Sorry, but everything you listed is usable by everyone. APO can only be used by Excelsior, Odyssey, Sovereign, Wells, Nova and Vesta.
I hate to break it to you, but most ships in the game, fleet level or otherwise, are more or less obsolete. As a rule, the current best ships all have a LT.CMDR that is of a different type than their CMDR station, assuming its not universal! And for most non escort/destroyer ships, that Lt. CMDR will usually be best used by a slotting a tac boff in them.
Other than the fed ships you listed, I can think of very few other fed ships that are worth using anymore. That's the reality of the game right now. You will say it shouldn't be that way, and I'd agree, but that doesn't change the way things are.
Why did I choose 50%? Because it's stronger than any other tac damage boosting ability, just like APO is stronger than any other sci or eng escape from holds ability.
FAW does more damage but not against a single target. Their damage is spread out to include what they do to mines, etc. I don't fear FAW boats unless they use that shield bypass rubbish. Then again, I fear escorts who shield bypass more than cruisers.
Why do i fly sci? Because I like the idea of sci ships, even if they are treated like the red-headed step children of the fleet.
Why did I choose 50%? Because it's stronger than any other tac damage boosting ability, just like APO is stronger than any other sci or eng escape from holds ability.
50% extra damage is more than twice as good as APO3. That's not just a little better, its like comparing a scimitar to a Galaxy.
FAW does more damage but not against a single target. Their damage is spread out to include what they do to mines, etc. I don't fear FAW boats unless they use that shield bypass rubbish. Then again, I fear escorts who shield bypass more than cruisers.
I wasn't referring to FAW boats, just pure broadsides with the occasional TS:E will do. In PvE my engi cruiser can orbit a target without needing to slow down, broadsiders really have maximum uptime on their weapons without needing to give up any defense. In PvP the engi looses out on damage for sure, but again, it has the most uptime on targets. If I have to fight a Bugship my engi cruiser will have far greater success than my tacscort.
Why do i fly sci? Because I like the idea of sci ships, even if they are treated like the red-headed step children of the fleet.
Lets look at that in more detail, what "idea" of flying a sci ship is it that appeals to you? And are you flying a Vesta, Wells, or recluse? Because all other sci vessels are more or less obsolete.
OK, let's say that it was 30% bonus to attack strength, 5% more than APO III. Escort pilots would be outraged. And rightfully so. If that ever eventuated, why should sci and eng pilots get a better damage dealing ability, even though tacs have the best hold breaker?
Why do I like sci? Because I liked the idea that they always tried for the scientific method before blasting stuff. As for the ships I fly, I fly Wells, Vesta, Nova, Intrepid and Nebula science ships. I'm not the biggest DPS dealer in the matches but I hold my own.
I agree with the OP. APO does far too much offensively, defensively, and on to of it, grants insane immunities that negate huge chunks of CC in this game.
OK, let's say that it was 30% bonus to attack strength, 5% more than APO III. Escort pilots would be outraged. And rightfully so. If that ever eventuated, why should sci and eng pilots get a better damage dealing ability, even though tacs have the best hold breaker?
You are so wrong...
If there was such a sci ability most players would rejoice, because they could now build uber death machines with both APO and this new sci power. That you didn't immediately see this makes me think you're not a DPS focused player (which you go on to say farther down).
Here's the thing, EVERY ship needs to be able to do damage. The way the game is set up a pure tank, CC, or healer is nearly useless, premade PvP aside. I prefer the current design, where all ships are expected to keep up some damage, sadly its a game design philosophy that has left behind a lot of the older ships (looking at you galaxy-x). You say APO is too good, so take it. Its not like say, the Rom boffs with 2 OP space traits that only Roms can use. Anyone can use APO If they want to. My own sci trans bomber does not have APO, I preferred to get by with higher level Dispersal patterns.
Why do I like sci? Because I liked the idea that they always tried for the scientific method before blasting stuff. As for the ships I fly, I fly Wells, Vesta, Nova, Intrepid and Nebula science ships. I'm not the biggest DPS dealer in the matches but I hold my own.
What you describe is not STO. We were told part of STO was going to be like that. But like so many things we were told....
