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Death of build originality?
illcadia
Member Posts: 1,412 Bug Hunter
Lately I've noticed that the community has made a definite shift from providing advice and suggestions for builds to a sort of blanket "You're doing it wrong, if you're [profession] flying [ship type], you need to be doing [cookie cutter build of the month".
Whenever someone asks for build help, or tries to make a build that isn't just a variation on the cookie cutter build of the month, the response seems to be almost universally negative. Nobody really seems interested in trying to make that build better, except by just scrapping everything and doing cookie cutter.
And frankly I've really been soured on PVP lately because we as a community seem to have lost that desire to create new builds, optimize underutilized skills into effectiveness, or otherwise go against the grain. I don't know if it's just collective fugue or tiredness- but it's rather disheartening when 9/10 posts in a thread are "You're stupid, your build is stupid, you should be running X instead", rather than trying to make a better capable version of that kind or style of build.
Maybe it's just me that's noticed this- idk, but I felt like maybe the community would benefit by thinking about the prevalence of this sort of behaviour, because it seems to have subtly crept up on everyone without them noticing they do it.
Whenever someone asks for build help, or tries to make a build that isn't just a variation on the cookie cutter build of the month, the response seems to be almost universally negative. Nobody really seems interested in trying to make that build better, except by just scrapping everything and doing cookie cutter.
And frankly I've really been soured on PVP lately because we as a community seem to have lost that desire to create new builds, optimize underutilized skills into effectiveness, or otherwise go against the grain. I don't know if it's just collective fugue or tiredness- but it's rather disheartening when 9/10 posts in a thread are "You're stupid, your build is stupid, you should be running X instead", rather than trying to make a better capable version of that kind or style of build.
Maybe it's just me that's noticed this- idk, but I felt like maybe the community would benefit by thinking about the prevalence of this sort of behaviour, because it seems to have subtly crept up on everyone without them noticing they do it.
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Notice it in game too.
Well at least the build aspect.
It's all the same.
FAW, DEM, scramble (normally doff'd), GW and lots of, TB, TBR, lots of pets.
Rinse and repeat.
Lately, I find myself experimenting with other things, though. Wondering just how badass a Sci cruiser I can make, do beams work on Escorts, and what does this power do? Others will mock me for some of the things I do with a ship. I don't care what they think since I am playing the game for my enjoyment not theirs.
People will always gravitate to whatever is perceived to provide the most successful return for the least effort. Whether or not this perception is the correct one. This will continue unabated right up to the point the Next Big Thing come along.
Question is, is that what are you going for? Are you running in a premade, trying to win tourneys and take your place at the top of the STO PvP world? Or do you just like to do some random matches in TD, tool around with fleeties, and maybe jump in some pugs? Then you can probably deviate somewhat. There will always be a delineation between builds that work and builds that don't work. We can, however, accept that "works/doesn't work" is not entirely binary and that a build can be less than completely optimal, but still work in a more casual setting.
Knowing what is in fact better is good knowledge though, and arguing the minutiae of that is what people in this forum do. If somebody is new to PvP or very casual, they don't need to be assaulted with all that right away. That's what things like the Hilbert Guide or DDIS' ship build and help thread are for. Maybe we just make an effort to not scare the newbs with PhD level theorycrafting right up front.
- either spending hours thinking about how to get 5% more out of a weird build that some guy just presented
- or ignore that weird build and spend 5 minutes explaining a default build that will be 50% better
(Numbers are made up, but you get the idea)
What is more likely to happen?
You are free to set-up your build anyway you like... I really blame this on the hybridization of the classes... when everyone can become self sufficient, eventually you end up with the exact same build.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Good points.
The game has pushed some mechanics to far ends of the spectrum at this point, you can spend a lot of time trying to reinvent the wheel or you can go for what works right now before the next season update comes and turns some things upside down.
Posters who post "you're doing it wrong" are most likely players who didn't even optimize the minutiae of their own builds, lack the ability to do so, and post that way because it makes them feel better about themselves.
The best optimizers I know very rarely even post their builds, or fully detailed optimizations of specific mechanics here on the forums.
Bottom line there are skills / items that are simply better then everything else.
Are you really going to tell someone to use a Covarient shield ?
Are you going to really explain to them why they should be super charging 1 or 2 sci skills with consoles instead of loading the standard p2w passive ones ?
Yes its easy to make the cookie cutter stuff... in general the skills and items that are a bit over powered aren't all that hard to aquire... so why try to explain how to aquire a bunch of very specialized stuff to pull off odder builds. That frankly are less and less effective every patch as Cryptic piles on the junk that works with the easy to get junk.
It's also expensive, and time consuming to test new weapon load outs, energy types, gear, etc.
For the risk averse or those with low resources they have a better chance of sticking with "standardized" build rather than veer off to attempt some oddball layout.
I'm pretty sure the best or most cutting edge builds are the one's never posted.
I agree with you about the vets not helping as much. I'm kinda disappointed too, because in the past they have all mostly been a great help.
I will say though, most premade vets don't use builds that new, inexperienced, or casual players would be able to pull off. If you watch their videos they're usually good at complementing their team and not as self sufficient as a pugging build. Lots of them don't even run TT because someone else on their team has it if they need. To do that in pugland would almost be suicide.
Also, we all got new rep, doffs, items, and ships. I'm sure lots of people are figuring out whats good and not and how to use and counter it all.
