So either you get a slight dps buff with a little hold ignore and a big cooldown, or you can slot an otherwise devastating attack ability.
This is where I headed in some of my builds. I suspect though that the original post was built from PVP experience. That's where you see bug ships spinning on a dime over and over.
So either you get a slight dps buff with a little hold ignore and a big cooldown, or you can slot an otherwise devastating attack ability.
Yes, it does take a Lt Commander slot at best but don't forget that it boosts so many other abilities. It makes BO, FAW CRF and CSV so much more dangerous in addition to the boost that regular weapons fire gets, plus the speed and turn boost, plus the defence boost PLUS the hold immunity.
When you look at it, the damage boost is tactical, the movement buff is engineering and the hold immunity is science. It's pretty much every career rolled in to one, and apart from the few non-tac ships that have Lt Cmdr tac slots, it's limited to one profession. Science and Engineering don't have abilities that combine the best of all careers, why should tacs?
Is there another ability in the game (BOFF ability, not captain ability) that does so much? It really is the Rolls Royce of BOFF abilities.
To be honest, I've always wondered about APO. It seems like it does too many things all at once. At the very least I've always been curious about the design decision behind making it as potent as it is.
Yes, it does take a Lt Commander slot at best but don't forget that it boosts so many other abilities. It makes BO, FAW CRF and CSV so much more dangerous in addition to the boost that regular weapons fire gets, plus the speed and turn boost, plus the defence boost PLUS the hold immunity.
When you look at it, the damage boost is tactical, the movement buff is engineering and the hold immunity is science. It's pretty much every career rolled in to one, and apart from the few non-tac ships that have Lt Cmdr tac slots, it's limited to one profession. Science and Engineering don't have abilities that combine the best of all careers, why should tacs?
Is there another ability in the game (BOFF ability, not captain ability) that does so much? It really is the Rolls Royce of BOFF abilities.
When you start from a faulty premise (eng is only enrgy buffs, sci is only hold immunities) you end up with a faulty conclusion (that tacs gets neither)....
If anything the three are broken up as
Tac Weapons powers/ movement
Eng Fabrication / energy
Sci: Exotic projection
When you start from a faulty premise (eng is only enrgy buffs, sci is only hold immunities) you end up with a faulty conclusion (that tacs gets neither).
I can see that you're resistant to the idea that APO could be OP.
Can you tell me of a non-tac ability that is as potent as APO? When we see what you consider to be as strong as it we may understand your position a little better.
I can see that you're resistant to the idea that APO could be OP.
Can you tell me of a non-tac ability that is as potent as APO? When we see what you consider to be as strong as it we may understand your position a little better.
A2B has a similar effect in engineering, boosting both speed defense and weapons power..... if anything the issue is sci lacking as many multi-faceted skills as is with eng and tac.
A2B has a similar effect in engineering, boosting both speed defense and weapons power..... if anything the issue is sci lacking as many multi-faceted skills as is with eng and tac.
I can see that A2B is powerful, but you forget that it comes at the cost of Aux. Almost every sci ability is reduced in potency, as are quite a lot of eng abilities. If someone hits you with any form of power drain then your aux goes offline, completely denying you the use of many abilities. APO has no downside.
Yeah there isn't enough focus on constructive views presented. There's like a long line of one-line posters who always want to jump in and try to steer the direction into something else but that's ok.
I take it you missed my post in the long list of others, if this is the case here is a link
I can see that A2B is powerful, but you forget that it comes at the cost of Aux. Almost every sci ability is reduced in potency, as are quite a lot of eng abilities. If someone hits you with any form of power drain then your aux goes offline, completely denying you the use of many abilities. APO has no downside.
And while the movement is a temporary debuff in APO, it's not a break of the hold.... if the tractor is still active when APO cycles, or another hits you get stuck there just the same. It becomes pretty much useless if you are surrounded with too many potential holds....it's ore of a last ditch effort.
And while the movement is a temporary debuff in APO, it's not a break of the hold.... if the tractor is still active when APO cycles, or another hits you get stuck there just the same. It becomes pretty much useless if you are surrounded with too many potential holds....it's ore of a last ditch effort.
I am unsure if you're arguing for or against it... you are telling us, that you either need ANOTHER Tractor Beam (for example) OR too many people to negate its effects... isn't that a wee bit much for just one ability? That you essentially need to gang up on someone with APO or be loaded with at least 2 different Tractor Beams which in turn fill up space that could be used with other abilities to make APO "useless"?