I think what really fuels your point of view is the way CC is handled in the current game. Ask what Sci was like a few seasons ago. Grav Wells that would grab and nearly take off all your HP. VM that completely shut down a ship. It was out of control.Could they have balanced it out properly? I want to say yes but Cryptic has show a poor track record the times it tries to balance things. Just look at what happened with EPtX? Their solution was to make EPtE last 30 seconds and completely break the big ship feel of the game.
Edit: I should also add that CC sci boff powers would be a lot more useful in the PvE game if the NPCs were more than just huge HP punching bags. Better AI would lead to players needing more than just DPS, leading to more balanced builds.
We'll have to agree to disagree but I will thank you for a good civil debate. In the times when I don't see eye to eye with people I still appreciate well thought out civil discussion. Cheers.
I hate to break it to you, but most ships in the game, fleet level or otherwise, are more or less obsolete. As a rule, the current best ships all have a LT.CMDR that is of a different type than their CMDR station, assuming its not universal! And for most non escort/destroyer ships, that Lt. CMDR will usually be best used by a slotting a tac boff in them.
Other than the fed ships you listed, I can think of very few other fed ships that are worth using anymore. That's the reality of the game right now. You will say it shouldn't be that way, and I'd agree, but that doesn't change the way things are.
My Fleet Excelsior strongly disagrees with you...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
APO is not that special and I dont see it needing a nerf, I use it for escape, as a damage buff meh. If you are specced into tractor beams APO stutters and does not give you full tractor resist so a stop, start, stop, start effect can be achieved IF you want to spec into that, I use APO with polarize hull in those situations will we need PH nerfing for the grappler next ?
Its like a surreal soap opera here, people want x nerfed then when it happens a few weeks down the line they realise its affected something else making that OP and again another nerf request is added to the rather long nerf list.
When your build is Op will you request it be nerfed ? I suspect not !
When I look at the abilities for each of the three classes, I get this kind of impression.
Engineering - Major focus on buffing and healing, minor focus on damage and hindering.
Science - Major focus on debuffing and hindrance, minor focus on healing.
Tactical - Major focus on damage dealing, minor focus on debuffing.
I'm sure people will correct me if they feel I'm wrong, however that's how I see things.
Enter Attack Pattern Omega. The power that breaks all the rules using wizardry and shenanigans.
To my understanding, an attack pattern comprises of the captain giving the order to the helm who then navigates the ship through a standardised course, one that has been recognised to achieve a particular effect. Effects include moving the ship in to an attack posture, moving the ship in an evasive fashion, etc. It does not involve pouring polymorph potion in to the engine. It does not involve using the force on the ship. Nor does it involve slipping The One Ring on one of the manifolds. Yet for some reason APO has magical effects.
I can completely understand how it can speed up the ship and result in higher turning as it's plausible that a part of APO is pumping more power through the engines. I'm full agreeance with this.
I can agree with the boost to damage as it is a manoeuvre that places the ship in an attacking posture. For the same reason I can understand the defensive bonus. I personally think that the bonus is too high for something that places the ship in an aggressive mode, but I can live with that.
BUT......
It breaks tractor beams. I can understand how polarising the hull of the ship can help you break free of a tractor beam. How does plotting a course do this, too?
It breaks the grappler. How does plotting a course change remove something that has latched on to the hull?
It frees you from the graviton pulse, heavy graviton beam and gravitic anchor. How does turning your ship release you from an intense localised gravity effect?
It protects you from subspace snare. How does the direction of the ship stop you from being teleported?
It cleans the chroniton torpedo effect. How does the destination of a ship clean up a time dilating effect?
Magic, that's how. Even if you did give a ship polymorph potion, The One Ring and use the force I think that a ship using APO could do more. It gives you the benefit of Polarise Hull and certain parts of Auxilliary to Dampeners plus a whole lot more, wrapped in to one neat package. It cleans more potent debuffs than any science power and is one of the prime reasons why escorts are so OP.
In real world terms, APO is like being stuck in a traffic jam and turning your steering wheel left, left, right, right and then finding yourself teleported to your destination.
Please Devs, make this ability more realistic.
And now I present to you... Escort pilot rage!! Just read the comments below.
