Again, the in-game description - the tooltip - for the Jem'Hadar Deflector is incorrect. It lists 1%, but it is providing a different amount instead if you reslot it/zone from ground to space(which reslots), etc, etc, etc. It used to list 1% and give 1.5%...but that appears to have changed.
I login on my Snooper.
SDR = 447.81.
I remove the Deflector (Mk XI).
347.81 (which is the 1%)
I reslot the Deflector.
480.78 (which is not 1%)
What I'm trying to understand is where the 1% (or 1,5%) was based on. So far, I'm baffled. Because 1% of your SDR of 447,81 is 4,4781, right? Not 100, which is the actual difference shown.
Nor is it 1% of SDR+5000, as 1% of 5447,81=54,4781.
So it's either 1% of a much bigger number, or applied elsewhere entirely.
*vague nagging feeling at back of mind*
*checks yesterdays' calculations*
Now, there is a 10000 somewhere in these calculations Bort posted. If that were involved, that might work out: 1% of 10000 is 100...
In that case, the 1% and similar percentages might accidentally(?) be based on a (modified) version of that 10000?
That doesn't explain why reequipping the deflector gives a bonus of 132,97 instead of 100, but that might just be general borkedness and faulty calculation sequencing.
Edit: this actually might make sense. As Vonamicus also pointed out, it might indeed be another Strength
Value modifier, if you look at this formula:
5000 * (1 + (SDR / 10000))
And then imagine something like this:
5000 * (1 + (SDR / 10000)+1%)
It's also easy to imagine how sequence errors might creep in if there's a small typo in there somewhere. Eg.: (1+(SDR/10000+1%)) vs (1+(SDR/(10000+1%)).
Especially is the code is more xyz based, with 10000, and the others, being a value that can be called in different points of the calculation. So the code for [disequip] might contain an x where the code for [equip] contains a y. Or something like that. I've made similar errors in excel; took me ages to find out where the inconsistencies came from.
Not sure what you are saying here Virusdancer; 447.81 to 347.81 is a decrease of about 25%, not 1%. The description of 1% for the Mk XI (and 2% for the Mk XII) clearly does not apply to SDR.
I too have noticed the staggered/delayed changes in the SDR readout with changes in equipment and ground to space. Eventually, by changing power levels and opening and closing the window, I was able to get the readout to stabilize at numbers consistent with the formula provided by Borticus for SDR.
It probably ended up more borked when they attempted to fix the issue the updated EPtA was causing. Remember when the +50 StealthSight was giving +500,000 SDR?
They forgot the 5000 * (1 + (X)) part of the formula. The 500,000/10,000 provided the 50...but that's not how the formula worked; so folks were getting 250001 Perception (StealthSight) and were able to see...everything.
They bumped the +50 StealthSight (which provided +1km) to +3km and pulled it out of the formula. EPtA1 is not giving you +150 SDR to give you that +3km. It's just giving you the +3km behind the scenes (maybe, lol).
Hell, maybe they changed the whole thing when they attempted to fix that. Was it a case that Hawk took that over from Bort?
Not sure what you are saying here Virusdancer; 447.81 to 347.81 is a decrease of about 25%, not 1%. The description of 1% for the Mk XI (and 2% for the Mk XII) clearly does not apply to SDR.
I too have noticed the staggered/delayed changes in the SDR readout with changes in equipment and ground to space. Eventually, by changing power levels and opening and closing the window, I was able to get the readout to stabilize at numbers consistent with the formula provided by Borticus for SDR.
As far as the recalc issue - it's something that has to be done each time you zone. Can't remember if that's on respawns still or not. It was one of my big complaints before the change to Ker'rat, the issue with the camps I had was that there was no time for players to fix the calc/recalc issues taking place - basically folks attacking during a spawncamp were exploiting the broken calculations.
edit: This was before the fix for EPtA, so things may have changed with that.
Edit: this actually might make sense. As Vonamicus also pointed out, it might indeed be another Strength
Value modifier, if you look at this formula:
5000 * (1 + (SDR / 10000))
And then imagine something like this:
5000 * (1 + (SDR / 10000)+1%)
It's also easy to imagine how sequence errors might creep in if there's a small typo in there somewhere. Eg.: (1+(SDR/10000+1%)) vs (1+(SDR/(10000+1%))).
Especially is the code is more xyz based, with 10000, and the others, being a value that can be called in different points of the calculation. So the code for [disequip] might contain an x where the code for [equip] contains a y. Or something like that. I've made similar errors in excel; took me ages to find out where the inconsistencies came from.
Came to similar conclusions but got ninja'd :P
Edit: At this point I'd really like to know coding techniques, or have access to the source code involved. Neither ever going to happen, but still, it'd be pretty useful when figuring this stuff out.
But that's the thing: the numbers don't make sense coming from the information we have (both from tests and displays).
Bold statement: the calculations in-game might be off. Or the displayed SDR.
I'm starting to suspect that some of the +1% calculations call a different value than the -1% calculations; one of them calling the value for SDR and one of them calling the value for the 10000. Or something.
