kills in a meaningful way?
And you maintain this position even taking into account stuff like advanced fleet antiproton DHCs, five Mk XI purple antiproton consoles, all Rep attack bonuses, the obelisk warp core/beam array antiproton bonus, borg console crit bonus, technician doffs + attack patterns and other BO abilities, and the decloaking attack bonus (fleet defiant)?
Exactly how much spike damage in one pass is necessary for a build to be worthy, and how do you measure it in a meaningful way? Heck, how do you measure kills in a meaningful way?
I thought you didn't pvp? At least that's what you've been saying in another thread. Either that or you just hate pvp with a passion and still do it. So why are you even here?
If you actually pvp'ed you would know all the answers to what you just asked. I used to run an engscort, but once all the rep and embassy passive heals came, it quickly became pretty obvious that it wasn't going to work anymore, at least outside of kerrat against a good player.
No use mindlessly condemning "unapproved" builds, either. Add to the list of utterly pointless debates this "DPS parser score above all else" way of evaluating them.
You're just being contrarian, and illogical.
The role of an Escort on a team is to remove opposing targets.
The most optimal pairing is a Tac, although a Sci can work.
So what does the Engineer add to an Escort with regards to the primary goal of removing opposing targets?
Does an Engineer add anything that a Tac doesn't to benefit the primary goal of removing targets in a way that makes it equal or more optimal? (no)
As for "mindlessly condemning"...
You have absolutely zero clue what you are talking about.
The person you are addressing, naz, regularly spends countless hundreds of millions on testing any build that might have a mere hint of being a new angle on effectiveness.
I watched him once drop a few hundred million ECs, some dil and zen to build an Eng/Cruiser concept that I had only even mentioned in passing (I felt bad).
The man does not come here and talk out of his nether region, he actually builds, experiments and takes those ships into combat constantly.
The only one here mindlessly condemning things they clearly don't understand, is you.
And you maintain this position even taking into account stuff like advanced fleet antiproton DHCs, five Mk XI purple antiproton consoles, all Rep attack bonuses, the obelisk warp core/beam array antiproton bonus, borg console crit bonus, technician doffs + attack patterns and other BO abilities, and the decloaking attack bonus (fleet defiant)?
Exactly how much spike damage in one pass is necessary for a build to be worthy, and how do you measure it in a meaningful way? Heck, how do you measure kills in a meaningful way?
Yes this is not anywhere close to enough to spike kill any competent player anymore... and sadly its not enough to spike kill most of the incompetent ones either.
Even with the massive force multiplier that APA is even that won't be enough to take down very many with out support either.
Yes that 20k Engi Overload you put out is very painful... but its not the 60-70k you will get out of a tac... and 20k isn't enough spike anymore. At one time yes you could nibble people and pop dual overloads out of an engi for 12-20k spikes every 15s... and that was enough to do it... now with resists where they are and healing where it is 20k every 15s ? It doesn't even register as tickle dmg.
Saddly as far as pvp goes Engi escort has been dead quite awhile... it was always questionable to be honest... now it really isn't even a question.
I thought you didn't pvp? At least that's what you've been saying in another thread. Either that or you just hate pvp with a passion and still do it. So why are you even here?
I never said I don't PvP. I just don't interact with teammates more than necessary, because they are usually more aggravation than it's worth.
If you actually pvp'ed you would know all the answers to what you just asked. I used to run an engscort, but once all the rep and embassy passive heals came, it quickly became pretty obvious that it wasn't going to work anymore, at least outside of kerrat against a good player.
It works for me. I neither get the most kills/damage/healing nor the least, most of the time. The self-healing compromise is a necessity born of the fact that I can't depend on the team-heal crutch in PUG matches, and don't have time to organize a 5-person team in advance.
So what does the Engineer add to an Escort with regards to the primary goal of removing opposing targets?
Said it before, and I'll say it again. You're not "removing opposing targets" if you're dead, and I don't have the team heal crutch to depend on. Unless you're always able to hide behind the skirts of a premade team, self-reliance is every bit as important as raw damage and kills.
You have absolutely zero clue what you are talking about.