APO shouldnt be nerfed, Tacteam or Beta/delta needs a buff.
I know it is horrifically off the main topic but doesn't this depend upon how much power a holographic energy source produces in relation to a hologram? I mean we already know that a holographic weapon is capable of having lethal effects on real matter, if a holographic warp core can produce enough holographic power to power a holographic phaser array to the same degree that a real warp core can power a real phaser array why shouldn't it have just enough effect on a real ship as a real phaser array?
I was being sarcastic...
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
From the very first post, this sounds a lot like another 'OMG nerf 'scorts I got 'sploded!1!!!" thread. It is just taking the form of an attack on APO.
However, let's assume that this really is a thread about APO and how it is too powerful for one Bridge Officer to handle. I see how one would think that APO might be OP...but I'd say they were wrong. As I read this thread, it seems like the main argument against APO is the "immunity" or maneuverability that it gives...
I agree with the OP. APO does far too much offensively, defensively, and on to of it, grants insane immunities that negate huge chunks of CC in this game.
Let's explore the list of how many things make up this "huge chunk of CC" and then explore how many powers can counter those.
Controls: Tractor Beam, Repulsors, Warp Plasma, Theta Radiation, Yellowstone Tetryon Plasma, Metreon Gas (not often used, tho), Gravitic Anchor, Heavy Graviton Beam, Graviton Pulse, Grappler, Gravity Well (with or without doff), Subspace Snare, Chroniton torps/mines, Nukara Webs Mines, Romulan Singularity Jump, lucky phaser engine proc, draining engines to zero power,... I'm sure I'm missing some, feel free to add.
Now how many powers do we have to counter all those? We have: Polarize Hull (tractors and such), Hazard Emitters (plasmas and such), Aux2Damp (Repulsor, Grav Well), and let's leave off Omega for now.
Ohhh...bummer. Now we are just left with Web Mines, Singularity Jump, Chronitons, Gravitic Anchor, Heavy Grav Beam, Grav Pulse, lucky phaser procs, and engine drain builds. Still, that's enough to hold many players for...well...at least a good 60 seconds. Without APO, players would be held indefinitely (and a really good sci knows how to hold someone even if they have APO3 up...and it stinks being on the receiving end of that, lol).
Now, all that said, APO is not OVERPOWERED. However, it is a VERY POWERFUL and useful option for anyone with the ability to slot it. One reason why so many have it in PvP is because it does counter a lot of the spam and CC that is out there. This "magical ability" is not an "I-WIN" button, though. But if Omega bothers you so much, you have 3 options.
1) Don't PvP. This option is not preferred, as I always like to encourage others to enjoy the wonderful and enjoyable aspects of teamwork while pewing at other players.
2) If you think it's OP, then get it. Then you'll have an "OP" build and rule the queues. And you'll be lol'ing at all who oppose you.
3) Learn how to control properly. Control is about timing. Throwing a tractor on someone with APO or Polarize up is just dumb and wasteful. Time your controls with the target's cooldowns. When APO stops, grab them then! You'll have at least 10-15 seconds to tractor them, grav well them, Singularity Jump them, etc. Coordinate with your team for further debuffing and control. Also, if you really just want it off quicky, use your Subnuke...it removes that darned ol' Omega and any other speed/defense buff your foes may have. Or...you could always find a way to turn off their engines or disable their ship. APO does nothing against holds if they are dead in the water.
I agree with the OP except i believe it should lower accuracy not increase it
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Okay, you suggest we should "get real"... let's. As I understand your argument we can approach it from one of two standpoints. Star Trek Canon and real world physics. Star Trek Canon is, IMO, an empty line of discussion as ST Canon has changed much over the years and what works well for a Movie/TV/Book experience won't work for an MMORPG experience (and the vice is certainly versa).
Neither real world physics nor canon are relevant. Of course it's all "magic", but there's magic that makes sense in its own terms and magic that breaks its own internal fantasy rules.
It will be noticed that there are descriptions of the abilities that "make sense" - i.e. they are given some sort of rationale within a strictly circumscribed fantasy world. It's not as if, when you hit the info for an ability, it just says "hey, it's magic". Some attempt has been made to miniaturize and compress space and time, and to propose advanced physics, and to give explanations and rationales, so that there's some sense of "realism" about the whole thing. It's in these terms that APO doesn't fit, for it does more than any fancy movement pattern ought to be able to do, in comparison to the other, equally fantastic abilities.