I'm curious about what happens when you add and remove the deflector multiple times, without any other actions. Does it stabilise on 1 value, or does it keep increasing?
So I hop on my Snooper again. I do the complete shuffle.
Science Vessel
125 Aux
252 Sensors
Mk XI Jem Deflector
690.78 SDR
I remove the Jem Deflector.
527.81 (a difference of 162.97 or 76.4% of what it was)
I slot it again, taking it back to 690.78 SDR. I remove one of the +30 Sensors.
645.78 is my new SDR.
Remove the Jem Deflector.
482.81 (162.97 is the difference again but it's 74.8% this time)
Reslot the Deflector, pull the remaining 3 +30 Sensors.
488.28 is my new SDR.
Remove the Jem Deflector.
347.81 (140.47 is the difference this time with it being 71.2%)
But wait, is that right? Let's reslot the 4x consoles and try again.
Reslotting the 4x consoles provides a SDR of 683.28 which is not the 690.78 we started with. Reslot the Deflector again, and...we're back at the 690.78 once more.
It's a PITA, it really is a PITA.
Let's try this again, eh?
Starting with 690.78 SDR as this posted started.
Remove Deflector: 527.81 SDR
Reslot a Sensor (remove and add): 527.81
Prior to the buff to EPtA and the subsequent fix that took place...each time you removed the Jem Deflector (regardless of whatelse was going on) - it would remove 100 when you first logged on, added 150 when you reslotted it, removed 150.
Obviously they've changed something there.
When you log in - it is still providing the +100, reslotting though - it's all up in the air because of whatever other changes have taken place.
I am certainly no mathematician Virusdancer, but I think your calculations are off. How do you explain:
SDR 119.4
Add Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI (+1% StealthSight) ---> SDR 244.15
They're based on the way that it used to work. Obviously, it no longer works that way.
Here was my post pointing out the issue with the Jem Deflector back in the March 8th Tribble notes where Bort offered his explanation about stealth...which was before the bump EPtA received with LoR, the subsequent bugs involved, and whatever resolutions/changes they made at that time.
First of all, just wanted to point out (it may be over in the bug section, but I didn't look - mea culpa) the following:
Mirror DSSV
Astrophysicist trait (+10 Sensors)
9 pts Sensors
Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI
4x VR Sensor Probes Mk XII
125 Aux
When you first login, it shows a SDR of 593.50 - you can transwarp, go to sector space, go back to normal space, and when in normal space - it will show that 593.50 number.
Drop down to ESD and then back out to normal space - bazinga - looking at 650.75 instead.
ie, if you never go to the ground - it's going to display the incorrect SDR. Now, is this just a display issue or is it actually calculating your SDR incorrectly at that point?
If you remove one of the Sensor Probes, the SDR drops down to 605.75 - it drops 45 for a +30 console. Remove a second console, and you're down to 553.25 now - a loss of 52.5 for that second +30 console. A third? 500.75 and another loss of 52.5 for it. The fourth? 448.25 and another 52.5 lost.
Okay, let's add the consoles back. Wait, what's this? Adding a console takes us to 485.75 instead of the 500.75 we had before we took it off. Second takes us to 538.25 - third takes us to 590.75 - and the fourth takes us to 643.25 which is not the "correct" number we had after visiting a ground instance to "correct" that initial number.
Okay, so we take the Jem deflector off now. It drops us to 493.50 from 643.25 - a loss of 149.75 - but, let's add it back, eh? And tada, we're back at that 650.75 number.
If we remove the Jem deflector and Sensor consoles, we drop down to 313.50 for our SDR. Then we add the Jem deflector back...tada, we get 440.75 - which is not the number we had when we removed all the Sensor consoles and left just the deflector in place. Add all the Sensor consoles back, we get the 643.25 - which we can fix by taking the deflector off and putting it back on to get to that 650.75...which might be the right number? Can't really say, eh? What's the math behind converting Sensors to SDR?
Should be able to backtrack it some, eh? Remove the Sensor consoles and the Jem deflector. That drops it down to that 313.50 number. Based on what was offered for the Aux to SDR conversion for a Sci Vessel - the 125 Aux should provide 150 SDR. If we subtract that, we should get 163.50 as our number just reflecting the 109 Sensors (9 pts Sensors +10 from Astro). That would work out to 1.5 per Sensor. If I add a +30 Sensor console, then I should see a bonus of +45 to the SDR - right? 358.50 (+45 compared to that 313.50 number). So each point of Sensors provides +1.5 SDR.
Okay then, so we're looking at the following:
125 Aux = 150 SDR
229 Sensors = 343.5 SDR
Bazinga - that's the number that shows when I drop the four consoles back in - I get the 493.50 number.
Let's add that +1% Jem deflector, eh? Wait...+1%? So based on the formula you gave previous - that +1% should be 100 SDR, no? 100/10000 = 0.01 - no?
If I add the deflector after the consoles - then the deflector is adding 157.25 to the SDR. If I add the deflector before the consoles - then it adds 127.25 to the SDR.