Yeah, I've only been playing since it went live. What would I know. :rolleyes:
Said it before, and I'll say it again. You're not "removing opposing targets" if you're dead, and I don't have the team heal crutch to depend on. Unless you're always able to hide behind the skirts of a premade team, self-reliance is every bit as important as raw damage and kills.
You can say it as many times as you like, all that tells me is that you personally are unable to survive as a Tac.
You can make up insults and toss around nonsense if you like, we have plenty of players in our fleet who PUG in their Tac/Escorts, and don't require hiding behind anything.
Yeah, I've only been playing since it went live. What would I know. :rolleyes:
That's great, I'm very happy for you.
Now, what does that have to do with you still having zero clue about what you are talking about when it comes to naz? (Hint: Nothing, you just flubbed this one)
You can say it as many times as you like, all that tells me is that you personally are unable to survive as a Tac.
Because I can't build in any decent heals if everything is a DPS race, and I can't rely on anyone else to do the healing for me. It's a valid point whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
Now, what does that have to do with you still having zero clue about what you are talking about when it comes to naz? (Hint: Nothing, you just flubbed this one)
Really not interested in memorizing your special friend's pedigree. Especially when you're so eager to dismiss my own lengthy experience.
Because I can't build in any decent heals if everything is a DPS race, and I can't rely on anyone else to do the healing for me. It's a valid point whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
I've just acknowledged that we have players that do exactly this, so the issue lies with you.
No use mindlessly condemning "unapproved" builds, either. Add to the list of utterly pointless debates this "DPS parser score above all else" way of evaluating them.
This is the part where you have zero clue about what you are talking about.
Since:
1) Naz isn't mindlessly condemning anything.
2) No one is talking about "DPS parser scores" in PvP in this thread.
I've just acknowledged that we have players that do exactly this, so the issue lies with you.
The "issue" there lies with anyone who dares not spend $$$ on a JHAS speed-tanker. I utterly and flatly refuse to have anything to do with lockboxes.
Also, not everything that mounts DHCs counts as an "escort," nor does everything with the "escort" label on it count equally.
Do you even pay attention to your own posts?
I fade in and out.
[2) No one is talking about "DPS parser scores" in PvP in this thread.
Then leave DPS out of the discussion. There is no meaningful way to evaluate it anyway.
You can peg the scales without getting any kills. You can get kills without registering impressive DPS in some arbitrary logger. The fact is that the only way to meaningfully evaluate a build is to spend time practicing with that exact, specific build. Anything short of that absolutely is mindless condemnation.
Because I can't build in any decent heals if everything is a DPS race, and I can't rely on anyone else to do the healing for me. It's a valid point whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
Hazards + TSS + EPTS/E... Omega... Delta... Aux To Sif/Damp or RSP... Evasive
Throw in a 2 piece borg hull heal and a Fleet or Maco Shield...
At that point your pretty much pug ready... I don't see how having the one MW save ever few min is a good trade.
Engi is in a better place then it used to be with its new traits... still in an escort. Its just not the right place for it.
EPS transfer is replaced by 2 piece borg weapon set bonus Omega Amp.
MW... is questionable on an escort... the heal isn't very big... if you NEEDED MW you are likely dead 10s later anyway. If you didn't really need it and where just using it to top off your heals... so you could run a junky Ensign or Lt sci ability instead of a staple heal skill... you would be better off in another ship class anyway.
I think we are mostly all tell you that ... yes engi scort was fun... and we are sad that its not a real option anymore... no matter how much anyone you or anyone arguing the other side would like.
Hazards + TSS + EPTS/E... Omega... Delta... Aux To Sif/Damp or RSP... Evasive
Yes, I know about bridge officer skills. Thanks. :rolleyes:
I have two Eng BO skill slots. Two. Those go for EPtS 1 and DEM1.
Two science slots. Hazard emitters and polarize hull.
Yes, I have two copies of APO and TT.
Throw in a 2 piece borg hull heal and a Fleet or Maco Shield...
I run the borg 2-piece with the Adapted MACO covariant.
At that point your pretty much pug ready... I don't see how having the one MW save ever few min is a good trade.
I forget now if it's a DOFF ability or something I got from reputation, but my MW has a chance to reset almost immediately. It is not stuck on a lengthy cooldown.
