WHY IS EVERYONE OBSESSED WITH CARRIERS SUDDENLY?
Was there an alien invasion which washed everyones brain, i didn't notice?
Whats going on people, talk to me, please!
Btw. the Galaxy Class was very much a Battleship. Even the Crew itself stated it at one point.
It's the biggest and most powerful Muscle Starfleet had even with the introduction of the sovereign, which was more like a racing car compared to the Galaxy class.
But the Galaxy WAS NEVER the flying brick with no teeth how Cryptic made it.
Read some of Dontdrunk postings for more info.
I'm sorry, but anyone who considers the Galaxy a battleship while completely disregarding the Sovereign as a 'racing car' in comparison is watching something different to what I'm watching. The Galaxy is a shabby flying hilton that's got its TRIBBLE handed to it plenty of times. The Sovereign meanwhile has often acquitted itself well against superior forces.
I'm sorry, but anyone who considers the Galaxy a battleship while completely disregarding the Sovereign as a 'racing car' in comparison is watching something different to what I'm watching. The Galaxy is a shabby flying hilton that's got its TRIBBLE handed to it plenty of times. The Sovereign meanwhile has often acquitted itself well against superior forces.
In this case "racing Car" just meant a more specialized ship.
Of course we saw the Sovereign fight superior forces, but if some stupid first officer hadn't destroyed the -D we would have seen the Enerprise -D doing exactly the same thing.
The -D was a generalist, while the -E was a specialist. Althrough the Galaxy has a much higher interior volume and thus more space for equipment like fusion reactors and other things. If both ships where equipped with the latest technology (which they surely are), they would be equal strong in battle, except the Galaxy would be more versatile and a more multi mission ship.
So the Galaxy might be bigger and a bit slower then a Sovereign, but also she has more reserves and capacities for Torpedoes and fusion reactors to support shield systems and weapons.
Also we have seen the Soveriegn fire 3-4 torpedoes at max, the Galaxy althrough she only has 1 forward and 1 rear Torpedo Launcher is capable to fire salvos of 10-20 torpedoes at once.
So yes, i think the Galaxy class is still the heavier ship and should be considered this way in STO.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I'm sorry, but anyone who considers the Galaxy a battleship while completely disregarding the Sovereign as a 'racing car' in comparison is watching something different to what I'm watching. The Galaxy is a shabby flying hilton that's got its TRIBBLE handed to it plenty of times. The Sovereign meanwhile has often acquitted itself well against superior forces.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but whenever we saw the Sovereign Class on screen (Ent-E) it was almost assimilated and repeatedly blown to bits. The Ent-D had it's moments as well, but she handled herself a lot better during the show
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Correct me if I'm wrong, but whenever we saw the Sovereign Class on screen (Ent-E) it was almost assimilated and repeatedly blown to bits. The Ent-D had it's moments as well, but she handled herself a lot better during the show
I hate to say this but you're wrong. The Enterprise-E being assimilated was after it had turned the tide against the Borg Cube that was in spitting distance of earth. It also destroyed the sphere with a single torpedo salvo. Sure it was then boarded by borg and slowly assimilated, but a) that would have happened to the Enterprise-D as well and b) it is not indicative of the Sovereign's ability to withstand starship combat. It's an apples and oranges comparison.
In Insurrection it was getting it's TRIBBLE kicked, sure - by two starships of equivalent mass and power. Two to one odds and it was scraping by, long enough for Riker to do his metreon gas canister trick. And in Nemesis, despite being an execreable film, showed the Enterprise fight against a much superior opponent and ultimately prevail.
Now I don't want to pick on the Enterprise-D, but outside of its performance against the Borg cube in Best of Both Worlds, it leaves much to be desired as a combat ship. Two B'rel class BoPs were enough to ambush it and to fall... to Ferengi boarders. The Tamarian ship in 'Darmok' was also superior, and could have destroyed the Enterprise if Picard hadn't arrived on the bridge with his breakthrough in communications. In 'Transfigurations' some alien ship turned off the life support on the Enterprise in some unknown way.
There are two more incidents which are most damning, but admittedly it's hard to reconcile either of these events with the examples of the Enterprise being tough. Generations getting punked by Lursa and B'etor. And 'Cause and Effect' where a slight bump on the starboard nacelle resulted in a catastrophic explosion. The first one is inconsistent with what we've seen the Enterprise dish out when they need to fight, and honestly it was possibly the lamest part of Generations. I don't care if Lursa and B'etor had the Enterprise's shield frequency, the Enterprise should have been able to take care of itself. And as for 'Cause and Effect', I don't know what the hell they were thinking, because that collision looked like TRIBBLE. We've seen the Enterprise withstand greater damage than that.
But unfortunately, those examples are still canon. We have two extremes, on one side you have episodes like 'Survivors' and 'Best of Both Worlds' that has the Enterprise launch multiple weapons salvoes. ('Survivors' isn't a fair representation though, as the Husnock warship was an illusion) On the other end, you have Generations. And 'Cause and Effect'. And 'Rascals'. There are more, but those three examples are the most egregious IMO. I hate it, but there it is.
I hate to say this but you're wrong. The Enterprise-E being assimilated was after it had turned the tide against the Borg Cube that was in spitting distance of earth. It also destroyed the sphere with a single torpedo salvo. Sure it was then boarded by borg and slowly assimilated, but a) that would have happened to the Enterprise-D as well and b) it is not indicative of the Sovereign's ability to withstand starship combat. It's an apples and oranges comparison.
We didn't see a Galaxy Class against a Borg Sphere, so we have no basis for a comparison.
But since a Galaxy is capabel to fire 10-20 Torpedoes per salvo, compared to a Sovereigns 3-4 i think a Galaxy Class would have performed just as good or even better.
In Insurrection it was getting it's TRIBBLE kicked, sure - by two starships of equivalent mass and power. Two to one odds and it was scraping by, long enough for Riker to do his metreon gas canister trick. And in Nemesis, despite being an execreable film, showed the Enterprise fight against a much superior opponent and ultimately prevail.
Now I don't want to pick on the Enterprise-D, but outside of its performance against the Borg cube in Best of Both Worlds, it leaves much to be desired as a combat ship. Two B'rel class BoPs were enough to ambush it and to fall... to Ferengi boarders. The Tamarian ship in 'Darmok' was also superior, and could have destroyed the Enterprise if Picard hadn't arrived on the bridge with his breakthrough in communications. In 'Transfigurations' some alien ship turned off the life support on the Enterprise in some unknown way.
Don't forget "TNG 3x03 The survivors", Enterprise -D encountered a (made up) Husnock ship which was supposed to forcefuly drive the Enterprise away from the planet. No matter if that Husnok was a illusion or not, the Galaxy showed it has teeth. The Enterprise did very well against that enemy IMHO.
Let's not forget Yesterday Enterprise (ok that was another timeline, but showed it was technically possible for a Galaxy Class to be made as a Battleship).
The Tamarian ship was about to start a War, while the Enterprise wanted a peaceful ending for that encounter. The Tamarian was not superior.
You're right about the two ferengi BoPs, but that wasn't the ships fault more the incompetence of the first officer and security officer.
Since TNG hadn't much spaceship conflict, it isn't so obvious to see how strong the Galaxy Class really was.