If I remove it after removing the consoles - then it was adding 134.75 to the SDR.
Okay, let's step back for a moment then. Is there anything else that does a +1% sort of thing? Aha, EPtA1 does +1% Stealthsight. Okay, is that it then - is that the difference? The Jem deflector adds +1% to Stealth Detection?
Cause sure enough, hitting EPtA1 adds 100 to the SDR as would be expected based on the formula you provided and the example given just above.
There anything else like that? Sensor Scan III says it adds +5.2% Stealthsight - so I should expect +520 SDR, right? It should be 833.50 after I hit the ability. I get 836 - which - based on rounding that likely took place, is close enough for government work - am I right?
The Jem deflector is obviously not working like that. It's a +1% Stealth Detection - but it's not a +1% Stealthsight. It's not adding 100 to the SDR. Is it a +1% Perception bonus then?
Our SDR should be 598.435ish when we add the Jem deflector. It's not. Our SDR is 650.75, remember? But wait, remember how this whole post started? Because when you logged in and before you went to the ground - the SDR was 593.50? Wait...nah, I'll come back to it. /cough
I'd say that 5246.75 and 5243.7825 are pretty close, eh?
Remember that wait I mentioned and said I'd come back to it? 593.50 - 493.50 = 100. When you login, the +1% for the Jem deflector is acting like a +1% Stealthsight. Yes, most of the math just done was somewhat pointless - that +1% was going to vary very minutely, eh?
Okay then, what's that 650.75 doing then? Is the 593.50 the correct number?
So, you login to the game - you get a +1% from the deflector. You go to the ground and back (or switch gear around) - then you get a +1.5% from the deflector.
Like I said though, you don't have to go to the ground. You login, you've got your 593.50 number. Remove one of the Sensor consoles and your SDR actually goes up to 605.75 (yes, this is where I first noticed it - WTF - I take a console out and the number goes up? Lol, anyway)...course, you add the console back - get the 643.25 number - drop the deflector - add the deflector - and tada, you're back at that 650.75 number. You can just as easily just take the deflector off and put it back to take it from the 1% to 1.5%...
So uh - is it supposed to be +1% or +1.5%...and which ever it is, can we have it actually be that without having to play musical consoles and deflectors?
And none of that was actually what I wanted to post about - that was just the "first, let me..." - meh, lol, whatever, eh?
Okay, I guess I'll have work with both numbers for what I'm looking at then (593.50 & 650.75).
So at this point I should be able to see that 4975 Stealth guy at 15.66km or 16.23km.
Okay, so in looking at one of my guys. He's got 0 Stealth skill, no consoles, sitting at 104 Aux, and has 5029.7 Stealth. I give him a +15 Stealth console (I'm cheap) - which takes his Stealth to 5037.2 - he got +7.5 as per your each skill point of stealth is worth half a point of stealth. Not doubting you, honestly, just providing a potential example for somebody following along.
So let's say somebody takes 9 in Stealth (99 skill points of Stealth), adds 3x +30 Stealth consoles, and they've got the Mk XII KHG deflector - so they'll have 197.8 skill points worth of stealth (curious, eh? that's pretty close to the 200 number for having the uber sneaky Rom BOFF). Let's go ahead and add one of those Rom BOFFs to take it to 397.8 Stealth skill.
So we'd divide that in half to add to the 4975 (no Stealth skill/50 Aux) guy to get a Stealth rating of 5173.9 - and - from sliding around Aux, it looks like 1 Aux = 1 Stealth rating. So let's take this guy from 50 Aux to 125 Aux.
So if I were to grab somebody and go test...those are around the distances that things should be working, eh?
The guy with...
9 Sensors
4x +30 Sensor Probes
Astrophysicist Trait
125 Aux
Jem Deflector Mk XI
EPtA1 (remember, it's only 5s)
Sensor Scan 3 (remember, it's only 20s)
...should be able to the see the guy with...
9 Stealth
3x +30 Stealth Modules
125 Aux
KHG Deflector Mk XII
Rom Subterfuge BOFF
...at ~10.1-10.8km for 5s.
...at ~9.2-9.7km for another 15s.
...at ~1-1.5km otherwise.
That about right?
If it was just the 4975 Stealth guy, then it would be...
...at ~15.6-16.2km for 5s.
...at ~14.6-15.2km for another 15s.
...at ~6.4-7km otherwise.
That about right?
edit: This also means the following...
5075 Stealth Rating (4975 guy & 200 Stealth Skill Rom BOFF)
5075 = 5000 * (1 + (X / 10000))
X = 150
You'd need 150 SDR just to get to a 0 difference.
To be able to see that Stealther at 0.5km, you'd need...5100 Perception.
5100 = 5000 * (1 + (X / 10000))
X = 200
0 Sensors, no Sensor boosting gear, no Sensor Scan or other abilities, etc, etc, etc.
Your max SDR in a non-Sci with 125 Aux would be 50.
In a Sci with 125 Aux, you could get 150.