EPS transfer is replaced by 2 piece borg weapon set bonus Omega Amp.
Got both. Use both.
and we are sad that its not a real option anymore....
Unless you're imposing some silly "100% success, or 100% failure" dichotomy, I maintain that it is a real option.
Yeah, "fun builds" aren't really compatible with "effective builds," unfortunately. It takes a lot of skill and determination to hold your own without resorting to some boring, cookie-cutter "DPS hose" build.
I'm not following this whole thread but actually you were the first person to bring up DPS...
It follows logically from the thread title. The death of build originality is largely (but not entirely) due to cookie-cutter builds to maximize DPS at all costs.
It follows logically from the thread title. The death of build originality is largely (but not entirely) due to cookie-cutter builds to maximize DPS at all costs.
Since not all builds for pvp require "dps" it doesn't logically follow. Some builds do spike damage, some heal, some CC, some disable, and only some "dps." There are cookie cutter builds for all of those. So no, it doesn't follow.
Since not all builds for pvp require "dps" it doesn't logically follow. Some builds do spike damage, some heal, some CC, some disable, and only some "dps." So no, it doesn't follow.
Yes, it does. There is no need for the DPS race to be the entire cause for it to logically follow that it be counted among the causes.
It follows logically from the thread title. The death of build originality is largely (but not entirely) due to cookie-cutter builds to maximize DPS at all costs.
Its more then just DPS though... yes DPS optimization is a reality... it goes the other way as well on defense.
Why do we need to optimize spike... well because healing and defense has likewise been buffed.
You mentioned it yourself they added a engi trait for one that resets MW... I agree with this change... however in a ship that can take advantage of massive hull hit point pools. (not your escort) the amonut of spike needed to overcome 60+k of hull with a double shot of MW is not coming from another Engi EVER. You can't spike 120k... you just can't. Which is why you will never ever kill an engi cruiser with an engi escort.
Consoles that heal hull and shield on chance... (sci embassy consoles).
Reo Traits that mulitple passive shield regen by a factor of 4.
Rep traits that provide instant shield heals.
Massive resistances imparted by DOFFS.
Defensive Cool downs IGNORED thanks to doffs. (RSP/EPTx/TSS/Hazards/Delta/Omega/Tac Team... all at global)
High chance of complete debuff clears every 15s again thanks to doffs.
I am missing plenty I am sure... all of that type of stuff is power creep that forces people into specific builds.
When it first hit... the Vapor builds became very popular because they buffed the defense stuff first... and even full on hard hitting tac scorts where not doing enough dps to kill people... Spike needed to be first and formost... Cryptic nerfed the dreaded Double Tap... it existed in the game since day one... but all of a sudden it seemed unfair to people. It only got popular because Cryptic power creeped it into being the only sure way to kill someone. Nuke em all from orbit man.
Yes lately they have been creeping DPS again... but bottom line is ... its the creep on both sides of the coin that have forced people into very specific best of builds to combat the stupid high levels of both defense and offense.
This game has always been a game of Buffed or bust... Dmg is suck with out lots of buffs... and defense is just as bad with out.
What has been happening is those buffs have been getting stronger and stronger... so the idea of playing with a build that may forgo one of those OP buffs... is just crazy because with out it you are toast. Hence the death of most of the games varation in builds. (at least in any serious way)
Which is why you will never ever kill an engi cruiser with an engi escort.
Maybe, but he's not killing me, either (no, I don't depend entirely on MW for survival. :rolleyes:). So, "tank vs hit and run" stalemate until one or both us involve teammates, at which point it is no longer a test of any individual build.
Lately I've noticed that the community has made a definite shift from providing advice and suggestions for builds to a sort of blanket "You're doing it wrong, if you're [profession] flying [ship type], you need to be doing [cookie cutter build of the month".
Whenever someone asks for build help, or tries to make a build that isn't just a variation on the cookie cutter build of the month, the response seems to be almost universally negative. Nobody really seems interested in trying to make that build better, except by just scrapping everything and doing cookie cutter.
