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Heavy Beams
alexindcobra
Member Posts: 608
It is about time they come up with some real beam firepower. I know a lot of fans are tired of not being able to see their ship fire like in the shows or movies. Cruiser players are tired feeling like their ships are nerfed in comparison to escorts because of cannon fire having twice as much damage output. Its anoying to have your kills stolen by teammates in PVP just because his ship has higher damage output cannons, even though you gave most of the damage on the target. Another thing that doesn't look well is how weak cryptic made beams against little fighters and shuttles. On the show, a shuttle was only able to take two hits, with shields up, from a capital ship, and that was from a weaker alien ship and not the Enterprise D. The Enterprise D had demonstrated that it can take out shuttles and small fights with one shot. That must be a heavy beam type of array. There is no good reason it takes 5 hits to kill shuttles and fighters by beam arrays. Ship classes like the Mirranda, Constitution, and Excelsior don't have arrays, they have phaser banks. Larger modern cruisers, like Nebula, Galaxy, Intrepid, and Sovereign have phaser arrays. The Devs must also realize that the power output of phasers coming from the Exselsior's Phaser bank should not have the same power output of a phaser array which charges power from 100 or more banks into one bank.
With that said, heavy beams should come default with the ships that have arrays like the Nebula, Galaxy, Sovereign, or any ship physically displaying arrays on its surface. Heavy beams should a slightly slower firing sequence but have heavier damage per shot than the regular beams. Heavy beam's damage should be like the Dual Cannons. Dual heavy beams damag should be like Dual Heavy Cannons. Single heavy arrays should have the same arc as any other beam weapon because arrays follow the contours of the ship versus cannons. Dual heavy arrays should have same arc as current dual beams.
With that said, heavy beams should come default with the ships that have arrays like the Nebula, Galaxy, Sovereign, or any ship physically displaying arrays on its surface. Heavy beams should a slightly slower firing sequence but have heavier damage per shot than the regular beams. Heavy beam's damage should be like the Dual Cannons. Dual heavy beams damag should be like Dual Heavy Cannons. Single heavy arrays should have the same arc as any other beam weapon because arrays follow the contours of the ship versus cannons. Dual heavy arrays should have same arc as current dual beams.
Post edited by alexindcobra on
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This is the only problem with your suggestion. The arc of a weapon is based on it's damage potential. The more damage a weapon does, the smaller it's arc must be. Turrets have the lowest damage because they have the greatest arc (360 degrees), then arrays (250 degrees), then cannons (180 degrees), then dual beam banks (90 degrees) and finally dual cannons/dual heavy cannons at 45 degrees. Also, any weapons with less than 180 degree arcs are limited to forward hardpoints only.
I like the idea of heavy beams, and I think it'd be great if they used an effect similar to the TOS phaser arrays (where the beam is actually two beams very close to one another). I'm in agreement that cannons should not hold the highest damage output potential, as it greatly limits ships that want to go with a more classic beam setup (and those that cannot equip cannons). You just have to make them balanced.
Personally, I think we need two more types of weapons in this game:
1) Heavy Beam Arrays
45 degree firing arc
front only hardpoints
Equivalent damage to dual cannons (dual heavy cannons do the same damage as dual cannons, they simply have a different firing rate)
2) Wide Angle Beam Arrays
360 degree firing arc
Equivalent damage to turrets
With the insane power overcapping one can make use of in the current game meta mixed with BFAW eptw and APB cruisers can lay down the highest and hardest aoe dps
Beams arrays are the easiest weapons to use
Dual beam arrays are heavy beam arrays but due to their limited arc aren't as effective
Canon and the shows have very little input into how the game works at the core it is a game based off the shows not a simulator based around the shows if it did gameplay would be mostly ground very slow and evolve around exploration nobody wants to do that do they?
There is already a system of different grade beams for the same type and mark of beam. Common, Uncommon, Rare, Very Rare and so on. Each doing greater DMG than the latter.
If we were to follow logic...
There are 4 cannon type weapons.
There are 2 beam type weapons.
We could go with equivalency and say..
Beams = Turrets lowest damage highest arc
Dual beams = dual cannons highest damage lowest arc
Which leaves us lacking any comparison for single and dual heavy cannons. As a fix..