Neither is going to let you see that "unskilled" Stealther with the Rom BOFF even at 0.5km. The guy could board your ship, eat your lunch, use your bathroom, take a nap in your bed, and steal your autographed life-sized Shatner cardboard standup.
If that guy takes 9 Sensors too, he could see the Stealther at 0.485km...that's how he could save the Shatner!
If he has less than 5 Sensors, he'll never see the guy unless the guy wants him to see him. (Pronounsanity!)
Would this be a good moment to bring this to the attention of the relevant dev?
In daily life, doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result is a sign of a troubled mind. In here, it's actually happening. And not just a one-or-the-other different, but different all the time...
But that's the thing: the numbers don't make sense coming from the information we have (both from tests and displays).
Bold statement: the calculations in-game might be off. Or the displayed SDR.
I'm starting to suspect that some of the +1% calculations call a different value than the -1% calculations; one of them calling the value for SDR and one of them calling the value for the 10000. Or something.
I'm curious about what happens when you add and remove the deflector multiple times, without any other actions. Does it stabilise on 1 value, or does it keep increasing?
As I've kind of mentioned, it's a PITA - it's borked.
No Deflector/no Consoles: 347.81
Add 4x Consoles and then Deflector: 690.78
Add Deflector and then 4x Consoles: 683.28
The numbers should be the same, but the order that you add items affects the displayed number.
I can't imagine what a jumbled mess the coding behind this must be.
If you remove the Deflector and add it back again (basically as if it were doing the Consoles first), yes - you're back at the 690.78 number.
A +7.5 difference...or...a +1.097646645591851071303126097647% difference.
Thing is, without the Deflector - it's 527.81...so obviously it's not a case of it adding +1%. However, it appears that in slotting it last - it's adding a ~1% of SDR beyond what it's already adding (which used to be +1.5% StealthSight/Perception - but is now 1.55% at that certain point).
It's just massively borked. It was borked to begin with...they borked it more buffing EPtA...they borked it even more trying to fix the borked EPtA.
Would this be a good moment to bring this to the attention of the relevant dev?
In daily life, doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result is a sign of a troubled mind. In here, it's actually happening. And not just a one-or-the-other different, but different all the time...
Do you want some real fun? Something that's going to apply to far more people? Take a look at what happens with the Impulse Speed calculations when you utilize APO, APA, EM, EPtE (varying the order that you use them)...and then turn.
An additional note and clarification. That +7.5 I got from reslotting the Deflector last? That's not a +~1% SDR like I thought. That's constant. It's always +7.5 more SDR.
No consoles, add the Deflector (add/remove a Sensor) it's +7.5...
1 console, 2 consoles, 3 consoles, 4 consoles, add the Deflector (add/remove or reslot) it's +7.5...
52 to 125 Aux, doing the above...it's always +7.5 more SDR with the final shuffling.
Oh, if you want a good example of where the +% StealthSight still works as (+X% = +(X*100) SDR), then hit up your Sensor Scan.
280.23 SDR
+5.8% StealthSight
859.92
+579.69 SDR
690.78 SDR
+8.8% StealthSight
1570.47
+879.69 SDR
edit: And yes, I know that the Deflector states +1% Stealth Detection instead of +1% StealthSight..however, it functioned like Sensor Scan in the manner that it added to SDR previously.
Oh, if you want a good example of where the +% StealthSight still works as (+X% = +(X*100) SDR), then hit up your Sensor Scan.
Eureka! That was a big clue there Virusdancer, thanks! The Sensor scan does appear to add 100 to SDR per Stealthsight percentage point in the readout. Even more significantly, the % bonus readout for Sensor scan scales with your Sensors skill. At 0 Sensors skill, Sensor Scan reads as giving exactly a 2.5% bonus -- which translates into an actual 250 addition to SDR. Likewise, at 0 Sensors skill the Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI gives exactly a 100 point bonus to SDR (which would appear to correspond to the 1% listed bonus for the defelctor)! Presumably the bonus for the Jem'Hadar Deflector scales with Sensor points in a similar manner to the bonus for Sensor Scan. The deflector just lacks the active readout for the bonus that is in the tool tip for Sensor Scan.
Now that is an interesting tidbit. So, display issue on the deflector, then. That explains the large number discrepency on that thing (and the activated mode for the 2 Nebula consoles, btw).
That just leaves us with the weird stacking issues/reslotting business, lol.
When I'm not tired and slightly inebriated I'll see if I can make some numbers work in one of these formulae, but for now: good night
Note: I noticed something odd with the following one, so there's a second / where I removed the Tachyon Detection Grid (+22.9) and reslotted it. Needless to say, I was even more surprised by that result.
Before getting into trying to figure anything out (I'm rarely good at that, I usually type something without a clue as to its actual meaning and somebody else steps in and makes sense of it)...I want to point out something that stands out like a sore thumb to me.
From 132 Sensors on, the second number from one set is the first number from the next set when it comes to the %Increase.
