test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Cryptic greed wins over out over a good game. Again.

245

Comments

  • elessymelessym Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    It all depends on how you define 'benefits.' Do the existing customers benefit from new content? Yes, partly (subtracting the parts where it's broken). But to that you need to place the opportunity cost of not fixing bugs. In other words, you need to also ask the question: would the existing customers be better off if time spent on new stuff had been diverted to fixing the current bugs? And then the answer, IMHO, is 'yes' to the latter.

    Personally, I think the latter point is debatable. It's just another version of "do a season of bug-fixing," which is probably the best way yet to kill an MMO.

    But it's all beside the point. If Cryptic's idea, that the work they do to attract new customers has the side effect of creating benefits for existing customers, is a logical fallacy, you must prove that it's not true. Not that there could be more benefits for existing customers if Cryptic did something else, but that what they do to attract new customers has no benefit for existing customers. If you can't prove that, it's not a fallacy.
    "Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
  • marshalericdavidmarshalericdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Have a season of mostly bug fixes. Add a single new ship for each side and a new space and ground STF mission. That would be my dream season.
  • elessymelessym Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Have a season of mostly bug fixes. Add a single new ship for each side and a new space and ground STF mission. That would be my dream season.

    Incredible timing.
    "Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    cgta1967 wrote: »
    I choose "C"...I play, and the bugs are just minor if I encounter them.

    doesnt hurt my gameplay sessions at all ...ever.

    I have yet to encounter a bug that stopped me dead in my tracks in this game.

    No bug has (obviously) ever stopped me from playing the game altogether. But certain aspects of it I feel are certainly closef off to me now. Like I no longer visit my bridges, because all my Embassy boffs have missing body parts, and to me that just breaks immersion. Or I don't wear certain costumes any more, because egregious clipping errors just don't get fixed. Or I don't visit certain bridges any more (even before LoR), because my boffs are hovering 20cm above their seats. Etc.

    All these bugs are game-breakers to me; not deal-breakers per se. But enough of the former will one day result in the latter, for sure. To paraphrase, 'Expansions may come and go, but bugs accumulate.'
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • cgta1967cgta1967 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    no offense but the bugs you listed are pretty darn minor to be raging about IMO....
    _______________________
    ---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited August 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    As Bran once explained to me, in a nutshell, they're more interested in attracting new customers, than in catering to the existing ones -- with the fallacy attached, that focussing on attracting new customers helps raise resources for the current ones. And yes, this is, of course, a fallacy, as once the new customers are in, the circle isn't closed, as it were, but rather a new circle is formed, around the old one, again with new customers in it, leaving the old ones (now including the previously new customers) still unattended.

    And so the cycle continues, with yet a new summer event, or yet another expansion: never properly fixing the previous one. It makes me sad; but there it is.

    Correct, they know plenty about developing but not marketing. The cost of attracting a new customer is higher than keeping existing ones. Existing customers will give you more profits. People deeply invested in this game will pay $$$ for extras. New players just suck server space (loss) while not spending $$$.
  • elessymelessym Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    cgta1967 wrote: »
    no offense but the bugs you listed are pretty darn minor to be raging about IMO....

    I don't really think meimeitoo is raging. Complaining certainly, but that's about it. Well, apart from the misuse of the term 'game-breaker.'
    "Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    elessym wrote: »
    Personally, I think the latter point is debatable. It's just another version of "do a season of bug-fixing," which is probably the best way yet to kill an MMO.

    Yeah, people always say that. ;) Heck, it's even a Rule of Acquisition: 'Expand, or die.' How true is it, though? Just because every MMO manager has been drilled to believe they absolutely must offfer major new content every half-year or so, doesn't mean it's actually true. If you ask the customers themselves, though (funny, this is all very reminiscent of things I've seen happening with EVE Online), you'd find they're not at all that eager to see yet new stuff (at the expense of not having their existing stuff fixed).

    Proof, you say? Well, I dare Cryptic to put up that poll! They're not going to, of course, as they know full-well an overwhelming majority would vote for 'Fix existing bugs first!' Of this I'm certain. ;)
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • elessymelessym Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Correct, they know plenty about developing but not marketing. The cost of attracting a new customer is higher than keeping existing ones. Existing customers will give you more profits. People deeply invested in this game will pay $$$ for extras. New players just suck server space (loss) while not spending $$$.

    Sorry, but you're the one who doesn't know.

    Yes, the cost of attracting a new customer is higher than keeping existing ones. But you've forgotten lesson two from MMO business school: it's impossible to retain everyone.

    Therefore, if you want to survive you have to pay the high costs of attracting new customers. And if what you build to do so suffices to retain your existing customers, that's perfect.

