Sorry it took so long to get back to this, work was hell...
There's also another problem with your assumption , to give the threat of Romulan Republic raids credibility a threat/s must be made. If such threats are made then suspicion will already be placed on the Republic when they are carried out. If they make no threats then it's pointless because then the other groups will just shrug it off as you say a rogue group so there was nothing either faction could have done politically to prevent this anyways.
So either you're making threats that will come back to bite you in the rear or you're of no threat and therefore lack any political pull.
Besides lets be honest do really think D'tan would attempt something as treacherous as this? D'tan even said lies and deception are against his beliefs , I doubt he would be up to the task if such a situation presented itself.
Unless...everything D'tan has said up to this point is facade and he's been lying to everyone including us about his goals and personality.
International politics don't work this way now on Earth, why would we expect outright statements and suggestions be made when the evidence for this calculus is sitting right there in the face of the Federation and Klingons planners.
In other words, D'tan and the Republic don't need to make an explicit threat or state one. It's right there for everyone to see.
Further, D'tan doesn't have to lie. It's not even treachery. If you invite the snake into your bed and then roll over on it, who's fault is it that it bites you? Likewise, the Federation and Klingons accepted these ships into their space, if they then go and break the treaty with the Republic, it is not the Republic or its Commanders who are being treacherous, but they are.
It is a form of the old diplomatic act of the Hostage Exchange. The rules for this type of exchange are quite old and quite clear, and are ones both the Klingons and Federation would recgonize. While it is not practiced actively today in the classic sense, much of our internation policy was a form of it (the MAD policy of the Cold War is, at its root, a hostage exchange).
I admit it would be a blow to the Romulan psyche but not to the extent you're implying. The entire Romulan senate was murdered did the the Romulans just curl up into a ball and die? No , I would wager they barely batted an eye lid at it. With all the back stabbing in the Romulan Senate I would expect the government would actually be somewhat flexible to compensate for the constant changes in government.
Not to the extent I am implying?
I really really hope this isn't stepping on any forum rules but: have you STUDIED Japanese history? Long story short, many historians think that the Japanese people were severly scarred by the loss of WW2. To say that the Romulan people wouldn't be HUGELY impacted by this is... unfathomable. Especially considering that they ALREADY carry psycological scars from the Sundering to this day.
Further, when you have a unstable political leadership, do you know what grows up to compensate for it, to maintain stability and continuing to continue to run day to day affairs? The beauracracy. Beauracracy is by its nature highly centralized (I know of no country on the planet that has a decrentralized national beauracracy), highly inflexible to change (especially when it comes as a result of overmuch change) AND tends to be incapable of moving.
In the Romulans Star Empire where would the heart of all the beauracracy have been? Where would all the support methods for softening the changes of power and political backstabbing have been? The same place the Senate met, the military had its headquarters and the Tal Shiar based operations off of: Romulus.
Boom, all that is GONE with the Hobbes disaster.
There is no beaucracy now to absorb the loss, all their methods for losing the Senate and adapting simply disappear and are thrown into chaos. In a highly centralized Empire, local and provincial beaucrats have very little real influence and cannot make major decisions, that all rests in the capitol. All that is simply gone.
The reason the Empire fell to chaos is not simply because of the loss of the Praetor and Senate. You're absolutely right that their loss would be easily able to be overcome (and had been in the past, as witness of the events in Nemesis). But Hobbes destroyed not just the government, but also the beaucracy that supported it, the economic heart of the Empire, the command center for the military and operational command for the Tal Shiar. In one fell swoop all the aspects of Romulans government were eradicated. There is nothing but local governors to pick of the peices, and what central government figures happened to be out of system at the time.
Ah unless I'm mistaken TOS didn't show us what the common people think like either. TOS just showed us another branch of the military. The closest we have to the civilians was in the TNG episode Unification. Granted they were rather peaceful air heads but I would argue that these people wouldn't represent the majority of the populous but were odd ball dissidents.
They did not show us directly, but the Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident" gives a much different view of what non-military officers do with their lives. It doesn't come off as a always-in-fear fascist state we see in TNG, but again comes off more in the "we are more alike than not in our lives" that was the constant refrain of TOS Romulans.
Admittedly Romulan information is vague and I'm sure the books are good like you say but let us not forget that the TV series is the Romulans most of us expected and wanted , not Romulans from obscure books.
"My Enemy, My Ally" and "The Romulan Way" are not obscure books, and were, in fact, so popular with Trekkies that they wanted them officially canonized. Nor is the Vulcan's Soul trilogy obscure, as they are part of the ongoing Star Trek novel-verse stories.
And here's the thing, Cryptic clearly used them to craft their story in STO. The central claim to legitimacy the Republic claims, with an entire episode around it, is finding the Sword of the Raptor's Star. Which is stated to be a S'harien blade lost in the Sundered's Journey from Vulcan to Romulus. S'harien was a figure created in "The Romulan Way", as is another historical Romulan figure that is referenced by Crytpic, that of S'task, who is the father of the Romulan people, the one who led them into exile. S'task was not just featured in "The Romulan Way" however, he is a major figure in the Vulcan's Soul trilogy as well (which has HUGE sections telling the story of the Sundering from a first hand account). Yes, I will grant they have never been mentioned in the TV shows and movies, but the TV shows and movies are not the only thing Cryptic draws on for their content (which is apparent if you just spend some time looking around). They certainly made it more central to the Romulans than they have other groups, but that is because it so useful to help flesh out the Romulan culture, which has less development spent on it than the Cardassians or Bajorans.
There's a lot of unknowns here which really bugs me but I'll try to make what I can of it.
We do know Vulcans were violent and still are. In the TOS episode All our yesterdays we get a glimpse of what Vulcan were like before Surak. This is the closest to what I believe Romulans came from a Vulcan untainted by Surak's beliefs. Even in the Ponn Farr Spock was willing to kill his closest friend showing that Vulcans still have said violent traits bottled up inside.
Now when we watch Romulans from the series they seem to be calm and reserved I don't know if something changed between Romulans from then and now but originally I think it's safe to say Romulans were violent.
Why are they cool and reserved when they should be violent that is the million dollar question. Do they have some sort of mental control to keep them in line? Is it Biological? Have they mutated? Is it environmental?...So many questions so few answers *sigh*.
Though I will say this much the Romulans in STO seem way to friendly for Romulans in my mind.
Romulans are a violent people even STO acknowledges this to some extent. Look what D'tan uses as a symbol to unite the Romulans not a book or an ancient farm tool but a sword. A symbol , of violence , of conquest , of past glories and I believe that's the Romulans people want to see not a group of pacifist librarians.
You recognize that the Romulans do not seem to be inherantly violent, which seems at odd with what is said about pre-Surak Vulcan. Would this not be further evidence that Surak was wrong? Or rather, that there is more to it than initially meets the eye.
One thing the Rihannsu series and the Vulcan's Soul series address is this, and its firmly based in core Star Trek lore. In Star Trek we know Vulcan to be a relatively resource poor, highly arid, and quite inhospitable world. Now, what do we know about those type of envroments from looking at Earth civilization? They tend to lend themselves to highly competative and highly insular in-groups and out-groups that are often violent with one another. Add on some philisophical differences, religious differences, and racial differences (we know that Vulcans come in "white" and "black" varietes) and you have an instant recipe for long term violence (I would cite, for example, the Middle East and Central Asia as examples of similar circumstances).
