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Regarding Stealth Detection
stardestroyer001
Member Posts: 2,615 Arc User
I'm curious as to one aspect of PvP: Stealth and stealth detection. I have a few questions:
- What can a player do to increase their stealth rating? (spec, consoles, boffs, etc)
- What can a player do to increase their Stealth Detection?
- How can one calculate the amount of stealth detection needed to overcome most cloaked ships' Stealth ratings and allow the player to see the cloaked ship?
- Are there any sort of cheese associated with either stealth or stealth detection that can skew the answers to the above?
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Post edited by stardestroyer001 on
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U can't do nothing
In the past, stheath detection was important, now with the romulan boffs that increase stealth, there is no point in spect your ship for detect them. The best u can do is use skills like gravity well for uncloack ships.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Borticus (a dev) was kind enough to post an explanation of the math behind stealth here. The simple formula is:
(Perception - Stealth) / 50 = Viewable Distance [in km]
For example, to see a player with 5000 stealth at a distance of 1 km, you would need to have 5050 perception. Higher perception and/or lower stealth means you can see them farther away; higher stealth and/or lower perception means you have to get closer to see them (or can't see them at all).
Perception is derived from your Stealth Detection Rating (SDR, also known as Stealth Sight) as follows:
Perception = 5000 + SDR / 2
Every ship starts out with 5000 base perception. Every two points of SDR increases perception by 1.
The easiest way to increase stealth rating is to increase your aux power. As Bort noted here, each unit of power in aux is +1 to your stealth rating. (e.g. 50 aux power = +50 stealth).
Another way to increase stealth rating is to spec into the Starship Stealth skill. This table (admittedly a bit old) implies that 100 points in the Starship Stealth skill is equal to +50 stealth rating. [9 ranks in Starship Stealth skill = 99 points in Starship Stealth skill]
There are other ways to improve your stealth rating such as Rom boffs, unfortunately I'm not as familiar with those. Someone else might be able to give you an answer regarding them.
As an aside, you can also try to decrease the perception of your enemies; AMS and Theta Radiation are examples of consoles that do this.
The easiest way to improve your SDR is to improve your aux power. Most ships receive +10 SDR for each 25 aux power. (e.g. 100 aux = +40 SDR; again, numbers are thanks to Bort) Science ships receive 3x the bonus SDR; they get +30 SDR for each 25 aux power. (100 aux = +120 SDR)
Another way to improve your SDR is to spec into the Starship Sensors skill. Unfortunately, I don't have good numbers for this.
A great ability against cloakers is the Science captain's Sensor Scan ability. It diminishes the stealth rating of all enemies near your target, as well as improving your own perception. (It also applies a -resistance debuff on enemies, to boot!)
Finally, there are a few consoles you can use to improve your SDR. Anything boosting the Starship Sensors skill will, in turn, boost your SDR. For example, a fairly useful console is the Tachyon Detection Field console, which comes with the Nebula refit. It provides a passive bonus to Sensors, and when activated improves StealthSight and Sensors skill. The Nebula retrofit also comes with a good console that can improve the entire team's SDR, but that console is locked to the ship.
As far as I know, everything affecting stealth or perception follows the math above. That said, there are probably things that are too strong/too weak; others can probably give you a better idea of what those are.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
EPtA1 provides 150 Perception.
EPtA1 also provides 5 Perception (boost from +26.2 Aux Power for non-Sci).
A VR Conn(TT +Accuracy/+Perception) DOFF has a 20% chance to add +100 Perception (as well as +5% Accuracy) - these can stack (3x VR, 20% chance to add +300 Perception and +15% Accuracy).
A Jem Mk XI Deflector adds 75 Perception.
6 in Sensors adds 63 Perception.
50 Aux (non-Sci) adds 10 Perception.
Astrophysicist provides 7.5 Perception.