There are two more incidents which are most damning, but admittedly it's hard to reconcile either of these events with the examples of the Enterprise being tough. Generations getting punked by Lursa and B'etor. And 'Cause and Effect' where a slight bump on the starboard nacelle resulted in a catastrophic explosion. The first one is inconsistent with what we've seen the Enterprise dish out when they need to fight, and honestly it was possibly the lamest part of Generations. I don't care if Lursa and B'etor had the Enterprise's shield frequency, the Enterprise should have been able to take care of itself. And as for 'Cause and Effect', I don't know what the hell they were thinking, because that collision looked like TRIBBLE. We've seen the Enterprise withstand greater damage than that.
Well, every ship (i mean really EVERY ship) would have been destroyed if it's crew is so incompetent as the Crew in Generations. (Half of the Bridge Crew should have been court martialed, and the other half should never ever set step on a Starfleet ship again IMO.)
Are you sure you are talking about the Galaxy Class or the production staff of TNG?
Most of the time the Enterprise didn't do well was because of reasons which no other ship would have hardly even survived.
But unfortunately, those examples are still canon. We have two extremes, on one side you have episodes like 'Survivors' and 'Best of Both Worlds' that has the Enterprise launch multiple weapons salvoes. ('Survivors' isn't a fair representation though, as the Husnock warship was an illusion) On the other end, you have Generations. And 'Cause and Effect'. And 'Rascals'. There are more, but those three examples are the most egregious IMO. I hate it, but there it is.
Well as i see it the ocasions the Galaxy Class failed was mainly because of it's crew. Too self confident, too careless and not determined enough to use the full potential of the ship .
Just imagine how many "great" examples we would have got if a lunatic like Janeway would have been in command of a Galaxy Class ship. :eek:
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Correct me if I'm wrong, but whenever we saw the Sovereign Class on screen (Ent-E) it was almost assimilated and repeatedly blown to bits. The Ent-D had it's moments as well, but she handled herself a lot better during the show
While someone else has responded very well I wish to add that when the Enterprise arrives in First Contact she deliberately interposes herself between the borg and the Defiant. Her shields seemingly shrugging blast as though made to do precisely that.
In Insurrection they were going through a nebula, which from Wrath of Khan we know seems to drop shields. Along with a primary mission to get word to the Federation, not take however long it might take to engage an enemy and hope you survived. So they attempted running. When a nasty weapon goes off they ejected their main power. Sounds like they tied the ship's arms behind her back for that fight.
Not commenting on Nemesis, I heard enough to avoid watching it and having my love of Star Trek damaged.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Actually my defense in Generations is that the Enterprise in orbit looking at a missile launcher aimed at the star would have swatted that thing down before it got anywhere near the star.
So the writers had to remove the Enterprise as an obstacle in order to keep the tension high.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Thanks for the detailed response I just wanted to point out that many occasions we see something happening on screen or almost every single time it served a dramatic purpose. We have no evidence whatsoever to compare these two fictional vessel's combat performance - the only thing we can say for certain is that the Galaxy Class Enterprise surely held back most of her firepower because Picard (at least back then) sought a peaceful solution to conflict. I'm well aware that this is not what the majority of people want to see (anymore) though she ship still could handle herself quite well and there are numerous instances that show that they could make a Galaxy ready for conflict even on-the-fly.
Is one ship "better" than the other? I can't answer that. The ships served different purposes with the Sovereign being the probably more tactical focused ship while the Galaxy was the pinnacle of a multi-mission design philosophy. I do think however that the Gal could endure combat much better, something that is even represented in the game. The bad thing being that in STO it's pointless to endure combat as pretty much every ship has the ability to insta-heal if it survives the first "alpha strike" - no fictional debate about performance will change that fact, unfortunately.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I hate to say this but you're wrong. The Enterprise-E being assimilated was after it had turned the tide against the Borg Cube that was in spitting distance of earth. It also destroyed the sphere with a single torpedo salvo. Sure it was then boarded by borg and slowly assimilated, but a) that would have happened to the Enterprise-D as well and b) it is not indicative of the Sovereign's ability to withstand starship combat. It's an apples and oranges comparison.
In Insurrection it was getting it's TRIBBLE kicked, sure - by two starships of equivalent mass and power. Two to one odds and it was scraping by, long enough for Riker to do his metreon gas canister trick. And in Nemesis, despite being an execreable film, showed the Enterprise fight against a much superior opponent and ultimately prevail.
If in Generations it was the crew that was at fault for the destruction of the Enterprise D, in all the following films it was the crew that prevailed. Not the Enterprise E.
In First Contact it was not the Enterprise E that turned the tide. It was Picards inside information on the Borg and the status of their Cube. He could have directed the fleet from inside an escape pod and had the Cube destroyed.
Against the Sphere, it was an unshielded decoy target. That many Quantums should rock just about any unshielded target of that size we have seen onscreen to date.
In Insurrection, the Enterprise E showed no combat superiority. None.
In fact we only see her fire in order to disable life support systems on a much smaller ship and from inside her own shield bubble... apparently.
It was Rikers odd moment of lucky genius that saved the ship and turned the tide in their favor, not the ship.
Nemesis, they lost that fight. The Enterprise E was dead in the water. No power to anything, just batteries that were barely keeping lights and life support in critical areas of the ship.
Data saved the ship with his sacrifice. Not the Enterprise E.
As terrible as many of the TNG films have been at least the last two got the crew focus part right. Even if there is more space combat in Nemesis than we are accustomed to seeing, ever. Lol.
Thanks for the detailed response I just wanted to point out that many occasions we see something happening on screen or almost every single time it served a dramatic purpose. We have no evidence whatsoever to compare these two fictional vessel's combat performance - the only thing we can say for certain is that the Galaxy Class Enterprise surely held back most of her firepower because Picard (at least back then) sought a peaceful solution to conflict. I'm well aware that this is not what the majority of people want to see (anymore) though she ship still could handle herself quite well and there are numerous instances that show that they could make a Galaxy ready for conflict even on-the-fly.
Is one ship "better" than the other? I can't answer that. The ships served different purposes with the Sovereign being the probably more tactical focused ship while the Galaxy was the pinnacle of a multi-mission design philosophy. I do think however that the Gal could endure combat much better, something that is even represented in the game. The bad thing being that in STO it's pointless to endure combat as pretty much every ship has the ability to insta-heal if it survives the first "alpha strike" - no fictional debate about performance will change that fact, unfortunately.
Since this is a new thread :P
We can compare a lot about these two ships when it comes to weapon systems.
Ship speeds, and maneuverability. And a few other things, but yes, outside of that we really don't know.
Using Cryptic logic, the Galaxy is older than the Sovereign. So absolutely must be more powerful.
Also Galaxy class ships were used in the Dominion War. The Sovereign was not. So the Galaxy must be more powerful.
However, for actual in-game mechanics, I still think you folks should just fly the Risian Corvette and be happy Cryptic gave you all that awesome awesome ship to fly.
I really don't think you can compare the two ships (Galaxy and Sovereign). They are fictional ships that are as strong, powerful, weak, stupid and fast as the script needs it to be.
They were consistent with how the ships are shown and obvious strengths and weaknesses were chucked in favor of plot.
Also the Galaxy had seven seasons of wins and losses compared to the Sovereign's 3 movies.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I really don't think you can compare the two ships (Galaxy and Sovereign). They are fictional ships that are as strong, powerful, weak, stupid and fast as the script needs it to be.
They were consistent with how the ships are shown and obvious strengths and weaknesses were chucked in favor of plot.
Also the Galaxy had seven seasons of wins and losses compared to the Sovereign's 3 movies.