    You know, I think I've heard of a company trying to do that very thing...
    "Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
  • cgta1967cgta1967 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    lucho80 wrote: »
    ....Existing customers will give you more profits. People deeply invested in this game will pay $$$ for extras. New players just suck server space (loss) while not spending $$$.

    are you sure about that ?

    I paid for a LTS at launch, and then the Rom expansion and that's it... I'm riding the investment I made and nothing more.

    New F2P players are microtransactioning all the time to unlock cool features as they encounter them because they dont have anywhere near the features that long term players already enjoy.
    _______________________
    ---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
  • elessymelessym Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Proof, you say? Well, I dare Cryptic to put up that poll! They're not going to, of course, as they know full-well an overwhelming majority would vote for 'Fix existing bugs first!' Of this I'm certain. ;)

    In which case the overwhelming majority would prove themselves incompetent to run an MMO company. Which is hardly a surprise.
    "Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I'm so confused???

    :confused:
    He's mad they fixed a bug but wish they fix bugs??? :confused:
    GwaoHAD.png
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,115 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    A bug is a bug. When something is unintentionally beneficial to a particular group it gets fixed. And there were players spamming out hundreds of those Doffs. We're not talking about a little bug here.

    And if Cryptic didn't care about the gamers they wouldn't even give you little games and events where you can earn EC or Dilithium just for participating. They wouldn't give people the chance to make around 2,000 free Zen a month just by playing. They don't have to give you access to any of that.

    They also wouldn't spend 5 days of the week giving out free costumes and ships either; but they just did recently.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • purplegamerpurplegamer Member Posts: 1,015 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    cgta1967 wrote: »
    no offense but the bugs you listed are pretty darn minor to be raging about IMO....

    That's a bit subjective, don't you think?
  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    iceeaglex wrote: »
    Because i want defera fixed. I want all the bugs that have been in the game for months fixed.
    Shouldn't outstanding bugs be on top of the list?
    Then move down to newer bugs as the older ones get fixed?

    The simple answer to that is, well, no.... that's not how it works at all.... simply because a bug is older does not give it priority. Part of it comes down to how easy it is to identify the cause of the bug, and how easy it is to fix, as well as how badly it effects the ability of the system to run.

    See, when people encounter errors in the game they are not "finding" a bug, they are finding the symptom of a bug..... the developers then have to find the bug based on the symptom; which isn't necessarily that easy when you're talking about a ****-load of code.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    cgta1967 wrote: »
    no offense but the bugs you listed are pretty darn minor to be raging about IMO....

    Raging?! LOL. More like a calm nuance to your all-out 'Stay or Leave' dichotomy.

    And yes, it's all subjective. I'm a visual person (and slightly OCD), so I like my boffs to have their body parts, thank you! :) Yet what happens with a Defera mission, for instance, I couldn't care less about (far as I'm concerned: "What happens at Defera, stays at Defera.").
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • cgta1967cgta1967 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    That's a bit subjective, don't you think?

    possibly ...

    but graphical glitches, costume clipping, and npc hovering doesn't prevent any gameplay from happening if you think about it.

    "gamebreaking" isnt the word I would have used..... annoying perhaps...but the game still runs in all sense of the word.
    :rolleyes:
    _______________________
    ---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Cryptic's bug priority list seems to be:
    1) Currency generating exploits
    2) Annoying bugs from new large updates (after a couple of month they move on to the next thing and bugs just fester)
    3) PvP players annoyances which boil down to game mechanics.

    Any leftover bugs seem to all fall under the "we'll someday get to them". Heck, the Fed tutorial has 3 year old bugs that force you to delete the toon and start over because you're stuck. They knowingly left the doff stacking exploit in the game for more than a year until some guy posted a video of it on Youtube. That finally made them fix it and it took only a week for them to put the fix in. I wish they at least acknowledged known (non exploit obviously) bugs in their weekly patch notes to let us know they are aware of them or had a known bugs list section in the forums.

    Correlation does not equal causation. Merely because they fixed a bug a week after someone posted a video does not mean the video was the cause of the fix being put out.
  • cgta1967cgta1967 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Raging?! LOL. More like a calm nuance to your all-out 'Stay or Leave' dichotomy......

    dude....lol...stay or leave ???...really? ...:rolleyes:

    oh, never mind.... :rolleyes:

    .
    _______________________
    ---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
  • purplegamerpurplegamer Member Posts: 1,015 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    cgta1967 wrote: »
    possibly ...

    but graphical glitches, costume clipping, and npc hovering doesn't prevent any gameplay from happening if you think about it.