That's up to 5610.5 Perception without a Sensor Scan or any Sensor Probe consoles while in a non-Sci boat.
vs. 5500 Stealth: 2.21km
vs. 5400 Stealth: 4.21km
vs. 5300 Stealth: 6.21km
vs. 5200 Stealth: 8.21km
vs. 5100 Stealth: 10.21km
vs. 5000 Stealth: 12.21km
(remember that 5 pips/100 singularity charge debuffs Stealth by 400)
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
I vote this as the best answer. Aux is the best thing and stacking these perception ratings on these pieces of gear will help out tremendously. As a sci I approve.
First off, a big thank you Renim for the wealth of information you've provided. It truly is appreciated!
Regarding the Nebula Refit console, does that console work while the player's ship is cloaked? ie, using that console can help me see other cloaked ships while I myself am cloaked?
Darn, and I sold my Suliban doff with that trait last night -.- Time to buy another one.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Can you "Over-cap" Aux, like you can "Over-cap" Weapon Power, to any significant level to continue to improve Stealth And/or Stealth Sight? (For example Using EPTA 1 +26.2 to Aux while at 125 Aux [Equaling 151.2 Aux])?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Have to weigh the pros and cons of running them for any particular build...
Test I
Myself: Federation, Galaxy-X Dreadnought
Starship stealth detection skill points: all the way up.
Power set at 100 aux (power went up to 119)
Cloak Offline
SDR: 129.32
Target: Romulan, Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer
No points in starship stealth
Power setting unknown (probably ~50)
Detection at 5.5km from cloaked target.
Test II
Myself:
Same as before;
EPtA activated this time.
SDR: 140.53
Target: Unchanged
Detection at 9.5km from cloaked target.
Test III
Myself:
Same as Test I;
EPtA and Aux Battery (with 1 Maintenance Engineer)
SDR: 145.53
Target: Unchanged
Detection at 9.5km from cloaked target.
Test IV
Myself:
Points unchanged
Cloak engaged (with 1 Technician, "Auxiliary power buff while cloaked")
Power set 100/15/15/70 (Aux power goes up to 104/70)
EPtA engaged (Aux power goes up to 130; SDR 140.53)
Target: unchanged
Detection at 9.5km from cloaked target.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Also, good to know that cloaking yourself has no effect on stealth detection. Sounds like my planned attack sub T'Varo might actually work...
Starship Sensors is 1.5 SDR per point.
Perception = 5000 * (1 + (SDR/10000))
1.5 SDR = 0.75 Perception
Starship Sensors is 0.75 Perception.
A UR Sensor Probe Mk XII (31.9 Starship Sensors) = 23.925 Perception
23.925 / 50 = 0.4785 km
(Perception - Stealth) / 50 = viewable range in km
12th Fleet
Fleet Executive Officer
1) Changing aux power level appears to affect the amount of SDR boost that a Sensor Probes console gives. This might be linked to...
2) Changing aux power level affects your SDR much more than the "linear" boost that Bort originally mentioned. I was in a science ship with ~140 SDR at 48 aux power, and when I went to 125 aux power my SDR went to ~340. (According to Bort's notes, this 77 additional aux power should only have added ~90 extra SDR.)
It's starting to look like aux power acts as a multiplier on the total SDR, much like its effects on other aux abilities. If this is true, I'm going to hypothesize that science ships simply have a higher base SDR than normal ships, which is scaled by aux power, instead of the increased (but still linear) SDR per aux power that Bort mentioned.
More testing is required. Can someone else verify my results?
Per my testing, auxiliary power gives a linear increases in the base ship SDR rating by plus or minus 2% per point (at 50 Auxiliary power, the base SDR rating is 20 for a standard ship and 60 for a science ship). However, sensors skill further increases the power adjusted SDR by 1% per point. That is why an underlying increase in auxiliary power results in a "non-linear" increase in total SDR.
Thus, per my example in the table, a Sci Ship with a base SDR of 60 and auxiliary power of 125 will have an adjusted base SDR of 150 (i.e., [2% x 75 increase in auxiliary power x 60 base ]+ 60 base). Sensors skill of level 9 increases the adjusted SDR by an additional 99% to 298.5 (i.e., 199% x 150). I suspect that you have a deflector or other item that is giving you a bonus to your Sensors skill, which is resulting in the 340 SDR.