Beam array = same
Heavy beam array = Lesser arc higher damage.
Dual beam bank = same
Dual heavy beam bank = Same DPS as above higher per hit damage.
But that feels lame. I would rather we have something more reflective of what a beam ship does...
Beam array = same
Heavy beam array = same DPS higher single hit
Extended/Wide angle beam array = 360 beam with turret comparable damage
Dual beam banks = same.
This could at least even the field in terms of weapon choices. and since a heavy array maintains the established array dps the only real change is the amount of spike damage possible. Just like dc's and dhc's.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
so that means all dual cannons are heavy cannons?? and dual heavy cannons are somehow. Heavy HEAVY cannons?? saying a dual beam is a heavy beam is like saying a large apple is a Pineapple. totally different things.. a dual beam is just two beams firing.. dual heavy beams are like.. twice the bang... in around the output of a dual heavy cannon...
only 2 things i'd like to see and that may solve this isse anyway:
360 degree beams for builds that use DBB front
and make DBB fire 2 very narrow beams from the same hardpoint, similar to the TOS beam arrays.
in other words, DBB are already the "heavy beams" in this game...problem they have: they do not work at all with beam arrays together.
To take my argument from your view point.
Since cannons are hammers and beams are.. what... lots of arrows.... This analogy sucks.
Cannons are to brute force as beams are to carefully applied force.
So perhaps them we should have our 360 beams, and maybe something like a pinpoint array or something.
Less damage perhaps less arc but maybe a higher chance of applying a proc, or just an innate ACC boost.
Then again perhaps beam arrays should get an ACC boost like DHC's get a crit boost....
The real problem with most of these threads is that people either want a copy or something crazy op. And generally no one stops to think about what the intended purpose of these weapons is.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
So a vessel with eight Weapon Hardpoints would look like:
Forward Port Upper
Forward Port Lower
Forward Starboard Upper
Forward Starboard Lower
Rear Port Upper
Rear Port Lower
Rear Starboard Upper
Rear Port Lower
If you want cannons on your Forward Port Upper Weapon Hardpoint, go for it. Just be aware that it will only hit targets in the Forward Port Upper Arc..
I don't really like the idea though of a Heavy array. Now the idea of a 360 beam array would be nice. I really hate the turret firing cannons while the rest of my ship for curisers is phasers, dual phasers torpedos and the like.
I support the 360 beam array[and don't some beam arrays for shuttles have a 360 arc?], but not so much on the Heavy phaser array.
Just bring up the dual phaser banks in damage.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
But really... cruisers should have the option of mounting any weapon that an escort can mount. If, there is a mounting restriction, it should be on the escort, due to its generally smaller size. Putting the restriction on the cruiser makes no sense. The cruiser's poor turn rate, in comparison to the escort, is restriction enough.
No thank you. This is a mmo not a Star Trek simulator.
They are broadside reliant, because they lack firepower in their forward weapons and must compensate by bringing both front and rear weapons to bear simultaneously.
This is particularly frustrating with a Galaxy Exploration Retrofit. The whole point of its separation ability is to allow it greater maneuverability, but that maneuverability serves little purpose if, it is limited in its viable attack vectors.
It should be the player's option to determine their combat tactics, based on a ship's abilities. And restricting a cruiser's ability to mount DHC's, in my opinion, is unreasonable.
Game wise its treated as a 'system'. Since the gfx are supposed to choose the hard point closest to your target.
I have noticed on my avenger that my beams (which are only in aft slots) will fire from hard points on the saucer.
With turrets there are hard points at the fore and aft portions of most ships where it is fired from.
So in reality you aren't equipping a single turret, you're equipping a single turret system comprised of several individual turrets.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Massively Multiplayer Online. Not seeing any of those terms precluding the suggested feature, you dismissed with their invocation.
And that's why there isn't much Trek in Star Trek Online. People who played the Starfleet Command series and Bridge Commander, which STO stole most of the combat concepts from, can tell you that it was a great space combat system.
All you did was create a Heavy Beam which a Tac in an escort will use with Beam Overload. BTW they already do this with 1 Dual Beam Bank. The rest of their weapons will be dual heavy cannons and Turrets and 1 or 2 torps if they prefer that setup. Congratulations you just made them more OP. We'll then see BO hits for 100k. No thank you.
