With all the canon discussion, don't forget from the TOS episode The Changeling it would take 450 Photon Torpedoes to take out the Enterprise's shields.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
What I would really like for torpedoes is a bonus to shield penetration inversely proportional to the amount of shields remaining on the target. For example, at 100% shields the torpedo shield penetration would be at its current level. At 10% shields, the torpedo shield penetration would be at 75%.
...<SNIP>...
Unfortunately this idea doesn't work too well in practice due to the different shield types and capacities already present. For example, a regenerative shield with half the capacity of a covariant shield would enjoy the same level of protection against torpedoes even though it would implode on a basic cannon alpha strike.
A better suggestion would be to allow kinetic bleed through damage to increase once shields drop below a fixed number... perhaps 5% per 100 shield points below 2000 shield strength (arbitrary value). This results in 100% bleed through damage at 0 shields, 95% bleed through at 100 shields, etc...
I have read all the posts thus far and have come to the conclusion that one thing not really discussed yet would most likely fix this issue. We need to fix the crew mechanics. The one thing that has not been mentioned thus far are the effects that torpedoes have on crew values. They have stats that are designed to specifically reduce the amount of able/alive crew. What I suggest is that the crew mechanics be reworked and tie in ALL of a ships abilities to the crew. Everything including weapon, DOFF, and BOFF cooldowns would be effected by a reduction in crew. This would have the effect of weakening a ships capabilities thus making it an easier target. When a torp hits a ship a general disruption of crew activities, however brief, would not only be canon but would also be great for game mechanics. I think this would also be a better overall fix for the game than just a torp fix (whine whine whine), then a energy fix(whine whine whine), boff power nerf (whine whine whine), etc. The heart of the problem is the crew.
Example 1 BOFF Powers:
Any torp impact causes a momentary cycle in the various powers on the quick bar. (ie. you can't initiate ready powers for like .5 secs etc.)
The length of this cycle would be determined by the current crew level. (ie. crew level at none may cause the delay to be 5 secs instead of .5)
Example 2 Weapons Cycles:
Any torp impact would cause the same effect as above but (perhaps) without the scaling based on crew level (or not as severe scaling.)
In any case I agree that the shield/torp relation should be at least slightly rethought.
Example 3 Torps and Shields.
The amount of shields you have remaining vs the torp should scale as far as bleedthough HOWEVER, the damage in question that DOES bleed through would not be so much hull damage as crew damage. It has been seen many times in all the various series that having reduced shields does in fact result in more ship shaking, thus more crew injury/incapacitation. Otherwise I feel that the shield resistances don't need a lot of tweaking.
In closing, by fixing the crew mechanic and actually acknowledging the fact that a ship NEEDS a crew to do all the fancy stuff it is capable of. You could in fact fix multiple other problems INCLUDING torps being underpowered by using them for what they were always intended for; knocking the COMPLETE TRIBBLE out of your opponent.
Why not convert torpedo launchers over to how the omega plasma torpedo launcher works? But give them like a 3 or 4 shot clip for photons, quantums, and plasmas, and 2 shot for tricobalt and Chroniton, and transphasic?
Or, an alternative to that is make them function much like energy weapons now. For example, a phaser beam array fires multiple shots per activation. Perhaps 1 activation is 3 shots from non destructable/ non HYT plasma, and 2 from others.
And remove the stupid global cool down they all share. As of right not its pointless and just gimps them more. Cannons out preform torpedos, yet don't share a GCD, so why should torps?
I would then like each ship to have a limited ammo. Instead of buying a Torpedo tube, what you buy is torpedo Ammo.
Then they need a massive damage boost to compensate.
THERE WE HAVE IT, A PROPER, AWESOME TORPEDO!
And yes, the damage to shields should scale.
100% shield : 10% bleed through,The problem here is they already bleed thru shields, but it seems the damage bleeding thru is first reduced by the 75% kinetic resistance
10% shield : 50% bleed through
They are most definitely in need of some worth while change.
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but here was my idea on the subject.