Romulus, on the other hand, is ANYTHING but arid, being shown constantly as an almost ideal class-M world, with rain and bodies of water. Add in Remus with its ridiculous mineral wealth, and a long time spent on pre-warp starships traveling a reletavistic speed to break down former cultural and racial bounderies, and you demolish the recipe for internal violence that was on Vulcan. The Vulcans, as a people, had a need to be violent, so that they could survive on a harsh world. The Romulans had no such need once they settled down. Did they still have violence? Probably. If you accept the Rihannsu and Vulcan's Souls series, they absolutely did, but it was never the same as it was on Vulcan.
As a final note: I am loving the conversation and thank everyone for keeping it civil!
As a final note: I am loving the conversation and thank everyone for keeping it civil!
It's been an intriguing discussion and you bring up some interesting points about competition for resources I would have liked to discuss it further and I do have some counter points but I just don't have the energy to write another hour long post so I think I'll bow out for now.:P
Now we can only hope at least one of the moderators flag this for a dev to read now that the fans have rather thoroughly dissected this in a point/counter-point format with a lot of details and references And then hope they get off their sorry asses and make use of it for the future
You recognize that the Romulans do not seem to be inherantly violent, which seems at odd with what is said about pre-Surak Vulcan. Would this not be further evidence that Surak was wrong? Or rather, that there is more to it than initially meets the eye.
One thing the Rihannsu series and the Vulcan's Soul series address is this, and its firmly based in core Star Trek lore. In Star Trek we know Vulcan to be a relatively resource poor, highly arid, and quite inhospitable world. Now, what do we know about those type of envroments from looking at Earth civilization? They tend to lend themselves to highly competative and highly insular in-groups and out-groups that are often violent with one another. Add on some philisophical differences, religious differences, and racial differences (we know that Vulcans come in "white" and "black" varietes) and you have an instant recipe for long term violence (I would cite, for example, the Middle East and Central Asia as examples of similar circumstances).
Romulus, on the other hand, is ANYTHING but arid, being shown constantly as an almost ideal class-M world, with rain and bodies of water. Add in Remus with its ridiculous mineral wealth, and a long time spent on pre-warp starships traveling a reletavistic speed to break down former cultural and racial bounderies, and you demolish the recipe for internal violence that was on Vulcan. The Vulcans, as a people, had a need to be violent, so that they could survive on a harsh world. The Romulans had no such need once they settled down. Did they still have violence? Probably. If you accept the Rihannsu and Vulcan's Souls series, they absolutely did, but it was never the same as it was on Vulcan.
As a final note: I am loving the conversation and thank everyone for keeping it civil!
Worth noting also may be the anthropological theory that concepts of divinities may be influenced by the local environment. As many deities are personifications of various natural forces, this does seem to be at least implied. In ancient Mesopotamia, the flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates was unpredictable, and could happen at any time with little or no warning. Flooding was a common source of anxiety and disaster. The Mesopotamian deities were likewise unpredictable to the point of ethical capriciousness, and among them were personifications of natural disaster, such as Pazuzu. In Egypt, on the other hand, the inundation of the Nile is an extremely regular and predictable event. The deities of the Egyptians were far less chaotic than those of the Mesopotamians. This is but one example which supports the theory. Others include the volcanic situation in southeastern Europe, with eruptions and earthquakes. The Graeco-Roman gods and goddesses were also rather ethically questionable, punishing humans for being humans at one point and rewarding them for the self-same humanity at another point (not unlike certain other more well-known myths). If the environment on Romulus were fairly orderly, at least in the more popular areas for settlement, the likelihood is high that their religions would be less chaotic than those of a desert planet full of volcanoes like Vulcan.
seems this has run its course.. pity but it was fun and thx to all the participants we scored a forum miracle and kept it productive, constructive, and flame free
seems this has run its course.. pity but it was fun and thx to all the participants we scored a forum miracle and kept it productive, constructive, and flame free
Clearly more evidence that we Rihannsu aren't inherently a violent people. :P
But what if youd rather take over the Tal Shiar and use that power base to exterminate the Elachi from within? Or sign on with the Empress to not only restore the empire but to purge douchenozzles like hakeev?
... I want some choices, I want the ability to take different roads.
While I agree that'd be cool, expecting it in a game like this is wishful thinking. Get a tabletop gaming group together, pick a system, and make your own. From Cyptic/PWE's point of view, the amount of work it'd take to allow that big of a branch and support the whole story just can't be justified.
... climbing the ladder of a SS style organization
... joining the "Legitimate Government" ie the Empire
... do like many Klingons, fight for glory, power and fame Vice-Admiral of the Romulan Star Empire
Each of those choices requires resources comparable to what was put into this latest expansion. Just sayin'.
BTW, didn't realize until after I'd posted this how late I was coming into the discussion. Quite an interesting thread, and as others mentioned, very civil. It's refreshing.
"You Iconians just hung a vacancy sign on your asses and my foot's looking for a room!"
--Red Annorax
seems this has run its course.. pity but it was fun and thx to all the participants we scored a forum miracle and kept it productive, constructive, and flame free
I think we beat the topic to death in Beta. Stahl said "That's the story we are telling". regardless of how nonsensical most of it is.
It's a single-player game with some multiplayer elements. Simple example: if it was a multiplayer, persistent-universe game, the Elachi would become a presence that we would all encounter as we went into those corners of the space. Instead they are only encountered in the single-player campaign missions. Nobody encounters them in the persistent universe, because they arent in this universe. The multiplayer game space is just a lobby for the single-player campaigns.
Romulans are designed for the single-player game. They do not have a role in the multiplayer end-game universe and are just playable races for Fed and KDF in the multiplayer part of the game. There is no Romulan PVP, no Romulan fleets and starbases, etc. If this were a multiplayer game with a persistent living universe, Cryptic would have gone the opposite direction and made Romulans into an equal faction with their own end-game presence. But it isnt and they werent.
It's a single-player game with some multiplayer elements. Simple example: if it was a multiplayer, persistent-universe game, the Elachi would become a presence that we would all encounter as we went into those corners of the space. Instead they are only encountered in the single-player campaign missions. Nobody encounters them in the persistent universe, because they arent in this universe. The multiplayer game space is just a lobby for the single-player campaigns.
Well, they could effectively 'fix' that by adding Elachi 'deep space encounters' to the Tau Dewa sector space map (like they have KDF DSEs in Frd Sectors, Cardassian in the Bajoran sectors; and Romulans in the Romulan sectors) but in the end, I don't think are/were happy with the DSE mechanic as it currently exists in STO, and while they haven't removed them from the sector space areas I listed above; I don't think they are bothering to add DSE instances to new sector space areas they are creating.
It all comes down to themepark vs sandbox style MMOs. For sci-fi:
EVE Online (Sandbox style) - no real PvE story content or quests to speak of. Areas you can go to find NPC pirates/wormhole invaders to destroy and get loot from; or arteriods to mine' planets to setup resource factories, etc. But primary gameplay revolves around player vs player and rather consequential PvP.
STO (definite themepark style) - with scripted 'rides' (the storyline quests); and other repeatable scripted content that constitutes the bulk of the player experience (and players can create their own themepark tpe stories for themselves and others to play.) PvP exists, but it's mostly an afterthought with little to no consequences and PvE style rewards for the victors.
There's pros and cons to both approaches (and some player prefer one more than the other); but what you ultimately describe would only be the case in STO was a 'sandbox' style MMO (or they added a true sandbox element that the game doesn't have in any respect atm.)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Well, they could effectively 'fix' that by adding Elachi 'deep space encounters' to the Tau Dewa sector space map
The lack of Elachi encounters arent a problem they are simply an at-hand example. Romulans were designed for a single-player game, all the stuff that's missing from them are for the multiplayer parts of the game. Cryptic gives clear preference to the single-player elements all the time, all over the place--leveling mechanics, combat engagement models, lack of a shared persistent storyline, everything. STO is fundamentally a single-player game. There's not even room for sandbox or theme park, its not even an MMORPG.
