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Where did the real Romulans go?
kodachikuno
Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
First, no I didnt forum search to see how many hundreds of times this has been bitched about before... DEAL
Second, I want to say that I think the Romulan plot is the best of the 3.
But the main point is... WHY THE HELL ARE WE PLAYING SUPER POLITICALLY CORRECT, WARM FUZZY, FEDERATION CLONES?! I was so looking forward to playing a Romulan, not a care bear with pointy ears >.<
Am I alone in wanting to have enjoyed a nice, dark, plot of backstabbing, intrigue, secrecy, and straight up EVIL?! Fairly early on in the plot Tovan's ex-girlfriend offers you to join the Tal Shiar... WHERE IS MY ACCEPT OPTION?! Later theres a fantastic opportunity to Join the Empress or even just go with the programming.... again not an option :mad:
Its a great story, but dammit not everyone wants to play paladins all the frikkin time.
Second, I want to say that I think the Romulan plot is the best of the 3.
But the main point is... WHY THE HELL ARE WE PLAYING SUPER POLITICALLY CORRECT, WARM FUZZY, FEDERATION CLONES?! I was so looking forward to playing a Romulan, not a care bear with pointy ears >.<
Am I alone in wanting to have enjoyed a nice, dark, plot of backstabbing, intrigue, secrecy, and straight up EVIL?! Fairly early on in the plot Tovan's ex-girlfriend offers you to join the Tal Shiar... WHERE IS MY ACCEPT OPTION?! Later theres a fantastic opportunity to Join the Empress or even just go with the programming.... again not an option :mad:
Its a great story, but dammit not everyone wants to play paladins all the frikkin time.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
carebear with pointed ears, indeed :v
The whole 'proper Romulan' thing is itself a bit of subjective thing too. To me, a proper Romulan is called a Rihannsu, and isn't some Tal'Shiar stooge.
I have more of a problem with the Scimitar pack existing than that of a breakaway faction from the RSE and fighting for independence.
This is how the faction plots feel imo
FED - Paladins
KDF - Heroic and mostly Paladin-ish
RR - Begger Paladins
....why bother with factions when they all have about the same feel
I don't know what makes them paladins, I'm getting the vibe that people think real Romulans are the ones that destroy other Romulans.
BTW, I'm sure you know, but the Romulan storyline is a prequel. So if you'd be allied with the Tal'Shiar and join the "Empress" what should basically happen is - you get GAME OVER pop up after you finish 'Romulan Mystery', deleting your char. and offering you to create a new one.
Now if I were playing a Reman, it would make more sense...
Anyway, I think you might be caught up in how the game structures the plots of each faction's main campaign - each has you the player character be the hero. From your perspective, your faction is in the right. This doesn't necessarily mean all three sides are actually right, but it is something you'd expect if you were actually a character in this world. Like as a Romulan, you're there when your planet gets attacked by the Elachi. And as the plot continues, you find out the Elachi are in cahoots with the Tal'Shiar. And the way in which you find this out and resolve to take down the Tal'Shiar, Hakeev and Sela, was really well done in my opinion.
Could they have done it differently? I suppose they could have, but TBH I don't have any desire to play a Tal'Shiar stooge. I personally don't have an interest in it, but also I don't think it's narratively very interesting either. You're either a brainwashed drone, a misguided fool, or you're Sela/Hakeev, who are already NPCs. The Romulan Republic works for me in a way in which the Tal'Shiar don't. But hey, I understand why some people don't like it. I just don't think there's any way Cryptic could have made a Tal'Shiar faction as interesting.
Because they're exhausting themselves trying to "undo" or "correct" the evil's of their Imperial history... like not a single one of them has any pride or love of any thing the empire has ever done... and have the perspective that the only thing the empire ever is/was is 100% wrong... every side has good/bad in it.
except that it doesnt end the military, tal shiar, or even independant reman factions. Weakened them sure, but they are still there and have more resources and manpower than the "true way"
Klingons and Romulans make a habit of allying each other only to start killing each other :P
As for the Klingon plot arc, you're out there being the perfect paragon of honor and warrior fighting for the betterment of your people... pretty much the definition of paladin.