And then there's game balance.
The OP is quite right that a fancy movement pattern should not be able to do all those things in terms of the limits set internally by the fantasy world; and in balance terms, APO is an always has been somewhat OP.
Neither real world physics nor canon are relevant. Of course it's all "magic", but there's magic that makes sense in its own terms and magic that breaks its own internal fantasy rules.
It will be noticed that there are descriptions of the abilities that "make sense" - i.e. they are given some sort of rationale within a strictly circumscribed fantasy world. It's not as if, when you hit the info for an ability, it just says "hey, it's magic". Some attempt has been made to miniaturize and compress space and time, and to propose advanced physics, and to give explanations and rationales, so that there's some sense of "realism" about the whole thing. It's in these terms that APO doesn't fit, for it does more than any fancy movement pattern ought to be able to do, in comparison to the other, equally fantastic abilities.
And then there's game balance.
The OP is quite right that a fancy movement pattern should not be able to do all those things in terms of the limits set internally by the fantasy world; and in balance terms, APO is an always has been somewhat OP.
Minus one little bitty thing,
it is an ATTACK pattern. So what does the word attack mean to you? What about when it comes into play with a pattern?
The OP is using a rational argument, had his argument been about an Evasive pattern.
An attack pattern though is a predetermined set of circumstances that can alert the entire bridge crew.
So if i yell out attack Pattern Sigma it alerts my crew to:
Slightly increase speed, and come in at a 90 degree angle. Fire 4 Torpedoes and 3 bursts from the forwards weapons, then come about and fire 4 burst from the weapons and2 more torpedoes.
This is an Attack pattern therfore it functions pretty much like it should.
If it was JUST Evasive pattern omega it would be turn tail run away in a specific style pattern.....
There ya go lesson learned so come at it from another angle and maybe ill buy your story.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Enter Attack Pattern Omega. The power that breaks all the rules using wizardry and shenanigans.
To my understanding, an attack pattern comprises of the captain giving the order to the helm who then navigates the ship through a standardised course, one that has been recognised to achieve a particular effect. Effects include moving the ship in to an attack posture, moving the ship in an evasive fashion, etc.
Attack Patterns may conceptually be about movement in the movies/series. In STO, however, it's just a game mechanic. Like Attack Pattern Beta. What does a resistance debuff look like, in terms of movement?! It doesn't, is the point.
It breaks tractor beams. I can understand how polarising the hull of the ship can help you break free of a tractor beam. How does plotting a course do this, too?
Actually, your reasoning is a bit of a strawman: first you insist on Attack Patterns being solely about manoeuvring (which it isn't), then you ask how 'plotting a course' can make you break free of a tractor beam.
And even as a strawman, the example is pretty weak, as it's quite imaginable that moving some burst-power to the egines means you can break free of tractor beams. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that's pretty canon, too.
There's magic and then there's completely unplausible magic. APO falls in to the latter category.
shuttles tractoring a galaxy class ship is magic too.... the game is full of magic. oh ya that's right.. it's a game. -.- there is more things than this that doesn't fall into the realm of reality.
Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
Attack Pattern Omega (APO) is the game's only true super power. It's the power that does way too much, way too well. It needs an adjustment.
Firstly, what is an attack pattern? Well, based on the Star Trek series (those wonderfully entertaining shows that this game is based on) attack patterns were flight paths that were punched in to achieve a combat objective. Basically, you're turning the ship's steering wheel in order to position yourself better to a) put the ship in an attack posture, b) put the ship in a defensive posture, c)......z).
For turning the space steering wheel APO sure has some amazing abilities. It can...
Add to your Damage strength for 15 sec -- Fully understandable as you're being put in to an attack posture
Add to your Damage resistance for 15 sec -- Understandable as it's a combat manoeuvre.
Add to your Flight Speed strength for 5 sec -- This is like saying that plotting a course in your GPS will make your car travel faster. I can live with this, though.