    "gamebreaking" isnt the word I would have used..... annoying perhaps...but the game still runs in all sense of the word.
    :rolleyes:

    But that's still subjective. Example: I was recently hit with the tailor CTD effecting a bunch of us. Not being able to outfit my BOFFs has sapped my will to play. So for the time being, my game is broken.

    My point is that what one gamer considers to be a silly bug could actually be very important to another gamer. It all depends on what aspects of the game you particularly enjoy.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    cgta1967 wrote: »
    possibly ...

    but graphical glitches, costume clipping, and npc hovering doesn't prevent any gameplay from happening if you think about it.

    "gamebreaking" isnt the word I would have used..... annoying perhaps...but the game still runs in all sense of the word.
    :rolleyes:

    NOT 'in all sense of the word.' In fact, only in a rather narrow sense of the term, in that 'runs' equates to 'not crashing.' And some costume issues, ironically, actually DO crash the game (like certain Rom boffs at the tailor). But, those aside, certain aspects of the game are certainly not 'running' (or not properly); like absent graphical representations of body parts. Or bugged missions.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    My point is that what one gamer considers to be a silly bug could actually be very important to another gamer. It all depends on what aspects of the game you particularly enjoy.

    Indeed. And I'm certainly not the odd-one-out here, as Cryptic has devoted quite a bit of resources to selling costumes, so I simply *know* visual aspects of the game are not just important to me.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • amosov78amosov78 Member Posts: 1,495 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Defera, overall, needs a design overhaul, not that any of the other "persistent" mark rewarding zones they've done are that great either. It gets a little irritating when you clear the Borg out of the way and someone else swoops in and grabs the thing they were guarding before you can. Also, cross faction teaming would be nice too; united against the Borg and all that.
    U.S.S. Endeavour NCC-71895 - Nebula-class
    Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
    Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    amosov78 wrote: »
    Defera, overall, needs a design overhaul, not that any of the other "persistent" mark rewarding zones they've done are that great either. It gets a little irritating when you clear the Borg out of the way and someone else swoops in and grabs the thing they were guarding before you can. Also, cross faction teaming would be nice too; united against the Borg and all that.
    Defera is more or less forgotten by the dev. And I don't blame them, I never cared for this zone. A design overhaul is something lenghty that pull a lot of ressources. That mean, less content. Would you prefer a better Defera or new content ? That's the question.
    As for ninja looting, well, it's not new. In every non instanced MMO you have this kind of problem.

    As for bugs, there are priorities. First comes the exploit bug. Those used by players for an unfair benefit. Then crashing/gamebreaking bugs. Then you have balance issue. And then "small" bugs (graphical glitch, texture...).
    People ALWAYS complain about bugs, no matter the game. I've seen complain on every games I played. No matter what game it is, there are always the "too many bugs, this game suck" topic of the day on the forum. So, either the game devs are really bad in every MMO, or there is a reason why bug fix is slow. Sometimes it can take weeks to pinpoint what cause a bug. Just so our pants stop clipping.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • standupguy86standupguy86 Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tc10b wrote: »
    I've done Defera from back when it launched and it's not that buggy. It's since improved so that you don't have to do it during awkward 2 hour windows on certain days of the week.

    Funny how your entire rant is directed toward Cryptic closing a loophole rather than complaining about an actual bug, yet you allege that it didn't affect you in anyway so you'll forgive me if I think you are being less than honest.

    Where in his statement does honesty have anything to do with the topic?

    People will find any excuse not to discuss the original topics on these forums. Its pretty pathetic.

    The topic is about bugs going unfixed for months even years...bugs that effect a persons ability to enjoy the game. While things that directly effect Cryptic is quickly dealt with. So what does it matter if he had a Cell ship or not? Hes not complaining that the cell ship exploit should of never been fixed. Only that the Teams ability to quickly deal with the issue shows they are purposely ignoring other issues.

    Excuses can be made for why Cryptic gets to get away with this but there are two truths here that no excuse can overstep.

    Cryptic has had a very poor history of bug fixes

    Cryptic has shown no interest in changing this.
  • tc10btc10b Member Posts: 1,549 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    The topic is about bugs going unfixed for months even years...bugs that effect a persons ability to enjoy the game.
    While things that directly effect Cryptic is quickly dealt with. So what does it matter if he had a Cell ship or not? Hes not complaining that the cell ship exploit should of never been fixed. Only that the Teams ability to quickly deal with the issue shows they are purposely ignoring other issues.

    No it doesn't demonstrate that, it demonstrates that he is keen to have certain bugs overlooked that he deems unimportant (an exploit he was possibly making EC from) whilst having other bugs that he deems more important, dealt with expeditiously (an old clunky adventure zone that no one plays) This is extremely clear from the original post and is specious reasoning.