12th Fleet
Fleet Executive Officer
Testing with Zark, my Snooper.
OLD Premise:
1.5 SDR per Starship Sensors
1.2 SDR per Aux (Sci)
0.4 SDR per Aux (non-Sci)
Astrophysicist (+10 Sensors), 9 Starship Sensors (+99 Sensors)
w/ Sci Vessel
@53/15 Aux (his min) & 109 Sensors: Expected SDR would be 63.6 (Aux) & 163.5 (Sensors) for 227.1 SDR. Actual listed SDR is 134.85.
The premise of 1.5 SDR per Starship Sensors is incorrect.
@125/100 Aux & 109 Sensors: Expected SDR would be 150.0 (Aux) & 163.5 (Sensors) for 313.5 SDR. Actual listed SDR is 313.5 SDR.
1.5 SDR per Starship Sensors is @125 Aux.
New Premise: The amount of SDR from Starship Sensors scales with Aux.
Add 4x VR Sensor Probes Mk XII (+120 Starship Sensors) @125 Aux, should result in +180 SDR. The new SDR listed after adding the four consoles is 493.5 SDR. 493.5 - 180 = 313.5...
1.5 SDR per Starship Sensors @125 Aux is confirmed.
Back to the @53 Aux, we can look at how much +SDR each Sensors is adding. 134.85 - 63.6 = 71.25 / 109 = 0.6536697247706422018348623853211 ( ahem ). Adding a single +30 console should take the SDR to 154.46...154.21 is the listed number (have to figure the 134.85 is thus a rounded number.
Let's take a look at how that scales, eh?
125 is 1.5 - but - what is 120?
@120 (109 Sensors) = 301.21 SDR (301.21 - 144 = 157.21 / 109 = 1.4422935779816513761467889908257)
Adding a +30 should take it to 344.48 or so. 344.45 is the listed value.
Scaling benefit to SDR from Starship Sensors based on Aux is confirmed.
What's it at @115?
@115 (109 Sensors) = 288.67 SDR (288.67 - 138 = 150.67 / 109 = 1.3822935779816513761467889908257)
New Premise: Sensors provides 0.012 SDR per Aux.
Let's look at the 53 Aux one again, eh?
109 * 53 * 0.012 = 69.324...nope, close, but nope.
Let's try a different number. @80 Aux...
109 * 80 * 0.012 = 104.64 + 96 = 200.64 Listed value is 202.63.
It's close, but it's not right. Of course now, there could easily be other rounding taking place that is throwing things off. Let's look at that last one to see the actual number.
202.63 - 96 = 106.63 / 109 = 0.97825688073394495412844036697248
@84 it's 212.32 SDR. 212.32 - 100.8 = 111.52 / 109 = 1.0231192660550458715596330275229
So yeah, I'm figuring that the Aux being displayed is being rounded. 0.012 SDR per Aux for each point of Starship Sensors "could" be the constant.
I don't have a toon that doesn't have Efficiency/Potential to perform better tests...meh.
NEW Premise:
0.012 SDR per Aux per Starship Sensors
1.2 SDR per Aux (Sci)
0.4 SDR per Aux (non-Sci)
It's in orange instead of green, because I can't completely confirm that.
http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/images/SDRTable.jpg
Note, at every power level the result is the same. Sensors skill adds 1% per point to the base Stealth Detection Rating which is determined by the ship type and the power level.
12th Fleet
Fleet Executive Officer
SDR = (Base SDR + 0.6 * Sensors) * (1 + 0.02 * (Aux power - 50))
Where base SDR is 60 for science vessels, 20 otherwise.
In other words, each point of Sensors adds +0.6 to your pre-scaled SDR. Each point in Aux above 50 is +2% to total SDR; each point missing from Aux under 50 is -2% to total SDR.