Add to your Flight Turn Rate strength for 5 sec -- This is iffy, but let's imagine that performing a complex manoeuvre puts the helm in a hyper-focused state that allows them to turn faster. I'll go along with that
Gives you Immunity to Movement Debuffs for 15 sec -- Huh? Plotting a course stops tractor beams, warp plasma and theta radiation from affecting you? That's like saying that if you get stuck in a traffic jam you can turn your wheel left, left, right, left and press the brake three times to allow yourself (and only yourself) to become completely unaffected by traffic. Completely defies any logic and reason.
Gives you Immunity to Disable Debuffs for 15 sec -- Again, right, left, right, right and turning the radio on and off stops photonic shockwaves from affecting you. Miraculous!!
Adds to your Defense strength for 5 sec -- Believable as your course can make you harder to hit.
Gives you Immunity to Teleport for 15 sec -- Words fail me with this one. Did the person who designed this ability hit their head before deciding to add this?
By using 2 APOs or DOffs you can have an APO active every 30 seconds. This means that a ship can be immune to almost any decent sci or eng offensive power for 50% of the game. This is not right.
APO is a tactical ability. It should give you defensive bonuses and offensive bonuses with a bit of movement buff thrown in. It should NOT allow you to bypass almost every single decent science and engineering offensive power there is. That is really going too far.
What would the best solution be? Remove the immunity from movement debuffs. Replace it with "reduces the magnitude of movement debuffs". Remove the immunity from disables. Replace it with "Removes disables". This would mean that APO would need to be able to be triggered when you're disabled. Remove Immunity from teleport as that's just plain nonsensical.
I'd love other peoples' thoughts on this. If you're an escort pilot who refuses to look objectively at anything that could make your magic build that little less special, please move on to the next thread.
I remember reading almost the same post a few months back. Copy and paste or just "another APO nerf" thread ?
Anyway, it seems you are complaining from a pvp point of vue. For pve, apo is usefull. A lot. Mostly because of the CC immunity.
For pvp... wait, there is a pvp content in this game ? Wow, that's new. Anyway, I don't think APO is the most unbalanced thing in pvp...
With the latest GW effect upgrade, I think we need at least one BOFF ability to counter all the CC anti-movement spam. I was in a recent 5v5 match where my entire team was locked down with chained gravity wells, tractor beams, TSE's, Graviton Pulse, etc... it was pretty bad. My ship was the only one that could fend off part of the attacks, but once APO ran out, my ship was focus fired and promptly died.
STO also needs ways to neutralize AoE effects like GW and tractors -- perhaps by changing Charged Particle Burst into an AoE anti-particle-effect neutralizer? CPB is pretty useless right now, so transforming it into an anti-GW neutralizer would be a welcome change.
It does, since it makes using Tractor Beams almost pointless vs competent Escorts in pvp. Polarize Hull already grants tractor beam immunity so IMO this is not needed and gives tactical captains (or Science or Engineer non-free ships with extra LTCommander or Commander tactical slots) yet another advantage.
It also gives Tactical an easy movement immune that Science or Engineer ships don't really have, unless they are non-free ships with extra LTCommander or Commander tactical slots.
It does, since it makes using Tractor Beams almost pointless vs competent Escorts in pvp. Polarize Hull already grants tractor beam immunity so IMO this is not needed and gives tactical captains (or Science or Engineer non-free ships with extra LTCommander or Commander tactical slots) yet another advantage.
It also gives Tactical an easy movement immune that Science or Engineer ships don't really have, unless they are non-free ships with extra LTCommander or Commander tactical slots.
Polarize hull only works against tractor beams. It has no effect on the numerous other hold types available (TSE, Graviton Pulse, Gravity Well, Gravitic Anchor, etc).
Polarize hull only works against tractor beams. It has no effect on the numerous other hold types available (TSE, Graviton Pulse, Gravity Well, Gravitic Anchor, etc).
You're right, but surely you don't think one single power should give immunity to so many things?
There should never be a one-power-beats-all scenario. Immunities and protections should be spread out over numerous powers, not one. When building a ship you should be forced to choose between your level of defence vs your level of defence, not just use one ability to deal with it all.
The obvious solution would be to remove the CC immunity form APO, after removing CCs from the game entirely. They are by the very aspect of space and starships stupid in the first place.