No Im not 'caught up' in that and like you I agree it was well done. And if you want your char to evolve that way its perfectly done. But what if youd rather take over the Tal Shiar and use that power base to exterminate the Elachi from within? Or sign on with the Empress to not only restore the empire but to purge douchenozzles like hakeev?
Thats cool for you, but I want some choices, I want the ability to take different roads. Im sure plenty of people would agree that climbing the power ladder of a SS style organization and claiming power for your own agenda wouldnt be fun for them. Others would love it. Similarly what about joining the "Legitimate Government" ie the Empire under its Empress and working toward the same exact goody goody goals the Republic is? On the way you can encounter, defeat, root out and exterminate the same corruption. Or you can do like many Klingons, fight for glory, power and fame Vice-Admiral of the Romulan Star Empire and Military Governor of several colonies sounds like a good retirement plan
At its core, the Republic bugs me because its federation mindset with a green UI, its not very Romulan imo. Loosing your homeworlds/Capital definitely would shake things up a ton but there will still be those who want "the old ways" as it were.
Now, again, it is a really good plot and well written but they really should have done something else with it. I realize all 3 sides are linear as all hell and all 3 have many areas where it would be awesome to branch off an take a different path. I mean hell why not be a dishonorable targ and side with Torg for once? :P But with the Republic... lets face it, change a few names here and there, maybe a handful of tweaks and you could easily see Picard and the Enterprise doing exactly the same things the same way on a season of TNG. It just isnt Romulan :P (imo ofc)
edit:
yikes that got long winded
The Tal'Shiar is a agency to the Romulan Star Empire and is no different from what Starfleet Intelligence and Section 31 is to the Federation and Klingon Intelligence is to the Klingon Empire therefor the Tal'Shiar is NOT a faction as Cryptic trying to make people believe.
People will try to point that the Romulan homeworld is destroyed and therefor it is weak, but the fact is that the Romulan Star Empire still have a vast territory with alot colony worlds having hundreds millions of people and resouces they still control..
Though i have a KDF align Romulan, i still think they could've have made a stand alone Romulan Star Empire with a storyline that Hakeev is using Tal'Shiar for his own purpose to betray Empress Sela and the Romulan Star Empire to serve his Iconian puppet masters.
It also would make sense PvP wise that the Romulan Star Empire would have fight the Federation and Klingons because of their incursions into Romulan space to help their D'tan puppet offshoots, instead of Romulan Republic players kills first Tal'Shiar then kills each other because they're either align with Feds or KDF...
well, thats all i have to say.
Well, to be honest, 90% of the Romulan civilians we meet throughout the storyline don't favor D'Tan and want just to be left alone. I get a vibe of a collective depression after the loss of the homeworld and they just want to get on with their lives the best they can after the tragedy. The don't give a damn about politics.
But then Sela and the Tal'Shiar waltz in, with the 'Hakeev knows best' strategy, forcing people into serving as they please, destroying colonies and killing inocents. That makes the Romulans reluctantly join D'tan and that makes them hate the old empire, at least in game.
Except that does end the military, because if there is no government there is no need for military. Sure, the military can do a coup, but it seems that after Taris noone seems to have the influence or will to do it. Instead they are divided amongst a dozen of warlords fighting for power. And a big portion of the noble and honorable military stuff joined the Republic as they see that as the only way to protect and serve the Romulan people. Temer, Nadel, Kerekek just to name few.
The Tal'Shiar relevance after what they did and without an actual government is zero.
And if it werent for D'tan, the independent Reman faction led by Obisek would glass Romulan worlds one by one with thalaron weapons. I don't see how that would work in game.
Please note that Sela is the same douchenozzle as Hakeev, maybe even a bigger one. And she's a faliure on top of that.