I wish some of you guys would channel this discussion into some Foundry missions. I've been reading this thread and there are tons of great story ideas and concepts. Personally I don't mind the Cryptic storyline, but I'm also the type to accept whatever an author wants me to accept for however long they have my attention, so if a Foundry author says "in this mission, you are a Tal Shiar spy within the Republic" or "in this mission, the Republic never existed and you are an officer in the Star Empire military" I'm totally cool with that.
The Foundry can be a great tool for putting out those alternate storylines you want to see.
I miss the old Romulans. I agree the Tal'Shiar isn't the Romulan Star Empire, in fact though out TNG era there were plenty of stories about the RSE and Tal'Shiar clashing over philosophies. Some of the best stories, like where Bashir was on Romulas, you really had no idea who the good guy or the bad guy was, even right until the very end when they lay it all down for you. I fly IRW ships, not Bajor Online RRW! I want my passionate, emotional Vulcans, borderline psychotic Romulans that have very good reasons not to trust anyone.
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
I agree they really dropped the ball by ignoring the Tal'shiar vs Romulan Military rivalry. Look at the Face of the enemy episode there was wonderful chemistry between the Tal'Shiar and the Military. Neither side trusting the other and each trying to assert it's power over the other. Just imagine how much fun it would have been if you had to choose between playing a , Tal Prai'ex , Praetorian , or Tal'shiar agent.
Where do your loyalties lie Romulan? To the greater good of the Empire? To the Imperial House hold? To the Emperor or Praetor? or to the senate and Romulan people?
These are the kinds of questions that should be asked not do you want to ally with the Federation of planets or Klingons. Who cares about them they're not Romulan , it should be about being part of Romulan culture not a concubine to alien powers.
The real Romulans have gone off to Risa and gotten sunglasses and flowers in their hair, so their special little snowflake looks like everyone else's special little snowflake.
Well, they could effectively 'fix' that by adding Elachi 'deep space encounters' to the Tau Dewa sector space map (like they have KDF DSEs in Frd Sectors, Cardassian in the Bajoran sectors; and Romulans in the Romulan sectors) but in the end, I don't think are/were happy with the DSE mechanic as it currently exists in STO, and while they haven't removed them from the sector space areas I listed above; I don't think they are bothering to add DSE instances to new sector space areas they are creating.
It all comes down to themepark vs sandbox style MMOs. For sci-fi:
EVE Online (Sandbox style) - no real PvE story content or quests to speak of. Areas you can go to find NPC pirates/wormhole invaders to destroy and get loot from; or arteriods to mine' planets to setup resource factories, etc. But primary gameplay revolves around player vs player and rather consequential PvP.
STO (definite themepark style) - with scripted 'rides' (the storyline quests); and other repeatable scripted content that constitutes the bulk of the player experience (and players can create their own themepark tpe stories for themselves and others to play.) PvP exists, but it's mostly an afterthought with little to no consequences and PvE style rewards for the victors.
There's pros and cons to both approaches (and some player prefer one more than the other); but what you ultimately describe would only be the case in STO was a 'sandbox' style MMO (or they added a true sandbox element that the game doesn't have in any respect atm.)
How unfortunate the only sandbox game out there has a real time skill training thing where you can never catch up to anyone else, and such a slow manufacturing process it'll take you months just to get a ship that's viable in PVP and then you lose it in seconds. This game is so slow I fell asleep while playing it once.
In Eve Online it takes 2 months to get a ship, and 2 minutes to lose it.
In StarCraft it takes 2 seconds to build something, and 2 minutes to lose it.
Why the extremes? Where's the middle ground? 2 months <
>2 seconds.
Who's in charge of the gaming industry? What's your operating number? Boring conversion anyways.
How unfortunate the only sandbox game out there has a real time skill training thing where you can never catch up to anyone else, and such a slow manufacturing process it'll take you months just to get a ship that's viable in PVP and then you lose it in seconds. This game is so slow I fell asleep while playing it once.
In Eve Online it takes 2 months to get a ship, and 2 minutes to lose it.
In StarCraft it takes 2 seconds to build something, and 2 minutes to lose it.
Why the extremes? Where's the middle ground? 2 months <
>2 seconds.
Who's in charge of the gaming industry? What's your operating number? Boring conversion anyways.
Yeah but in Eve Online that where the fun start, you are careful which sector of space you fly your ship. Everything about if was such a Challenge and you get Rewarded for it. I remember when eve first came out and I bought my first battleship, not like the once we have in this game. I felt such an Accomplishment of Satisfaction, because its had no weapons and I had friend escort me from 12 system to get to our base of operation. The cost of loosing a ship in both PvP and pve makes you take the Extra Precaution. There the game felt like real Sci-fi game, because the size of the ship matter and what role your ship play in. A Squadron of Interceptors will bring down any battleships or Dreadnought. Dreadnought where for use for Stationary targets such as station. One can simple just pick up a ship and say I can kill anything. Space battle in eve is like real life battle where ECM and ECCM (electronic countermeasure) electronic warfare. And I do believe that too was in startrek but we are yet to see that in sto.
"You ask why we give our ships computer normal emotions. Do you really want a warship incapable of loyalty?"
EVE isnt the only sandbox space combat game. Well, it is if you are talking about MASSIVE MORPGs, I suppose.
Eve is only a sandbox to guild leaders and multi-boxers, for everyone else it's your standard grind-mission grind-mining themepark MMORPG..... where you lose your ship you spend the last month grinding up to a guild leader or multi-boxer.
I wish some of you guys would channel this discussion into some Foundry missions. I've been reading this thread and there are tons of great story ideas and concepts. Personally I don't mind the Cryptic storyline, but I'm also the type to accept whatever an author wants me to accept for however long they have my attention, so if a Foundry author says "in this mission, you are a Tal Shiar spy within the Republic" or "in this mission, the Republic never existed and you are an officer in the Star Empire military" I'm totally cool with that.
The Foundry can be a great tool for putting out those alternate storylines you want to see.
I see what you're saying, and some probably will start making good stories in the foundry... it just isnt the same tho. STO is effectively an "official product" they screwed the pooch this time and really need to fix it in the future imo. No I dont expect em to but as a wise Minbari once said, "When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them. They can still continue to do it, but the truth is where it needs to be."
I agree they really dropped the ball by ignoring the Tal'shiar vs Romulan Military rivalry. Look at the Face of the enemy episode there was wonderful chemistry between the Tal'Shiar and the Military. Neither side trusting the other and each trying to assert it's power over the other. Just imagine how much fun it would have been if you had to choose between playing a , Tal Prai'ex , Praetorian , or Tal'shiar agent.
Where do your loyalties lie Romulan? To the greater good of the Empire? To the Imperial House hold? To the Emperor or Praetor? or to the senate and Romulan people?
These are the kinds of questions that should be asked not do you want to ally with the Federation of planets or Klingons. Who cares about them they're not Romulan , it should be about being part of Romulan culture not a concubine to alien powers.
Romulans were designed for a single-player game, all the stuff that's missing from them are for the multiplayer parts of the game. Cryptic gives clear preference to the single-player elements all the time, all over the place--leveling mechanics, combat engagement models, lack of a shared persistent storyline, everything. STO is fundamentally a single-player game. There's not even room for sandbox or theme park, its not even an MMORPG.