And frankly I've really been soured on PVP lately because we as a community seem to have lost that desire to create new builds, optimize underutilized skills into effectiveness, or otherwise go against the grain. I don't know if it's just collective fugue or tiredness- but it's rather disheartening when 9/10 posts in a thread are "You're stupid, your build is stupid, you should be running X instead", rather than trying to make a better capable version of that kind or style of build.
Maybe it's just me that's noticed this- idk, but I felt like maybe the community would benefit by thinking about the prevalence of this sort of behaviour, because it seems to have subtly crept up on everyone without them noticing they do it.
I honestly believe alot of actual good players that have enough of this game, have a original build laying around hwich were once viable, but being overshadowed by builds like FaW etc.
Mark my words, once this TRIBBLE FaW TRIBBLE is being nerfed, the real skilled ships(builds) will get close to the surface again.
Once FaW etc gets nerfed, tons of bad players hwich actually have no skill at all will suddenly find themselves scratching their head on how to do damage now. And they willl probably wait for the next (unintended) exploit to do damage and kills in a very easy way.
I bet half the community is simply sick of the easy play, I remember the times when PvP was about skill, and not a murderfest where everyone can participate in. Granted, even these faw builds have different skill level, and there is still a world of difference between a noob using it and a very experienced player.
I only laugh at those who actually defend this kind of silly gameplay.
I dont think thats the point. I bet all the good experienced vet tacs can make it work in a Engi or Sci too to the best of what is capable, most simply stopped pursuing at least the Engi/Escort format since those experienced players have compared all the classes with each other in the same ship(s) and builds.
What is your point? The point (i think) naz1911 and ultimatum tried to make is you simply aren't maximizing your damage like you would on a Tac. isnt the goal of an 'escort' to get rid of your opponents? Well tac is the way to go. Sci secondary, Engi last. That balance was a bit shifted back in the old days, but even THEN the engi would come out as the last priority for that Escort/Class combo.
Engi Tacs have always been silly, other then EPS and nadeon (Even questionable these days if its still of any benefit at all), i dont see why it is at all beneficial to run a Engi escort other then to gimp yourself and be a selfish tank at the sacrifice of damage.
I can understand a Sci escort, at least they ahve SOME form of tactical advantage, offensive SNB/Sensor scan with fleet deflector for 10% reduction on both. Yeah that can make the difference.
Even then, ask the best tacs out there, they probably all pursued Sci offensive at one time or another, a tac with well timed APA/GDF strike still outperforms any offensive Sciscort/scibop or whatever.
Cheers. The quality of PvPers since F2p is drastically reduced looking at these forums these days. lol
Maybe, but he's not killing me, either (no, I don't depend entirely on MW for survival. :rolleyes:). So, "tank vs hit and run" stalemate until one or both us involve teammates, at which point it is no longer a test of any individual build.
Well in PvP someone needs to die.
Honestly right now with a Aux to bat / DEM / Faw build... yes that engi cruiser is going to smoke you pretty quick. Not as quickly as perhaps a tac scort with the same setup as yours... but it won't take to much longer... and you will simply never even have a chance to do the same to him. A well played tac scort though would have the spike to take him down... of course if it drags out to long the tac scort is in trouble.
I think what I am saying is... playing to tie isn't a great build mantra. Also you are the one that said you don't want to rely on pugs for healing... I guess relying on them for DPS is ok though.
I am winking by the way cause I appreciate a little forum pvp. lmao
I think the truth is far more simple than that. If there are two ways of doing something, one of those ways must be better. Debates about this can only rage for so long before the truth is proven. After 4 years, it is no surprise that this should have happened. You can't have two things that are different without one of them being ultimately inferior.
Well lets just say all the different ships and abilities are random genetic mutations. Eventually survival of the fittest ensures that only the very best will rise to the top. I mean, this is what happens when not everything is created equal, why the (feigned) surprise?
I am winking by the way cause I appreciate a little forum pvp. lmao
Wait a second... don't you come from a school of forum pvp that relies on hiding until the other players quit the forums so that you can then declare victory? Or was that in-game pvp...
I think another problem with build diversity is the price. If you want to have a (new) competitive build, you need to get expensive doffs, gear, ships, reputation etc. It's not like it used to be when one simply levelled a character to 50, equipped white gear, trained some boff abilities and was ready to go. There are things I'd like to try, but I can't because I'm not going to spend hundreds of millions on builds that even on paper are a long shot. And if one is looking at team setups, this cost is amplified by a factor of five.