Instead of the whole consumable ammo angle, I think perhaps all torpedoes should be subject to some amount of splash damage, at least to the firing ship (lest people start using them to grief their teammates). It has a pretty canon justification, as it has been mentioned at some points in the shows that using torpedoes at too close a range risks damaging the firing ship. With this in place, then the automatic shield resistance to kinetic torpedo weapons could be substantially reduced.
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but here was my idea on the subject.
Instead of the whole consumable ammo angle, I think perhaps all torpedoes should be subject to some amount of splash damage, at least to the firing ship (lest people start using them to grief their teammates). It has a pretty canon justification, as it has been mentioned at some points in the shows that using torpedoes at too close a range risks damaging the firing ship. With this in place, then the automatic shield resistance to kinetic torpedo weapons could be substantially reduced.
No bringing grenades to a knife-fight, eh?
I'm not sure whether splash damage is a good idea or not. Realistic, yes. Good for gameplay??? Don't have an answer for that one.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but here was my idea on the subject.
Instead of the whole consumable ammo angle, I think perhaps all torpedoes should be subject to some amount of splash damage, at least to the firing ship (lest people start using them to grief their teammates). It has a pretty canon justification, as it has been mentioned at some points in the shows that using torpedoes at too close a range risks damaging the firing ship. With this in place, then the automatic shield resistance to kinetic torpedo weapons could be substantially reduced.
Torps do have splash damage now -- it's a very small radius but still present (around 1km). I see this when I launch shrapnel torps with HYT or TS quantum salvos. The shrapnel torpedoes end up getting destroyed by the quantum torps AoE instead of dealing damage.
BTW, can we PLEASE get a shrapnel torp overhaul as well? I know, wishful thinking...
With all the canon discussion, don't forget from the TOS episode The Changeling it would take 450 Photon Torpedoes to take out the Enterprise's shields.
You forget that all TOS episodes were illusions created by Q to test Kirk and his crew. All those stories actually never happened...
I have read all the posts thus far and have come to the conclusion that one thing not really discussed yet would most likely fix this issue. We need to fix the crew mechanics. The one thing that has not been mentioned thus far are the effects that torpedoes have on crew values. They have stats that are designed to specifically reduce the amount of able/alive crew. What I suggest is that the crew mechanics be reworked and tie in ALL of a ships abilities to the crew. Everything including weapon, DOFF, and BOFF cooldowns would be effected by a reduction in crew. This would have the effect of weakening a ships capabilities thus making it an easier target. When a torp hits a ship a general disruption of crew activities, however brief, would not only be canon but would also be great for game mechanics. I think this would also be a better overall fix for the game than just a torp fix (whine whine whine), then a energy fix(whine whine whine), boff power nerf (whine whine whine), etc. The heart of the problem is the crew.
Example 1 BOFF Powers:
Any torp impact causes a momentary cycle in the various powers on the quick bar. (ie. you can't initiate ready powers for like .5 secs etc.)
The length of this cycle would be determined by the current crew level. (ie. crew level at none may cause the delay to be 5 secs instead of .5)
Example 2 Weapons Cycles:
Any torp impact would cause the same effect as above but (perhaps) without the scaling based on crew level (or not as severe scaling.)
In any case I agree that the shield/torp relation should be at least slightly rethought.
Example 3 Torps and Shields.
The amount of shields you have remaining vs the torp should scale as far as bleedthough HOWEVER, the damage in question that DOES bleed through would not be so much hull damage as crew damage. It has been seen many times in all the various series that having reduced shields does in fact result in more ship shaking, thus more crew injury/incapacitation. Otherwise I feel that the shield resistances don't need a lot of tweaking.
In closing, by fixing the crew mechanic and actually acknowledging the fact that a ship NEEDS a crew to do all the fancy stuff it is capable of. You could in fact fix multiple other problems INCLUDING torps being underpowered by using them for what they were always intended for; knocking the COMPLETE TRIBBLE out of your opponent.
I seem to recall Geko saying that he considered crew mechanics from launch un-fun and wanted completely different crew mechanics.
Personally?
I would look at this:
Crew would "go red" indicating that they're disabled. And would "go black" indicating that they're killed, which only happens as the result of "releasing" on death on difficulties higher than normal. Crew regenerates (from red but not black) as long as your ship is active.