I do like the 360 degree beam arrays idea. I wouldn't use em personally. But it makes more sense then a cannon turret. I'm sure some people would find a use for them. They must have the same damage as the cannon turrets though, ie very low.
- Give more shield penetration
- Add proc % of special effect
I like broadsiding with my cruiser. I can't help it...
- Scotty, to La Forge
I could look up the numbers, but I'm not going to.
The Dual Cannon does 150 per shot and fires twice. It does 200 Damage per second.
The Dual Heavy Cannon does 300 per shot and fires once. It does 200 Damage per second. It also has an in built CritD modifier that's half as effective as a normal CritD modifier (10 instead of 20)
So by the logic in this game any Heavy weapon will do the same DPS as the normal version (with 10 more CritD) but do it in a single Volley rather than 3 or 4 for a Beam Array.
So yes I think using the same Rules that apply to Dual Heavy Cannons and the Elachi Single Heavy Cannon we could make Heavy Beam Arrays.
But understand they won't be as effective as standard Beam Arrays during Fire at Will, but definitely more effective during Overload (Still not as good as a DBB). Personally that could be an interesting Trade Off seeing people use Heavy Beam Arrays with Normal Beam Arrays.
If you want a Cruiser with DHCs buy a Battle Cruiser (The Avenger). In Game logic says Battle Cruisers get less Cruiser Commands but use DHCs.
I think proper Heavy Beam Arrays are a good idea, the ridiculous low arc Beam Arrays the OP suggested no, just use Dual Beams Banks instead. I also support Beam Turrets that are essentially Beam versions of the standard Turrets we have so people who use Dual Beams Banks Fore and Turrets rear can have a more unified looking ship. I also think Beam Turrets should not be able to Beam Overload but are capable of Fire at Will.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Further, I'd make heavy beams have a broadsiding arc only. 90 degrees each side of ship.
Make their power draw -12. That way cruisers and engineers can better utilise them with their power upkeep/drain resist abilities when running 8 of them.
Let escorts have the highest dps, but cruisers with their massive power plants should have the hardest hitting weapons. I'd like to see that my cruisers have the punch a capital ship should.
I like the heavy beam array idea, sort of a counderpart to the DHC but not exactly since it's on the wide arc rather than the narrow arc, where the BA fires 4 shots, the HBA fires 2 that do twice the damage, so volley damage is higher but DPS is the same (possibly has increased proc rate).
Also add omnidirectional beam array. Having the same arc as turrets, it should also have a similar DPS.
At the same time rework beam abilities a bit. First off FAW is great and all, but FAW I actually lowers single target DPS slightly (not that it bothers me too much), but the main problem is the beamspam pisses off everything and with too many targets only succeeds in lightly scratching the paint by only tagging each one once or twice. Change it so that when FAW is active, one of the two beams from each array always goes to the primary target and there can only be 2-4 other ships as targets (though any number of fighters mines and torps). HBA would fire 3 shots with FAW
BO is great for spike damage, but again has DPS problems, depending on your build it can reduce DPS (depends how fast you recover that power). I'd actually love to see the spike and power usage drop just a bit but have it affect all arrays like FAW does, so when you hit BO every array gives a single large blast of a bit more damage than they usually give over their duration. Try to turn it into a better single target DPS like CRF is. (they could also just add another beam ability as the single target DPS, but there's already 6 beam abilities, speaking of which no idea what to say about target subsystem other than give SVs mark II instead of I)
Also there's special dual cannons: the quad cannons (taken from the defiant on DS9), as sort of the beam version of that (and similarly a unique item restricted to one a ship) I have a couple ideas.
First, inspired from ships like the Intrepid, Nova and Prometheus which have their dorsal saucer array bisected: the dual beam array. Has the same arc as a traditional array but in the side arcs has a bit lower DPS; at targets in the forward arc, however, it fires 2 beams doing slightly more damage than DBBs but also draws twice the power.
The second is inspired by this talk of a broadside cruiser: a beam array with damage more comparable to the cannon but can ONLY fire to the sides, it's missing the forward (or aft) 55 degree arc