No use mindlessly condemning "unapproved" builds, either. Add to the list of utterly pointless debates this "DPS parser score above all else" way of evaluating them.
That said, you would have to define the terms for a build "making sense," taking the area of play into account. I say my engscort build makes sense because it works for me.
Even confining your terms to PvP you need to admit that "premade" teams don't necessarily validate one individual's build, and that being on a "pug" team stomped by some "premade" doesn't necessarily condemn anyone's build.
Just got home and read your posts Hanover2.
I condemned it based on hours of testing against and with some of the best players in the game.
Reading some of your posts since i got back, i just cant help but smile in a confused manner. I haven't seen a single valid argument in favour of eng escorts to convince me to start retesting and spending Zen/EC/Lobi to validate if i'm wrong and your right.
Some Key performance indicators for an escort in my opinion:
Killing capability - Can it kill consistently? (Obvious one and Cryptic designated role for escort)
Efficiency - Can it kill very quickly - Spike (Quicker the better)
Damage to kill ratio - How much damage is needed to achieve a kill? (Lower, the better)
Kill time between buff cycles - How quickly can you kill between buff cycles? (The more, the better)
Survivability - Can you survive long enough to get away or get help? (Has to be "Yes" as an answer)
I personally can only see 1 area and Engi escort would be capable of passing and that is definitely not enough to convince me personally to test anything.
Can you hand on heart answer positively to the above?
Well lets just say all the different ships and abilities are random genetic mutations. Eventually survival of the fittest ensures that only the very best will rise to the top. I mean, this is what happens when not everything is created equal, why the (feigned) surprise?
Best quote i've seen in this thread.
Reference the title of this thread, should it not be in a PVE / RP related section? As i see it PvP is all about being better than your opponent(s). That's what motivates me to PvP. To try and be the best at team PvP. To the casual PvPer, maybe not......
I personally can only see 1 area and Engi escort would be capable of passing and that is definitely not enough to convince me personally to test anything.
Again, context. It makes a huge difference if you're evaluating these things 1v1, 5v5, pug/premade, or against a stationary target that doesn't shoot back.
The only consistency in a PUG pvp is chaos, and "pick up" teams are the only viable option for me. Anything that requires me to depend on other players for something rather than do it for myself is irrelevant. No, I don't have APA, but I have two copies of APO and MW with a chance of rapid cooldown.
Again, context. It makes a huge difference if you're evaluating these things 1v1, 5v5, pug/premade, or against a stationary target that doesn't shoot back.
The only consistency in a PUG pvp is chaos, and "pick up" teams are the only viable option for me. Anything that requires me to depend on other players for something rather than do it for myself is irrelevant. No, I don't have APA, but I have two copies of APO and MW with a chance of rapid cooldown.
Go cloak + Tac. Full force + Disguise.
What more do you want?
Its perfectly possible to 15 - 0 your team in a pug. you doing all the killing.
Comments
And you maintain this position even taking into account stuff like advanced fleet antiproton DHCs, five Mk XI purple antiproton consoles, all Rep attack bonuses, the obelisk warp core/beam array antiproton bonus, borg console crit bonus, technician doffs + attack patterns and other BO abilities, and the decloaking attack bonus (fleet defiant)?
Exactly how much spike damage in one pass is necessary for a build to be worthy, and how do you measure it in a meaningful way? Heck, how do you measure kills in a meaningful way?
I thought you didn't pvp? At least that's what you've been saying in another thread. Either that or you just hate pvp with a passion and still do it. So why are you even here?
If you actually pvp'ed you would know all the answers to what you just asked. I used to run an engscort, but once all the rep and embassy passive heals came, it quickly became pretty obvious that it wasn't going to work anymore, at least outside of kerrat against a good player.
You're just being contrarian, and illogical.
The role of an Escort on a team is to remove opposing targets.
The most optimal pairing is a Tac, although a Sci can work.
So what does the Engineer add to an Escort with regards to the primary goal of removing opposing targets?
Does an Engineer add anything that a Tac doesn't to benefit the primary goal of removing targets in a way that makes it equal or more optimal? (no)
As for "mindlessly condemning"...