I'll have to do some more testing for myself later, but this formula does have the benefits of being simple to understand and surprisingly close to what we already know of aux-based powers like TSS and HE; these powers also display the +/-2% effect per aux power relationship.
EDIT: One moment while I digest Amicus's new numbers.
EDIT: The numbers match up perfectly! However, your interpretation would produce different results from mine on a non-science ship, since it happens that 0.6 * 99 ~= 60 on the science ship. Now, if only we had a non-science vessel to test it with...
(Also, amicus, how are you able to afford the respecs required for so many different trials with different ranks in sensors? I'd like to know
12th Fleet
Fleet Executive Officer
KDF Klingon SCi + B'Rel Retrofit
Character: 9 Starship Sensors Skill
Trait: Astrophysicist
Equipment:
Neutrono Deflector Mk XII with 35 Starship Sensors
Very Rare Sensor Probes Mk XII x3 with +30 Starship Sensors each
Aux Power - 125 cloaked, due to Technician DOFF for +25 Aux while cloaked. Otherwise would normally sit at 114 Aux.
DOFFs
Very Rare Conn Officers x3, the ones that provide a chance to boost perception and accuracy.
Technician for +25 Aux Power while cloaked.
Stealth Detection Rating Uncloaked: 152.57
Stealth Detection Rating Cloaked: 167
-- Note, using Emergency Power to Aux 2 or 3, SDR did not go up in the ship information pane when I activated them as well as watched the effects of these BOFF abilities when they were gone.
My friend and was in a B'Rel Retrofit also. We tested in a private Arena match.
He has 6 points into Stealth, usually moving at 100% while under cloak.
With just EPTA3 running, it was problematic detecting him as he was flying around my own cloaked B'Rel. Sometimes I'd get lucky and get a few seconds of detection at around 3-4k or less. If the Conn DOFFs proc'ed, I would be able to see his B'Rel at about 6k. The TacTm with DOFF proc was essential, and the procs do stack. But you are still dealing with a 20% chance for any of the DOFFs to proc, but at each of the DOFFs have a chance to proc. Best I had was a x3 of the Conn DOFF proc; All 3 hitting!
Combat Mechanics: With my Cloaked B'Rel, and if I took the opportunity to quickly fire, when I fired my Quantums his Shields did not go up while he was cloaked. Figured I'd throw this out there because I know many are thinking about this mechanic.
Fleet Veranus - To test out what a SCI Vessel can do in Stealth Detection Rating (SDR)
So, with Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XII, 4 (instead of 3 when doing B'Rel) Very Rare Sensor Probe Consoles Mk XII (30 Sensors each):
-- Aux Power at 120
With 0 Sensor Probe Consoles but JH Deflector installed, and no EPTA2: SDR was 571.59, with EPTA2 it was 583
With 4 Sensor Probe Consoles with JH Deflector installed, and no EPTA2: SDR was 775, with EPTA2 it was 793
Again, tested with my same friend from earlier. The results as the numbers already showed were quite different from my B'Rel attempt.
With the 4 Sensor Probe Consoles and with EPTA2 running I was able to detect at about 7-9k range. **If** the TacTeam DOFFs kicked, I was able to detect his B'Rel at 12k.
========================
I also wanted to see if the KDF Carriers reaped the same benefit as SCI Vessels. Turns out they do. Again, using the same Jemmy deflector and Sensor Probes swapped in...
Vo'Quv
With 0 Sensor Probe Consoles but JH Deflector installed, and no EPTA3: SDR was 530.83, with EPTA3 it was 583.
With 4 Sensor Probe Consoles and JH Deflector installed, and no EPTA3: SDR was 710.88, with EPTA3 it was 793.
Kar'Fi - 114 Aux Power
With 0 Sensor Probe Consoles but JH Deflector installed, and no EPTA2: SDR was 541.06, with EPTA2 it was 568.
With 4 Sensor Probe Consoles and JH Deflector installed, and no EPTA2: SDR was 750.58, with EPTA2, it was 793.