Ships would not explode on death and would only explode when released. Allied ships could resurrect ships in space like on ground. You can self-resurrect on a timer. More crew equals a shorter timer.
Active crew would allow for a number of out of combat functions, including self-rezzing without a release. Boarding parties would cause crew to temporarily go red.
Overall, crew would be a bit like a mana resource but largely relevant to mid-combat self-resurrection, ability to summon vendors/repair/support, and maybe accuracy bonuses.
This would apply to players.
But I think this would help balance out the ship types somewhat if cruisers have a much more convenient/shorter self-rezzing mechanism due to higher crew, since the cooldown would be triggered based on active crew size.
Now, in terms of torpedoes? I think a big missing feature is aggro control. Aggro should favor crits and large hits per strike over rapid fire, assuming DPS over time is equal. Torpedos should be a superior tanking mechanism. I think this should probably involve some other buffs and adjustments, probably which favor enhanced survivability for ships that have more aggro, based on the ship's natural defensive multipliers like shield multiplier and hull. This would favor higher hull ships using torpedoes.
Commenting solely on the new digression: that would be a nice touch!
Back on topic ...
I still hugely support a Torpedo and Damage Overhaul.
As for the torpedo, as well as buying a launcher (not for much though, don't worry) you would buy the Ammo.
To compensate for limited ammo, increase the damage of the Standard Torpedo Mk X to about or even over 5000 Dmg. (Obviously the others would be different in the respective ways)
That means, you only fire a torpedo if you really have too! (Although I believe same side PvP should be exempt from this rule)
Torpedoes would then be what they were designed to be, almost last resort weaponry that really, really, packs a punch.
Hopefully this may clarify some aspects to my previous post :
Torpedos do need an overhaul.
They need to be re-scaled properly. I would also like to see the cool "flame" thingies that come off. Maybe even travel slower ... MAYBE.
Now, in terms of torpedoes? I think a big missing feature is aggro control. Aggro should favor crits and large hits per strike over rapid fire, assuming DPS over time is equal. Torpedos should be a superior tanking mechanism. I think this should probably involve some other buffs and adjustments, probably which favor enhanced survivability for ships that have more aggro, based on the ship's natural defensive multipliers like shield multiplier and hull. This would favor higher hull ships using torpedoes.
I like the notion that getting hit with a torp ought to incite a strong response
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Having hull plating a higher energy resistance makes sense. Energy weapons in essence attack the molecular structure of a material, trying to break bonds either by heat, radiation, antiparticle, whatever.
In the 20th century, people designed space crafts and stations so that radiation, gamma rays, etc can be blocked by a super thin sheet layer of material. I would make sense that in the 24th century, material engineering would be such that ship hulls would be super resistant, knowing (and not) what space would throw at them.
Hell, they can make an antimatter warp core... not wait... a SINGULARITY core! Don't tell me they can't design a hull plate super energy resistant.
That said, I think it would make sense to keep shields highly resistant to kinetic attacks but give hulls a higher energy resistance. Meaning, strip down shields with lasers then torpedo away to victory.
Note that I'm actually shooting myself in the foot with my beam cruiser but hey...
"Starship captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way. The secret is to give them what they need, not what they want."
- Scotty, to La Forge
Make them a hell lot of more powerful but give them some kind of Ammo-mechanic which takes up Inventory Space...
Smaller Ships could carry not much, 2 Dozen maybe 3, while larger Ships (Cruisers) can load a lot of 'em.
Escorts would still pwn, tank and science the everlasting sh*t out of everything but they get a small kick to the shin.
Torpedocarrying Cruisers would get one or two new abilities, something like "Beam Over Torpedos" or "Ferry Weapons" which could use the same animation like Boarding Parties but obviously targeted at Friendlies.
Science Ship would get the middle ground in carrying Capacity but also some Torpedo-related abilities, all obviously with a science twist... Tachyon-emitting detonators (AoE Tachyon Beam) or something like that.
you mean I can't beam a photon torpedo in someone's ship?
you mean I can't beam a photon torpedo in someone's ship?
Only when its shields are down...
Then again, you'll have to lower yours...
"Starship captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way. The secret is to give them what they need, not what they want."