Frankly its one of the things I like about STO. The fact you move from story to story is a big change from story grindgrindgrindgrind story grindgrindgrindgrind story. That said, they got lazy with Romulans and dropped the ball hard. Theres really no 2 ways about that. @all pleasant surprise to wander by and see conversation resurrected here and still civil to boot!
I agree they really dropped the ball by ignoring the Tal'shiar vs Romulan Military rivalry. Look at the Face of the enemy episode there was wonderful chemistry between the Tal'Shiar and the Military. Neither side trusting the other and each trying to assert it's power over the other. Just imagine how much fun it would have been if you had to choose between playing a , Tal Prai'ex , Praetorian , or Tal'shiar agent.
Where do your loyalties lie Romulan? To the greater good of the Empire? To the Imperial House hold? To the Emperor or Praetor? or to the senate and Romulan people?
Honestly, choosing to join the Tal'Prai'ex (also known as "the Praetorian"; they are not two different things) wouldn't be much different from joining the Tal'Shiar, as both are loyalist entities, and, as long as there is someone in the office of Emperor/Empress, their loyalism is to her/him. There is no indication whatsoever that they would be opposed to the Tal'Shiar or the Romulan Star Empire. Quite the contrary, in fact.
Tal'Diann (Romulan Military Intelligence), however, is very well-known as a foe of the Tal'Shiar, and exists as an Orion/Klingon-allied fleet within STO. TOS canon established cooperation between the Romulans and Klingons at one time, and subsequent cooperation has been alluded to in later Trek franchises. See yours truly for more info on the said fleet.
Why you persist in promoting the Tal'Prai'ex while utterly ignoring the Tal'Diann I can't imagine, unless you have an agenda involving the promotion of the fleet so-named.
Tal'Diann (Romulan Military Intelligence), however, is very well-known as a foe of the Tal'Shiar, and exists as an Orion/Klingon-allied fleet within STO. TOS canon established cooperation between the Romulans and Klingons at one time, and subsequent cooperation has been alluded to in later Trek franchises. See yours truly for more info on the said fleet.
It should also be noted that more recently per STO lore the Klingons invaded the Romulans while they were going through the loss of Romulus/Remus and other internal problems, meaning that many Romulans would be rather... peeved... at the Klingons.
While the Federation was merely passive in dealing with the crisis and didn't "do enough" to help save them (leading to resentment as seen with Nero), the Klingons actively took advantage of their weakened position.
I should further note, that as much as there have been friendly moments between the Romulans and Klingons, there have also been nasty encounters. The massache that killed Worf's Parents, the incident involving the Enterprise-C, and its been noted they've fought multiple times in the past. Meanwhile, while the Roms and Feds have never fought a war against each other (and before someone chimes in with the things mentioned in "Balance of Terror", that was specifically the Earth/Romulan War, and was fought pre-Federation. ), having only occasional border skirmishes.
All that said, the one thing a lot of these proposals for a "better" Romulan story fail to address is the one thing Crypic absolutely has to address: the loss of Romulus and Remus. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, this effectively decapitated the Empire. All these organizations (the Tal Dian, the Tal Prai'ex) would have effectively no leadership (hell, the Tal Prai'ex probably suffered nearly 100% casualties) making them ineffective at best. It should also be noted that both the Tal Dian and Tal Prai'ex are not technically canon organizations, only the Tal Shiar is explicitely mentioned in canon. Checking out Memory Beta, both those organization have less non-canon sources for them than the Rihannsu-style Romulan portrayal that STO uses (which, as noted is supported by the five book Rihannsu series and the Vulcan's Soul Trilogy).
Further, a new Tal Prai'ex may have been formed, focused on Sela. Which means any Romulans part of it would generally be loyal to her. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have to play a character who's tied to such a mustache twirling villianess who thinks planets can be invaded with a few hundred troops. Competance and Sela are not on speaking terms (actually, rumor has it that Sela thought Competance was conspiring against her, and so had it taken out and shot for disloyalty:P). Plus Sela sees people only as pawns, disposable and unimportant except to forward her power.
All that said, I think the main place Cryptic failed is not in making the Romulans more-or-less good guys (this is Star Trek, after all, every race is redeemable), but in that they failed to show to people how much Sela, the Tal Shiar and such would SUCK to be a part of. If I had done it... hmm...
The PC in the "tutorial" section starts as a low ranking member of the Imperial Navy who is "hand-picked" by either Sela or the Tal Shiar to carry out mission damning their Commanding Officer by "unconvering" evidence of their treachery against the Romulans to the Elachi. The reward for this is being given your former Commander's ship as a "reward". You do a few missions for the Imperials, hunting down "rebel" Remans and Romulans, perhaps having multiple run-ins with a single member of the Republic who's trying to stop you and planting doubts about which side is the right side to be on. Meanwhile the plot starts to hint that Sela and the Tal Shiar are in league with the Elachi, perhaps by having a refugee ship you "liberated" from hostile Republic forces disappear and you finding evidence that members from that ship have been taken by the Elachi. Your commander (Sela, Tal Shiar, whatever) eventually instruct you to meet with this recurring character to set them up so that they can be captured and interogated.
Of course, the set up is to eliminate both you and the Republic officer. Durring the course of the mission to meet with him, he reveals that your former commander wasn't in league with the Elachi at all, but had uncovered evidence like you had. This is the obvious point that the Imperials double cross the player, having set you up to meet with the Republic member as a pretense to declair you a rebel and execute you. The Imperials attack, but the PC escapes with the aid of the Republic Commander, who offers to put in a good word for you with the Republic, an offer you turn down at that time, choosing instead to try and contact other allies within the Imperial forces.
Unfortunately, the well has already been poisoned, and you've been branded a traitor to the Empress and Empire, nobody is willing to go out on a limb for you, fearing the repercussions. Seeing no other option, the PC goes to the only other sizable Romulan faction, the Republic flotilla, for aid and support, who accept a more seasoned commander and their ship due to the needs.
From there, things continue more like the current storyline, as a member Republic.
This would give the players a look into both the TNG-style Romulans and the Rihannsu-style Republic, rather than the one perspective we now get. It gives, I think a better reason for why the Republic is a growing force and adds a bit more of the backstabbing treachery that so many folks seem to think is the only characteristic of Romulans, while eventually ending them up in the same place Cryptic currently has them as a sub-faction.
wouldn't be much different from joining the Tal'Shiar, as both are loyalist entities, and, as long as there is someone in the office of Emperor/Empress, their loyalism is to her/him. There is no indication whatsoever that they would be opposed to the Tal'Shiar or the Romulan Star Empire. Quite the contrary, in fact.
Well it's pretty obvious not everyone in the Empire is a fan of Sela and lets not forget she's missing right now if only momentary. I figure it would be pretty hard for her to regain control over the Empire after disappearing like that. The thing about power plays is once someone fills in the gap of power they tend to loath giving back said power.;)
And what's wrong with being loyalists? I for one like the idea of being part of an Empire. The internal wranglings and mind games to obtain social power offer a unique flavor to them. I like intrigue it's far more interesting to me than preset good guys and bad guys. Maybe intrigue isn't for everyone but that was one of the main things that really set the Romulans apart from the other groups in my mind.
I'm not a fan of the mundane monotone view where everyone is either a good guy or a bad guy I prefer shades of grey that are dependent on the situation where the person could zig while others might zag.
Why you persist in promoting the Tal'Prai'ex while utterly ignoring the Tal'Diann I can't imagine, unless you have an agenda involving the promotion of the fleet so-named.
Ah...okay:rolleyes: what is this some kind of crazy conspiracy theory?:P
It was just an example of what direction they could have taken , one I would have preferred and hope may yet see the light of day in future seasons.