Yes and no.
We can still compare the consistent variables within the shows, both stated and observed.
Yes and no.
We can still compare the consistent variables within the shows, both stated and observed.
But I do agree with what you have said as well.
but what consistent variable was there?
For every instance of the Galaxy winning another instance of it losing can be brought up.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Well the thing about the times we have seen the galaxy fight, is that the galaxy was always chosen to face off against some random super ship from somewhere that is far more powerful then anything in the quadrant! (yes i am exaggerating a bit. point is, many times the enterprise, as well as many galaxy classes, where pushed into a fight that they could not beat for dramatic effect. since.. well what is more dramatic then having the biggest, most powerful ship in the federation getting the TRIBBLE beat out of it?)
so yes, it did win a lot. and it did loose a lot..
and the many times it lost, it was facing odds it could not beat. through super powerful ships from other quadrants (the borg cube for instance), or weird super beings.
the fact of the matter is, no this ship isn't (completely) a warship.
no it is not a weak, pathetic ship that some of you believe it to be.
it was a ship of many talents, able to be used in any situation due to its design. it can be a warship, a exploration ship, or a ship used for diplomatic missions.
the enterprise-D itself was used to be a "model ship". not for the front lines necessarily, but to be used as the basis for what the federation is. though it could easily be changed to a war ship, due to the way galaxy classes where built.
so here is the thing. why are so many of you against the galaxy being the way it should be? seriously, why is it so wrong? how does it effect you in any way?
if cryptic messed up the ship you felt is the most iconic, and messed it up. making it not the way it should be. wouldn't you want it to be changed?
anyways, all this arguing is needless, and useless. if you don't like the galaxy, then don't buy it and don't use it! if people want it to be actually fun and useable due to them liking the ship. why can't they?
but what consistent variable was there?
For every instance of the Galaxy winning another instance of it losing can be brought up.
Has nothing to do with wins or losses.
It has to do with observable effects and stated onscreen information.
As we mentioned in the earlier thread.
The way emitters are stated to work in the manual, and is not contradicted by any onscreen evidence and is backed up by effects and few phrases mentioned by Geordi.
Longer arrays are capable of greater outputs.
Also from onscreen evidence we can see that the Galaxy seems to carry a specific torpedo type than other ships and recieved upgrades that increased their output by 11% (The Intrepid is stated as carrying Type 6, 9 and 10 Photons.)
So larger arrays do more damage, along with factors such as speed at which it travels along the array and the number of emitters involved per shot.
The phaser shots are consistent throughout all 3 incarnations of the show where arrays are involved.
Has nothing to do with wins or losses.
It has to do with observable effects and stated onscreen information.
As we mentioned in the earlier thread.
The way emitters are stated to work in the manual, and is not contradicted by any onscreen evidence and is backed up by effects and few phrases mentioned by Geordi.
Longer arrays are capable of greater outputs.
Also from onscreen evidence we can see that the Galaxy seems to carry a specific torpedo type than other ships and recieved upgrades that increased their output by 11% (The Intrepid is stated as carrying Type 6, 9 and 10 Photons.)
So larger arrays do more damage, along with factors such as speed at which it travels along the array and the number of emitters involved per shot.
The phaser shots are consistent throughout all 3 incarnations of the show where arrays are involved.
soory i have seen no differnce between varying sizes of phaser arrays other than fire arc.
soory i have seen no differnce between varying sizes of phaser arrays other than fire arc.
Phasers are explained in the tech manual. the short version is that the longer the array is, the more emitters it has. each emitter is a self contained phaser bank, holding its own charge and can fire by it self. in an array setup though, it can combine the power its storing with all the rest of the emitters on the array to combine into a single powerful shot. thats the moving glow effect you see on an array before it fires.
We didn't see a Galaxy Class against a Borg Sphere, so we have no basis for a comparison.
But since a Galaxy is capabel to fire 10-20 Torpedoes per salvo, compared to a Sovereigns 3-4 i think a Galaxy Class would have performed just as good or even better.
I don't remember the Enterprise-D firing 10-20 torpedoes in a single salvo. At most I think we see half a dozen ('The Arsenal of Freedom')
Don't forget "TNG 3x03 The survivors", Enterprise -D encountered a (made up) Husnock ship which was supposed to forcefuly drive the Enterprise away from the planet. No matter if that Husnok was a illusion or not, the Galaxy showed it has teeth. The Enterprise did very well against that enemy IMHO.
Let's not forget Yesterday Enterprise (ok that was another timeline, but showed it was technically possible for a Galaxy Class to be made as a Battleship).
I haven't forgotten any of those examples. In 'Survivors' the fight isn't a true representation because the Husnock ship is an illusion. In 'Yesterday's Enterprise' it was an alternate timeline, but it still only took down one klingon BoP in that fight. Tasha Yar's line that it could carry six thousand troops makes me think it's more of a troop carrier than a battleship.
The Tamarian ship was about to start a War, while the Enterprise wanted a peaceful ending for that encounter. The Tamarian was not superior.
Yes it was. This is borne out in the episode.
You're right about the two ferengi BoPs, but that wasn't the ships fault more the incompetence of the first officer and security officer.
Since TNG hadn't much spaceship conflict, it isn't so obvious to see how strong the Galaxy Class really was.
*snip*
I agree that the crew didn't acquit themselves well in those examples. It doesn't make any sense, but we don't have much else to go on.
If in Generations it was the crew that was at fault for the destruction of the Enterprise D, in all the following films it was the crew that prevailed. Not the Enterprise E.
In First Contact it was not the Enterprise E that turned the tide. It was Picards inside information on the Borg and the status of their Cube. He could have directed the fleet from inside an escape pod and had the Cube destroyed.
*snip*
Conceded on the point about the Sphere being unshielded. However, I disagree that the Enterprise-E didn't turn the tide. She literally saved the Defiant by her timely arrival, and it was obvious (at least to me) that the Enterprise, being a fresh ship that was undamaged and unspent from an hours-long battle, was just what the rest of the fleet needed to stop the borg. Saying that Picard could have directed the fleet from an escape pod is hyperbole at its worst; even if Picard's knowledge was the deciding factor, it didn't hurt that he was firing his ship's weapons at the Borg. And having all the tactical knowledge in the world won't help you if you don't have anything to make use of that knowledge.
*snip*
As terrible as many of the TNG films have been at least the last two got the crew focus part right. Even if there is more space combat in Nemesis than we are accustomed to seeing, ever. Lol.
You might be right about Nemesis, I blocked out much of that film. Insurrection is just as bad, but someone mentioned that their primary mission was to get out of the Briar Patch to send a message to Starfleet. I still think that the Enterprise-E not succumbing to 2-on-1 odds is a mark in its favour.
Using Cryptic logic, the Galaxy is older than the Sovereign. So absolutely must be more powerful.
Also Galaxy class ships were used in the Dominion War. The Sovereign was not. So the Galaxy must be more powerful.
There are out-of-universe reasons why we don't see Sovereign-class ships in the Dominion War. Simply put Berman mandated that the Sovereign-class would be a films-only thing.
