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Mass effect(or lack of)
certox
Member Posts: 29 Arc User
Should STO base it's ship weapon lay out, shield generators, warp cores on mass of the ship like every other star trek game? But wait what about Escorts that's not fair! Well simple escort's get a wing of 2 or 3 ship's ( depending on type or class)to compensate. This would restore game balance and also make the game more cannon. It makes no sense foe the larger ships to suffer turn and movement due to there mass and not get any benefit. We all know escorts really should not over power cruisers this has been shown in every show,movie and game star trek ever made.
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When someone brings Canon into some sort of game play balance discussion , they lose the argument.
Game play trumps canon as it should.
Don't forget the Defiant was pulling punches when fighting the Lakota
Technically in the movie it didnt win as the B'rel was destroyed with all hands. The Enterprise would have survived it didnt have the warp core breach and it crash landed but everyone survived. Possibly was the reason Geordi decided to get mechanical eyes instead of using that ugly visor
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Officially Nerfed In Early 2410
Tell that to all the other succesful Star Trek games over the decades. :rolleyes:
Elite Force sure
like Star Trek D-A-C ? :rolleyes:
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
The only escort that was ever classified as an escort on the show (the Defiant and it's mirror version) did just that. We saw it overpower at least an Exclesior, a Keldon, a Vor'Cha and the mirror Negh'var...
If you think escorts have too many weapon slots, you're always free to leave them empty or use a low-tier version...just don't expect a lot of understanding from your fellow STFers.
I want to see that movie... Or at least be as drunk as you were when you watched them...
Defiant-class: Beat the TRIBBLE out of a Excelsior class starship, and more than stood their ground in every major engagement they were in.
Saber-class: Survived the battle of Sector 001, as well as Operation Return, the invasion of Cardassia, and the battle of Cardassia Prime.
Akira-class: Same as Saber class.
How about a Borg cube that wiped out 40 ships, escorts and cruisers, only to be defeated by a single word, "Sleep". I don't see that in game, why should any other cannon battle examples make it in game.
Here happy http://youtu.be/E-aelI7fAF4?t=29s
Also they were not defeated by a word, they were defeated by Plot device.
I think you have that backwards.
But isn't Plot device, plot holes, and hero armor the core behind all Cruiser vs. Escort debates.
Anyway I do not think you can count that video. The Breen Warship used a plot device power drain weapon. Also STO calls the Breen ship an Escort so that's for the Escort vs. Escort debates.
For example, the Defiants in "Message in a bottle", or the and Akiras Sabers in First Contact / DS9...
The galaxies and Excelsiors were always the first to go (unless you count mirandas), and then came the nebulas, Akiras, Sabers and finally the Defiants.
Canon = rules of acceptance
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Well let's admit it... Sometimes people use canon in cannons with a full broadside.
You talk about Role.
It doesn't matter that in real life, a Nimitz class ship is more massive than an Ticonderoga class vessel. If they got in a shooting match with each other with just the weapons equipped on them, the Ticonderoga is gonna sink the Nimitz. Because one is a Guided Missile Cruiser and the other is a Carrier.
Escort and Cruiser aren't really roles in STO, they're size categories.
I'm going to stick strictly to Federation ships here becaus4e things get real confusing if we bring the Romulans and their oversized Warbirds into this (ships as large as the Excelsior that handle like a Defiant...)
Why is the Defiant class show to be so effective? Because its designed as an honest to goodness warship. Calling it an "escort" is Starfleet's way of pretending it's not what it is, the Defiant class isn't meant to escort anything, it's a pure seek and destroy vessel designed to kick the snot out of anything it comes across while being highly manuverable and with big guns.
There's a term for that, depending on which era you want to look at, but I prefer the old high seas terms (pre-modern): it's a frigate. It's role is very similar to that of the old American Frigates (most famous of which would be the USS Constitution).