    Cryptic clearly do care about bug fixes, or no bugs would ever be fixed, including the Cell Ship exploit. They just don't care about the same bugs that you and others consider game breaking.
  • jetwtfjetwtf Member Posts: 1,207
    edited August 2013
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Correct, they know plenty about developing but not marketing. The cost of attracting a new customer is higher than keeping existing ones. Existing customers will give you more profits. People deeply invested in this game will pay $$$ for extras. New players just suck server space (loss) while not spending $$$.

    That works in the service industry and physical products but is not actualy true in the video game industry. In this industry competitors are constantly trying to draw your customers away and there is a boredom/need the next new thing factor customers have. Customers are always changing to the next title released because its new and because it is marketed. To be competitive you have to release all new content or an all new game.

    A complete different animal than a restraunt where a customer is happy with the eggs and loves the waffles they will keep returning, or buy a car and have 0 major issues until it gets old and you want a new one. Gaming customers will move on even if they are happy, they will buy from the competition unless the games provided are better or major updates with expansion packs.

    Bug fixing does not bring in new fresh blood and new fresh blood is really what pays for everything in a F2P MMO. Old players who have a fat wallet that can buy everything has already done that, the new fresh victims to the game who have none of it are the profit.

    Then you have the how to make money between expansions when all the customers already have what you are selling, bug fixing does not add anything anyone will buy, but bringing back an OP ship as a chance of obtaining in some pack will get them to buy.

    In other words people deeply invested in this game are small potatoes compared to new customers buying everything the deeply invested already own and they will even shell out for the extras the deeply invested will buy.
    Join Date: Nobody cares.
    "I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
  • cgta1967cgta1967 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    ....People will find any excuse not to discuss the original topics on these forums. Its pretty pathetic.....

    and "people" ( as used in the oh so generalized reference ) will find any excuse to attack any opinion other than their own in a topic discussion as well eh?..... ad-hominem and the cookie cutter "cryptic is fail" is a common tactic in gaming forums when someone reads something they dont like to see. :rolleyes:

    humans will be humans....food for thought. :cool:

    what are the odds that I will now be called the stereotypical 'cryptic fanboi apologist' now for pointing that out ?:rolleyes:
    _______________________
    ---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tc10b wrote: »
    That is precisely what you should have done, writing another thread about it makes sense because if that is truly your problem then that's the best way to address it. Not make a sideways rant about it.

    I am aware that there are bugs with Defera, City Hard being the most obvious one, but the rest are still perfectly playable and it's still enjoyable. Problem is, Defera was one of their big expansion-esque type things, was a work in progress and they didn't finish it for one reason or another.

    I'm not telling you it takes months to finish, but it's not on their list of priorities. Defera isn't as popular as it used to be people don't go there so often anymore so why would they fix that when they can find more pressing bugs to fix like certain missions being deemed completely unplayable?



    It isn't just bugs from older/less popular content that gets ignored. Newer content, and instances that were popular until they were bugged to hell and back, are getting ignored as well. And all despite a groundswell of complaints regarding said broken content.


    It ranges from "quality of life" related TRIBBLE to actual game play issues.


    While the OP was clearly ranting, his/her post does bring up an interesting thought. Cryptic has a bad habit of ignoring these issues UNLESS it's regarded as "currency" earning "exploit". Then they stumble over each other (figuratively speaking) to fix these problems. In other words, anything that speeds up the grind. The only real game play related exploit that was fixed recently involved the Elachi hand cannon.


    And I don't think is has anything to do with how obvious a bug is, or how easy it is to dig through the code, find it, and fix it. I may be wrong. But that is just how I see it based on an odd coincidence.


    And no, I'm not conjuring up conspiracies. Just throwing in some food for thought.


    Let it be known that I support fixing things that are broken with the game. But I think that the devs priorities are a little slanted. Similar consideration should be given to everything that makes the game not run right. That's how I see it. And from my end, that's what I see not getting done, for whatever reason.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tc10b wrote: »
    No it doesn't demonstrate that, it demonstrates that he is keen to have certain bugs overlooked that he deems unimportant (an exploit he was possibly making EC from) whilst having other bugs that he deems more important, dealt with expeditiously (an old clunky adventure zone that no one plays) This is extremely clear from the original post and is specious reasoning.

    Cryptic clearly do care about bug fixes, or no bugs would ever be fixed, including the Cell Ship exploit. They just don't care about the same bugs that you and others consider game breaking.
    Precisely. Cryptic has their own priorities. Just because some players don't like them, doesn't make them bad.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
Sign In or Register to comment.