And while the movement is a temporary debuff in APO, it's not a break of the hold.... if the tractor is still active when APO cycles, or another hits you get stuck there just the same. It becomes pretty much useless if you are surrounded with too many potential holds....it's ore of a last ditch effort.
OK, let's examine the differences between the two abilities.
APO is up for 15 seconds and has a 60 seconds CD. It's fair to say that you can have it up for 1/4 of any given battle if you hit it when the CD is over.
A2B has a 40 second cooldown and is up for 10 seconds. This, too, you can have up for a 1/4 of any given battle.
Now, let's look at the features.
Damage boost
APO yes
A2B yes
Defence boost
APO yes
A2B yes, although nowhere near APOs level
Movement boost
APO yes
A2B yes
Negative effect on your ship
APO no
A2B yes, no aux
Immunity to holds
APO yes
A2B no
Immunity to teleport
APO yes, if you have APO III
A2B no
Immunity to disable
APO yes, if you have APO III
A2B no
Level you can have the ability
APO Lt Cmdr
A2B Lt
So, you're saying that the fact that it takes a Lt Cmdr slot as opposed to a Lt slot makes up for the fact that you get:
A better defence boost
No negative effect on your ship
Immunity to holds
Immunity to teleport and disable (for APO III)
I'm sorry, but spending a Lt Cmdr slot as opposed to a Lt slot to get those benefits is WAY worth it. That's the best value out there. APO is a far better ability than A2B, no question about it.
I am unsure if you're arguing for or against it... you are telling us, that you either need ANOTHER Tractor Beam (for example) OR too many people to negate its effects... isn't that a wee bit much for just one ability? That you essentially need to gang up on someone with APO or be loaded with at least 2 different Tractor Beams which in turn fill up space that could be used with other abilities to make APO "useless"?
This. This +10. If you have APO then they better have heaps of stuff to beat it. Well said.
Okay, you suggest we should "get real"... let's. As I understand your argument we can approach it from one of two standpoints. Star Trek Canon and real world physics. Star Trek Canon is, IMO, an empty line of discussion as ST Canon has changed much over the years and what works well for a Movie/TV/Book experience won't work for an MMORPG experience (and the vice is certainly versa).
Form the standpoint of physics you have valid arguments re: APO but you skate right on by the absurdity of Tractor Beams, Grav Wells etc. Tractor Beams. What are they? Is it a beam of magnetic force? Sorry... in the REAL world of physics that will never be an option as it is in game. Magnetism, as a force, attenuates too rapidly no matter how much power you have behind it. Think of the big ol' magnet used in a junkyard to pick up cars. At full power it can hold the weight of a car. But if there is more than about a foot or two of distance between the magnet and the car the attraction is nearly non-existent. That puppy needs to be right down there next to it to reach out and grab it. Even the power of an entire nuclear fusion reactor would NOT allow you to reach out over 10K distance and grab something the size of a shuttle... much less a Starship. On top of which the ship will have to be constructed, primarily, of magnetically reactive materials. Both Canon and common sense says they won't be.
Gravity? Are we manipulating gravity with our "tractor beam"? Any Physicist would be happy to explain that gravity is the weakest force we know of. Moreover as we learn more and more about it it appears, less and less, to be any sort of "wave" energy form that can ever be manipulated that way. It takes an entire planet the size of the Earth to hold you down, for instance. And even at that you can, however briefly, break that hold by the power of your own legs. Some basketball players can break that hold very effectively (if briefly). The power of a Starship's engines, powered by a Matter/Antimatter reactor, should have no problems. We've seen them pull away from the Sun, itself... your ship would have to be generating a gravitational pull many times greater than the sun itself and that still won't work because you're going to have to concentrate it, somehow. If gravity is what some physicists believe that would never be possible. You COULD, conceivably, create something like a singularity but it wouldn't be very big, it's event horizon would be very small and close to the core and the first thing it would swallow would be the ship that created it. Unless you're a Kamikaze Starship Commander I don't think that's gonna work.
We have manipulated microscopic particles using lasers (photonic pressure) but that will never be viable on a macro level... only on a micro level.