The second number for 132 (which was +22.9 Sensors) is the same as the first number for 162 (which was +30 Sensors). Second number for 162 is the same as the first for 192, etc, etc, etc.
Even at 252, where unlike the previous numbers where reslotting a Sensor Probe resulted in +7.5 - instead we lost 7.5, that first 252 number is the same as the second 222 number.
The next thing that stands out (happened with the 252) was that reslotting the Tachyon Detection Grid resulted in a different number than expected. I expected one of the two numbers already recorded, rather than ending up with a third number.
I decided to go back and check if the same thing happened with one of the middle numbers...
Is it a constant? 5.72 or 13.22 @162. 5.72 or -1.78 @252. Let me look at another. 5.72 or 13.22 @192. So yeah, it's off by a constant amount (outside of the quirk occurring @252).
Just to keep this fun, I want to point out something else I just observed.
So we're @192, right? 585.78's the number currently showing. Reslot the TDG and we get 580.06 (the 5.72 difference). You can keep removing it and adding it back - the number will be the same. Instead of removing it - move it to another slot...585.78 - ahem.
No, I can't even begin to imagine what the code looks like for the calculation that's taking place for SDR...lol.
Okay then, back to what I originally was hoping to look at here. I'm going to go with the highest number (hey, it's best for me - right? /cough) from the above data and see what I'm looking at here...
And that becomes problematic, eh? The gain at 252 is the same as at 222.
Hrmm, okay - so @125 Aux with 252 Sensors and the Deflector, the SDR is 690.78 - and - we know that 252 Sensors @125 Aux should provide 1.5 SDR per Sensors. So that's 378 SDR of the 690.78 we have listed. We know that the 125 Aux should be 1.2 SDR per Aux, giving us another 150 SDR. 528 SDR is what we should have without the Deflector. We actually have 527.81 SDR...which...is...close...enough.
So the Deflector is adding 162.97 SDR instead of 100 SDR @252 Sensors.
And, something becomes clear. The high number was the wrong number. Let's look at the low number instead.
Given the rounding that takes place within the game, that's close enough for me to call it a constant. Try it with the +7.5 number instead...and...no, it's not close enough - lol. Which makes that +7.5 even more bothersome...meh.
Let me check that constant against the math from back in March.
well, I am not sure exactly what is going on with the differences in SDR depending upon what order you equip consoles and deflector. Nonetheless, here is a table showing the results of my testing on this: SDR Equipping Variance Table. My testing shows you will get the highest bonus from the deflector by equipping it last (after all sensor consoles), assuming you want to use all of your sensor consoles.
I was also able to come up with a formula for a Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI which matches up with the highest bonus line in the table, and I believe may be along the same lines as your conclusion above Virusdancer. My formula is as follows:
Additional SDR from Steatlhsight Percentage Bonus = ItemBonus * Sensors + Item%Bonus * 10000
ItemBonus for Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI is 0.25 (seems arbitrary, but it fits the numbers)
Item%Bonus is the +% StealthSight in the item description at 0 Sensors, which for Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI is 1%
Incorporating that into the earlier formula for SDR, looks as follows:
SDR = (Base SDR + (Base SDR/100) * Sensors) * (1 + 0.02 * (Aux power - 50)) + (ItemBonus * Sensors + Item%Bonus * 10000)
Base SDR is 60 for science vessels, 20 otherwise
What does the Jem'Hadar deflector and/or space set have, that makes it far superior to any other type of deflector or set in terms of stealth detection?
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
What does the Jem'Hadar deflector and/or space set have, that makes it far superior to any other type of deflector or set in terms of stealth detection?
Not a case of sounding dumb in the least. It actually has a buff for Stealth Detection on the Deflector.
It's not an indirect boost to Sensors like you might find elsewhere, it's a boost to Stealth Detection.
Correct. The percentage seems so miniscule. 1 or 2%? How can that possibly be of any use? But it makes all the difference.
Which makes sense, canon-wise. In the DS9 episode, "Once More Unto The Breach," Martok's squadron of BOPs, on their way back to DS9, were cloaked but still being tracked by the Jem'Hadar, and a very real danger existed that the JH fleet would overtake them before reaching allied forces led by the Defiant.
I think I can shine some light on your Jemmy Deflector issue. If you look while on the space station, when you equip the deflector, it gives you a flat listing of 200 stealth detection. Take it off and it lists 0. I wouldn't be surprised if aux power plays a factor as well once you get into space.
It's not an indirect boost to Sensors like you might find elsewhere, it's a boost to Stealth Detection.
Awesome. Thanks for the very detailed information in both your and ricky's posts.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I believe those have a boost to the other end of the spectrum - a flat percentage boost to stealth skills. I presume it works similarly to +stealthsight.
Something else I noticed while browsing rep gear. The T5 Romulan Rep's Romulan Prototype Deflector has a 2% Stealth Detection bonus, the same as the Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XII. I'm not sure how long it's been there, because the wiki page for it makes no mention of the Stealth Det bonus.