They're similar but I wouldn't say they're the same thing.
"The Tal Prai'ex is an elite organization of warriors present within the Romulan Star Empire and are also known as the Praetorian Guard."
-- Tal Prai'ex - Memory Beta
The only difference?
"The Tal Prai'ex serve as the space branch of the Praetorians who serve as elite marines. Just as the Praetorians serve as the best of body guards, the Tal Prai'ex serves as elite escorts to important Romulan starships."
-- same source as above
That's not much of a difference. In fact, if the distinction is reliable (which is at least questionable due to the previous quote), they are the same organization, differing not even in function, but only in specific context, one being ground escort and one being space escort.
The people are fools they don't know what's good for them my loyalty is too the Empire and Romulan glory!:D
"Acceptance within the Tal Prai'ex was one of the highest honors available to a member of the Star Empire. Its commanding officers were known for their fairness, honor, ability and their respect for the common people."
-- same source as above (emphasis added)
Of course, once Sela and Hakeev were running things, the "honor" in being in the Tal Prai'ex undoubtedly diminished, as the two of them have demonstrated repeatedly that all they wanted around them were mindless sycophants ...
This would give the players a look into both the TNG-style Romulans and the Rihannsu-style Republic, ... while eventually ending them up in the same place Cryptic currently has them as a sub-faction.
Wow, that was quite the wall of text. And a really good idea, imho. Perhaps you should write up a series in the Foundry...
"You Iconians just hung a vacancy sign on your asses and my foot's looking for a room!"
--Red Annorax
"The Tal Prai'ex is an elite organization of warriors present within the Romulan Star Empire and are also known as the Praetorian Guard."
-- Tal Prai'ex - Memory Beta
The only difference?
"The Tal Prai'ex serve as the space branch of the Praetorians who serve as elite marines. Just as the Praetorians serve as the best of body guards, the Tal Prai'ex serves as elite escorts to important Romulan starships."
-- same source as above
That's not much of a difference. In fact, if the distinction is reliable (which is at least questionable due to the previous quote), they are the same organization, differing not even in function, but only in specific context, one being ground escort and one being space escort.
Nope not much of a difference but still a slight distinction between the two one that could be expanded on possibly. Though that's not really the point , the point was that they could have given us more depth into the inner workings of the Romulan military and made us feel like we're part of the mainstream government. Instead we're stuck with the Republic which at best comes off as a guerrilla army and at worst little more than a dissident terrorist group. Neither of which inspires much pride.
It's a sad day for Romulans when they have become nothing more than pointy eared Maquis.
"Acceptance within the Tal Prai'ex was one of the highest honors available to a member of the Star Empire. Its commanding officers were known for their fairness, honor, ability and their respect for the common people."
-- same source as above (emphasis added)
Of course, once Sela and Hakeev were running things, the "honor" in being in the Tal Prai'ex undoubtedly diminished, as the two of them have demonstrated repeatedly that all they wanted around them were mindless sycophants ...
I was stating where my personal loyalties lie not a Tal Prai'ex so that's irrelevant.
Wow, that was quite the wall of text. And a really good idea, imho. Perhaps you should write up a series in the Foundry...
I had been considering it actually, but my skills with the Foundry are zip, zilch and nadda, sadly. I've not even opened it up once, I probably should though.
The RP I do for my Rihannsu Commander: Ineania Ael t'Latta, is sorta similar to that story, though she left the good graces of the Imperial forces shortly after the Hobbes incident and more or less struck out with her crew in the interregnum to protect Romulan colony worlds from predators (be they Klingons, Hiirogen, or Tal Shiar) until she just "fell in" with the Republic.
Also, one thing I think folks might miss for many hard-line Romulans: many of them wouldn't be very loyal to Sela. She's a half-breed. It's as simple as that. She's not a REAL Romulan. By the Void, I think that many hardline Romulans would actually rebel against her, she came to power in a coup using outside mercenary forces and has an impure racial background. Proper Romulans, in my mind, wouldn't see her as a legitimate Empress, or her government as legitimate. The only reason people fall in line with her and the old Senate gave her a bit of legitimacy was the fact she held them at gunpoint and made an uneasy alliance with the Tal Shiar.
There is excellent IC reasons for Romulans to defect from Sela's government, completely ignoring D'tan and the Republic...
This is my speculation and in no way reflects any established lore in STO:
I think the Republic is made up of multiple factions who are likely vying for power and influence within the new Senate. These factions would be:
The Reunificationist - obviously headed by D'tan and currently the most powerful bloc due to D'tan's personal popularity (though likely their policies are not in alignment with the general population). They are also the most organized at this time politically, which is why they are in political ascendance.
The "Military" - This is not the Republic military per se, but rather the group made up of former Romulan military personnel who defected to the Republic from the Empire, bringing with them their ships, crews and resources. This faction is likely the smallest population wise, but wields disproportionate power as they represent the faction with the most guns and that protect the fledgling Republic from outside threats and bring stability. This is also likely the most "independent we can do it ourselves" faction as they are the ones with the most actual Imperial influence. However, they are also probably not the most politically adept faction either, as they are soldiers, not politicians.
The Colonials - This would be the faction that represents the various colonial refugee populations within the Republic. They are likely a moderate faction who's primary concern is maintaining security and peace. They would have little interest in the Reuinificationist's foreign policy are mildly isolationist (in the sense that they don't care and don't want to be involved in international matters), but are also not as gung ho as the Military faction.
The Remans - I think the Remans would present a united front. They are likely a minority within the Republic, but make up for that by controlling critical resources the Republic needs (the Vault, Tharalon Weaponry). They are likely mostly looking out for Reman interests first and foremost, and are likely looking for concessions to their former status as slave as reparations. They likely are hard-liners when it comes to anything involving the RSE, and probably push the most for destroying them. They likely don't get along with the Military faction, who in some ways represent the "old ways" to them.
There might be more factions, but those are the big ones I can see, personally, forming. The interplay between these factions is probably quite complex. For instance, the adoption of Tharalon weaponry was likely pushed for both by the Remans and the Military, while opposed by the Reuinificationist; meanwhile D'tan's foreign policy (the exchange program with the Fed/Klings, etc) is likely supported by the Remans while opposed by the Military. The Colonials would be playing spoiler between them all (or sometimes fracturing, as different colony worlds have different concerns).
Sadly, Cryptic didn't take the time to flesh out the Republic government. I think we should have had at least one mission that involved them directly to show that the Republic is more than just D'tan's pet project and that he's actually having to ride herd on multiple different factions. It might have been fun to have one where we actually get involved in some policy debate (something non-gameplay related, perhaps a point of conflict about the allocation of supplies between Republic worlds) and been allowed to use the PC's in game prestige to influence the outcome (or to sit it out entirely).
Anyway, rambling off topic a bit, but in conclusion, I think that if people just add a bit of thought and imagination to the Republic as presented by Cryptic they can see how actually Romulan it is. Cryptic failed to make it explicit, but the pieces are there if you look carefully.
Comments
International politics don't work this way now on Earth, why would we expect outright statements and suggestions be made when the evidence for this calculus is sitting right there in the face of the Federation and Klingons planners.
In other words, D'tan and the Republic don't need to make an explicit threat or state one. It's right there for everyone to see.
Further, D'tan doesn't have to lie. It's not even treachery. If you invite the snake into your bed and then roll over on it, who's fault is it that it bites you? Likewise, the Federation and Klingons accepted these ships into their space, if they then go and break the treaty with the Republic, it is not the Republic or its Commanders who are being treacherous, but they are.