In-universe, there were ships that were never seen onscreen, but noncanon sources suggest were Sovereign-class ships. With that said, the Dominion War was a big thing, with battles taking place offscreen all the time. I'd say it's more possible than not that there were Sovereign-class ships present for those battles. There's also a bit of a scifi conceit wrt budget constraints lowering the scale of a battle, something which JMS from Babylon 5 said in response to how the Battle of the Line seemed tiny in depictions we saw of it in s1 through Sinclair's mind's eye. A battle is only as big as your viewpoint allows you to see. The Battle of the Bulge would be tiny when you're in one of the tanks and can only see a few km around you. In other words, you can't see the entire battle when you're right in the middle of it. Since we only ever saw the battles from the DS9 crew's perspective, we can't really say for certain whether or not there were any Sovereign-class ships present just because we don't see any onscreen. The Federation fleet in 'Sacrifice of Angels' numbered over six hundred strong, but we certainly don't see six hundred Federation ships present onscreen. At some point you just have to suspend your disbelief a little. Or otherwise you'll go a little mad, and post about it on an internet forum :P
We didn't see a Galaxy Class against a Borg Sphere, so we have no basis for a comparison.
But since a Galaxy is capabel to fire 10-20 Torpedoes per salvo, compared to a Sovereigns 3-4 i think a Galaxy Class would have performed just as good or even better.
I believe the difference is the quantum torpedo versus the photon torpedo.
Galaxy uses photons and Sovereign the quantum. Now I read somewhere that a quantum torpedo is a photon torpedo with a shaped charge so most of its power is spent inside an enemy vessel as opposed to pyrotechnics in space. Does anyone have an explanation from the show(s)?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I haven't forgotten any of those examples. In 'Survivors' the fight isn't a true representation because the Husnock ship is an illusion. In 'Yesterday's Enterprise' it was an alternate timeline, but it still only took down one klingon BoP in that fight. Tasha Yar's line that it could carry six thousand troops makes me think it's more of a troop carrier than a battleship.
The husnok fight is still valid, since only the husnok ship was an illusion, not the enterprise. They could have fired at a asteroid just as well. The point is the Galaxy Class CAN be deadly if the captain decides if it's neccessary.
In TNG picard was mainly a diplomat, not John McLance 2.0 as in the Movies.
Yesterdays Enterprise only shows what could be done with a Galaxy Class ship if outfitted for War, i could imagine a fully refitted Dominion War Galaxy Class had similar characteristics. 6000 troops may sound a lot, but since there is a lot of space and no one said every one of those 6000 people has to get a admiral sized quarters, there shouldn't be a problem.
I agree that the crew didn't acquit themselves well in those examples. It doesn't make any sense, but we don't have much else to go on.
Most of those incidents, where purely author driven. I think we should more focus on how the Galaxy Classes performed in the Dominion War, where none was destroyed btw.
Conceded on the point about the Sphere being unshielded. However, I disagree that the Enterprise-E didn't turn the tide. She literally saved the Defiant by her timely arrival, and it was obvious (at least to me) that the Enterprise, being a fresh ship that was undamaged and unspent from an hours-long battle, was just what the rest of the fleet needed to stop the borg. Saying that Picard could have directed the fleet from an escape pod is hyperbole at its worst; even if Picard's knowledge was the deciding factor, it didn't hurt that he was firing his ship's weapons at the Borg. And having all the tactical knowledge in the world won't help you if you don't have anything to make use of that knowledge.
There where so many ship involved, i don't think one single ship, even if it's the enterprise did turn the tide.
It was Picard intuition that made the difference, ironically the same element of uncertainty the admirals didn't want to have in the battle, saved earth. Picard could have joined the battle in a ferengi garbage freighter, it wouldn't have made much of a difference. All surviving ships fired at the weak point of the Borg Cube, not just the enterprise.
Btw. i think ST8 would have been much better with a Enterprise -D IMO, instead with a completely unknown ship the audience doesn't know.
Well the thing about the times we have seen the galaxy fight, is that the galaxy was always chosen to face off against some random super ship from somewhere that is far more powerful then anything in the quadrant! (yes i am exaggerating a bit. point is, many times the enterprise, as well as many galaxy classes, where pushed into a fight that they could not beat for dramatic effect. since.. well what is more dramatic then having the biggest, most powerful ship in the federation getting the TRIBBLE beat out of it?)
so yes, it did win a lot. and it did loose a lot..
and the many times it lost, it was facing odds it could not beat. through super powerful ships from other quadrants (the borg cube for instance), or weird super beings.
the fact of the matter is, no this ship isn't (completely) a warship.
no it is not a weak, pathetic ship that some of you believe it to be.
I fully agree.
The biggest advantage that wasn't very obvious was that the Galaxy Class was very versatile. Yes the Enterprise -D wasn't a warship, because it wasn't it's mission to go to war.
If TNG would have taken place in the Dominon War, we would have seen a completely different outfitted Galaxy Class (and another captain would have behaved different Bwt.)
it was a ship of many talents, able to be used in any situation due to its design. it can be a warship, a exploration ship, or a ship used for diplomatic missions.
the enterprise-D itself was used to be a "model ship". not for the front lines necessarily, but to be used as the basis for what the federation is. though it could easily be changed to a war ship, due to the way galaxy classes where built.
so here is the thing. why are so many of you against the galaxy being the way it should be? seriously, why is it so wrong? how does it effect you in any way?
if cryptic messed up the ship you felt is the most iconic, and messed it up. making it not the way it should be. wouldn't you want it to be changed?
anyways, all this arguing is needless, and useless. if you don't like the galaxy, then don't buy it and don't use it! if people want it to be actually fun and useable due to them liking the ship. why can't they?
I don't get that either my friend.
I mean there is the Sovereign and the Excelsior (only to mention Starfleet ships), both very strong cruisers. Why is the Galaxy Class supposed to be the weakest of ALL Crusiers in the whole game?
I can tolerate if someone doesn't like the Galaxy Class, but that's no reason wanting it to be the least useable and weakest ship in the game.
Just as you said, if someone doesn't like it, fly aonther ship and ignore the existance of the Galaxy.
Very simple.
Personally i always hated the Excelsior, even since i first saw it in ST III in 1984. But i wouln't want it's fans to fly a weaker ship, just because i hate it. That would be very egocentric IMO, althrough in "real" Star Trek the Galaxy Class should be superior in every sense.
Let's be honest, STO isn't the most canon game in the world. Having a weak, unuseable and un-fun to fly Galaxy Class doesn't make any sense IMO.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Being a Trekkie for a long time - longer than most of you've been alive, and being a technical type person I loved the TNG Tech manual.
The Galaxy Class was the Capital ship of Starfleet/Federation in the TNG era. It had a modular design in that it's whole structure could be refitted for almost any purpose. Same with the Nebula Class, it too was modular in design - although not much cannon information is available about the POD for the Nebula - it has some interesting possibilities. The same goes for the Galaxy Class in the possibilities for it's layout. One thing that caught my eye when I first read the TNG Tech Manual was that you could theoretically fly her with a PADD!!!
I also remember from some where that she had many modular compartments that where not 'installed' when she had her maiden voyage. There in is the ability to configure the GCS in almost any way you want or need.
As for the GCS (Galaxy Class Starship) being a carrier - I extremely doubt it because of her role "Explorer." Not to mention the Akira.
As for the current "Dreadnought" GCS... Too far fetched. There's no need for a 3rd nacelle. The nacelle's provide a subspace bubble, it was found early on that even having 4 nacelle's was not worth the power necessary to push the ship only a little bit deeper into subspace; therefore a 3rd nacelle is illogical. For a "Dreadnought" you would want less crew and a much larger warp core.