- Scotty, to La Forge
I started a thread a while back about what the 25% damage bonus really was. It turns out that the 25% damage bonus is really a 25% bonus of a Mark ZERO torpedo. In actuality that "25%" bonus is only around 7%.
It's so underwhelming that I personally see no reason to go 2-piece KHG (or Adapted MACO if fed) over the 2-piece Borg set's passive hull regeneration, especially when the crew mechanic is so horrendously broken.
What I would really like for torpedoes is a bonus to shield penetration inversely proportional to the amount of shields remaining on the target. For example, at 100% shields the torpedo shield penetration would be at its current level. At 10% shields, the torpedo shield penetration would be at 75%.
One upside to the Devs changing torpedo shield penetration would be that Science and Engineers would actually be required again for healing and support. As it stands now, 5 escorts (or a mix of escorts and carriers) can just faceroll all of the current (non-broken) STFs.
The reason the Devs can't do this however, is that it would buff the Borg NPCs to the point that the STFs would be virtually unbeatable for a large part of the STO community. The Devs would then have to rewrite the Borg NPC AI to not be Torpedo and drain TRIBBLE and rely more on energy damage.
It does the exact same thing as a torp specific tac console of equal dmg value would, and it is built in to the KHG set, no need of a tac console wasted for a torp bonus. :rolleyes:
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Unfortunately this idea doesn't work too well in practice due to the different shield types and capacities already present. For example, a regenerative shield with half the capacity of a covariant shield would enjoy the same level of protection against torpedoes even though it would implode on a basic cannon alpha strike.
A better suggestion would be to allow kinetic bleed through damage to increase once shields drop below a fixed number... perhaps 5% per 100 shield points below 2000 shield strength (arbitrary value). This results in 100% bleed through damage at 0 shields, 95% bleed through at 100 shields, etc...
Example 1 BOFF Powers:
Any torp impact causes a momentary cycle in the various powers on the quick bar. (ie. you can't initiate ready powers for like .5 secs etc.)
The length of this cycle would be determined by the current crew level. (ie. crew level at none may cause the delay to be 5 secs instead of .5)
Example 2 Weapons Cycles:
Any torp impact would cause the same effect as above but (perhaps) without the scaling based on crew level (or not as severe scaling.)
In any case I agree that the shield/torp relation should be at least slightly rethought.
Example 3 Torps and Shields.
The amount of shields you have remaining vs the torp should scale as far as bleedthough HOWEVER, the damage in question that DOES bleed through would not be so much hull damage as crew damage. It has been seen many times in all the various series that having reduced shields does in fact result in more ship shaking, thus more crew injury/incapacitation. Otherwise I feel that the shield resistances don't need a lot of tweaking.
In closing, by fixing the crew mechanic and actually acknowledging the fact that a ship NEEDS a crew to do all the fancy stuff it is capable of. You could in fact fix multiple other problems INCLUDING torps being underpowered by using them for what they were always intended for; knocking the COMPLETE TRIBBLE out of your opponent.
They need to be re-scaled properly. I would also like to see the cool "flame" thingies that come off. Maybe even travel slower ... MAYBE.
Examples : http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs-starwars/star_trek/space/starship_tactical_systems/photon_torpedoes_img/Enterprise_fires_torpedo.jpg
http://www.mountainproject.com/images/72/12/105907212_medium_ffa9aa.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Star_Trek_-_Photon_torpedoes.jpg
I would then like each ship to have a limited ammo. Instead of buying a Torpedo tube, what you buy is torpedo Ammo.
Then they need a massive damage boost to compensate.
THERE WE HAVE IT, A PROPER, AWESOME TORPEDO!
And yes, the damage to shields should scale.
100% shield : 10% bleed through,
10% shield : 50% bleed through
I hope STO get's better ...
Or, an alternative to that is make them function much like energy weapons now. For example, a phaser beam array fires multiple shots per activation. Perhaps 1 activation is 3 shots from non destructable/ non HYT plasma, and 2 from others.
And remove the stupid global cool down they all share. As of right not its pointless and just gimps them more. Cannons out preform torpedos, yet don't share a GCD, so why should torps?