It is a form of the old diplomatic act of the Hostage Exchange. The rules for this type of exchange are quite old and quite clear, and are ones both the Klingons and Federation would recgonize. While it is not practiced actively today in the classic sense, much of our internation policy was a form of it (the MAD policy of the Cold War is, at its root, a hostage exchange).
Not to the extent I am implying?
I really really hope this isn't stepping on any forum rules but: have you STUDIED Japanese history? Long story short, many historians think that the Japanese people were severly scarred by the loss of WW2. To say that the Romulan people wouldn't be HUGELY impacted by this is... unfathomable. Especially considering that they ALREADY carry psycological scars from the Sundering to this day.
Further, when you have a unstable political leadership, do you know what grows up to compensate for it, to maintain stability and continuing to continue to run day to day affairs? The beauracracy. Beauracracy is by its nature highly centralized (I know of no country on the planet that has a decrentralized national beauracracy), highly inflexible to change (especially when it comes as a result of overmuch change) AND tends to be incapable of moving.
In the Romulans Star Empire where would the heart of all the beauracracy have been? Where would all the support methods for softening the changes of power and political backstabbing have been? The same place the Senate met, the military had its headquarters and the Tal Shiar based operations off of: Romulus.
Boom, all that is GONE with the Hobbes disaster.
There is no beaucracy now to absorb the loss, all their methods for losing the Senate and adapting simply disappear and are thrown into chaos. In a highly centralized Empire, local and provincial beaucrats have very little real influence and cannot make major decisions, that all rests in the capitol. All that is simply gone.
The reason the Empire fell to chaos is not simply because of the loss of the Praetor and Senate. You're absolutely right that their loss would be easily able to be overcome (and had been in the past, as witness of the events in Nemesis). But Hobbes destroyed not just the government, but also the beaucracy that supported it, the economic heart of the Empire, the command center for the military and operational command for the Tal Shiar. In one fell swoop all the aspects of Romulans government were eradicated. There is nothing but local governors to pick of the peices, and what central government figures happened to be out of system at the time.
They did not show us directly, but the Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident" gives a much different view of what non-military officers do with their lives. It doesn't come off as a always-in-fear fascist state we see in TNG, but again comes off more in the "we are more alike than not in our lives" that was the constant refrain of TOS Romulans.
"My Enemy, My Ally" and "The Romulan Way" are not obscure books, and were, in fact, so popular with Trekkies that they wanted them officially canonized. Nor is the Vulcan's Soul trilogy obscure, as they are part of the ongoing Star Trek novel-verse stories.
And here's the thing, Cryptic clearly used them to craft their story in STO. The central claim to legitimacy the Republic claims, with an entire episode around it, is finding the Sword of the Raptor's Star. Which is stated to be a S'harien blade lost in the Sundered's Journey from Vulcan to Romulus. S'harien was a figure created in "The Romulan Way", as is another historical Romulan figure that is referenced by Crytpic, that of S'task, who is the father of the Romulan people, the one who led them into exile. S'task was not just featured in "The Romulan Way" however, he is a major figure in the Vulcan's Soul trilogy as well (which has HUGE sections telling the story of the Sundering from a first hand account). Yes, I will grant they have never been mentioned in the TV shows and movies, but the TV shows and movies are not the only thing Cryptic draws on for their content (which is apparent if you just spend some time looking around). They certainly made it more central to the Romulans than they have other groups, but that is because it so useful to help flesh out the Romulan culture, which has less development spent on it than the Cardassians or Bajorans.
You recognize that the Romulans do not seem to be inherantly violent, which seems at odd with what is said about pre-Surak Vulcan. Would this not be further evidence that Surak was wrong? Or rather, that there is more to it than initially meets the eye.
One thing the Rihannsu series and the Vulcan's Soul series address is this, and its firmly based in core Star Trek lore. In Star Trek we know Vulcan to be a relatively resource poor, highly arid, and quite inhospitable world. Now, what do we know about those type of envroments from looking at Earth civilization? They tend to lend themselves to highly competative and highly insular in-groups and out-groups that are often violent with one another. Add on some philisophical differences, religious differences, and racial differences (we know that Vulcans come in "white" and "black" varietes) and you have an instant recipe for long term violence (I would cite, for example, the Middle East and Central Asia as examples of similar circumstances).
Romulus, on the other hand, is ANYTHING but arid, being shown constantly as an almost ideal class-M world, with rain and bodies of water. Add in Remus with its ridiculous mineral wealth, and a long time spent on pre-warp starships traveling a reletavistic speed to break down former cultural and racial bounderies, and you demolish the recipe for internal violence that was on Vulcan. The Vulcans, as a people, had a need to be violent, so that they could survive on a harsh world. The Romulans had no such need once they settled down. Did they still have violence? Probably. If you accept the Rihannsu and Vulcan's Souls series, they absolutely did, but it was never the same as it was on Vulcan.
As a final note: I am loving the conversation and thank everyone for keeping it civil!
No problem it's just for interests sake mostly that we're debating this anyways well for me it is anyways.
It's been an intriguing discussion and you bring up some interesting points about competition for resources I would have liked to discuss it further and I do have some counter points but I just don't have the energy to write another hour long post so I think I'll bow out for now.:P
Worth noting also may be the anthropological theory that concepts of divinities may be influenced by the local environment. As many deities are personifications of various natural forces, this does seem to be at least implied. In ancient Mesopotamia, the flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates was unpredictable, and could happen at any time with little or no warning. Flooding was a common source of anxiety and disaster. The Mesopotamian deities were likewise unpredictable to the point of ethical capriciousness, and among them were personifications of natural disaster, such as Pazuzu. In Egypt, on the other hand, the inundation of the Nile is an extremely regular and predictable event. The deities of the Egyptians were far less chaotic than those of the Mesopotamians. This is but one example which supports the theory. Others include the volcanic situation in southeastern Europe, with eruptions and earthquakes. The Graeco-Roman gods and goddesses were also rather ethically questionable, punishing humans for being humans at one point and rewarding them for the self-same humanity at another point (not unlike certain other more well-known myths). If the environment on Romulus were fairly orderly, at least in the more popular areas for settlement, the likelihood is high that their religions would be less chaotic than those of a desert planet full of volcanoes like Vulcan.
Clearly more evidence that we Rihannsu aren't inherently a violent people. :P
Each of those choices requires resources comparable to what was put into this latest expansion. Just sayin'.
BTW, didn't realize until after I'd posted this how late I was coming into the discussion. Quite an interesting thread, and as others mentioned, very civil. It's refreshing.
--Red Annorax
I think we beat the topic to death in Beta. Stahl said "That's the story we are telling". regardless of how nonsensical most of it is.
Romulans are designed for the single-player game. They do not have a role in the multiplayer end-game universe and are just playable races for Fed and KDF in the multiplayer part of the game. There is no Romulan PVP, no Romulan fleets and starbases, etc. If this were a multiplayer game with a persistent living universe, Cryptic would have gone the opposite direction and made Romulans into an equal faction with their own end-game presence. But it isnt and they werent.
Well, they could effectively 'fix' that by adding Elachi 'deep space encounters' to the Tau Dewa sector space map (like they have KDF DSEs in Frd Sectors, Cardassian in the Bajoran sectors; and Romulans in the Romulan sectors) but in the end, I don't think are/were happy with the DSE mechanic as it currently exists in STO, and while they haven't removed them from the sector space areas I listed above; I don't think they are bothering to add DSE instances to new sector space areas they are creating.