Also you can't sign on with her because she's not here anymore, there's no "Empress" as of Season 7.
It's actually funny that you put the term legitimate government into quotation marks.
Because the legitimate government fell the day Sela paraded on Rator with a Hirogen fleet, forcing the senate to elect her as Empress and disbanding the senate afterwards.
But, I get your wish for choices. Then again, this is Cryptic we're talking about.
Under most any other circumstance I would agree with you totally, but they way Cryptic did set it up the Military and the Tal Shiar are two different factions at odds
Weakened and divided but not ended or gone... thank you for reinforcing my point.. Hell since the player is the 'special one' in the plot arcs you could be the leader that unifies the groups
I disagree with your interpretation of how Obisek would proceed but that is one possibility... also one that would get pretty much everyone to pound him and his forces into dust. Even Klingons dont like trigger happy idiots with Thalaron weapons.
I agree that Sela is hardly a winning character and cut from a similar cloth as Hakeev. Also you CAN sign on with her as we are referencing the prequel plot line before the Iconians abduct her TRIBBLE... also shes "gone" but not finished as a character for STO's future. Why anyone would follow her after months of being disappeared into Iconian HQ is a diff story but hey... wth right? :P
Thats actually partly WHY I put it in quotes hehe
True, very true. They're like Moisture Farmer Luke Skywalker complaining about power converters...
well said
The Tal'Shiar is NOT like Starfleet Intelligence nor Klingon Intelligence (although they do share some characteristics with Section 31). The Tal'Shiar is like the Stasi, the Gestapo, or the NKVD. They are the Imperial Secret Police, not an Intelligence service.
The Military and the Tal'Shiar have a long history of struggle against one another, and in fact, the Military Intelligence wing of the RSE (the Tal'Diann) was actively opposed to the Tal'Shiar.
My fleet is the "Tal'Diann", btw, a fleet allied with the Orion Syndicate and Klingon Empire. The Tal'Shiar will get no sympathy from me.
Did the Empire effect some positive outcomes? Sure. But from at least the time of Shinzon (if not before), the Empire has been decadent and corrupt. The time for change was past due. So we, the survivors of attacks by the Elachi and the Tal'Shiar, undertook to make such a change by working with D'Tan to find and establish a new homeworld.
Eventually, Romulans will have another empire; it's inevitable. But I wouldn't expect it any time soon. It wouldn't make sense.
However LIKE Section 31 (and at times Starfleet Intelligence from what's been portrayed on screen); the 'Tal Shiar' is not representative of how your average Romulan citizen or officer acts. Like the Fed Section 31 it acts autonomously from the government and seems to have its own agenda.
Personally, I never liked what TNG did to the Rolumans. In TOS they were more patterned after the Roman Empire (which had it's own unique internal politics); but from what was shown in TNG's "Unification" and especially TNG's "Face of the Enemy" - Romulus seemed to be more of a fascist state; with the Tal Shiar acting as the enforcement arm of a 'secret police' type organization.
So, IMO - Star Trek hasn't had 'real' Romulans itself for quite some time.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Quite frankly, even Republic Romulans take aspects of both other factions. Romulans commit their actions through passion, emotion and opprotunity. They are neither as barbaric or warlike as the KDF, nor as self-righteous or peaceful* as the Federation.
They really just need to be a standalone faction. PvP needs an overhaul anyways.
*We blow all sorts of TRIBBLE up and monopolize the biggest chunk of space around. Welcome to the 25th century.
Most of the episodes they star in they use some cunning ploy to try and provoke a war with the Federation, test their ships against the Federation, or at least prevent the Federation from acquiring its goals.
In TOS we see the Romulans destroy several Federation outposts to test the Federation response, and if sufficient resistance was not met to engage in a full scale invasion of Federation space.