Something else I noticed while browsing rep gear. The T5 Romulan Rep's Romulan Prototype Deflector has a 2% Stealth Detection bonus, the same as the Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XII. I'm not sure how long it's been there, because the wiki page for it makes no mention of the Stealth Det bonus.
Yeah, I'm curious if the +2% from it actually works like the +2%/+1% from the Jem...if the 2% is modified in the same way or not. Would be a simple case of stockpiling, buying it on Redshirt/Tribble to test...but yeah, not a test I'm going to run. Something I'm curious about though...some of the skill boosts would work better, and you're not looking at spending 200 Lobi for a Deflector.
Comments
What I'm trying to understand is where the 1% (or 1,5%) was based on. So far, I'm baffled. Because 1% of your SDR of 447,81 is 4,4781, right? Not 100, which is the actual difference shown.
Nor is it 1% of SDR+5000, as 1% of 5447,81=54,4781.
So it's either 1% of a much bigger number, or applied elsewhere entirely.
*vague nagging feeling at back of mind*
*checks yesterdays' calculations*
Now, there is a 10000 somewhere in these calculations Bort posted. If that were involved, that might work out: 1% of 10000 is 100...
In that case, the 1% and similar percentages might accidentally(?) be based on a (modified) version of that 10000?
That doesn't explain why reequipping the deflector gives a bonus of 132,97 instead of 100, but that might just be general borkedness and faulty calculation sequencing.
Edit: this actually might make sense. As Vonamicus also pointed out, it might indeed be another Strength
Value modifier, if you look at this formula:
5000 * (1 + (SDR / 10000))
And then imagine something like this:
5000 * (1 + (SDR / 10000)+1%)
It's also easy to imagine how sequence errors might creep in if there's a small typo in there somewhere. Eg.: (1+(SDR/10000+1%)) vs (1+(SDR/(10000+1%)).
Especially is the code is more xyz based, with 10000, and the others, being a value that can be called in different points of the calculation. So the code for [disequip] might contain an x where the code for [equip] contains a y. Or something like that. I've made similar errors in excel; took me ages to find out where the inconsistencies came from.
I'm thinking this is definitely true whether we have all the calculation info or not.
I too have noticed the staggered/delayed changes in the SDR readout with changes in equipment and ground to space. Eventually, by changing power levels and opening and closing the window, I was able to get the readout to stabilize at numbers consistent with the formula provided by Borticus for SDR.
12th Fleet
Fleet Executive Officer
Perception (StealthSight) = 5000 * (1 + (SDR/10000))
They forgot the 5000 * (1 + (X)) part of the formula. The 500,000/10,000 provided the 50...but that's not how the formula worked; so folks were getting 250001 Perception (StealthSight) and were able to see...everything.
They bumped the +50 StealthSight (which provided +1km) to +3km and pulled it out of the formula. EPtA1 is not giving you +150 SDR to give you that +3km. It's just giving you the +3km behind the scenes (maybe, lol).
Hell, maybe they changed the whole thing when they attempted to fix that. Was it a case that Hawk took that over from Bort?
Perception = StealthSight (via the formula)
Perception = 5000 * (1 + (SDR/10000))
That 100 difference?
5000 * (1 + (100/10000))
5000 * (1 + 0.01)
5000 * 1.01
The 1%...
347.81 + 1% (100) = 447.81
+1% StealthSight = +100 SDR
As far as the recalc issue - it's something that has to be done each time you zone. Can't remember if that's on respawns still or not. It was one of my big complaints before the change to Ker'rat, the issue with the camps I had was that there was no time for players to fix the calc/recalc issues taking place - basically folks attacking during a spawncamp were exploiting the broken calculations.
edit: This was before the fix for EPtA, so things may have changed with that.
Came to similar conclusions but got ninja'd :P
Edit: At this point I'd really like to know coding techniques, or have access to the source code involved. Neither ever going to happen, but still, it'd be pretty useful when figuring this stuff out.
SDR 119.4
Add Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI (+1% StealthSight) ---> SDR 244.15
12th Fleet
Fleet Executive Officer
Bold statement: the calculations in-game might be off. Or the displayed SDR.
I'm starting to suspect that some of the +1% calculations call a different value than the -1% calculations; one of them calling the value for SDR and one of them calling the value for the 10000. Or something.
I'm curious about what happens when you add and remove the deflector multiple times, without any other actions. Does it stabilise on 1 value, or does it keep increasing?
Science Vessel
125 Aux
252 Sensors
Mk XI Jem Deflector
690.78 SDR
I remove the Jem Deflector.
527.81 (a difference of 162.97 or 76.4% of what it was)
I slot it again, taking it back to 690.78 SDR. I remove one of the +30 Sensors.
645.78 is my new SDR.
Remove the Jem Deflector.
482.81 (162.97 is the difference again but it's 74.8% this time)
Reslot the Deflector, pull the remaining 3 +30 Sensors.
488.28 is my new SDR.
Remove the Jem Deflector.
347.81 (140.47 is the difference this time with it being 71.2%)
But wait, is that right? Let's reslot the 4x consoles and try again.