Some interesting data there Warmaker. Your first set of tests all fit nicely with Renimalt's formula modified for non-sci ships as follows:
Where Base SDR is 60 for science vessels, 20 otherwise.
Your Base SDR B'Rel Retrofit = 20
Your Sensors = 234, that is
+10 (Astrophysicist Trait)
+90 (+30 Starship Sensors Consoles x 3)
+35 (Neutrino Deflector Array)
Formula Result SDR = 152.30
Your Result = 152.57
Formula Result SDR = 167
Your Result = 167
Exact match there!
StealthSight Adds Unknown Factor to Formula:
On the other hand, Warmaker's tests with the Mk XII Jem'Hadar deflector throw a big loop in the formula. The deflector says it gives a +2% bonus to "StealthSight". However, Warmaker's numbers show much bigger than a 2% bonus to SDR. :eek:
The bonus does not appear linear, there is some twist in the calculation for the "StealthSight" effect on SDR. My math is not up to the task. However, I can add some more test figures with a more vanilla build than Warmaker's.
My Base SDR Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit (Nebula) = 60
My Sensors = 99 (just skill, no trait or other bonus)
Aux Power = 50
Resulting SDR (both in game and in formula) = 119.4
Add Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI (+1% StealthSight) ---> SDR 244.15
Add 20.6 to Sensors (console) ---> SDR 256.53
Add another 20.6 to Sensors
> SDR 274.06
Add another 20.6 to Sensors
> SDR 291.59
Add another 20.6 to Sensors
> SDR 309.12
Add Change Aux Power to 75 ----> SDR 393.57
Add Change Aux Power to 100 ---> SDR 478.02
For Comparison Tachyon Detection Grid adds a total of 42.9 to Sensors and 2.5% Stealth Sight. Activating Tachyon Detection Grid increases the original 119.4 SDR to 547.47. Adding the Mk XI Jem'Hadar deflector to that yields an SDR of 682.94.
I believe the StealthSight effect on the formula could be derived from these numbers, but the math escapes me.
12th Fleet
Fleet Executive Officer
Jem Mk XI lists +1%. And it does, when you log in/often when you zone/sometimes when you respawn. If you reslot it, though - it gives +1.5%. Go on, log in with it already slotted - look at your SDR. Reslot it - look at your SDR. It's possible that something like that is going on with the Jem Mk XII as well. A possible scenario where having gone to ground and back to space has acted as reslotting or simply slotting it after being logged in to do the test provided a higher number.
I've mentioned here and there since March that the Jem Mk XI is bugged like that - never picked up the Jem Mk XII to test if it had similar issues.
So in other words, even though skill points make a difference, it's the Jem'Hadar deflector that boosts those numbers past the 130-150 SDR range. (During my tests, I'm not sure if I was running two Mk XII Blue Sensor Probes consoles.)
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As someone mentioned earlier, Science Vessels also have a huge boost for detection. I confirmed it when I did my tests initially in a B'Rel, then jumped into my Fleet Veranus with the same character. The Jemmy deflector plays a big role, but the Science Vessel on its own was better than the non-Science Vessel.
But yes, the JH deflector is what sends it soaring in detection. Sci Vessel + JH Deflector is a major stealth detector. With the Fleet Veranus equipped so with 4 Very Rare Mk XII Sensor Probes, and using EPTA2, I detected my friend who was in a B'Rel out to 7-9k range. If the TacTeam Doff procs, I saw him out at 12k range.
The TT doff if it procs, gives perception.
Perception is the huge modifier for detection. It's what lets you see far.
===============
On another note, the Romulans have a very nice possibility for detection. The Ha'nom series of ships are Science Vessels. And they can Cloak. Do the math! Not even the T'Varo and B'Rel, with their ability to fire torps, mines, and abilities while still cloaked, will never have that ability to have massive detection and remain in cloak.
