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humblesheep
Member Posts: 423 Arc User
We started our Starbase after finishing all the Romulan missions, as there was nothing left in the game we had not already done to death.
We were going ok (mostly as we started with a lot of reserves), and nearing T3 when we got to the first T2 Dilithium Mine upgrade: 5K Fleet Marks and 1/3 of a million Dilithium, not to mention the sheer lunacy (and I mean the boredom and repetition) of nearly 600 Doffs!
We can just about cover that, and maybe the next one, but after that, there is just no way we are ever going to get any further.
So good-by Fleet, and good-by buying any new toys; and if you cant get new toys, there is a lot less point in playing the game at all.
If Cryptic does not do something to help the smaller fleets (and please dont say the Mine helps in any way) then we are not going to be the only ones walking away. Just look at the mismatch between entry level and elite PvP - "the few" now dominate "the many" so badly that "the many" just quit.
I would say that my fleet has all quit, however there arent enough left of us to quit and be even noticed. Why couldnt Cryptic have made this a game for everyone.
We were going ok (mostly as we started with a lot of reserves), and nearing T3 when we got to the first T2 Dilithium Mine upgrade: 5K Fleet Marks and 1/3 of a million Dilithium, not to mention the sheer lunacy (and I mean the boredom and repetition) of nearly 600 Doffs!
We can just about cover that, and maybe the next one, but after that, there is just no way we are ever going to get any further.
So good-by Fleet, and good-by buying any new toys; and if you cant get new toys, there is a lot less point in playing the game at all.
If Cryptic does not do something to help the smaller fleets (and please dont say the Mine helps in any way) then we are not going to be the only ones walking away. Just look at the mismatch between entry level and elite PvP - "the few" now dominate "the many" so badly that "the many" just quit.
I would say that my fleet has all quit, however there arent enough left of us to quit and be even noticed. Why couldnt Cryptic have made this a game for everyone.
Post edited by humblesheep on
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Same with fleet size. If you're in a small fleet (or a large one with few active members), the costs of fleet projects are going to impact you harder. But there's less people to consume provisions generated, likely less in-fighting, and less worries about "Joe" or "Jane" ninja'ing your bank or provisions. Large fleet: More people to contribute, more people to aid individual projects, but less provisions/person as a rule, more chances at arguments, more worries about getting stolen from by new players to the fleet, etc etc.
So overall, if you're leaving because you made a bad choice, for what you wanted, no worries, have fun with whatever you do, but it's doubtful, as you're going to suffer constant disappointment. If you're really that sick of the costs, sell off your old fleet, to someone that might want it, and join up with a larger fleet, where you won't feel the burden of fleet project costs, quite so heavily.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
This. Unless you're dying for a high tier fleet ship, all you need is provisions.
I fully accept all your points, and it was our choice to be a small fleet,
however,
it was a bunch of execs at Cryptic who chose the figures for each project and upgrade; they chose to go with (pardon me murdering Orwell) "Big Fleets good - Small Fleets bad". Now they would have known how many fleets there were and what the average sise was, they chose to make it reasonable for large fleets, hard for medium fleets and impossible for small fleets. Now I dont know what the fleet numbers were, but my guess is that there were many more small fleets (who liked it that way - for whatever reason and this is supposed to be a game remember) than there are now.
It is some bloke in a suit, tie and red Ferrari who chose to (choose your expletive) up the small fleets!
As this is an game of entertainment (OK so it seems to be only a business to them), why do they spend so much time forcing us to do what we dont want to do:
E.g. how many people still did Nebula Rescue and Vault Ensnared after they discovered Romulan bunny hunting? - and what missions do we now have to do for Nukara points!
And.
When everything really just boils down the EC, Dil and Fleet Marks, why do we, as a global community, waist thousands of hours buying stupid amounts of things one at a time, opening them one at a time then putting them into projects one at a time, its just a daft waist of time - would anyone say that this gives them any sense of achievement? One of the last of my fleet mates tells me that his girlfriend calls this game "Shopping in Space" ? its hard to argue with her.
Now lastly, and feel free to call me dumb, but, very few of us had any real idea of the true cost of Starbases when we started - they kept that one real tight. Do I have a right to complain, not really. But is it worth pointing out some of the stupid stuff, well maybe, sometimes they do listen.
Thank you. I will take you up on that, just wish I had 5 fleet mates left.
well, no, that's not entirely accurate, They did it this way because if the numbers were any smaller, it would be far to easy for huge fleets to level up. Really, there is no way they could help small fleets without giving big fleets a huge advantage. Even if they say scaled the costs by fleet size, a huge fleet could just kick all its members to get a lower cost, then reinvite when they leveled up. It's a balancing act, right now it is as good for small fleets as it can get, without being too good for the big fleets.
As leader of an active fleet that took weeks to found and fights to this day to survive in a ruthlessly competitive fleet environment, I know perhaps more than anyone what you mean. I started with nothing more than a dream and the reality has more often than not been adverse. I deal with the issues you've faced every day, and I sympathize with yours and the plights of other fledgling fleets who have a dream, but little else.