Reslotting the 4x consoles provides a SDR of 683.28 which is not the 690.78 we started with. Reslot the Deflector again, and...we're back at the 690.78 once more.
It's a PITA, it really is a PITA.
Let's try this again, eh?
Starting with 690.78 SDR as this posted started.
Remove Deflector: 527.81 SDR
Reslot a Sensor (remove and add): 527.81
162.97 difference...
Add Deflector: 690.78
Remove 1x Sensor: 645.78
Reslot Deflector: 638.28
Remove Deflector: 482.81
155.47 difference...
Previously it was the same difference at that step.
Add Deflector: 638.28
Remove 3x Sensor: 480.78
Reslot Deflector: 480.78
Remove Deflector: 347.81
132.97 difference...
A different difference than before as well.
Prior to the buff to EPtA and the subsequent fix that took place...each time you removed the Jem Deflector (regardless of whatelse was going on) - it would remove 100 when you first logged on, added 150 when you reslotted it, removed 150.
Obviously they've changed something there.
When you log in - it is still providing the +100, reslotting though - it's all up in the air because of whatever other changes have taken place.
They're based on the way that it used to work. Obviously, it no longer works that way.
Here was my post pointing out the issue with the Jem Deflector back in the March 8th Tribble notes where Bort offered his explanation about stealth...which was before the bump EPtA received with LoR, the subsequent bugs involved, and whatever resolutions/changes they made at that time.
My head hurts.
Would this be a good moment to bring this to the attention of the relevant dev?
In daily life, doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result is a sign of a troubled mind. In here, it's actually happening. And not just a one-or-the-other different, but different all the time...
As I've kind of mentioned, it's a PITA - it's borked.
No Deflector/no Consoles: 347.81
Add 4x Consoles and then Deflector: 690.78
Add Deflector and then 4x Consoles: 683.28
The numbers should be the same, but the order that you add items affects the displayed number.
I can't imagine what a jumbled mess the coding behind this must be.
If you remove the Deflector and add it back again (basically as if it were doing the Consoles first), yes - you're back at the 690.78 number.
A +7.5 difference...or...a +1.097646645591851071303126097647% difference.
Thing is, without the Deflector - it's 527.81...so obviously it's not a case of it adding +1%. However, it appears that in slotting it last - it's adding a ~1% of SDR beyond what it's already adding (which used to be +1.5% StealthSight/Perception - but is now 1.55% at that certain point).
It's just massively borked. It was borked to begin with...they borked it more buffing EPtA...they borked it even more trying to fix the borked EPtA.
Do you want some real fun? Something that's going to apply to far more people? Take a look at what happens with the Impulse Speed calculations when you utilize APO, APA, EM, EPtE (varying the order that you use them)...and then turn.
No consoles, add the Deflector (add/remove a Sensor) it's +7.5...
1 console, 2 consoles, 3 consoles, 4 consoles, add the Deflector (add/remove or reslot) it's +7.5...
52 to 125 Aux, doing the above...it's always +7.5 more SDR with the final shuffling.
280.23 SDR
+5.8% StealthSight
859.92
+579.69 SDR
690.78 SDR
+8.8% StealthSight
1570.47
+879.69 SDR
edit: And yes, I know that the Deflector states +1% Stealth Detection instead of +1% StealthSight..however, it functioned like Sensor Scan in the manner that it added to SDR previously.
12th Fleet
Fleet Executive Officer
That just leaves us with the weird stacking issues/reslotting business, lol.
When I'm not tired and slightly inebriated I'll see if I can make some numbers work in one of these formulae, but for now: good night
@125 Aux
109 Sensors - 313.50 SDR
+Deflector: 440.75 / 448.25
%Increase: 1.2725 / 1.3475
132 Sensors - 347.81 SDR
+Deflector: 480.78 / 488.28
%Increase: 1.3297 / 1.4047
162 Sensors - 392.81
+Deflector: 533.28 / 540.78
%Increase: 1.4047 / 1.4797
192 Sensors - 437.81
+Deflector: 585.78 / 593.28
%Increase: 1.4797 / 1.5547
222 Sensors - 482.81
+Deflector: 638.28 / 645.78
%Increase: 1.5547 / 1.6297
Note: I noticed something odd with the following one, so there's a second / where I removed the Tachyon Detection Grid (+22.9) and reslotted it. Needless to say, I was even more surprised by that result.
252 Sensors - 527.81
+Deflector: 690.78 / 683.28 / 685.06
%Increase: 1.6297 / 1.5547 / 1.5725
Before getting into trying to figure anything out (I'm rarely good at that, I usually type something without a clue as to its actual meaning and somebody else steps in and makes sense of it)...I want to point out something that stands out like a sore thumb to me.
From 132 Sensors on, the second number from one set is the first number from the next set when it comes to the %Increase.
The second number for 132 (which was +22.9 Sensors) is the same as the first number for 162 (which was +30 Sensors). Second number for 162 is the same as the first for 192, etc, etc, etc.