It all comes down to themepark vs sandbox style MMOs. For sci-fi:
EVE Online (Sandbox style) - no real PvE story content or quests to speak of. Areas you can go to find NPC pirates/wormhole invaders to destroy and get loot from; or arteriods to mine' planets to setup resource factories, etc. But primary gameplay revolves around player vs player and rather consequential PvP.
STO (definite themepark style) - with scripted 'rides' (the storyline quests); and other repeatable scripted content that constitutes the bulk of the player experience (and players can create their own themepark tpe stories for themselves and others to play.) PvP exists, but it's mostly an afterthought with little to no consequences and PvE style rewards for the victors.
There's pros and cons to both approaches (and some player prefer one more than the other); but what you ultimately describe would only be the case in STO was a 'sandbox' style MMO (or they added a true sandbox element that the game doesn't have in any respect atm.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
The Foundry can be a great tool for putting out those alternate storylines you want to see.
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Where do your loyalties lie Romulan? To the greater good of the Empire? To the Imperial House hold? To the Emperor or Praetor? or to the senate and Romulan people?
These are the kinds of questions that should be asked not do you want to ally with the Federation of planets or Klingons. Who cares about them they're not Romulan , it should be about being part of Romulan culture not a concubine to alien powers.
How unfortunate the only sandbox game out there has a real time skill training thing where you can never catch up to anyone else, and such a slow manufacturing process it'll take you months just to get a ship that's viable in PVP and then you lose it in seconds. This game is so slow I fell asleep while playing it once.
In Eve Online it takes 2 months to get a ship, and 2 minutes to lose it.
In StarCraft it takes 2 seconds to build something, and 2 minutes to lose it.
Why the extremes? Where's the middle ground? 2 months <
>2 seconds.
Who's in charge of the gaming industry? What's your operating number? Boring conversion anyways.
Yeah but in Eve Online that where the fun start, you are careful which sector of space you fly your ship. Everything about if was such a Challenge and you get Rewarded for it. I remember when eve first came out and I bought my first battleship, not like the once we have in this game. I felt such an Accomplishment of Satisfaction, because its had no weapons and I had friend escort me from 12 system to get to our base of operation. The cost of loosing a ship in both PvP and pve makes you take the Extra Precaution. There the game felt like real Sci-fi game, because the size of the ship matter and what role your ship play in. A Squadron of Interceptors will bring down any battleships or Dreadnought. Dreadnought where for use for Stationary targets such as station. One can simple just pick up a ship and say I can kill anything. Space battle in eve is like real life battle where ECM and ECCM (electronic countermeasure) electronic warfare. And I do believe that too was in startrek but we are yet to see that in sto.
I don't care if I'm invulnerable until I enter an instanced PVP zone, 2 months to get a cruiser you lose in 1 battle is too long.
Eve is only a sandbox to guild leaders and multi-boxers, for everyone else it's your standard grind-mission grind-mining themepark MMORPG..... where you lose your ship you spend the last month grinding up to a guild leader or multi-boxer.
I see what you're saying, and some probably will start making good stories in the foundry... it just isnt the same tho. STO is effectively an "official product" they screwed the pooch this time and really need to fix it in the future imo. No I dont expect em to but as a wise Minbari once said, "When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them. They can still continue to do it, but the truth is where it needs to be."
man that would be awesome
Frankly its one of the things I like about STO. The fact you move from story to story is a big change from story grindgrindgrindgrind story grindgrindgrindgrind story. That said, they got lazy with Romulans and dropped the ball hard. Theres really no 2 ways about that.
@all pleasant surprise to wander by and see conversation resurrected here
Honestly, choosing to join the Tal'Prai'ex (also known as "the Praetorian"; they are not two different things) wouldn't be much different from joining the Tal'Shiar, as both are loyalist entities, and, as long as there is someone in the office of Emperor/Empress, their loyalism is to her/him. There is no indication whatsoever that they would be opposed to the Tal'Shiar or the Romulan Star Empire. Quite the contrary, in fact.
Tal'Diann (Romulan Military Intelligence), however, is very well-known as a foe of the Tal'Shiar, and exists as an Orion/Klingon-allied fleet within STO. TOS canon established cooperation between the Romulans and Klingons at one time, and subsequent cooperation has been alluded to in later Trek franchises. See yours truly for more info on the said fleet.
Why you persist in promoting the Tal'Prai'ex while utterly ignoring the Tal'Diann I can't imagine, unless you have an agenda involving the promotion of the fleet so-named.
As for my loyalty, it should go without saying, but I can do little better than quote Rosie Kane's hand when she took her oath as an MSP.
It should also be noted that more recently per STO lore the Klingons invaded the Romulans while they were going through the loss of Romulus/Remus and other internal problems, meaning that many Romulans would be rather... peeved... at the Klingons.
While the Federation was merely passive in dealing with the crisis and didn't "do enough" to help save them (leading to resentment as seen with Nero), the Klingons actively took advantage of their weakened position.
I should further note, that as much as there have been friendly moments between the Romulans and Klingons, there have also been nasty encounters. The massache that killed Worf's Parents, the incident involving the Enterprise-C, and its been noted they've fought multiple times in the past. Meanwhile, while the Roms and Feds have never fought a war against each other (and before someone chimes in with the things mentioned in "Balance of Terror", that was specifically the Earth/Romulan War, and was fought pre-Federation.
All that said, the one thing a lot of these proposals for a "better" Romulan story fail to address is the one thing Crypic absolutely has to address: the loss of Romulus and Remus. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, this effectively decapitated the Empire. All these organizations (the Tal Dian, the Tal Prai'ex) would have effectively no leadership (hell, the Tal Prai'ex probably suffered nearly 100% casualties) making them ineffective at best. It should also be noted that both the Tal Dian and Tal Prai'ex are not technically canon organizations, only the Tal Shiar is explicitely mentioned in canon. Checking out Memory Beta, both those organization have less non-canon sources for them than the Rihannsu-style Romulan portrayal that STO uses (which, as noted is supported by the five book Rihannsu series and the Vulcan's Soul Trilogy).
Further, a new Tal Prai'ex may have been formed, focused on Sela. Which means any Romulans part of it would generally be loyal to her. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have to play a character who's tied to such a mustache twirling villianess who thinks planets can be invaded with a few hundred troops. Competance and Sela are not on speaking terms (actually, rumor has it that Sela thought Competance was conspiring against her, and so had it taken out and shot for disloyalty:P). Plus Sela sees people only as pawns, disposable and unimportant except to forward her power.
All that said, I think the main place Cryptic failed is not in making the Romulans more-or-less good guys (this is Star Trek, after all, every race is redeemable), but in that they failed to show to people how much Sela, the Tal Shiar and such would SUCK to be a part of. If I had done it... hmm...
The PC in the "tutorial" section starts as a low ranking member of the Imperial Navy who is "hand-picked" by either Sela or the Tal Shiar to carry out mission damning their Commanding Officer by "unconvering" evidence of their treachery against the Romulans to the Elachi. The reward for this is being given your former Commander's ship as a "reward". You do a few missions for the Imperials, hunting down "rebel" Remans and Romulans, perhaps having multiple run-ins with a single member of the Republic who's trying to stop you and planting doubts about which side is the right side to be on. Meanwhile the plot starts to hint that Sela and the Tal Shiar are in league with the Elachi, perhaps by having a refugee ship you "liberated" from hostile Republic forces disappear and you finding evidence that members from that ship have been taken by the Elachi. Your commander (Sela, Tal Shiar, whatever) eventually instruct you to meet with this recurring character to set them up so that they can be captured and interogated.