You have absolutely zero clue what you are talking about.
The person you are addressing, naz, regularly spends countless hundreds of millions on testing any build that might have a mere hint of being a new angle on effectiveness.
I watched him once drop a few hundred million ECs, some dil and zen to build an Eng/Cruiser concept that I had only even mentioned in passing (I felt bad).
The man does not come here and talk out of his nether region, he actually builds, experiments and takes those ships into combat constantly.
The only one here mindlessly condemning things they clearly don't understand, is you.
Yes this is not anywhere close to enough to spike kill any competent player anymore... and sadly its not enough to spike kill most of the incompetent ones either.
Even with the massive force multiplier that APA is even that won't be enough to take down very many with out support either.
Yes that 20k Engi Overload you put out is very painful... but its not the 60-70k you will get out of a tac... and 20k isn't enough spike anymore. At one time yes you could nibble people and pop dual overloads out of an engi for 12-20k spikes every 15s... and that was enough to do it... now with resists where they are and healing where it is 20k every 15s ? It doesn't even register as tickle dmg.
Saddly as far as pvp goes Engi escort has been dead quite awhile... it was always questionable to be honest... now it really isn't even a question.
I never said I don't PvP. I just don't interact with teammates more than necessary, because they are usually more aggravation than it's worth.
It works for me. I neither get the most kills/damage/healing nor the least, most of the time. The self-healing compromise is a necessity born of the fact that I can't depend on the team-heal crutch in PUG matches, and don't have time to organize a 5-person team in advance.
Said it before, and I'll say it again. You're not "removing opposing targets" if you're dead, and I don't have the team heal crutch to depend on. Unless you're always able to hide behind the skirts of a premade team, self-reliance is every bit as important as raw damage and kills.
Yeah, I've only been playing since it went live. What would I know. :rolleyes:
Maybe yours is, but mine is alive and kicking.
...OK Gl HF
Elite Defense Stovokor
You can say it as many times as you like, all that tells me is that you personally are unable to survive as a Tac.
You can make up insults and toss around nonsense if you like, we have plenty of players in our fleet who PUG in their Tac/Escorts, and don't require hiding behind anything.
That's great, I'm very happy for you.
Now, what does that have to do with you still having zero clue about what you are talking about when it comes to naz? (Hint: Nothing, you just flubbed this one)
Because I can't build in any decent heals if everything is a DPS race, and I can't rely on anyone else to do the healing for me. It's a valid point whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
Really not interested in memorizing your special friend's pedigree. Especially when you're so eager to dismiss my own lengthy experience.
I've just acknowledged that we have players that do exactly this, so the issue lies with you.
Do you even pay attention to your own posts?
Are you able to follow a conversation in a thread?
You do realize I was responding to this next quote right?
This is the part where you have zero clue about what you are talking about.
Since:
1) Naz isn't mindlessly condemning anything.
2) No one is talking about "DPS parser scores" in PvP in this thread.
You're wiser than I am, I'm going to blatantly copy your response and remove myself from continuing to address the relentlessly obtuse.
@hanover2
...OK Gl HF
The "issue" there lies with anyone who dares not spend $$$ on a JHAS speed-tanker. I utterly and flatly refuse to have anything to do with lockboxes.
Also, not everything that mounts DHCs counts as an "escort," nor does everything with the "escort" label on it count equally.
I fade in and out.
Then leave DPS out of the discussion. There is no meaningful way to evaluate it anyway.
You can peg the scales without getting any kills. You can get kills without registering impressive DPS in some arbitrary logger. The fact is that the only way to meaningfully evaluate a build is to spend time practicing with that exact, specific build. Anything short of that absolutely is mindless condemnation.
Hazards + TSS + EPTS/E... Omega... Delta... Aux To Sif/Damp or RSP... Evasive
Throw in a 2 piece borg hull heal and a Fleet or Maco Shield...
At that point your pretty much pug ready... I don't see how having the one MW save ever few min is a good trade.
Engi is in a better place then it used to be with its new traits... still in an escort. Its just not the right place for it.
EPS transfer is replaced by 2 piece borg weapon set bonus Omega Amp.