Also, as I mentioned too, the Vo'Quv and Kar'Fi are able to detect just like the Veranus. I have not tested the other carriers yet. It should be safe to say the Recluse & Atrox will have the same benefit. But I'm very curious to see if the JHDC does also. It does have Target Subsystem and Sensor Analysis, but because it is such a TAC & ENG oriented Carrier, I wasn't confident it would have the same abiilty as Sci Vessels and Vo'Quv/Kar'Fi.
Edit3: Wrong maths incoming, from a person who should stay away from exact sciences. Pursue to rambling calculations at own risk, they are most likely all wrong.
So ehm, the percentage for what the stealthsight adds is based on the total perception number, or something? The SDR+5000 number?
I'm TRIBBLE at running numbers, as I tend to lose track of what I did or did not include, and my calculations ramble on without rigor, but my numbers loosely fit that...
Would you get something like:
((Base SDR + (Base SDR/100) * Sensors) * (1 + 0.02 * (Aux power - 50))+5000)*A
With A being the percentage of StealthSight added, expressed as 1,015, for example?
If so, please rename A to something appropriate, btw.
The kind of numbers I get when doing that do seem to work when contrasted with Stealth numbers, as used in Borticus' post...
Edit: Oh. Little more complicated than that. It was bound to be.
Bort's post on StealthSight
Edit2:
Trying again like the stubborn fool I am.
Total Perception= (5000*(1+(Base SDR + (Base SDR/100) * Sensors) * (1 + 0.02 * (Aux power - 50))/10000))*A
With A still being the percentage StealthSight modifier, expressed as 1,015 for 1,5%, for example. Does that sound close? And can somebody run that against the numbers we/you have? Cause I'm close to being lost, here.
Edit3:
Nevermind, I'm probably completely wrong. Can't make that formula match any of tested numbers above, even though I still think the theory looks fine. I shouldn't do maths. I'll leave my ramblings up, in case somebody might salvage anything.
(In-Game Description = "+1% SteatlhSight")
Normal SDR.....119.4.....131.78...144.15....156.53.....168.90
Add JH Mk XI...244.15....256.53...274.06....291.59.....309.12
% Increase......104%......95%......90%.......86%........83%
Aux Power......50.........75........100
Normal SDR....168.90.....253.35.....337.80
Add JH Mk XI..309.12.....393.57.....478.02
% Increase.....83%........55%.........42%
I surmise that the bonus from the Jem'Hadar deflector and Tachyon Detection Grid is another "strength factor" variable for which Borticus did not give us the formula.
12th Fleet
Fleet Executive Officer
I login on my Snooper.
SDR = 447.81.
I remove the Deflector (Mk XI).
347.81 (which is the 1%)
I reslot the Deflector.
480.78 (which is not 1%)
I slot a Sensor Probe (+30).
525.78
I remove the Sensor Probe.
488.28 (which is not the 480.78 that it was before slotting the Sensor Probe)
So I logout. I login in again.
447.81 again.
I slot the +30 Sensor again.
525.78
Remove it.
488.28
Remove the Deflector.
347.81
Add the Deflector again.
480.78
Slot the Sensor again.
525.78
Remove the Sensor again.
488.28
The calculation/recalculation is very problematic with regard to what's listed as I mentioned earlier.
Logout/Login.
447.81
Go to Ground/Station. Back to normal Space.
480.78
It's still off...because that's how broken this particular calculation is.
So I log on with another toon (totally non-Snooper).
134.23
Remove the Deflector.
34.23
Reslot the Deflector.
150.23
Slot a Mk I (+3.8) Sensor.
151.01
Remove it.
151.17
It used to be much simpler, like I said. All you had to do was go to Ground/Space and it would reslot everything. The Deflector provided +150 SDR instead of +100 SDR. You didn't have to reslot the Sensor consoles again. Cryptic changed something along the way, where you've basically got to shuffle everything.
Want to know where it gets worse? So the non-Snooper goes to Sector. Then back to normal Space.
134.23 again...reslot the Deflector again for 150.23...flip the Sensor console again for 151.17...
It is massively borked...