Even at 252, where unlike the previous numbers where reslotting a Sensor Probe resulted in +7.5 - instead we lost 7.5, that first 252 number is the same as the second 222 number.
The next thing that stands out (happened with the 252) was that reslotting the Tachyon Detection Grid resulted in a different number than expected. I expected one of the two numbers already recorded, rather than ending up with a third number.
I decided to go back and check if the same thing happened with one of the middle numbers...
162 Sensors - 392.81
+Deflector: 533.28 / 540.78
%Increase: 1.4047 / 1.4797
527.56...so yes, a third number again.
Is it a constant? 5.72 or 13.22 @162. 5.72 or -1.78 @252. Let me look at another. 5.72 or 13.22 @192. So yeah, it's off by a constant amount (outside of the quirk occurring @252).
Just to keep this fun, I want to point out something else I just observed.
So we're @192, right? 585.78's the number currently showing. Reslot the TDG and we get 580.06 (the 5.72 difference). You can keep removing it and adding it back - the number will be the same. Instead of removing it - move it to another slot...585.78 - ahem.
No, I can't even begin to imagine what the code looks like for the calculation that's taking place for SDR...lol.
Okay then, back to what I originally was hoping to look at here. I'm going to go with the highest number (hey, it's best for me - right? /cough) from the above data and see what I'm looking at here...
109 Sensors - 1.3475
132 Sensors - 1.4047
162 Sensors - 1.4797
192 Sensors - 1.5547
222 Sensors - 1.6297
252 Sensors - 1.6297
And that becomes problematic, eh? The gain at 252 is the same as at 222.
Hrmm, okay - so @125 Aux with 252 Sensors and the Deflector, the SDR is 690.78 - and - we know that 252 Sensors @125 Aux should provide 1.5 SDR per Sensors. So that's 378 SDR of the 690.78 we have listed. We know that the 125 Aux should be 1.2 SDR per Aux, giving us another 150 SDR. 528 SDR is what we should have without the Deflector. We actually have 527.81 SDR...which...is...close...enough.
So the Deflector is adding 162.97 SDR instead of 100 SDR @252 Sensors.
And, something becomes clear. The high number was the wrong number. Let's look at the low number instead.
109 Sensors - 1.2725 (0.2725 / 109 = 0.0025)
132 Sensors - 1.3297 (0.3297 / 132 = 0.00249772727272727272727272727273)
162 Sensors - 1.4047 (0.4047 / 162 = 0.00249814814814814814814814814815)
192 Sensors - 1.4797 (0.4797 / 192 = 0.0024984375)
222 Sensors - 1.5547 (0.5547 / 222 = 0.00249864864864864864864864864865)
252 Sensors - 1.6297 (0.6297 / 252 = 0.00249880952380952380952380952381)
Given the rounding that takes place within the game, that's close enough for me to call it a constant. Try it with the +7.5 number instead...and...no, it's not close enough - lol. Which makes that +7.5 even more bothersome...meh.
Let me check that constant against the math from back in March.
229 Sensors (229 * 0.0025 = 0.5725 + 1 = 1.5725)
@125 Aux, 229 Sensors = 343.5 SDR
The 125 Aux = 150 SDR
493.5 SDR
+157.25 = 650.75
Well then, I must have remembered incorrectly. I could have sworn, but I would have sworn wrong. It appears that 0.0025 applied back then as well.
Well then...I'm going for a smoke.
I was also able to come up with a formula for a Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI which matches up with the highest bonus line in the table, and I believe may be along the same lines as your conclusion above Virusdancer. My formula is as follows:
ItemBonus for Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI is 0.25 (seems arbitrary, but it fits the numbers)
Item%Bonus is the +% StealthSight in the item description at 0 Sensors, which for Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI is 1%
Incorporating that into the earlier formula for SDR, looks as follows:
Base SDR is 60 for science vessels, 20 otherwise
12th Fleet
Fleet Executive Officer
What does the Jem'Hadar deflector and/or space set have, that makes it far superior to any other type of deflector or set in terms of stealth detection?
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Not a case of sounding dumb in the least. It actually has a buff for Stealth Detection on the Deflector.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Jem%27Hadar_Space_Set
It's not an indirect boost to Sensors like you might find elsewhere, it's a boost to Stealth Detection.
Correct. The percentage seems so miniscule. 1 or 2%? How can that possibly be of any use? But it makes all the difference.
Which makes sense, canon-wise. In the DS9 episode, "Once More Unto The Breach," Martok's squadron of BOPs, on their way back to DS9, were cloaked but still being tracked by the Jem'Hadar, and a very real danger existed that the JH fleet would overtake them before reaching allied forces led by the Defiant.
Awesome. Thanks for the very detailed information in both your and ricky's posts.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Yeah, I'm curious if the +2% from it actually works like the +2%/+1% from the Jem...if the 2% is modified in the same way or not. Would be a simple case of stockpiling, buying it on Redshirt/Tribble to test...but yeah, not a test I'm going to run. Something I'm curious about though...some of the skill boosts would work better, and you're not looking at spending 200 Lobi for a Deflector.