Grapplers! Okay, now we're talking. You reach out with good old fashioned grappling lines and attach to the enemy ship and hold it. Except that the instant they hit full jets and yank hard to starboard they're going to A. Tear out the hooks, break the lines or otherwise break the grapple. B. Haul your little star traveling butt along with them or C. You're both going to become locked in a tug of war that will result in both your ships spinning around a common center and you BOTH will become incapacitated until the grapple is broken.
So there ya go... we can nerf APO in the spirit of being realistic... as long as you're okay with nerfing tractor beams and repulsor beams and grav wells, etc. to the same degree of "realism".
In all fairness Star Trek is FULL of ideas that are nice but will never exist because they violate the laws of physics. Transporters (as they work in Star Trek), Fighting, communicating or doing much of anything other than sitting back and enjoying the ride while traveling FTL. Etc. So why pick on just this one absurdity?
Physics rules! :P
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
Okay, you suggest we should "get real"... let's. As I understand your argument we can approach it from one of two standpoints. Star Trek Canon and real world physics. Star Trek Canon is, IMO, an empty line of discussion as ST Canon has changed much over the years and what works well for a Movie/TV/Book experience won't work for an MMORPG experience (and the vice is certainly versa).
...
In all fairness Star Trek is FULL of ideas that are nice but will never exist because they violate the laws of physics. Transporters (as they work in Star Trek), Fighting, communicating or doing much of anything other than sitting back and enjoying the ride while traveling FTL. Etc. So why pick on just this one absurdity?
Physics rules! :P
Very good response and a good read. How about we look at it from another perspective. One of game balance?
If you are to make any good use of your glass cannon, you need to buff the livid daylights out of it. Tact Team, Attack Patterns, Tactical Initiative: (half of these are available to basic ships of other classes, but TI is a captain's buff) for offense, the whole purpose of the escort. Emergency Power to Shields, Power to Structural, Reverse Shield Polarity: eng abilities to ensure the purpose of the cruiser (tanking). Hazard Emitters, Feed Back Pulse, Sensor Scan: sci abilities that bounce between offense and defense (balanced with the right skill and build). APO is just to make up for the escort's lack of ship as much as viral matrix is to make up for the science vessel's lack of guns.
Only 3 reasons why i have any escorts at all: A, half of my escorts are all of what my carrier group is, B, one of my few escorts is to muscle through the tougher STFs (ones where you get killed lot not matter what you are in), and C, because of mine layer patterns. But, to keep up with my time (and spend less time getting healed), I stick with my cruiser/ sci vessel battleships (tanks alot, and satisfactory DPS thanks to weap batteries, emergency power to weapons, tactical team, beam overload, torp spread/ high yeild, etc).
Very good response and a good read. How about we look at it from another perspective. One of game balance?
Excellent idea. From a standpoint of game balance, as someone who favors Tac but has Eng Capt's and has leveled and retired two Sci's and who has flown everything from BOP's to Cruisers to Sci ships and Carriers I find the tractor beams/grav wells/repulsors in the game, now, rather OP. APO, along with the other "hold breakers", balances things well enough, though, that I'm not prompted to complain as long as they don't buff the holds any further. A "hold" is not meant to be a weapon, in itself, but, rather, a means to assist the damage dealing by slowing or holding the target long enough for you to get in a few good shots. If you're talking game balance the one thing I DON'T want is a game where Sci's rule... this is a space shooter... pew pew should rule, always.
If they ever get around to making an honest Star Trek game that would be far less true... but then all of these discussions would be far less germaine as a true Star Trek game would more closely resemble something like Myst than any kind of first person shooter.:rolleyes:
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
Nothing needs nerfed, no APO or anything else. The trouble is that most things are out of balance. Engineering and sci and tac are all out of kilter and need sorting, not nerfing. Too much has been nerfed in this game reducing it to shooting fluffy ducks with pillows.
The solution isn't a nerf of anything, it's a complete redressing of the balance of the skills and abilities in the game itself, not just singling out one and screaming NERF IT.. And given APO is only really useful in PVP i would suspect you were getting it handed to you...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
"...Just repeat to yourself 'it's just show, I should really just relax..."
There are dozens of things in this game that my little sense, so let's pick on one that only certain players can use...
Ok then, Holographic fleet should be taken out because all of a suddenly, magicly, there are a several larger, more powerful ships, that do just as much damage as the real thing, which is physically impossible...