Now - if we go with the current definition of "Capital Ship" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_ship
"The capital ships of a navy are its most important warships; they generally possess the heaviest firepower and armor and are traditionally much larger than other naval vessels. A capital ship is generally a leading or a primary ship in a naval fleet."
Now if you add "Capital Ship" with "Explorer" that fits the Enterprise D to a "T." As shown in the series. What we didn't get to see is the versatility of the Big D.
Here's what I've been thinking for the GCS and the Nebula: "Add a module slot. That slot defines it's layout to a degree. You can make the GCS or Neb a "Science Ship", "Heavy Cruiser"/"War type ship" or 'etc.' That could apply to many Fed ships since the Nebula class. With the Nebula Class it would be a 'special Pod' for the type of module; IE: A different looking pod for a tactical layout as opposed to a science layout. I'm pretty sure it's been noted that one had a science pod; which lead to the speculation that she could have a 'warfare pod' and any other type of pod you wanted. The same would also be true of the Soverign Class ships; since she was 'built around the GCS.' The 'modular design' built into those ships made it a more efficient design. Since it was less costly to change the layout of a ship than to have an entirely different class to fill a specific role.
Here's what I've been thinking for the GCS and the Nebula: "Add a module slot. That slot defines it's layout to a degree. You can make the GCS or Neb a "Science Ship", "Heavy Cruiser"/"War type ship" or 'etc.' That could apply to many Fed ships since the Nebula class. With the Nebula Class it would be a 'special Pod' for the type of module; IE: A different looking pod for a tactical layout as opposed to a science layout. I'm pretty sure it's been noted that one had a science pod; which lead to the speculation that she could have a 'warfare pod' and any other type of pod you wanted. The same would also be true of the Soverign Class ships; since she was 'built around the GCS.' The 'modular design' built into those ships made it a more efficient design. Since it was less costly to change the layout of a ship than to have an entirely different class to fill a specific role.
I agree to almost everythign you said.
I like the paragraph about the pods.
I think a evolution of the Gal could have been NOT to add a third nacelle, but a pod.
Of course not as high positioned as the Gal -X third nacelle, but a bit lower and slightly a bit more to the rear, i think it would have been a much better addition for the Galaxy -X.
I like acronym GCS, im going to use that.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Yeah but that's not canon. I have it too and I've read parts of it, but nothing in it is necessarily 'true' insofar as what is canonically established by the shows. The most the Enterprise has fired in one salvo was half a dozen in 'The Arsenal of Freedom'.
Hell even the TM itself said that some of the stuff might be carefully placed disinformation to give potential 'Threat forces' the wrong idea. Read the authors' introduction. They were obviously being tongue-in-cheek, and I don't have a problem with Rick Sternbach and Mike Okuda saying that the Enterprise could fire 10 photon torpedoes in one salvo - but if it could, why don't you think the Sovereign could as well?
The husnok fight is still valid, since only the husnok ship was an illusion, not the enterprise. They could have fired at a asteroid just as well. The point is the Galaxy Class CAN be deadly if the captain decides if it's neccessary.
Yeah I know it can cut loose when it wants to. The point I've tried to make though is that it often gets its TRIBBLE handed to it, in some truly bizarre ways. Like the 'Cause and Effect' example is pretty egregious.
Most of those incidents, where purely author driven. I think we should more focus on how the Galaxy Classes performed in the Dominion War, where none was destroyed btw.
Look if you want to agree on this then so will I: I think the Galaxy-class could stand to get a boost of some kind, probably in its boff seating arrangement more than any other area. I don't agree that it's better suited for battleship role, I think the multi-mission aspect of it instead lends itself well to the kind of boff seats the D'Deridex has.
I don't have any problem with the idea that the Galaxy could use some TLC in-game. I just don't necessarily agree that it should be a battleship per se.
(...) I don't have any problem with the idea that the Galaxy could use some TLC in-game. I just don't necessarily agree that it should be a battleship per se.
I do think so as well, but the overly simple gamedesign unfortunately dictates that everything not "tactical" is just obsolete. We had plenty of good suggestions in both Galaxy threads, yet most of it is so far out of reach that it'll just stay that - a unheard suggestion. I really like the module/pod suggestion, though.
I think we will never see the Gal's BOFF seats changed. Ever. Because it's a payship, people paid money for THIS ship - they cannot change that, it doesn't matter if it's useless now due to the "evolved" (lol) gamedesign. They can just add stuff to it - maybe those module slots could offer some boni to boost damage or add another ability like a universal console or something. Everything else would mean they had to completely overhaul how ships work - this would certainly be necessary but would essentially change the game fundamentally - that will not happen either, STO is final the way it is. I hope they'll proof me wrong at some point, though
Actually there's no reason why the Excelsior even after extensive refitting, should outclass both the Gal AND the Sovereign. All of those ships should actually be able to use the same BOFF seating, the sovereign should have one tac console more than the others and a higher agility (turnrate, innertia) but lesser crew while the Gal should have more crew, one more eng console, more hull but lesser agility. The Excelsior... well, shouldn't be up there, but for the sake of "it's just a big trek themed playground" should fit somewhere in between somehow.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Yeah but that's not canon. I have it too and I've read parts of it, but nothing in it is necessarily 'true' insofar as what is canonically established by the shows. The most the Enterprise has fired in one salvo was half a dozen in 'The Arsenal of Freedom'.
Hell even the TM itself said that some of the stuff might be carefully placed disinformation to give potential 'Threat forces' the wrong idea. Read the authors' introduction. They were obviously being tongue-in-cheek, and I don't have a problem with Rick Sternbach and Mike Okuda saying that the Enterprise could fire 10 photon torpedoes in one salvo - but if it could, why don't you think the Sovereign could as well?
We never saw her doing that.
I think the Sovereign got more simple torpedo Launchers distrubuted everywhere on the hull, in order not to rely on two big single launcers (forward and backwards). Maybe the GCS torpedo Launchers where just too big or where too complicated to maintenance.
Yeah I know it can cut loose when it wants to. The point I've tried to make though is that it often gets its TRIBBLE handed to it, in some truly bizarre ways. Like the 'Cause and Effect' example is pretty egregious.
I think the producers of TNG didn't like the GCS very much, since they took every chance to blow her up, which ended in replacing her with a ship more to their taste.
BTW: the Sovereign would have been much more in danger in "cause and effect" since its nacelles are rediculusly big.
Look if you want to agree on this then so will I: I think the Galaxy-class could stand to get a boost of some kind, probably in its boff seating arrangement more than any other area. I don't agree that it's better suited for battleship role, I think the multi-mission aspect of it instead lends itself well to the kind of boff seats the D'Deridex has.
I don't have any problem with the idea that the Galaxy could use some TLC in-game. I just don't necessarily agree that it should be a battleship per se.
Maybe i have put it in the wrong way, my point was that the GCS can take the role of a battleship as well as a Science ship.
I think it's capability to servs as a frontline Battleship is highly underestimated by Cryptic, since they made it a ship that can only take damage, but not dish out some. (that's what annoys me most.)
Just because it doesn't look like a Military badass ship doesn't mean the GCS is a flying living room.
It's huge size allows that ship to be just as good in Exploration as in Warfare. Most likely it's harder to maintenance than a more specialized ship like the Sovereign, but their battle effectiveness is most likely the same IMO.
I VERY agree with you in giving the GCS a more Multi mission BOFF layout similar to the D'Deridex, althrough i would change the tac+universal ensing into a engineering Lt. or a universal Lt. in order to accent the Mulit mission nature of the GCS.