In TNG, the Enterprise-D is actually attacked by the Romulans in three separate occasions. In one (double) episode they actually try to conquer Vulcan. They torture and brainwash members of the Enterprise-D. In some episodes they seem more amicable, capable of working with the Federation, but in these situations it is always for their own benefit. We also learn they destroyed a major Klingon outpost in a sneak-attack, killing thousands.
Finally, we see a deep loathing for Klingons, to the point were a Romulan would rather die than allow for a life-saving infusion with a substance extracted from Klingon blood. "I'd rather die than get injected with Klingon filth" if I quote said Romulan correctly. The Federation meanwhile is considered "A den of cowards".
In the Nemesis movie, we learn the Romulans have enslaved an entire sub-species to labor in their dilithium mines, and that they employ weapons of mass destruction on their ships.
In the Enterprise series you see the Romulans even more conniving than in TNG. They enslave other species, and try to spark an intergalactic war so they can move in and conquer the remains. You don't even see the Klingons do something like that.
In STO, the Romulans raise cute furry epohh's, have reverted to primitive crop farming, want to make friends with all the friendly neighboring species they can find, and all their ships come standard with a Bajoran Vedek disguised as a Romulan named Tovan Khev.
What went wrong??
Aid in leading the Romulan Star Empire back to its former greatness.
Join the Romulan Praetorian Guard and teach those epohh loving hippies what it means to be a true Romulan!
You might be a Romulan in STO, but you are NOT a member of the Romulan Star Empire
The second episode that featured the Romulans you cannot argue they are the villians, that is, of course the almost as excellent "The Enterprise Incident". Let us, for a moment, forget that Kirk, Spock and the Enterprise are the heroes of the show, and look at it from a completely neutral perspective. Party A's space is invaded by a ship from Party B. Party A lawfully captures the ship as and, in an effort at diplomacy and peaceful resolution to the situation, invites the Commander and his executive officer over for a meal and negotiations. Party B's executive officer spends the time seducing the commanding officer of Party A's forces, while the commander infiltrates and then later steals technology from Party A, that they then escape back to their own space with. In other words, the Romulans were not just not the villians, but they were outright taken advantage of and played by the Federation. In fact, it's one of the most morally gray acts the Enterprise and crew ever took... reenforcing the idea of "we are alike".
So in the TOS era the Romulans were honorable, rational, passionate people who were an offshoot of the Vulcans and had their own Empire. Historically they'd fought a war with Earth (not the Federation or even some proto-Federation alliance, just earth), but we were given no details on who started that war, just that it was fought and resulted in the Neutral Zone.
For many years, this was the image of the Romulans. And into this two classic TOS Star Trek novels were written: "My Enemy, My Ally" and "The Romulan Way." These books would forever impact the way the fandom viewed Romulans, showing a vision of their culture in-line with their portrayal in TOS as honorable, passionate offshoots of the Vulcans. Star Trek Online is also clearly influenced by these novels, the use of the author Diana Duane's Rihannsu language is evidence of that, as is many of the Romulans cursing "By the Elements" and the overall portrayal of the Rihannsu people, references to S'task and S'harien (the first the philosophical founder of the Romulans, the second Vulcan's greatest swordsmith). For the record, these books were so popular, there were many who wished for them to be made official Trek canon (which, sadly, they weren't).
Then came TNG. The first appearance of the Romulans in TNG, the thoughoughly unimpressive "The Neutral Zone" did nothing really to change them from the TOS portrayal. They were proud, suspicious, but rational. What were they doing when they showed up, investigating the disappearance of Romulan colonies in the region, the exact same mission the Enterprise was on (though Picard and co were investigating lost Fed colonies). When it became apparent that the Fed wasn't responsible, they backed down and went home.
Other TNG episodes that showed things about the Romulans were "The Defector", in which a Romulan very much in line with the Rihannsu portrayal of a Romulan defected to try and prevent a war. Of course, it was a test of his loyalty to the Empire, but he was also not shown to be abnormal. In fact, there was a clear dicodomy in the Romulans between an honorable people, and a fascist regime that was lorded over them by the Tal Shiar. Many military types constantly chaffed at the Tal Shiar and their activities, as shown in "The Face of the Enemy".