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Ok then, Holographic fleet should be taken out because all of a suddenly, magicly, there are a several larger, more powerful ships, that do just as much damage as the real thing, which is physically impossible...
I know it is horrifically off the main topic but doesn't this depend upon how much power a holographic energy source produces in relation to a hologram? I mean we already know that a holographic weapon is capable of having lethal effects on real matter, if a holographic warp core can produce enough holographic power to power a holographic phaser array to the same degree that a real warp core can power a real phaser array why shouldn't it have just enough effect on a real ship as a real phaser array?
I'm sure people will correct me if they feel I'm wrong, however that's how I see things.
Enter Attack Pattern Omega. The power that breaks all the rules using wizardry and shenanigans.
Can't tell of serious....
But if you insist on talking about space magic and how it shouldn't be in the game.... may I present you most of the sci powers and a good chunk of the engi ones as well?
As for powers that are as powerful as APO, I shall now list them!
EPtX: In particular EPtS and EPtE, both are insanely good, can be taken with an ensign slot, have complementary doffs. EPtE even breaks the feeling of big ship combat and moves STO squarely into fighter sim territory. If anything I'd say EPtE breaks STO more than other EPtX abilities. It was meant to be a getaway power, but making it last 30 seconds? Who thought that'd be a good idea?
RSP: negates alphas, team coordination, and overall makes ships that can chain them impossible to kill. Only takes a lt. power slot.
A2B: With the corresponding doffs it adds to defense and offense through power boosts, as well as bringing all boff abilities to the global CD or 30 seconds. Only takes a lt. power slot.
Tractor Beam: If you aren't ready for it, you will die. If you're ready for it, you will stll be greatly inconvenienced. I would say this is the best CC power in the game, if only because it only takes an ensign slot to use.
I will not go into detail of other sci abilities since my own sci is my third alt and these days keeping up properly with more than 2 is prohibitive for various reasons.
If you are to make any good use of your glass cannon, you need to buff the livid daylights out of it. Tact Team, Attack Patterns, Tactical Initiative: (half of these are available to basic ships of other classes, but TI is a captain's buff) for offense, the whole purpose of the escort. Emergency Power to Shields, Power to Structural, Reverse Shield Polarity: eng abilities to ensure the purpose of the cruiser (tanking). Hazard Emitters, Feed Back Pulse, Sensor Scan: sci abilities that bounce between offense and defense (balanced with the right skill and build). APO is just to make up for the escort's lack of ship as much as viral matrix is to make up for the science vessel's lack of guns.
I completely disagree. APO is one of the better survival abilities in the game as it's so versatile. It also does more when it comes to escaping holds than any other sci or eng power. Do you think that escort pilots would like it if all of a sudden there was either a sci or eng power that was Lt Cmdr slot or higher that gave you +50% damage? No, they'd scream bloody murder and go to great lengths to explain why that should be a tac power. Why, then, should tac get APO's break hold ability, one so superior to sci or eng?
As for lack of ship, well, escorts should have lack of ship. You can't expect them to have the best alpha strikes and DPS AND the best hull and shields. Well, I've come across many who would, but that's another matter.
"...Just repeat to yourself 'it's just show, I should really just relax..."
There are dozens of things in this game that my little sense, so let's pick on one that only certain players can use...
Ok then, Holographic fleet should be taken out because all of a suddenly, magicly, there are a several larger, more powerful ships, that do just as much damage as the real thing, which is physically impossible...
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I like flying sci better than anything else but I hate this ability as it's a) stupid and b) useless. Holographic ships? Where are they getting their power from? Also, they're useless in a fight. If anything they're just spam. Still, I don't think it appropriate to revamp that to a better power as sci has subnuc, and that thing is awesome.
Nothing needs nerfed, no APO or anything else. The trouble is that most things are out of balance. Engineering and sci and tac are all out of kilter and need sorting, not nerfing. Too much has been nerfed in this game reducing it to shooting fluffy ducks with pillows.
The solution isn't a nerf of anything, it's a complete redressing of the balance of the skills and abilities in the game itself, not just singling out one and screaming NERF IT.. And given APO is only really useful in PVP i would suspect you were getting it handed to you...
Amen. Mechanics takes an encompassing look to get it right.