They are most definitely in need of some worth while change.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Instead of the whole consumable ammo angle, I think perhaps all torpedoes should be subject to some amount of splash damage, at least to the firing ship (lest people start using them to grief their teammates). It has a pretty canon justification, as it has been mentioned at some points in the shows that using torpedoes at too close a range risks damaging the firing ship. With this in place, then the automatic shield resistance to kinetic torpedo weapons could be substantially reduced.
No bringing grenades to a knife-fight, eh?
I'm not sure whether splash damage is a good idea or not. Realistic, yes. Good for gameplay??? Don't have an answer for that one.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
idk how canon that is, but it would certainly make sense from a gameplay perspective.
Torps do have splash damage now -- it's a very small radius but still present (around 1km). I see this when I launch shrapnel torps with HYT or TS quantum salvos. The shrapnel torpedoes end up getting destroyed by the quantum torps AoE instead of dealing damage.
BTW, can we PLEASE get a shrapnel torp overhaul as well? I know, wishful thinking...
You forget that all TOS episodes were illusions created by Q to test Kirk and his crew. All those stories actually never happened...
I seem to recall Geko saying that he considered crew mechanics from launch un-fun and wanted completely different crew mechanics.
Personally?
I would look at this:
Crew would "go red" indicating that they're disabled. And would "go black" indicating that they're killed, which only happens as the result of "releasing" on death on difficulties higher than normal. Crew regenerates (from red but not black) as long as your ship is active.
Ships would not explode on death and would only explode when released. Allied ships could resurrect ships in space like on ground. You can self-resurrect on a timer. More crew equals a shorter timer.
Active crew would allow for a number of out of combat functions, including self-rezzing without a release. Boarding parties would cause crew to temporarily go red.
Overall, crew would be a bit like a mana resource but largely relevant to mid-combat self-resurrection, ability to summon vendors/repair/support, and maybe accuracy bonuses.
This would apply to players.
But I think this would help balance out the ship types somewhat if cruisers have a much more convenient/shorter self-rezzing mechanism due to higher crew, since the cooldown would be triggered based on active crew size.
Now, in terms of torpedoes? I think a big missing feature is aggro control. Aggro should favor crits and large hits per strike over rapid fire, assuming DPS over time is equal. Torpedos should be a superior tanking mechanism. I think this should probably involve some other buffs and adjustments, probably which favor enhanced survivability for ships that have more aggro, based on the ship's natural defensive multipliers like shield multiplier and hull. This would favor higher hull ships using torpedoes.
Back on topic ...
I still hugely support a Torpedo and Damage Overhaul.
As for the torpedo, as well as buying a launcher (not for much though, don't worry) you would buy the Ammo.
To compensate for limited ammo, increase the damage of the Standard Torpedo Mk X to about or even over 5000 Dmg. (Obviously the others would be different in the respective ways)
That means, you only fire a torpedo if you really have too! (Although I believe same side PvP should be exempt from this rule)
Torpedoes would then be what they were designed to be, almost last resort weaponry that really, really, packs a punch.
Hopefully this may clarify some aspects to my previous post :
I hope STO get's better ...
I like the notion that getting hit with a torp ought to incite a strong response
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Agreed!
Agreed, plus see my post.
I hope STO get's better ...
In the 20th century, people designed space crafts and stations so that radiation, gamma rays, etc can be blocked by a super thin sheet layer of material. I would make sense that in the 24th century, material engineering would be such that ship hulls would be super resistant, knowing (and not) what space would throw at them.
Hell, they can make an antimatter warp core... not wait... a SINGULARITY core! Don't tell me they can't design a hull plate super energy resistant.
That said, I think it would make sense to keep shields highly resistant to kinetic attacks but give hulls a higher energy resistance. Meaning, strip down shields with lasers then torpedo away to victory.
Note that I'm actually shooting myself in the foot with my beam cruiser but hey...
- Scotty, to La Forge
you mean I can't beam a photon torpedo in someone's ship?
Only when its shields are down...
Then again, you'll have to lower yours...
- Scotty, to La Forge
It does the exact same thing as a torp specific tac console of equal dmg value would, and it is built in to the KHG set, no need of a tac console wasted for a torp bonus. :rolleyes:
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!