As i already said i think the D'Deridex console layout would be PERFECT for the GCS.
I will add this idea to my Mirror Exploration Cruiser thread.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Thoughts on the nacelles.
Nacelle actually means engine. Originally they provided all of the speed of the ship. (Later retconned)
And we get lines about diverting power from them to other systems as though they contain that power in a usable manner. I know some might say, 'no they stopped feeding power to the one or both nacelles to reinforce some other system.' But if you are at sublight, why are you powering your warp system at all?
So either the nacelles provide power.
Store power.
Or using the bussard scoops, gather fuel.
Any one of those reason would be a good one to put a third nacelle on a ship that just went power hungry from added systems.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Comments
In this case "racing Car" just meant a more specialized ship.
Of course we saw the Sovereign fight superior forces, but if some stupid first officer hadn't destroyed the -D we would have seen the Enerprise -D doing exactly the same thing.
The -D was a generalist, while the -E was a specialist. Althrough the Galaxy has a much higher interior volume and thus more space for equipment like fusion reactors and other things. If both ships where equipped with the latest technology (which they surely are), they would be equal strong in battle, except the Galaxy would be more versatile and a more multi mission ship.
So the Galaxy might be bigger and a bit slower then a Sovereign, but also she has more reserves and capacities for Torpedoes and fusion reactors to support shield systems and weapons.
Also we have seen the Soveriegn fire 3-4 torpedoes at max, the Galaxy althrough she only has 1 forward and 1 rear Torpedo Launcher is capable to fire salvos of 10-20 torpedoes at once.
So yes, i think the Galaxy class is still the heavier ship and should be considered this way in STO.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but whenever we saw the Sovereign Class on screen (Ent-E) it was almost assimilated and repeatedly blown to bits. The Ent-D had it's moments as well, but she handled herself a lot better during the show
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In Insurrection it was getting it's TRIBBLE kicked, sure - by two starships of equivalent mass and power. Two to one odds and it was scraping by, long enough for Riker to do his metreon gas canister trick. And in Nemesis, despite being an execreable film, showed the Enterprise fight against a much superior opponent and ultimately prevail.
Now I don't want to pick on the Enterprise-D, but outside of its performance against the Borg cube in Best of Both Worlds, it leaves much to be desired as a combat ship. Two B'rel class BoPs were enough to ambush it and to fall... to Ferengi boarders. The Tamarian ship in 'Darmok' was also superior, and could have destroyed the Enterprise if Picard hadn't arrived on the bridge with his breakthrough in communications. In 'Transfigurations' some alien ship turned off the life support on the Enterprise in some unknown way.
There are two more incidents which are most damning, but admittedly it's hard to reconcile either of these events with the examples of the Enterprise being tough. Generations getting punked by Lursa and B'etor. And 'Cause and Effect' where a slight bump on the starboard nacelle resulted in a catastrophic explosion. The first one is inconsistent with what we've seen the Enterprise dish out when they need to fight, and honestly it was possibly the lamest part of Generations. I don't care if Lursa and B'etor had the Enterprise's shield frequency, the Enterprise should have been able to take care of itself. And as for 'Cause and Effect', I don't know what the hell they were thinking, because that collision looked like TRIBBLE. We've seen the Enterprise withstand greater damage than that.
But unfortunately, those examples are still canon. We have two extremes, on one side you have episodes like 'Survivors' and 'Best of Both Worlds' that has the Enterprise launch multiple weapons salvoes. ('Survivors' isn't a fair representation though, as the Husnock warship was an illusion) On the other end, you have Generations. And 'Cause and Effect'. And 'Rascals'. There are more, but those three examples are the most egregious IMO. I hate it, but there it is.
But since a Galaxy is capabel to fire 10-20 Torpedoes per salvo, compared to a Sovereigns 3-4 i think a Galaxy Class would have performed just as good or even better.
Just as the -D did.
Don't forget "TNG 3x03 The survivors", Enterprise -D encountered a (made up) Husnock ship which was supposed to forcefuly drive the Enterprise away from the planet. No matter if that Husnok was a illusion or not, the Galaxy showed it has teeth. The Enterprise did very well against that enemy IMHO.
Let's not forget Yesterday Enterprise (ok that was another timeline, but showed it was technically possible for a Galaxy Class to be made as a Battleship).
The Tamarian ship was about to start a War, while the Enterprise wanted a peaceful ending for that encounter. The Tamarian was not superior.
You're right about the two ferengi BoPs, but that wasn't the ships fault more the incompetence of the first officer and security officer.
Since TNG hadn't much spaceship conflict, it isn't so obvious to see how strong the Galaxy Class really was.
Well, every ship (i mean really EVERY ship) would have been destroyed if it's crew is so incompetent as the Crew in Generations. (Half of the Bridge Crew should have been court martialed, and the other half should never ever set step on a Starfleet ship again IMO.)
Are you sure you are talking about the Galaxy Class or the production staff of TNG?
Most of the time the Enterprise didn't do well was because of reasons which no other ship would have hardly even survived.
Well as i see it the ocasions the Galaxy Class failed was mainly because of it's crew. Too self confident, too careless and not determined enough to use the full potential of the ship .
Just imagine how many "great" examples we would have got if a lunatic like Janeway would have been in command of a Galaxy Class ship. :eek:
While someone else has responded very well I wish to add that when the Enterprise arrives in First Contact she deliberately interposes herself between the borg and the Defiant. Her shields seemingly shrugging blast as though made to do precisely that.
In Insurrection they were going through a nebula, which from Wrath of Khan we know seems to drop shields. Along with a primary mission to get word to the Federation, not take however long it might take to engage an enemy and hope you survived. So they attempted running. When a nasty weapon goes off they ejected their main power. Sounds like they tied the ship's arms behind her back for that fight.
Not commenting on Nemesis, I heard enough to avoid watching it and having my love of Star Trek damaged.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
So the writers had to remove the Enterprise as an obstacle in order to keep the tension high.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Is one ship "better" than the other? I can't answer that. The ships served different purposes with the Sovereign being the probably more tactical focused ship while the Galaxy was the pinnacle of a multi-mission design philosophy. I do think however that the Gal could endure combat much better, something that is even represented in the game. The bad thing being that in STO it's pointless to endure combat as pretty much every ship has the ability to insta-heal if it survives the first "alpha strike" - no fictional debate about performance will change that fact, unfortunately.
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If in Generations it was the crew that was at fault for the destruction of the Enterprise D, in all the following films it was the crew that prevailed. Not the Enterprise E.
In First Contact it was not the Enterprise E that turned the tide. It was Picards inside information on the Borg and the status of their Cube. He could have directed the fleet from inside an escape pod and had the Cube destroyed.
Against the Sphere, it was an unshielded decoy target. That many Quantums should rock just about any unshielded target of that size we have seen onscreen to date.
In Insurrection, the Enterprise E showed no combat superiority. None.
In fact we only see her fire in order to disable life support systems on a much smaller ship and from inside her own shield bubble... apparently.
It was Rikers odd moment of lucky genius that saved the ship and turned the tide in their favor, not the ship.
Nemesis, they lost that fight. The Enterprise E was dead in the water. No power to anything, just batteries that were barely keeping lights and life support in critical areas of the ship.
Data saved the ship with his sacrifice. Not the Enterprise E.