"I would switch X for Y because one of the trends at the moment is high amounts of Z and that will reduce how effective Z is against you"
Giving trends and reasons to changes as well as all the above and below that has been stated. Course I also think sometimes it's the question too.
If I ask for ways to improve a terrible build I can get a lot of answers.
If I ask for a way to improve an A class build then there's not really going to be much to improve.
If I ask for the best way to do X...well there is only one thing that can ever be the best.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
This is one of the major reasons STO PvP has always had such a large skill gap, even between premade teams. Typically one, maybe two fleets are driving the meta while the rest follow -- some, like other high level premades, more quickly, and others more slowly. This leaves most players in an unfavourable reactionary position, and when the current meta finally reaches the furthest branches of the player base, the new meta is typically being deployed.
Did you manage to miss the stickied The new PVP help and ship build thread?
It has over 1000 replies, over 100,000 views.
Here's why I don't "help" most people in their "help me" build threads.
A lot of people ask for "help" but they don't appear to actually have any particular goal in mind, they just want a "good" build - to me a "good" build has no meaning.
For me a build needs to fill a specific role, and then be optimized for the method of achieving that role. It usually takes me quite a bit of time of toying around with it to get there, and it's never really "finished" - no build is ever finished in a game that always changes like this one.
That's how I approach building my ships, and I wouldn't really be suited to giving advice for a generic "good" build - nor would my advice for a fully optimized mechanic make sense for people looking for more general advice.
So it's not always a case of not wanting to help.
Those are the ones that I punt on. I just send them to the Hilbert Guide or to the New PvP Help thread you linked. For some reason, I've gotten the reputation of being some killer PvP player in my fleet. Mostly because I win all our casual fleet PvP events due to being about the only one who comes here and pays attention to PvP at all. So, whenever somebody asks about PvP within the fleet, people direct them to me. I usually get exactly that, "How do I make a good PvP build on ship X". The answer is generally either "Ship X does not have a real niche in PvP, get another ship and come back" or I link them to the Hilbert Guide and an example build for their ship out of the New PvP Help thread.
If people come to me with more specific questions, like they already have a decent build and want to tweak their skill tree, or opinions on specific gear combinations, then I'll take the time to really dig in and look at it with them.
The issue on the specialized (not standard) builds can be a significant cost investment to the player... doffs can run into the 10's of millions of EC... quite quickly. I believe the AP Doff is still in the 40's, and Marion is in the mid 30's. I went out and purchased the Collectors Edition of STO from Amazon for the Red Matter Capacitor. So if the player isn't committed to the idea... then there is a fair chance that you maybe wasting your time. One fleet mate of mine, a really nice guy, but I refuse to work with him on builds any longer... he switches ships literally every time I see him he is in a different ship.
Personally, I found that most are really willing to talk about their build... and to be honest, if someone took the time and invested the EC, Dilithium, Credits, Zen, Lobi (whatever) to get a slightly better build.... then I wouldn't blame them for wanting to keep that little bit of an edge.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Right, that's about similar for me as well.
Thanks!
This is also a good example of what shockwave is saying too.
Johnny usually comes to me once he has a clear idea of what he's trying to achieve, and has most of the working parts already sorted.
It's at that point that I can really give advice on options to tweak for better performance to do x, y or z.
Absolutely.
Usually when someone asks me build advice, my first question is "How much are you able to spend?"
It's like looking into a mirror. Whoa :O
Elite Defense Stovokor
Lol I was thinking of you there, but to be fair last time we did casual PvP in the fleet it was the 2 experienced PvPers on the same team vs...well I'll just call it bad team balancing lol.
Still I'm always up for testing stuff with you if ever you want to try something out.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Perhaps, but ultimately it's a 5vs 5, not a 1vs 1 scenario, and unfortunately it's usually escorts/ cruisers online, if your lucky you might get an all out healer.
My speciality gives me the most versatility in most PUGS, Escort Tactical- Spike damage, but I have 2 other Sci toons and an engineer I play with too to heal and control
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
I pugged with my healer but I stopped doing that since everyone and I mean everyone and every ship has epte.I simply cant keep up the speed of my recluse with any ship so theres no reason to play as healer.
For example, let's say a tac is building a high damage output vesta build, trying to max out the tac damage boosts on sci powers. He asks for advice on which damaging powers to run (gravwell/tykens/tractorbeam/whatever), whether embassy consoles or spire consoles are better suited to that, and which sets he should run on his ship- and a bunch of people show up to the thread and tell him "If you want to run a sci ship play a sci char, you need subnuc, you can't do anything with a tac in a sciship blah blah blah"
Or we get the "Trying to make a high partigen sci power damaging build? No, no, you need to get in an escort and run DHC's and CRF 1 and APO3, that's how you'll be the best at damaging people with sci powers!" sort of troll responses.
I get that a lot of noobs have no real direction, and just want general improvements, but it seems like building under limitations to certain goals is a lost art. Want to make the best drain build? TRIBBLE you, DEM+FAW beam cruiser is where it's at!
I mean yes, obviously this sort of thing has happened for a long time, but it seems to have gotten particularly bad lately. I mean before help threads generally just got ignored, but now I'm seeing elements in the community being *actively hostile* to players trying to do new things, or things which are not cookie cutter builds.