Of course, the set up is to eliminate both you and the Republic officer. Durring the course of the mission to meet with him, he reveals that your former commander wasn't in league with the Elachi at all, but had uncovered evidence like you had. This is the obvious point that the Imperials double cross the player, having set you up to meet with the Republic member as a pretense to declair you a rebel and execute you. The Imperials attack, but the PC escapes with the aid of the Republic Commander, who offers to put in a good word for you with the Republic, an offer you turn down at that time, choosing instead to try and contact other allies within the Imperial forces.
Unfortunately, the well has already been poisoned, and you've been branded a traitor to the Empress and Empire, nobody is willing to go out on a limb for you, fearing the repercussions. Seeing no other option, the PC goes to the only other sizable Romulan faction, the Republic flotilla, for aid and support, who accept a more seasoned commander and their ship due to the needs.
From there, things continue more like the current storyline, as a member Republic.
This would give the players a look into both the TNG-style Romulans and the Rihannsu-style Republic, rather than the one perspective we now get. It gives, I think a better reason for why the Republic is a growing force and adds a bit more of the backstabbing treachery that so many folks seem to think is the only characteristic of Romulans, while eventually ending them up in the same place Cryptic currently has them as a sub-faction.
Well it's pretty obvious not everyone in the Empire is a fan of Sela and lets not forget she's missing right now if only momentary. I figure it would be pretty hard for her to regain control over the Empire after disappearing like that. The thing about power plays is once someone fills in the gap of power they tend to loath giving back said power.;)
And what's wrong with being loyalists? I for one like the idea of being part of an Empire. The internal wranglings and mind games to obtain social power offer a unique flavor to them. I like intrigue it's far more interesting to me than preset good guys and bad guys. Maybe intrigue isn't for everyone but that was one of the main things that really set the Romulans apart from the other groups in my mind.
I'm not a fan of the mundane monotone view where everyone is either a good guy or a bad guy I prefer shades of grey that are dependent on the situation where the person could zig while others might zag.
Ah...okay:rolleyes: what is this some kind of crazy conspiracy theory?:P
It was just an example of what direction they could have taken , one I would have preferred and hope may yet see the light of day in future seasons.
The people are fools they don't know what's good for them my loyalty is too the Empire and Romulan glory!:D
"The Tal Prai'ex is an elite organization of warriors present within the Romulan Star Empire and are also known as the Praetorian Guard."
-- Tal Prai'ex - Memory Beta
The only difference?
"The Tal Prai'ex serve as the space branch of the Praetorians who serve as elite marines. Just as the Praetorians serve as the best of body guards, the Tal Prai'ex serves as elite escorts to important Romulan starships."
-- same source as above
That's not much of a difference. In fact, if the distinction is reliable (which is at least questionable due to the previous quote), they are the same organization, differing not even in function, but only in specific context, one being ground escort and one being space escort.
"Acceptance within the Tal Prai'ex was one of the highest honors available to a member of the Star Empire. Its commanding officers were known for their fairness, honor, ability and their respect for the common people."
-- same source as above (emphasis added)
Of course, once Sela and Hakeev were running things, the "honor" in being in the Tal Prai'ex undoubtedly diminished, as the two of them have demonstrated repeatedly that all they wanted around them were mindless sycophants ...
--Red Annorax
Nope not much of a difference but still a slight distinction between the two one that could be expanded on possibly. Though that's not really the point , the point was that they could have given us more depth into the inner workings of the Romulan military and made us feel like we're part of the mainstream government. Instead we're stuck with the Republic which at best comes off as a guerrilla army and at worst little more than a dissident terrorist group. Neither of which inspires much pride.
It's a sad day for Romulans when they have become nothing more than pointy eared Maquis.
I was stating where my personal loyalties lie not a Tal Prai'ex so that's irrelevant.
I had been considering it actually, but my skills with the Foundry are zip, zilch and nadda, sadly. I've not even opened it up once, I probably should though.
The RP I do for my Rihannsu Commander: Ineania Ael t'Latta, is sorta similar to that story, though she left the good graces of the Imperial forces shortly after the Hobbes incident and more or less struck out with her crew in the interregnum to protect Romulan colony worlds from predators (be they Klingons, Hiirogen, or Tal Shiar) until she just "fell in" with the Republic.
Also, one thing I think folks might miss for many hard-line Romulans: many of them wouldn't be very loyal to Sela. She's a half-breed. It's as simple as that. She's not a REAL Romulan. By the Void, I think that many hardline Romulans would actually rebel against her, she came to power in a coup using outside mercenary forces and has an impure racial background. Proper Romulans, in my mind, wouldn't see her as a legitimate Empress, or her government as legitimate. The only reason people fall in line with her and the old Senate gave her a bit of legitimacy was the fact she held them at gunpoint and made an uneasy alliance with the Tal Shiar.
There is excellent IC reasons for Romulans to defect from Sela's government, completely ignoring D'tan and the Republic...
This is my speculation and in no way reflects any established lore in STO:
I think the Republic is made up of multiple factions who are likely vying for power and influence within the new Senate. These factions would be:
The Reunificationist - obviously headed by D'tan and currently the most powerful bloc due to D'tan's personal popularity (though likely their policies are not in alignment with the general population). They are also the most organized at this time politically, which is why they are in political ascendance.
The "Military" - This is not the Republic military per se, but rather the group made up of former Romulan military personnel who defected to the Republic from the Empire, bringing with them their ships, crews and resources. This faction is likely the smallest population wise, but wields disproportionate power as they represent the faction with the most guns and that protect the fledgling Republic from outside threats and bring stability. This is also likely the most "independent we can do it ourselves" faction as they are the ones with the most actual Imperial influence. However, they are also probably not the most politically adept faction either, as they are soldiers, not politicians.
The Colonials - This would be the faction that represents the various colonial refugee populations within the Republic. They are likely a moderate faction who's primary concern is maintaining security and peace. They would have little interest in the Reuinificationist's foreign policy are mildly isolationist (in the sense that they don't care and don't want to be involved in international matters), but are also not as gung ho as the Military faction.
The Remans - I think the Remans would present a united front. They are likely a minority within the Republic, but make up for that by controlling critical resources the Republic needs (the Vault, Tharalon Weaponry). They are likely mostly looking out for Reman interests first and foremost, and are likely looking for concessions to their former status as slave as reparations. They likely are hard-liners when it comes to anything involving the RSE, and probably push the most for destroying them. They likely don't get along with the Military faction, who in some ways represent the "old ways" to them.
There might be more factions, but those are the big ones I can see, personally, forming. The interplay between these factions is probably quite complex. For instance, the adoption of Tharalon weaponry was likely pushed for both by the Remans and the Military, while opposed by the Reuinificationist; meanwhile D'tan's foreign policy (the exchange program with the Fed/Klings, etc) is likely supported by the Remans while opposed by the Military. The Colonials would be playing spoiler between them all (or sometimes fracturing, as different colony worlds have different concerns).
Sadly, Cryptic didn't take the time to flesh out the Republic government. I think we should have had at least one mission that involved them directly to show that the Republic is more than just D'tan's pet project and that he's actually having to ride herd on multiple different factions. It might have been fun to have one where we actually get involved in some policy debate (something non-gameplay related, perhaps a point of conflict about the allocation of supplies between Republic worlds) and been allowed to use the PC's in game prestige to influence the outcome (or to sit it out entirely).
Anyway, rambling off topic a bit, but in conclusion, I think that if people just add a bit of thought and imagination to the Republic as presented by Cryptic they can see how actually Romulan it is. Cryptic failed to make it explicit, but the pieces are there if you look carefully.