As terrible as many of the TNG films have been at least the last two got the crew focus part right. Even if there is more space combat in Nemesis than we are accustomed to seeing, ever. Lol.
Since this is a new thread :P
We can compare a lot about these two ships when it comes to weapon systems.
Ship speeds, and maneuverability. And a few other things, but yes, outside of that we really don't know.
Also Galaxy class ships were used in the Dominion War. The Sovereign was not. So the Galaxy must be more powerful.
However, for actual in-game mechanics, I still think you folks should just fly the Risian Corvette and be happy Cryptic gave you all that awesome awesome ship to fly.
They were consistent with how the ships are shown and obvious strengths and weaknesses were chucked in favor of plot.
Also the Galaxy had seven seasons of wins and losses compared to the Sovereign's 3 movies.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Yes and no.
We can still compare the consistent variables within the shows, both stated and observed.
But I do agree with what you have said as well.
but what consistent variable was there?
For every instance of the Galaxy winning another instance of it losing can be brought up.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
so yes, it did win a lot. and it did loose a lot..
and the many times it lost, it was facing odds it could not beat. through super powerful ships from other quadrants (the borg cube for instance), or weird super beings.
the fact of the matter is, no this ship isn't (completely) a warship.
no it is not a weak, pathetic ship that some of you believe it to be.
it was a ship of many talents, able to be used in any situation due to its design. it can be a warship, a exploration ship, or a ship used for diplomatic missions.
the enterprise-D itself was used to be a "model ship". not for the front lines necessarily, but to be used as the basis for what the federation is. though it could easily be changed to a war ship, due to the way galaxy classes where built.
so here is the thing. why are so many of you against the galaxy being the way it should be? seriously, why is it so wrong? how does it effect you in any way?
if cryptic messed up the ship you felt is the most iconic, and messed it up. making it not the way it should be. wouldn't you want it to be changed?
anyways, all this arguing is needless, and useless. if you don't like the galaxy, then don't buy it and don't use it! if people want it to be actually fun and useable due to them liking the ship. why can't they?
Has nothing to do with wins or losses.
It has to do with observable effects and stated onscreen information.
As we mentioned in the earlier thread.
The way emitters are stated to work in the manual, and is not contradicted by any onscreen evidence and is backed up by effects and few phrases mentioned by Geordi.
Longer arrays are capable of greater outputs.
Also from onscreen evidence we can see that the Galaxy seems to carry a specific torpedo type than other ships and recieved upgrades that increased their output by 11% (The Intrepid is stated as carrying Type 6, 9 and 10 Photons.)
So larger arrays do more damage, along with factors such as speed at which it travels along the array and the number of emitters involved per shot.
The phaser shots are consistent throughout all 3 incarnations of the show where arrays are involved.
soory i have seen no differnce between varying sizes of phaser arrays other than fire arc.
there ya go
I haven't forgotten any of those examples. In 'Survivors' the fight isn't a true representation because the Husnock ship is an illusion. In 'Yesterday's Enterprise' it was an alternate timeline, but it still only took down one klingon BoP in that fight. Tasha Yar's line that it could carry six thousand troops makes me think it's more of a troop carrier than a battleship.
Yes it was. This is borne out in the episode.
I agree that the crew didn't acquit themselves well in those examples. It doesn't make any sense, but we don't have much else to go on.
Conceded on the point about the Sphere being unshielded. However, I disagree that the Enterprise-E didn't turn the tide. She literally saved the Defiant by her timely arrival, and it was obvious (at least to me) that the Enterprise, being a fresh ship that was undamaged and unspent from an hours-long battle, was just what the rest of the fleet needed to stop the borg. Saying that Picard could have directed the fleet from an escape pod is hyperbole at its worst; even if Picard's knowledge was the deciding factor, it didn't hurt that he was firing his ship's weapons at the Borg. And having all the tactical knowledge in the world won't help you if you don't have anything to make use of that knowledge.
You might be right about Nemesis, I blocked out much of that film. Insurrection is just as bad, but someone mentioned that their primary mission was to get out of the Briar Patch to send a message to Starfleet. I still think that the Enterprise-E not succumbing to 2-on-1 odds is a mark in its favour.
But yeah, both films were bad.
There are out-of-universe reasons why we don't see Sovereign-class ships in the Dominion War. Simply put Berman mandated that the Sovereign-class would be a films-only thing.
In-universe, there were ships that were never seen onscreen, but noncanon sources suggest were Sovereign-class ships. With that said, the Dominion War was a big thing, with battles taking place offscreen all the time. I'd say it's more possible than not that there were Sovereign-class ships present for those battles. There's also a bit of a scifi conceit wrt budget constraints lowering the scale of a battle, something which JMS from Babylon 5 said in response to how the Battle of the Line seemed tiny in depictions we saw of it in s1 through Sinclair's mind's eye. A battle is only as big as your viewpoint allows you to see. The Battle of the Bulge would be tiny when you're in one of the tanks and can only see a few km around you. In other words, you can't see the entire battle when you're right in the middle of it. Since we only ever saw the battles from the DS9 crew's perspective, we can't really say for certain whether or not there were any Sovereign-class ships present just because we don't see any onscreen. The Federation fleet in 'Sacrifice of Angels' numbered over six hundred strong, but we certainly don't see six hundred Federation ships present onscreen. At some point you just have to suspend your disbelief a little. Or otherwise you'll go a little mad, and post about it on an internet forum :P
but the tech manulay isn't proven on screen, that's the point. we have seen many ships with the arrays are spilt when they can be easily unified.
I believe the difference is the quantum torpedo versus the photon torpedo.
Galaxy uses photons and Sovereign the quantum. Now I read somewhere that a quantum torpedo is a photon torpedo with a shaped charge so most of its power is spent inside an enemy vessel as opposed to pyrotechnics in space. Does anyone have an explanation from the show(s)?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The husnok fight is still valid, since only the husnok ship was an illusion, not the enterprise. They could have fired at a asteroid just as well. The point is the Galaxy Class CAN be deadly if the captain decides if it's neccessary.
In TNG picard was mainly a diplomat, not John McLance 2.0 as in the Movies.
Yesterdays Enterprise only shows what could be done with a Galaxy Class ship if outfitted for War, i could imagine a fully refitted Dominion War Galaxy Class had similar characteristics. 6000 troops may sound a lot, but since there is a lot of space and no one said every one of those 6000 people has to get a admiral sized quarters, there shouldn't be a problem.
Most of those incidents, where purely author driven. I think we should more focus on how the Galaxy Classes performed in the Dominion War, where none was destroyed btw.
There where so many ship involved, i don't think one single ship, even if it's the enterprise did turn the tide.
It was Picard intuition that made the difference, ironically the same element of uncertainty the admirals didn't want to have in the battle, saved earth. Picard could have joined the battle in a ferengi garbage freighter, it wouldn't have made much of a difference. All surviving ships fired at the weak point of the Borg Cube, not just the enterprise.
Btw. i think ST8 would have been much better with a Enterprise -D IMO, instead with a completely unknown ship the audience doesn't know.
I fully agree.
The biggest advantage that wasn't very obvious was that the Galaxy Class was very versatile. Yes the Enterprise -D wasn't a warship, because it wasn't it's mission to go to war.
If TNG would have taken place in the Dominon War, we would have seen a completely different outfitted Galaxy Class (and another captain would have behaved different Bwt.)
I don't get that either my friend.