Key here is that APO is expensive (1 needs a Lt.Cmdr. slot and 2/3 need a Cmdr. which unless you Alpha Strike there are better abilities) and has a long CD, unless you care to waste very valuable DOFF slots. So the high cost already balances out the effect, most ships that focus on other abilities can still equip 2 APO, but mostly that means sacrificing there 1 Lt.Cmdr. and 1 Cmdr. tac slots and the fact that some of the stronger other profession ships allow 1 copy of APO if they have 1 Lt.Cmdr. tac which does buff all dmg, including Eject Warp Plasma and Grav Well really is a neat trade off.
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Great... this again... can we just leave it? Please?
Attack Pattern Omega has a movement buff like Emergency Power to Engines, turn rate buff like Auxiliary Power to Inertial Dampeners, crowd control immunity and damage resistance like the previous power and Polarize Hull, disable immunity like the active period of Engineering Team, and a flat bonus to evasive chance like Evasive Maneuvers. It's essentially five powers in one and only takes up one ability slot. This power alone is what makes Escorts so durable, which in turn caused the uproar over Cruisers being redundant in PvE.
Comments
I hate to break it to you, but most ships in the game, fleet level or otherwise, are more or less obsolete. As a rule, the current best ships all have a LT.CMDR that is of a different type than their CMDR station, assuming its not universal! And for most non escort/destroyer ships, that Lt. CMDR will usually be best used by a slotting a tac boff in them.
Other than the fed ships you listed, I can think of very few other fed ships that are worth using anymore. That's the reality of the game right now. You will say it shouldn't be that way, and I'd agree, but that doesn't change the way things are.
Why did I choose 50%? Because it's stronger than any other tac damage boosting ability, just like APO is stronger than any other sci or eng escape from holds ability.
FAW does more damage but not against a single target. Their damage is spread out to include what they do to mines, etc. I don't fear FAW boats unless they use that shield bypass rubbish. Then again, I fear escorts who shield bypass more than cruisers.
Why do i fly sci? Because I like the idea of sci ships, even if they are treated like the red-headed step children of the fleet.
More comments in RED
OK, let's say that it was 30% bonus to attack strength, 5% more than APO III. Escort pilots would be outraged. And rightfully so. If that ever eventuated, why should sci and eng pilots get a better damage dealing ability, even though tacs have the best hold breaker?
Why do I like sci? Because I liked the idea that they always tried for the scientific method before blasting stuff. As for the ships I fly, I fly Wells, Vesta, Nova, Intrepid and Nebula science ships. I'm not the biggest DPS dealer in the matches but I hold my own.
Comments in RED
We'll have to agree to disagree but I will thank you for a good civil debate. In the times when I don't see eye to eye with people I still appreciate well thought out civil discussion. Cheers.
DEM, EP2W, TT1, APB, BOL3
Ok, you died.
Why did you only use Omega again?
My Fleet Excelsior strongly disagrees with you...
***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
Its like a surreal soap opera here, people want x nerfed then when it happens a few weeks down the line they realise its affected something else making that OP and again another nerf request is added to the rather long nerf list.
When your build is Op will you request it be nerfed ? I suspect not !
APO shouldnt be nerfed, Tacteam or Beta/delta needs a buff.
I was being sarcastic...
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
From the very first post, this sounds a lot like another 'OMG nerf 'scorts I got 'sploded!1!!!" thread. It is just taking the form of an attack on APO.
However, let's assume that this really is a thread about APO and how it is too powerful for one Bridge Officer to handle. I see how one would think that APO might be OP...but I'd say they were wrong. As I read this thread, it seems like the main argument against APO is the "immunity" or maneuverability that it gives...
Let's explore the list of how many things make up this "huge chunk of CC" and then explore how many powers can counter those.
Controls: Tractor Beam, Repulsors, Warp Plasma, Theta Radiation, Yellowstone Tetryon Plasma, Metreon Gas (not often used, tho), Gravitic Anchor, Heavy Graviton Beam, Graviton Pulse, Grappler, Gravity Well (with or without doff), Subspace Snare, Chroniton torps/mines, Nukara Webs Mines, Romulan Singularity Jump, lucky phaser engine proc, draining engines to zero power,... I'm sure I'm missing some, feel free to add.