When were the Romulans, as a people, not honorable and backstabbing? When the Tal Shiar or Sela showed up. Sela is an interesting case as you could argue she's not a true Romulan (she is, after all, half human), and so that she goes to extremes to prove herself and eliminate opponents because of the likely stigma attached to her bloodline. (In many respects, Sela is a mirror of Spock). Her plan to invade Vulcan and conquer it is laughable, and is hardly fit to emulate.
Through TNG though, the Romulans lost the "honorable warrior" aspect that TOS and the first two Rihannsu books had given them. The Klingons, apparently, stole it from them in a raid sometime in the 23rd Century and had since rivited onto their asses. If you watch the Klingon episodes from the TOS you see a society that is not honor bound, but rather power bound. One that is more facist than not, where might makes right, and victory is all that matters, regardless of honor (though they are still rational actors that when faced with powers beyond them do not throw themselves stupidly into a failing fight, but rather back down and talk peace).
All that said, perhaps the biggest crime TNG did to the Romulans is forget that are not "evil Vulcans". The portrayal of them in TNG was often very stoic and almost emotionless (though still driven by passion), in other words, they were not Vulcans who rejected Surak's philosophy, but rather, Vulcans who had instead twisted it to their own end. This is in stark contrast to other portrayals where the Romulans were those who rejected Surak's teachings on emotion and instead embraced passion. They were not "evil Vulcans", but rather "anti-Vulcans", a people of deep passion who were more like many in the Federation than either side truly wanted to admit.
DS9 started the rehabilitation of the Romulans in some ways. They began doing more outside their own realm, they were rational actors and there was a clear distinction between them and the Tal'Shiar (the confusion between the two was really started in TNG, I would say). Sadly, DS9 became a massively missed opportunity that squandered an excellent chance to develop the Romulans as a culture and people (the Cloaking Device liason officer), and instead they became the "third wheel" in the story of the Dominion War; essential for victory, but not really developed.
I have not watched the Enterprise episodes pertaining to the Romulans, but given the overall quality of Enterprise and the idocy of storytelling in it (plus the entire thing with Romulans having Cloaking devices before Romulans had cloaking devices), I cannot feel it added much to the lore of the Romulans.
Then came Nemesis, the worst Star Trek movie since Star Trek V, perhaps even worse. (I still cannot forgive Riker taking "manual control" of the Enterprise-E with a joystick). However, there were some callbacks to the previous honor of the Romulans. Certain Romulans did join the effort to stop the Scimitar's attack on the Federation, and it was clear that the Romulans were hoping to open a new diplometic chapter with the Federation.
So, were the Romulans "villians"? Only if you accept the Federation is ALWAYS the good guys and their actions are inherantly good, but in at least three Romulan-centric episodes, "The Enterprise Incident", "In a Palde Moonlight" and "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" you can make a solid case that the Federation were acting immorally, while the Romulans were actually an innocent party. Given that the Romulans have also done their own share of espionage and tricks against the Federation, this makes them... equals. Arguably, the incidences we has seen the Federation pull on the Romulans are WORSE than the actions taken by the Romulans against the Federation. The Romulans have, at their worst, tried to conquer ONE Federation planet. The Federation, on the other hand, falsified evidence and effects to draw the Romulans into a interstellar war in which millions of Romulans were killed fighting an enemy that had not directed acted against the Federation and that the Federation had antagonized (provided, the Romulans had antagonized them too, but the Dominion had not declared war on or made a move against Romulan interests).
Which returns us to the original message of the "Balance of Terror": "we are more alike that we are different".
So, the question is then, what do you wish to play? Do you wish to play with a faction that has rounded characterization, that has a long philosophical and cultural history that embraces ideals of honor, duty and passion? Or would you rather play a facist state where all that matters is your own personal advancement? Do you wish to see the continual development of the story of the Romulans, however flawed it is at time, or do you wish for them to be in a TNG stasis?