MW... is questionable on an escort... the heal isn't very big... if you NEEDED MW you are likely dead 10s later anyway. If you didn't really need it and where just using it to top off your heals... so you could run a junky Ensign or Lt sci ability instead of a staple heal skill... you would be better off in another ship class anyway.
I think we are mostly all tell you that ... yes engi scort was fun... and we are sad that its not a real option anymore... no matter how much anyone you or anyone arguing the other side would like.
Yes, I know about bridge officer skills. Thanks. :rolleyes:
I have two Eng BO skill slots. Two. Those go for EPtS 1 and DEM1.
Two science slots. Hazard emitters and polarize hull.
Yes, I have two copies of APO and TT.
I run the borg 2-piece with the Adapted MACO covariant.
I forget now if it's a DOFF ability or something I got from reputation, but my MW has a chance to reset almost immediately. It is not stuck on a lengthy cooldown.
Got both. Use both.
Unless you're imposing some silly "100% success, or 100% failure" dichotomy, I maintain that it is a real option.
I'm not following this whole thread but actually you were the first person to bring up DPS...
It follows logically from the thread title. The death of build originality is largely (but not entirely) due to cookie-cutter builds to maximize DPS at all costs.
Since not all builds for pvp require "dps" it doesn't logically follow. Some builds do spike damage, some heal, some CC, some disable, and only some "dps." There are cookie cutter builds for all of those. So no, it doesn't follow.
Yes, it does. There is no need for the DPS race to be the entire cause for it to logically follow that it be counted among the causes.
Its more then just DPS though... yes DPS optimization is a reality... it goes the other way as well on defense.
Why do we need to optimize spike... well because healing and defense has likewise been buffed.
You mentioned it yourself they added a engi trait for one that resets MW... I agree with this change... however in a ship that can take advantage of massive hull hit point pools. (not your escort) the amonut of spike needed to overcome 60+k of hull with a double shot of MW is not coming from another Engi EVER. You can't spike 120k... you just can't. Which is why you will never ever kill an engi cruiser with an engi escort.
Consoles that heal hull and shield on chance... (sci embassy consoles).
Reo Traits that mulitple passive shield regen by a factor of 4.
Rep traits that provide instant shield heals.
Massive resistances imparted by DOFFS.
Defensive Cool downs IGNORED thanks to doffs. (RSP/EPTx/TSS/Hazards/Delta/Omega/Tac Team... all at global)
High chance of complete debuff clears every 15s again thanks to doffs.
I am missing plenty I am sure... all of that type of stuff is power creep that forces people into specific builds.
When it first hit... the Vapor builds became very popular because they buffed the defense stuff first... and even full on hard hitting tac scorts where not doing enough dps to kill people... Spike needed to be first and formost... Cryptic nerfed the dreaded Double Tap... it existed in the game since day one... but all of a sudden it seemed unfair to people. It only got popular because Cryptic power creeped it into being the only sure way to kill someone. Nuke em all from orbit man.
Yes lately they have been creeping DPS again... but bottom line is ... its the creep on both sides of the coin that have forced people into very specific best of builds to combat the stupid high levels of both defense and offense.
This game has always been a game of Buffed or bust... Dmg is suck with out lots of buffs... and defense is just as bad with out.
What has been happening is those buffs have been getting stronger and stronger... so the idea of playing with a build that may forgo one of those OP buffs... is just crazy because with out it you are toast. Hence the death of most of the games varation in builds. (at least in any serious way)
A trait! That's what it was! DOH!
Maybe, but he's not killing me, either (no, I don't depend entirely on MW for survival. :rolleyes:). So, "tank vs hit and run" stalemate until one or both us involve teammates, at which point it is no longer a test of any individual build.
I honestly believe alot of actual good players that have enough of this game, have a original build laying around hwich were once viable, but being overshadowed by builds like FaW etc.
Mark my words, once this TRIBBLE FaW TRIBBLE is being nerfed, the real skilled ships(builds) will get close to the surface again.
Once FaW etc gets nerfed, tons of bad players hwich actually have no skill at all will suddenly find themselves scratching their head on how to do damage now. And they willl probably wait for the next (unintended) exploit to do damage and kills in a very easy way.