Now how many powers do we have to counter all those? We have: Polarize Hull (tractors and such), Hazard Emitters (plasmas and such), Aux2Damp (Repulsor, Grav Well), and let's leave off Omega for now.
Ohhh...bummer. Now we are just left with Web Mines, Singularity Jump, Chronitons, Gravitic Anchor, Heavy Grav Beam, Grav Pulse, lucky phaser procs, and engine drain builds. Still, that's enough to hold many players for...well...at least a good 60 seconds. Without APO, players would be held indefinitely (and a really good sci knows how to hold someone even if they have APO3 up...and it stinks being on the receiving end of that, lol).
Now, all that said, APO is not OVERPOWERED. However, it is a VERY POWERFUL and useful option for anyone with the ability to slot it. One reason why so many have it in PvP is because it does counter a lot of the spam and CC that is out there. This "magical ability" is not an "I-WIN" button, though. But if Omega bothers you so much, you have 3 options.
1) Don't PvP.
2) If you think it's OP, then get it. Then you'll have an "OP" build and rule the queues. And you'll be lol'ing at all who oppose you.
3) Learn how to control properly. Control is about timing. Throwing a tractor on someone with APO or Polarize up is just dumb and wasteful. Time your controls with the target's cooldowns. When APO stops, grab them then! You'll have at least 10-15 seconds to tractor them, grav well them, Singularity Jump them, etc. Coordinate with your team for further debuffing and control. Also, if you really just want it off quicky, use your Subnuke...it removes that darned ol' Omega and any other speed/defense buff your foes may have. Or...you could always find a way to turn off their engines or disable their ship. APO does nothing against holds if they are dead in the water.
Is it powerful? Yes. Is it Overpowered? No.
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Neither real world physics nor canon are relevant. Of course it's all "magic", but there's magic that makes sense in its own terms and magic that breaks its own internal fantasy rules.
It will be noticed that there are descriptions of the abilities that "make sense" - i.e. they are given some sort of rationale within a strictly circumscribed fantasy world. It's not as if, when you hit the info for an ability, it just says "hey, it's magic". Some attempt has been made to miniaturize and compress space and time, and to propose advanced physics, and to give explanations and rationales, so that there's some sense of "realism" about the whole thing. It's in these terms that APO doesn't fit, for it does more than any fancy movement pattern ought to be able to do, in comparison to the other, equally fantastic abilities.
And then there's game balance.
The OP is quite right that a fancy movement pattern should not be able to do all those things in terms of the limits set internally by the fantasy world; and in balance terms, APO is an always has been somewhat OP.
Minus one little bitty thing,
it is an ATTACK pattern. So what does the word attack mean to you? What about when it comes into play with a pattern?
The OP is using a rational argument, had his argument been about an Evasive pattern.
An attack pattern though is a predetermined set of circumstances that can alert the entire bridge crew.
So if i yell out attack Pattern Sigma it alerts my crew to:
Slightly increase speed, and come in at a 90 degree angle. Fire 4 Torpedoes and 3 bursts from the forwards weapons, then come about and fire 4 burst from the weapons and2 more torpedoes.
This is an Attack pattern therfore it functions pretty much like it should.
If it was JUST Evasive pattern omega it would be turn tail run away in a specific style pattern.....
There ya go lesson learned so come at it from another angle and maybe ill buy your story.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Attack Patterns may conceptually be about movement in the movies/series. In STO, however, it's just a game mechanic. Like Attack Pattern Beta. What does a resistance debuff look like, in terms of movement?! It doesn't, is the point.
Actually, your reasoning is a bit of a strawman: first you insist on Attack Patterns being solely about manoeuvring (which it isn't), then you ask how 'plotting a course' can make you break free of a tractor beam.
And even as a strawman, the example is pretty weak, as it's quite imaginable that moving some burst-power to the egines means you can break free of tractor beams. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that's pretty canon, too.
Tl;dr: I'm good with leaving APO 'as is.'
shuttles tractoring a galaxy class ship is magic too.... the game is full of magic. oh ya that's right.. it's a game. -.- there is more things than this that doesn't fall into the realm of reality.