I know it is horrifically off the main topic but doesn't this depend upon how much power a holographic energy source produces in relation to a hologram? I mean we already know that a holographic weapon is capable of having lethal effects on real matter, if a holographic warp core can produce enough holographic power to power a holographic phaser array to the same degree that a real warp core can power a real phaser array why shouldn't it have just enough effect on a real ship as a real phaser array?
Holographic warp cores powering holographic phasers? I don't think that's how it works lol.
I'm pretty sure the ship is just a hologram and the phaser it fires is some sort of energy ray that is actually created by the holo emitter. If it works as you suggest we all just became irrelevant as far as combat goes, we should jsut send in legions of holographic self replicating ships and call it a day.
Of course, in the game the holo fleets are weak NPCs that fire weak weapons and not so weak CC powers.
But if you insist on talking about space magic and how it shouldn't be in the game.... may I present you most of the sci powers and a good chunk of the engi ones as well?
As for powers that are as powerful as APO, I shall now list them!
EPtX: In particular EPtS and EPtE, both are insanely good, can be taken with an ensign slot, have complementary doffs. EPtE even breaks the feeling of big ship combat and moves STO squarely into fighter sim territory. If anything I'd say EPtE breaks STO more than other EPtX abilities. It was meant to be a getaway power, but making it last 30 seconds? Who thought that'd be a good idea?
RSP: negates alphas, team coordination, and overall makes ships that can chain them impossible to kill. Only takes a lt. power slot.
A2B: With the corresponding doffs it adds to defense and offense through power boosts, as well as bringing all boff abilities to the global CD or 30 seconds. Only takes a lt. power slot.
Tractor Beam: If you aren't ready for it, you will die. If you're ready for it, you will stll be greatly inconvenienced. I would say this is the best CC power in the game, if only because it only takes an ensign slot to use.
I will not go into detail of other sci abilities since my own sci is my third alt and these days keeping up properly with more than 2 is prohibitive for various reasons.
EPtX is only ensign. That means EVERY escort or sci ship can use it. Can every sci or cruiser use APO?
RSP is Lt. EVERY escort or sci can use it.
A2B gets better with DOFFs. So does APO!!! 3 Zemok Jenros and you have APO up for 50% of the time. Or if you have 2 Zemok Jenros and an APD you can have APO up for 50% of the time with an APD in between.
Tractor beam, every escort or cruiser can use it. I also think that escorts get the better deal with tractor beam as they can then punch through the single shield facing that is presented to them.
Sorry, but everything you listed is usable by everyone. APO can only be used by Excelsior, Odyssey, Sovereign, Wells, Nova and Vesta.
Holographic warp cores powering holographic phasers? I don't think that's how it works lol.
I'm pretty sure the ship is just a hologram and the phaser it fires is some sort of energy ray that is actually created by the holo emitter. If it works as you suggest we all just became irrelevant as far as combat goes, we should jsut send in legions of holographic self replicating ships and call it a day.
Of course, in the game the holo fleets are weak NPCs that fire weak weapons and not so weak CC powers.
I wasn't suggesting I knew how the whole thing works, it was simply a suggestion of how it might work given how it does seem a little far fetched that 1 warp core would power all the weapon systems for 4 ships, it was simply 1 concept out of many, many options within reason, within the IP...
I completely disagree. APO is one of the better survival abilities in the game as it's so versatile. It also does more when it comes to escaping holds than any other sci or eng power. Do you think that escort pilots would like it if all of a sudden there was either a sci or eng power that was Lt Cmdr slot or higher that gave you +50% damage? No, they'd scream bloody murder and go to great lengths to explain why that should be a tac power. Why, then, should tac get APO's break hold ability, one so superior to sci or eng?
APO doesn't add 50% extra damage. Exagerating does not help your opinion appear less silly.
As for lack of ship, well, escorts should have lack of ship. You can't expect them to have the best alpha strikes and DPS AND the best hull and shields. Well, I've come across many who would, but that's another matter.
I have an engi cruiser alt. Last I checked the DPS crown currently belongs to A2B beam cruisers. I get that you're upset at some perceived injustice, but doing a some actual playing will help get things straight.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I like flying sci better than anything else but I hate this ability as it's a) stupid and b) useless. Holographic ships? Where are they getting their power from? Also, they're useless in a fight. If anything they're just spam. Still, I don't think it appropriate to revamp that to a better power as sci has subnuc, and that thing is awesome.