I bet half the community is simply sick of the easy play, I remember the times when PvP was about skill, and not a murderfest where everyone can participate in. Granted, even these faw builds have different skill level, and there is still a world of difference between a noob using it and a very experienced player.
I only laugh at those who actually defend this kind of silly gameplay.
Q'apla!
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I dont think thats the point. I bet all the good experienced vet tacs can make it work in a Engi or Sci too to the best of what is capable, most simply stopped pursuing at least the Engi/Escort format since those experienced players have compared all the classes with each other in the same ship(s) and builds.
What is your point? The point (i think) naz1911 and ultimatum tried to make is you simply aren't maximizing your damage like you would on a Tac. isnt the goal of an 'escort' to get rid of your opponents? Well tac is the way to go. Sci secondary, Engi last. That balance was a bit shifted back in the old days, but even THEN the engi would come out as the last priority for that Escort/Class combo.
Engi Tacs have always been silly, other then EPS and nadeon (Even questionable these days if its still of any benefit at all), i dont see why it is at all beneficial to run a Engi escort other then to gimp yourself and be a selfish tank at the sacrifice of damage.
I can understand a Sci escort, at least they ahve SOME form of tactical advantage, offensive SNB/Sensor scan with fleet deflector for 10% reduction on both. Yeah that can make the difference.
Even then, ask the best tacs out there, they probably all pursued Sci offensive at one time or another, a tac with well timed APA/GDF strike still outperforms any offensive Sciscort/scibop or whatever.
Cheers. The quality of PvPers since F2p is drastically reduced looking at these forums these days. lol
Well in PvP someone needs to die.
Honestly right now with a Aux to bat / DEM / Faw build... yes that engi cruiser is going to smoke you pretty quick. Not as quickly as perhaps a tac scort with the same setup as yours... but it won't take to much longer... and you will simply never even have a chance to do the same to him. A well played tac scort though would have the spike to take him down... of course if it drags out to long the tac scort is in trouble.
I think what I am saying is... playing to tie isn't a great build mantra. Also you are the one that said you don't want to rely on pugs for healing... I guess relying on them for DPS is ok though.
I am winking by the way cause I appreciate a little forum pvp. lmao
Elite Defense Stovokor
I think another problem with build diversity is the price. If you want to have a (new) competitive build, you need to get expensive doffs, gear, ships, reputation etc. It's not like it used to be when one simply levelled a character to 50, equipped white gear, trained some boff abilities and was ready to go. There are things I'd like to try, but I can't because I'm not going to spend hundreds of millions on builds that even on paper are a long shot. And if one is looking at team setups, this cost is amplified by a factor of five.
Just got home and read your posts Hanover2.
I condemned it based on hours of testing against and with some of the best players in the game.
Reading some of your posts since i got back, i just cant help but smile in a confused manner. I haven't seen a single valid argument in favour of eng escorts to convince me to start retesting and spending Zen/EC/Lobi to validate if i'm wrong and your right.
Some Key performance indicators for an escort in my opinion:
I personally can only see 1 area and Engi escort would be capable of passing and that is definitely not enough to convince me personally to test anything.
Can you hand on heart answer positively to the above?
Best quote i've seen in this thread.
Reference the title of this thread, should it not be in a PVE / RP related section? As i see it PvP is all about being better than your opponent(s). That's what motivates me to PvP. To try and be the best at team PvP. To the casual PvPer, maybe not......
Tac + SPike = Win
Tac + 4x DHC = fail
Sci + SnB = Support/win
Sci + SenScan = Support/win
Engi + Nadeon == Cheap Marion
Engi + EPS == No EptW
Again, context. It makes a huge difference if you're evaluating these things 1v1, 5v5, pug/premade, or against a stationary target that doesn't shoot back.
The only consistency in a PUG pvp is chaos, and "pick up" teams are the only viable option for me. Anything that requires me to depend on other players for something rather than do it for myself is irrelevant. No, I don't have APA, but I have two copies of APO and MW with a chance of rapid cooldown.
Go cloak + Tac. Full force + Disguise.
What more do you want?
Its perfectly possible to 15 - 0 your team in a pug. you doing all the killing.
Engi will just delay the inevitable. lol.