Firstly, what is an attack pattern? Well, based on the Star Trek series (those wonderfully entertaining shows that this game is based on) attack patterns were flight paths that were punched in to achieve a combat objective. Basically, you're turning the ship's steering wheel in order to position yourself better to a) put the ship in an attack posture, b) put the ship in a defensive posture, c)......z).
For turning the space steering wheel APO sure has some amazing abilities. It can...
Add to your Damage strength for 15 sec -- Fully understandable as you're being put in to an attack posture
Add to your Damage resistance for 15 sec -- Understandable as it's a combat manoeuvre.
Add to your Flight Speed strength for 5 sec -- This is like saying that plotting a course in your GPS will make your car travel faster. I can live with this, though.
Add to your Flight Turn Rate strength for 5 sec -- This is iffy, but let's imagine that performing a complex manoeuvre puts the helm in a hyper-focused state that allows them to turn faster. I'll go along with that
Gives you Immunity to Movement Debuffs for 15 sec -- Huh? Plotting a course stops tractor beams, warp plasma and theta radiation from affecting you? That's like saying that if you get stuck in a traffic jam you can turn your wheel left, left, right, left and press the brake three times to allow yourself (and only yourself) to become completely unaffected by traffic. Completely defies any logic and reason.
Gives you Immunity to Disable Debuffs for 15 sec -- Again, right, left, right, right and turning the radio on and off stops photonic shockwaves from affecting you. Miraculous!!
Adds to your Defense strength for 5 sec -- Believable as your course can make you harder to hit.
Gives you Immunity to Teleport for 15 sec -- Words fail me with this one. Did the person who designed this ability hit their head before deciding to add this?
By using 2 APOs or DOffs you can have an APO active every 30 seconds. This means that a ship can be immune to almost any decent sci or eng offensive power for 50% of the game. This is not right.
APO is a tactical ability. It should give you defensive bonuses and offensive bonuses with a bit of movement buff thrown in. It should NOT allow you to bypass almost every single decent science and engineering offensive power there is. That is really going too far.
What would the best solution be? Remove the immunity from movement debuffs. Replace it with "reduces the magnitude of movement debuffs". Remove the immunity from disables. Replace it with "Removes disables". This would mean that APO would need to be able to be triggered when you're disabled. Remove Immunity from teleport as that's just plain nonsensical.
I'd love other peoples' thoughts on this. If you're an escort pilot who refuses to look objectively at anything that could make your magic build that little less special, please move on to the next thread.
Anyway, it seems you are complaining from a pvp point of vue. For pve, apo is usefull. A lot. Mostly because of the CC immunity.
For pvp... wait, there is a pvp content in this game ? Wow, that's new. Anyway, I don't think APO is the most unbalanced thing in pvp...
APO is fine. Find another horse to beat.
STO also needs ways to neutralize AoE effects like GW and tractors -- perhaps by changing Charged Particle Burst into an AoE anti-particle-effect neutralizer? CPB is pretty useless right now, so transforming it into an anti-GW neutralizer would be a welcome change.
It also gives Tactical an easy movement immune that Science or Engineer ships don't really have, unless they are non-free ships with extra LTCommander or Commander tactical slots.
Polarize hull only works against tractor beams. It has no effect on the numerous other hold types available (TSE, Graviton Pulse, Gravity Well, Gravitic Anchor, etc).
You're right, but surely you don't think one single power should give immunity to so many things?
There should never be a one-power-beats-all scenario. Immunities and protections should be spread out over numerous powers, not one. When building a ship you should be forced to choose between your level of defence vs your level of defence, not just use one ability to deal with it all.
I suppose they were able to kill you with those holds and you weren't able to hurt them at all?
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Attack Pattern Omega has a movement buff like Emergency Power to Engines, turn rate buff like Auxiliary Power to Inertial Dampeners, crowd control immunity and damage resistance like the previous power and Polarize Hull, disable immunity like the active period of Engineering Team, and a flat bonus to evasive chance like Evasive Maneuvers. It's essentially five powers in one and only takes up one ability slot. This power alone is what makes Escorts so durable, which in turn caused the uproar over Cruisers being redundant in PvE.