Oddly enough Scis are the most valuable class in PvP, 5 scis are better than any other team composition. That said, I will agree with you that most sci boff powers are generally poorly thought out and designed. That is a flaw of the way CC is handled by the Cryptic engine. It was the same in Champions Online. CC is either way too powerfull or useless. I would even go so far as to say that most sci boff powers belong in engineering or tactical. Of course, I would also question the need to have tac, engi, and sci boffs, instead of boffs that could take any power. Its not liek we didn't see Geordi and O'brian change color shirts during the shows.
That said, if you can't stand sci boff abilities why are you in a sci vessel at all?
Comments
This is where I headed in some of my builds. I suspect though that the original post was built from PVP experience. That's where you see bug ships spinning on a dime over and over.
I dont mind.
We both know 'why' you are doing it, but that is neither here nor there, nor on topic.
.
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
Yes, it does take a Lt Commander slot at best but don't forget that it boosts so many other abilities. It makes BO, FAW CRF and CSV so much more dangerous in addition to the boost that regular weapons fire gets, plus the speed and turn boost, plus the defence boost PLUS the hold immunity.
When you look at it, the damage boost is tactical, the movement buff is engineering and the hold immunity is science. It's pretty much every career rolled in to one, and apart from the few non-tac ships that have Lt Cmdr tac slots, it's limited to one profession. Science and Engineering don't have abilities that combine the best of all careers, why should tacs?
Is there another ability in the game (BOFF ability, not captain ability) that does so much? It really is the Rolls Royce of BOFF abilities.
Mine Trap Supporter
When you start from a faulty premise (eng is only enrgy buffs, sci is only hold immunities) you end up with a faulty conclusion (that tacs gets neither)....
If anything the three are broken up as
Tac Weapons powers/ movement
Eng Fabrication / energy
Sci: Exotic projection
I can see that you're resistant to the idea that APO could be OP.
Can you tell me of a non-tac ability that is as potent as APO? When we see what you consider to be as strong as it we may understand your position a little better.
A2B has a similar effect in engineering, boosting both speed defense and weapons power..... if anything the issue is sci lacking as many multi-faceted skills as is with eng and tac.
I can see that A2B is powerful, but you forget that it comes at the cost of Aux. Almost every sci ability is reduced in potency, as are quite a lot of eng abilities. If someone hits you with any form of power drain then your aux goes offline, completely denying you the use of many abilities. APO has no downside.
I take it you missed my post in the long list of others, if this is the case here is a link
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=12491111&postcount=16
And while the movement is a temporary debuff in APO, it's not a break of the hold.... if the tractor is still active when APO cycles, or another hits you get stuck there just the same. It becomes pretty much useless if you are surrounded with too many potential holds....it's ore of a last ditch effort.
I am unsure if you're arguing for or against it... you are telling us, that you either need ANOTHER Tractor Beam (for example) OR too many people to negate its effects... isn't that a wee bit much for just one ability? That you essentially need to gang up on someone with APO or be loaded with at least 2 different Tractor Beams which in turn fill up space that could be used with other abilities to make APO "useless"?
OK, let's examine the differences between the two abilities.
APO is up for 15 seconds and has a 60 seconds CD. It's fair to say that you can have it up for 1/4 of any given battle if you hit it when the CD is over.
A2B has a 40 second cooldown and is up for 10 seconds. This, too, you can have up for a 1/4 of any given battle.
Now, let's look at the features.
Damage boost
APO yes
A2B yes
Defence boost
APO yes
A2B yes, although nowhere near APOs level
Movement boost
APO yes
A2B yes
Negative effect on your ship
APO no
A2B yes, no aux
Immunity to holds
APO yes
A2B no
Immunity to teleport
APO yes, if you have APO III
A2B no
Immunity to disable
APO yes, if you have APO III
A2B no
Level you can have the ability
APO Lt Cmdr
A2B Lt
So, you're saying that the fact that it takes a Lt Cmdr slot as opposed to a Lt slot makes up for the fact that you get:
A better defence boost
No negative effect on your ship
Immunity to holds
Immunity to teleport and disable (for APO III)
I'm sorry, but spending a Lt Cmdr slot as opposed to a Lt slot to get those benefits is WAY worth it. That's the best value out there. APO is a far better ability than A2B, no question about it.