Perhaps they could have added more political factions and infighting and some more of the cunning that Romulans have always been noted for, no matter the portrayal. But cunning is exceptionally hard to write well, and I feel that Cryptic did as good a job as can be expected of a MMORPG. I, personally, did not feel I was playing a Fed or Klingon officer, I felt like I was playing a Rihannsu who had to step up in difficult times. Could they have done better? Of course. But they could also have done much much worse.
Frankly, I feel that the development of the Romulans, given the canon they had to work with, is believable and functional. To any who say that they should stand on their own and not take outside help, I point out that it is foolish to not use the Federation's soft heartness against them to aid the Rihannsu, and to then turn that aid to gain aid from the Klingons by playing their fear of a shift in the balance of power against them. There is no need for backroom dealing and treatury when honeyed words and truth work just as well, perhaps better. Certainly, D'tan is a little to soft for my taste in some respects, and we could do with more displays of classic Romulan cunning and pride, but, to quote an entirely different science fiction movie:
"Losing your homeworld can have that effect on a species..."
At first I thought: Holly wall of text, Batman! :P
But this has to be one of the best if not the best post regarding this issue on the forum. Thank you for taking the time to elaborate this.
^That sums up my feelings on the whole thing rather succinctly.
Thank you. I've always been a fan of the Romulans ever since I read the first two Rihannsu books as a kid growing up, and the TNG portrayal that seems ever popular with folks just bothers me (of course, I'm a heretic and think TNG is one of the weaker Star Trek series and that Picard was a chump, give me Kirk and Sisko over him any day).
I recently read the Rihannsu series and am working on the Vulcan's Soul trilogy, so a lot of this is fresh in my mind and it's interesting to see how much of it was worked into STO. Despite what folks may think, Cryptic clearly has more than a couple of Trekkies on staff, as the amount of research they clearly did for the Legacy of Romulus is obvious if you know what you're looking at. Sadly, if you're a person who only watched the TV shows and movies, much of it actually goes over your head.
D'tan not only got true neutrality - the RR isn't part of the war at all - but also good aid, which the RR desperately needs. If the RR had just stayed regular neutral, it was just an invitation for the Klingons to come in and invade a much-weakened Romulan space.
If it allied with the feds, it would have gotten aid, but it was just an invitation for invasion by the Klingons, who would have no mercy.
If it allied with the Klingons, absolute best-case scenario was to become the new Gorn, a vassal nation to the Klingons, who wouldn't give them jack TRIBBLE for aid, and kinda defeating the purpose of forming the RR. The RSE would be defeated without the help of the RR guys, and the various neutral colonies would run to the feds for protection - entirely ending any hope of an independent Romulan people.
Also note that, once you ally with a faction, you are effectively a privateer (and double-true for the Klink-allied). You can do whatever you want (presumably the other captains in the Armada do the same), with no political consequences. Damn good deal D'tan has going there - a very Romulan deal.
C-can we be friends? TNG had some of the best episodes in the franchise, but it also had some of the worst, and in greater abundance than the good. Also, Picard was a chump that was afraid of children. CHILDREN! (Though he did eventually get over that, to be fair.)
Romulan civilization was not destroyed by Hobus. Play through the Fed episode chain again, there are intact and operational research stations, military stations, etc. If a group of rag-tag refugees can build a functional civilization with diplomacy and starship production, then the remains of the RSE could do it more easily.
In short, the only reason why the RR is the way it is, is because that's all Cryptic would budget for it. They could not/would not do the work necessary for a full shipline, fleets and starbases, multi-party PVP, and so forth. The rehashed Vulcan wannabe faction we got instead of the RSE is solely because of that.
I will admit they did a good job with what they had, but it is not RSE, it is not the Romulans we saw on screen for 50 years, or anything like it. Cryptic missed a tremendous opportunity. Oh well.