Anyway, different ships are designed with different roles in universe. This is why the Galaxy class is an inferior combat ship to many other ships Starfleet uses. It wasn't designed primarily as a combat vessel. It can hold its own, yes, but it doesn't excel at that role. What type of ship is the Galaxy class? It's an Explorer type. It's main purpose is long range, deep space and long term exploration. Not combat. Compared to the Constitution, Excelsior, Defiant and other classes, the Galaxy class never seemed to hold its own in combat as well. Always having to pull stunts off rather than just shooting them.
What do the Constitution, Excelsior and Defiant all have in common? The Constitution and Excelsior are both Heavy Cruisers, and the Deiant, as noted, is an Escort. They are all designed primarily with combat in mind.
So why is this?
Look at the situations surrounding the design of those ships. The Constitutions were built durring high tensions with the Klingons and other species, when the Alpha and Beta quadrants were unstable and dangerous places. The Defiant, as most know, was designed as an anti-borg ship. In other words, it was the Federation making a warship. Other classes of ships that came out of that new emphasis on combat? Akira, Saber, Soviegn, all classes that were highly combat capable, no matter the size. The Galaxy, being made durring a period of peacetime with no major threats, well, kinda stands out.
The Intrepid class ships also reflect this emphasis of design philosophy. They are long range, deep space exploration ships. Intrepid ships aren't as effective in combat as a Defiant class (as show many times in Voyager). I mean, imagine the Defiant taking on Kazon ships, the KAzon ships would be a joke to it. But the Defiant is smaller than the Intrepid, and probably would not have been able to make it home (due, again, to the role difference. Defiants aren't designed with long range missions in mind, so they lack the amenities and supplying that long range ships have, using that weight instead for larger cores and more weapons).
In the end, it's not mass that's pertinant to the effectiveness of the ship, it's role. A ship playing to its strengths is going to be more effective than one that not. An Intrepid won't outshoot a Defiant, but don't send a Defiant on a long range mission, it's just not suited for it. STO i combat focused, so ships with a combat emphasis are seen as most effective. The problem is, most Cruisers in Star Trek, at least Federation ones, aren't designed with pure combat in mind, while most escort sized ships are. The smaller ships that aren't designed as combat focused are usually labeled as science ships (like the Intrepid class).
It's not about mass, it's not even about power, it's about the role the ship is designed for. STO reflects that the larger ships tend to be designed for multiple roles and pack less bang for the buck than escorts do. Because the game is combat focused, this means escorts are better as pretty much all we do is combat.
I'd actually like to break away from that in some respects. Have some missions where the issues aren't combat related, where the Science ships and Cruisers have clear advantages.
But in STO ship size means stronger hull lol.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
No one's trying to follow canon here - especially when canon is whatever a writer wanted to happen in any particular episode. Game mechanics simply try and quantify whatever writers wanted to happen at a shake of a pen. It's nearly impossible to do as writers can have someone win and then turn around and have them lose to something even weaker then what they just defeated.
well....uhh...!%#$
XD
Yes, the Enterprise would have survived had it not been for the warp core breech caused by the B'rel's attack. It is unfair to count this as the Enterprise being destroyed by the B'rel because it would have survived had it not succumbed to the injuries sustained in the attack by the B'rel.... this makes perfect sense when you don't think about it.
yeah I know and really wasnt talking plot armor but that just limits the STO ships too, they could have a small fast moving ship with allot of hitpoints but fewer weapons just to have some variety. i think a small fast moving ship with huge hitpoints would make a great tank/distraction rather than just slow moving tank. Not only is it hard to hit but it is hard to kill when you do hit and it can follow you around quite easily and annoy you. kinda like a fly that wont land... thats made of metal... and shoots lasers at you... Not powerful enough to kill you right away but powerfull enough for you to call for help in swating it. but cannot equip dual cannons. single or turrets, torp, mines, and beams for weapons.
They could do far more variety in setups.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek: