If you want to talk about canon and ship designs, you don't talk about mass.
You talk about Role.
It doesn't matter that in real life, a Nimitz class ship is more massive than an Ticonderoga class vessel. If they got in a shooting match with each other with just the weapons equipped on them, the Ticonderoga is gonna sink the Nimitz. Because one is a Guided Missile Cruiser and the other is a Carrier.
Escort and Cruiser aren't really roles in STO, they're size categories.
I'm going to stick strictly to Federation ships here becaus4e things get real confusing if we bring the Romulans and their oversized Warbirds into this (ships as large as the Excelsior that handle like a Defiant...)
Why is the Defiant class show to be so effective? Because its designed as an honest to goodness warship. Calling it an "escort" is Starfleet's way of pretending it's not what it is, the Defiant class isn't meant to escort anything, it's a pure seek and destroy vessel designed to kick the snot out of anything it comes across while being highly manuverable and with big guns.
There's a term for that, depending on which era you want to look at, but I prefer the old high seas terms (pre-modern): it's a frigate. It's role is very similar to that of the old American Frigates (most famous of which would be the USS Constitution).
Anyway, different ships are designed with different roles in universe. This is why the Galaxy class is an inferior combat ship to many other ships Starfleet uses. It wasn't designed primarily as a combat vessel. It can hold its own, yes, but it doesn't excel at that role. What type of ship is the Galaxy class? It's an Explorer type. It's main purpose is long range, deep space and long term exploration. Not combat. Compared to the Constitution, Excelsior, Defiant and other classes, the Galaxy class never seemed to hold its own in combat as well. Always having to pull stunts off rather than just shooting them.
What do the Constitution, Excelsior and Defiant all have in common? The Constitution and Excelsior are both Heavy Cruisers, and the Deiant, as noted, is an Escort. They are all designed primarily with combat in mind.
So why is this?
Look at the situations surrounding the design of those ships. The Constitutions were built durring high tensions with the Klingons and other species, when the Alpha and Beta quadrants were unstable and dangerous places. The Defiant, as most know, was designed as an anti-borg ship. In other words, it was the Federation making a warship. Other classes of ships that came out of that new emphasis on combat? Akira, Saber, Soviegn, all classes that were highly combat capable, no matter the size. The Galaxy, being made durring a period of peacetime with no major threats, well, kinda stands out.
The Intrepid class ships also reflect this emphasis of design philosophy. They are long range, deep space exploration ships. Intrepid ships aren't as effective in combat as a Defiant class (as show many times in Voyager). I mean, imagine the Defiant taking on Kazon ships, the KAzon ships would be a joke to it. But the Defiant is smaller than the Intrepid, and probably would not have been able to make it home (due, again, to the role difference. Defiants aren't designed with long range missions in mind, so they lack the amenities and supplying that long range ships have, using that weight instead for larger cores and more weapons).
In the end, it's not mass that's pertinant to the effectiveness of the ship, it's role. A ship playing to its strengths is going to be more effective than one that not. An Intrepid won't outshoot a Defiant, but don't send a Defiant on a long range mission, it's just not suited for it. STO i combat focused, so ships with a combat emphasis are seen as most effective. The problem is, most Cruisers in Star Trek, at least Federation ones, aren't designed with pure combat in mind, while most escort sized ships are. The smaller ships that aren't designed as combat focused are usually labeled as science ships (like the Intrepid class).
It's not about mass, it's not even about power, it's about the role the ship is designed for. STO reflects that the larger ships tend to be designed for multiple roles and pack less bang for the buck than escorts do. Because the game is combat focused, this means escorts are better as pretty much all we do is combat.
I'd actually like to break away from that in some respects. Have some missions where the issues aren't combat related, where the Science ships and Cruisers have clear advantages.
This is one of the most legit posts I have seen on here.
Don't forget the Defiant was pulling punches when fighting the Lakota
I watched that episode again. Lakota could have fought Defiant to a standstill. If you say Defiant was holding back so was Lakota... they didn't even use their quantum torpedoes.
That's weird, I thought the exact opposite was happening...
Both sides were holding back. Both sides had quantum torpedoes, had either one used them on the other they would have won. But it's important to note that the Defiant, a much smaller ship, was beating the Excelsior Refit to a standstill with just cannons alone. This was after the Lakota got the first shot off as well. Defiant started off as the underdog.
Yes, the Enterprise would have survived had it not been for the warp core breech caused by the B'rel's attack. It is unfair to count this as the Enterprise being destroyed by the B'rel because it would have survived had it not succumbed to the injuries sustained in the attack by the B'rel.... this makes perfect sense when you don't think about it.
Ok, one thing here.
Magic plot device. The enterprise was hit hard because they JACKED THE SHIELD FREQUENCY! B'rel ships do not just fire directly through shields. I'm just saying.
Secondly Defiant and lakota were both pulling punches and going for disables as fed's dont fight fed's the especially don't aim to kill them. At least not usually Traitors not with standing, and Defectors.
I would post on the OP but that ship sailed.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Magic plot device. The enterprise was hit hard because they JACKED THE SHIELD FREQUENCY! B'rel ships do not just fire directly through shields. I'm just saying.
Magic plot device or no, it stands as an employed tactic. A B'rel can just shoot through shields if they get the shield frequency of the target ship..... they exploited a weakness, on the flip side the B'rel was also destroyed through an exploited weaknesss. Exploiting a weakness in your target is a valid tactic in combat.
Ultimately it goes back to no matter how good the ship is, it doesn't really matter, who is commanding and how they plan their resources can make a world of difference. I've seen escorts which can punch out massive DPS in estf still lose the match for the team because they are driven by idiots who cannot coordinate with others, and only know how to line up on whatever target they see and start firing.
Magic plot device or no, it stands as an employed tactic. A B'rel can just shoot through shields if they get the shield frequency of the target ship..... they exploited a weakness, on the flip side the B'rel was also destroyed through an exploited weaknesss. Exploiting a weakness in your target is a valid tactic in combat.
Ultimately it goes back to no matter how good the ship is, it doesn't really matter, who is commanding and how they plan their resources can make a world of difference. I've seen escorts which can punch out massive DPS in estf still lose the match for the team because they are driven by idiots who cannot coordinate with others, and only know how to line up on whatever target they see and start firing.
Yes but kidnapping someone and altering their visor isnt exactly a tactic that would work against every galaxy class
Whereas the vice versa of a knowledgable klingon wouldn't be on every Galaxy class.
Hence magic plot devices. Magic plot devices do not equal valid or effective tactics. Thats highly circumstantial.
Whereas Emission seeking torpedoes are a little more valid of an exploited weakness.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I watched that episode again. Lakota could have fought Defiant to a standstill. If you say Defiant was holding back so was Lakota... they didn't even use their quantum torpedoes.
That's weird, I thought the exact opposite was happening...
The Lakota got four good shots on the Defiant before Worf said fight......by the end the Lakota was in worst shape than the Defiant (as stated by Kira) and one shot would finish her....I'm going with the Defiant could have blown her to kingdom come any time it wanted, while the Lakota could not even take out her Engines in all the time it had before the Defiant fought back. Lakota had a head start, and ended up worst then the Defiant IMO the Defiant was playing with it's food.
That's an asinine rebuttal. What neoakiraii said is what the canon presents: the Defiant is a tough little ship that has demonstrably 'punched above her weight'. The Lakota, which was refitted to be more combat capable, and fired first, and got several good shots in before the Defiant opened up, and which suffered higher casualties, couldn't stop the Defiant. Both could have completely destroyed the other as well, and both sides were holding back. As such, it should be self-evident that the Defiant is the better combat ship.
Saying 'lol hero ship vs non-hero ship' is ridiculous. For one thing, you're assigning out-of-context rationalisation to a canon event. This is like saying the warp drive is as fast as the plot says it is. While yes, this is somewhat true, it's also not really relevant. Even the writers, most of the time, try to get it right and try to work out in the writer's room what the capabilities are of the various ships of the shows. Sometimes they get things wrong but just as often they write within the bounds they set out for themselves. Irrespective of this, ultimately what matters is what's on the screen. And what's onscreen when I watch 'Paradise Lost' is the Defiant kicking the Lakota's TRIBBLE.
Comments
This is one of the most legit posts I have seen on here.
I watched that episode again. Lakota could have fought Defiant to a standstill. If you say Defiant was holding back so was Lakota... they didn't even use their quantum torpedoes.
That's weird, I thought the exact opposite was happening...
Ok, one thing here.
Magic plot device. The enterprise was hit hard because they JACKED THE SHIELD FREQUENCY! B'rel ships do not just fire directly through shields. I'm just saying.
Secondly Defiant and lakota were both pulling punches and going for disables as fed's dont fight fed's the especially don't aim to kill them. At least not usually Traitors not with standing, and Defectors.
I would post on the OP but that ship sailed.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Magic plot device or no, it stands as an employed tactic. A B'rel can just shoot through shields if they get the shield frequency of the target ship..... they exploited a weakness, on the flip side the B'rel was also destroyed through an exploited weaknesss. Exploiting a weakness in your target is a valid tactic in combat.
Ultimately it goes back to no matter how good the ship is, it doesn't really matter, who is commanding and how they plan their resources can make a world of difference. I've seen escorts which can punch out massive DPS in estf still lose the match for the team because they are driven by idiots who cannot coordinate with others, and only know how to line up on whatever target they see and start firing.
Yes but kidnapping someone and altering their visor isnt exactly a tactic that would work against every galaxy class
Whereas the vice versa of a knowledgable klingon wouldn't be on every Galaxy class.
Hence magic plot devices. Magic plot devices do not equal valid or effective tactics. Thats highly circumstantial.
Whereas Emission seeking torpedoes are a little more valid of an exploited weakness.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The Lakota got four good shots on the Defiant before Worf said fight......by the end the Lakota was in worst shape than the Defiant (as stated by Kira) and one shot would finish her....I'm going with the Defiant could have blown her to kingdom come any time it wanted, while the Lakota could not even take out her Engines in all the time it had before the Defiant fought back. Lakota had a head start, and ended up worst then the Defiant IMO the Defiant was playing with it's food.
9 Casualties on the Defiant
24 on Lakota
Tough little ship. :cool:
Thats not a comparison.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
That's an asinine rebuttal. What neoakiraii said is what the canon presents: the Defiant is a tough little ship that has demonstrably 'punched above her weight'. The Lakota, which was refitted to be more combat capable, and fired first, and got several good shots in before the Defiant opened up, and which suffered higher casualties, couldn't stop the Defiant. Both could have completely destroyed the other as well, and both sides were holding back. As such, it should be self-evident that the Defiant is the better combat ship.
Saying 'lol hero ship vs non-hero ship' is ridiculous. For one thing, you're assigning out-of-context rationalisation to a canon event. This is like saying the warp drive is as fast as the plot says it is. While yes, this is somewhat true, it's also not really relevant. Even the writers, most of the time, try to get it right and try to work out in the writer's room what the capabilities are of the various ships of the shows. Sometimes they get things wrong but just as often they write within the bounds they set out for themselves. Irrespective of this, ultimately what matters is what's on the screen. And what's onscreen when I watch 'Paradise Lost' is the Defiant kicking the Lakota's TRIBBLE.
Emission seeking torpedoes? That was ST:VI not Generations. Get your movies straight.