This. This +10. If you have APO then they better have heaps of stuff to beat it. Well said.
Form the standpoint of physics you have valid arguments re: APO but you skate right on by the absurdity of Tractor Beams, Grav Wells etc. Tractor Beams. What are they? Is it a beam of magnetic force? Sorry... in the REAL world of physics that will never be an option as it is in game. Magnetism, as a force, attenuates too rapidly no matter how much power you have behind it. Think of the big ol' magnet used in a junkyard to pick up cars. At full power it can hold the weight of a car. But if there is more than about a foot or two of distance between the magnet and the car the attraction is nearly non-existent. That puppy needs to be right down there next to it to reach out and grab it. Even the power of an entire nuclear fusion reactor would NOT allow you to reach out over 10K distance and grab something the size of a shuttle... much less a Starship. On top of which the ship will have to be constructed, primarily, of magnetically reactive materials. Both Canon and common sense says they won't be.
Gravity? Are we manipulating gravity with our "tractor beam"? Any Physicist would be happy to explain that gravity is the weakest force we know of. Moreover as we learn more and more about it it appears, less and less, to be any sort of "wave" energy form that can ever be manipulated that way. It takes an entire planet the size of the Earth to hold you down, for instance. And even at that you can, however briefly, break that hold by the power of your own legs. Some basketball players can break that hold very effectively (if briefly). The power of a Starship's engines, powered by a Matter/Antimatter reactor, should have no problems. We've seen them pull away from the Sun, itself... your ship would have to be generating a gravitational pull many times greater than the sun itself and that still won't work because you're going to have to concentrate it, somehow. If gravity is what some physicists believe that would never be possible. You COULD, conceivably, create something like a singularity but it wouldn't be very big, it's event horizon would be very small and close to the core and the first thing it would swallow would be the ship that created it. Unless you're a Kamikaze Starship Commander I don't think that's gonna work.
We have manipulated microscopic particles using lasers (photonic pressure) but that will never be viable on a macro level... only on a micro level.
Grapplers! Okay, now we're talking. You reach out with good old fashioned grappling lines and attach to the enemy ship and hold it. Except that the instant they hit full jets and yank hard to starboard they're going to A. Tear out the hooks, break the lines or otherwise break the grapple. B. Haul your little star traveling butt along with them or C. You're both going to become locked in a tug of war that will result in both your ships spinning around a common center and you BOTH will become incapacitated until the grapple is broken.
So there ya go... we can nerf APO in the spirit of being realistic... as long as you're okay with nerfing tractor beams and repulsor beams and grav wells, etc. to the same degree of "realism".
In all fairness Star Trek is FULL of ideas that are nice but will never exist because they violate the laws of physics. Transporters (as they work in Star Trek), Fighting, communicating or doing much of anything other than sitting back and enjoying the ride while traveling FTL. Etc. So why pick on just this one absurdity?
Physics rules! :P
Very good response and a good read. How about we look at it from another perspective. One of game balance?
Only 3 reasons why i have any escorts at all: A, half of my escorts are all of what my carrier group is, B, one of my few escorts is to muscle through the tougher STFs (ones where you get killed lot not matter what you are in), and C, because of mine layer patterns. But, to keep up with my time (and spend less time getting healed), I stick with my cruiser/ sci vessel battleships (tanks alot, and satisfactory DPS thanks to weap batteries, emergency power to weapons, tactical team, beam overload, torp spread/ high yeild, etc).
Excellent idea. From a standpoint of game balance, as someone who favors Tac but has Eng Capt's and has leveled and retired two Sci's and who has flown everything from BOP's to Cruisers to Sci ships and Carriers I find the tractor beams/grav wells/repulsors in the game, now, rather OP. APO, along with the other "hold breakers", balances things well enough, though, that I'm not prompted to complain as long as they don't buff the holds any further. A "hold" is not meant to be a weapon, in itself, but, rather, a means to assist the damage dealing by slowing or holding the target long enough for you to get in a few good shots. If you're talking game balance the one thing I DON'T want is a game where Sci's rule... this is a space shooter... pew pew should rule, always.
If they ever get around to making an honest Star Trek game that would be far less true... but then all of these discussions would be far less germaine as a true Star Trek game would more closely resemble something like Myst than any kind of first person shooter.:rolleyes:
The solution isn't a nerf of anything, it's a complete redressing of the balance of the skills and abilities in the game itself, not just singling out one and screaming NERF IT.. And given APO is only really useful in PVP i would suspect you were getting it handed to you...
***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
There are dozens of things in this game that my little sense, so let's pick on one that only certain players can use...
Ok then, Holographic fleet should be taken out because all of a suddenly, magicly, there are a several larger, more powerful ships, that do just as much damage as the real thing, which is physically impossible...
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
I know it is horrifically off the main topic but doesn't this depend upon how much power a holographic energy source produces in relation to a hologram? I mean we already know that a holographic weapon is capable of having lethal effects on real matter, if a holographic warp core can produce enough holographic power to power a holographic phaser array to the same degree that a real warp core can power a real phaser array why shouldn't it have just enough effect on a real ship as a real phaser array?
Can't tell of serious....
But if you insist on talking about space magic and how it shouldn't be in the game.... may I present you most of the sci powers and a good chunk of the engi ones as well?
As for powers that are as powerful as APO, I shall now list them!
EPtX: In particular EPtS and EPtE, both are insanely good, can be taken with an ensign slot, have complementary doffs. EPtE even breaks the feeling of big ship combat and moves STO squarely into fighter sim territory. If anything I'd say EPtE breaks STO more than other EPtX abilities. It was meant to be a getaway power, but making it last 30 seconds? Who thought that'd be a good idea?
RSP: negates alphas, team coordination, and overall makes ships that can chain them impossible to kill. Only takes a lt. power slot.
A2B: With the corresponding doffs it adds to defense and offense through power boosts, as well as bringing all boff abilities to the global CD or 30 seconds. Only takes a lt. power slot.
Tractor Beam: If you aren't ready for it, you will die. If you're ready for it, you will stll be greatly inconvenienced. I would say this is the best CC power in the game, if only because it only takes an ensign slot to use.
I will not go into detail of other sci abilities since my own sci is my third alt and these days keeping up properly with more than 2 is prohibitive for various reasons.
I completely disagree. APO is one of the better survival abilities in the game as it's so versatile. It also does more when it comes to escaping holds than any other sci or eng power. Do you think that escort pilots would like it if all of a sudden there was either a sci or eng power that was Lt Cmdr slot or higher that gave you +50% damage? No, they'd scream bloody murder and go to great lengths to explain why that should be a tac power. Why, then, should tac get APO's break hold ability, one so superior to sci or eng?
As for lack of ship, well, escorts should have lack of ship. You can't expect them to have the best alpha strikes and DPS AND the best hull and shields. Well, I've come across many who would, but that's another matter.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I like flying sci better than anything else but I hate this ability as it's a) stupid and b) useless. Holographic ships? Where are they getting their power from? Also, they're useless in a fight. If anything they're just spam. Still, I don't think it appropriate to revamp that to a better power as sci has subnuc, and that thing is awesome.
Amen. Mechanics takes an encompassing look to get it right.
Holographic warp cores powering holographic phasers? I don't think that's how it works lol.
I'm pretty sure the ship is just a hologram and the phaser it fires is some sort of energy ray that is actually created by the holo emitter. If it works as you suggest we all just became irrelevant as far as combat goes, we should jsut send in legions of holographic self replicating ships and call it a day.
Of course, in the game the holo fleets are weak NPCs that fire weak weapons and not so weak CC powers.
EPtX is only ensign. That means EVERY escort or sci ship can use it. Can every sci or cruiser use APO?
RSP is Lt. EVERY escort or sci can use it.
A2B gets better with DOFFs. So does APO!!! 3 Zemok Jenros and you have APO up for 50% of the time. Or if you have 2 Zemok Jenros and an APD you can have APO up for 50% of the time with an APD in between.
Tractor beam, every escort or cruiser can use it. I also think that escorts get the better deal with tractor beam as they can then punch through the single shield facing that is presented to them.
Sorry, but everything you listed is usable by everyone. APO can only be used by Excelsior, Odyssey, Sovereign, Wells, Nova and Vesta.
I wasn't suggesting I knew how the whole thing works, it was simply a suggestion of how it might work given how it does seem a little far fetched that 1 warp core would power all the weapon systems for 4 ships, it was simply 1 concept out of many, many options within reason, within the IP...
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