I mean there is the Sovereign and the Excelsior (only to mention Starfleet ships), both very strong cruisers. Why is the Galaxy Class supposed to be the weakest of ALL Crusiers in the whole game?
I can tolerate if someone doesn't like the Galaxy Class, but that's no reason wanting it to be the least useable and weakest ship in the game.
Just as you said, if someone doesn't like it, fly aonther ship and ignore the existance of the Galaxy.
Very simple.
Personally i always hated the Excelsior, even since i first saw it in ST III in 1984. But i wouln't want it's fans to fly a weaker ship, just because i hate it. That would be very egocentric IMO, althrough in "real" Star Trek the Galaxy Class should be superior in every sense.
Let's be honest, STO isn't the most canon game in the world. Having a weak, unuseable and un-fun to fly Galaxy Class doesn't make any sense IMO.
Being a Trekkie for a long time - longer than most of you've been alive, and being a technical type person I loved the TNG Tech manual.
The Galaxy Class was the Capital ship of Starfleet/Federation in the TNG era. It had a modular design in that it's whole structure could be refitted for almost any purpose. Same with the Nebula Class, it too was modular in design - although not much cannon information is available about the POD for the Nebula - it has some interesting possibilities. The same goes for the Galaxy Class in the possibilities for it's layout. One thing that caught my eye when I first read the TNG Tech Manual was that you could theoretically fly her with a PADD!!!
I also remember from some where that she had many modular compartments that where not 'installed' when she had her maiden voyage. There in is the ability to configure the GCS in almost any way you want or need.
As for the GCS (Galaxy Class Starship) being a carrier - I extremely doubt it because of her role "Explorer." Not to mention the Akira.
As for the current "Dreadnought" GCS... Too far fetched. There's no need for a 3rd nacelle. The nacelle's provide a subspace bubble, it was found early on that even having 4 nacelle's was not worth the power necessary to push the ship only a little bit deeper into subspace; therefore a 3rd nacelle is illogical. For a "Dreadnought" you would want less crew and a much larger warp core.
Now - if we go with the current definition of "Capital Ship"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_ship
"The capital ships of a navy are its most important warships; they generally possess the heaviest firepower and armor and are traditionally much larger than other naval vessels. A capital ship is generally a leading or a primary ship in a naval fleet."
Now if you add "Capital Ship" with "Explorer" that fits the Enterprise D to a "T." As shown in the series. What we didn't get to see is the versatility of the Big D.
Here's what I've been thinking for the GCS and the Nebula: "Add a module slot. That slot defines it's layout to a degree. You can make the GCS or Neb a "Science Ship", "Heavy Cruiser"/"War type ship" or 'etc.' That could apply to many Fed ships since the Nebula class. With the Nebula Class it would be a 'special Pod' for the type of module; IE: A different looking pod for a tactical layout as opposed to a science layout. I'm pretty sure it's been noted that one had a science pod; which lead to the speculation that she could have a 'warfare pod' and any other type of pod you wanted. The same would also be true of the Soverign Class ships; since she was 'built around the GCS.' The 'modular design' built into those ships made it a more efficient design. Since it was less costly to change the layout of a ship than to have an entirely different class to fill a specific role.
I agree to almost everythign you said.
I like the paragraph about the pods.
I think a evolution of the Gal could have been NOT to add a third nacelle, but a pod.
Of course not as high positioned as the Gal -X third nacelle, but a bit lower and slightly a bit more to the rear, i think it would have been a much better addition for the Galaxy -X.
I like acronym GCS, im going to use that.
Hell even the TM itself said that some of the stuff might be carefully placed disinformation to give potential 'Threat forces' the wrong idea. Read the authors' introduction. They were obviously being tongue-in-cheek, and I don't have a problem with Rick Sternbach and Mike Okuda saying that the Enterprise could fire 10 photon torpedoes in one salvo - but if it could, why don't you think the Sovereign could as well?
Yeah I know it can cut loose when it wants to. The point I've tried to make though is that it often gets its TRIBBLE handed to it, in some truly bizarre ways. Like the 'Cause and Effect' example is pretty egregious.
Look if you want to agree on this then so will I: I think the Galaxy-class could stand to get a boost of some kind, probably in its boff seating arrangement more than any other area. I don't agree that it's better suited for battleship role, I think the multi-mission aspect of it instead lends itself well to the kind of boff seats the D'Deridex has.
I don't have any problem with the idea that the Galaxy could use some TLC in-game. I just don't necessarily agree that it should be a battleship per se.
I do think so as well, but the overly simple gamedesign unfortunately dictates that everything not "tactical" is just obsolete. We had plenty of good suggestions in both Galaxy threads, yet most of it is so far out of reach that it'll just stay that - a unheard suggestion. I really like the module/pod suggestion, though.
I think we will never see the Gal's BOFF seats changed. Ever. Because it's a payship, people paid money for THIS ship - they cannot change that, it doesn't matter if it's useless now due to the "evolved" (lol) gamedesign. They can just add stuff to it - maybe those module slots could offer some boni to boost damage or add another ability like a universal console or something. Everything else would mean they had to completely overhaul how ships work - this would certainly be necessary but would essentially change the game fundamentally - that will not happen either, STO is final the way it is. I hope they'll proof me wrong at some point, though
Actually there's no reason why the Excelsior even after extensive refitting, should outclass both the Gal AND the Sovereign. All of those ships should actually be able to use the same BOFF seating, the sovereign should have one tac console more than the others and a higher agility (turnrate, innertia) but lesser crew while the Gal should have more crew, one more eng console, more hull but lesser agility. The Excelsior... well, shouldn't be up there, but for the sake of "it's just a big trek themed playground" should fit somewhere in between somehow.
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I think the Sovereign got more simple torpedo Launchers distrubuted everywhere on the hull, in order not to rely on two big single launcers (forward and backwards). Maybe the GCS torpedo Launchers where just too big or where too complicated to maintenance.
I think the producers of TNG didn't like the GCS very much, since they took every chance to blow her up, which ended in replacing her with a ship more to their taste.
BTW: the Sovereign would have been much more in danger in "cause and effect" since its nacelles are rediculusly big.
Maybe i have put it in the wrong way, my point was that the GCS can take the role of a battleship as well as a Science ship.
I think it's capability to servs as a frontline Battleship is highly underestimated by Cryptic, since they made it a ship that can only take damage, but not dish out some. (that's what annoys me most.)
Just because it doesn't look like a Military badass ship doesn't mean the GCS is a flying living room.
It's huge size allows that ship to be just as good in Exploration as in Warfare. Most likely it's harder to maintenance than a more specialized ship like the Sovereign, but their battle effectiveness is most likely the same IMO.
I VERY agree with you in giving the GCS a more Multi mission BOFF layout similar to the D'Deridex, althrough i would change the tac+universal ensing into a engineering Lt. or a universal Lt. in order to accent the Mulit mission nature of the GCS.
As i already said i think the D'Deridex console layout would be PERFECT for the GCS.
I will add this idea to my Mirror Exploration Cruiser thread.
Nacelle actually means engine. Originally they provided all of the speed of the ship. (Later retconned)
And we get lines about diverting power from them to other systems as though they contain that power in a usable manner. I know some might say, 'no they stopped feeding power to the one or both nacelles to reinforce some other system.' But if you are at sublight, why are you powering your warp system at all?
So either the nacelles provide power.
Store power.
Or using the bussard scoops, gather fuel.
Any one of those reason would be a good one to put a third nacelle on a ship that just went power hungry from added systems.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.