The Truth as you've discovered: Fleet building is a very expensive proposition. Every morning, I log in and plan how the next projects are going to be paid for. And I wonder who else is going to pay for them because I only make a certain amount of ec daily and though it sounds like it could buy a Lamborghini, it's not nearly enough to get all daily reputation and fleet project costs covered without leaving me poorer at the end of the day than when I started.
Fleets are not designed to be a small time endeavor, but a cooperative between a large group of players. That's why there are only 2 ways to get a Tier 5 fleet: Buy a bankload of zen or gather as many players as you can. The biggest fleets are the ones that one way or other have managed to attract players to them. For the small unknown fleet, that is next to impossible. Players are against you because they usually want top equipment without having to work for it, fleets are against you because they're scrambling to grab as big a percentage of players to maintain their player base as possible, and the game itself is against you because you can't get up there without dishing out resources you don't have in the first place. that's a no-win scenario.
That said, Humblesheep, It's sad you were unable to obtain your fleet dream and your members left. But cheer up, I don't want you to think it's impossible, there's still a chance you can build the top tier fleet you imagine. I offer you a home in my longterm fleet and ask you to team with me. Reason: 2 like minds are better than one. I am building a fleet myself and have active members. Together, you wouldn't be alone anymore in making your fleet dream a reality. That would save you money in the long run and still see a T-5 fleet built. That's a win-win scenario which leaves everyone [Happy]3x in the end. I can guarantee you XTERN1TY will be active in years to come and I will be active with it. That's as reliable a goal as you can hope for in the end. Together we CAN get a T-5 done. What say you friend... or should I say, partner? *extends hand*
Right now, doing the fleet is the only thing that keeps me logging in every day, (doing 17 sets of doffs -for Fleet Marks), if I loose that, I will never doff again and just play once or twice a week doing an easy STF just for fun. No more reps, no more grind, - I am almost talking myself into it right now.
In a few days, if I start to feel better, I may consider finishing the SB at T3 and mine at T2, if not the last 2 guys can clear out all the provisions and the bank for a few million EC.
How true!
Ok, So if they picked lower numbers, you'd still have been mad, as "Big fleets" could meet those goals quicker (providing it was active, with a fair to good number of members donating), then a "Small Fleet"
So regardless of the numbers chosen, it's still your responsibility to accept the consequences of your choice. However, unlike some choices, it's hardly irreversible, as there are options. Some, I have already pointed out, a couple others, have pointed out others. Another option, that no one's pointed out, is associating yourself with another fleet. Some fleets, either because of hitting member caps, or just because a bunch of ppl like different things, yet they all like to be in comms together, or support each other, kind of break down into "sub-fleets". Other than Fleet ships, a fleet that has a higher tier access to a specific item, can always map invitte you over, you buy the item(s), and go on your merry way. Then, maybe if you have a higher tier something than your sister fleet does, you return the favour, as they need it. Each fleet maintains it's own provisions, BUT, you could have one fleet concentrating on 1-2 things, and the other concentrating on others at that same time.
All depends on what you want to do. If you're the leader, and you're really the last one active in that fleet, and you're just totally sick of it, and want to join another fleet, hell sell the fleet off. I usually hear people selling a fleet base quite often, and it seems there is a market for them, as I also hear people wanting to buy them. Just make sure you remove from the bank any EC and items you want to keep for yourself, so when the new owner comes in, you're not losing anything, because he took over, a little quicker than you might have expected.
Anyway, good luck.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
It is very tough once you get beyond tier 3 but the key for a small fleet is to focus on one area i personally think. Dilithium mines and embassy do give some useful perks but if you are trying to build a star base then they are a massive drain on resources as they spread small fleets very thin.
I know one fleet that had very few members but they focused solely on the shipyard and i think were the first to complete it at t5.
But what you have to bare in mind is that the system is specifically designed to accommodate 25 active members. It's not a case of the "suits" wanting to TRIBBLE over the little guys this was just the practical benchmark that they decided on.
Networking is also important, invites to fleet bases can be lucrative as long as you avoid those that charge for the privilege.
When they introduced fleet holdings in S6 they point blank stated small fleets would not be punished or hurt in any way. As we have seen time and time again small fleets have folded, collapsed, gone bankrupt or simply vanished in large numbers since the launch of S6 because they cannot afford to build a base nor keep it provisioned.
Small fleets were punished and hurt quite badly by this. I have one myself so know this first hand. S6 and fleet holdings were only set up to cater for large fleets ONLY and smaller fleets be damned...
***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
I know it's rough but my two man active Fleet went from T0 (at the launch of the Fleet holdings) to T3 (mid-January this year) on the Fed Starbase and T0 to T2 on the KDF side in the same time frame. It can be done if you work at it.
Now, getting past T3 (and T2 Embassy) would not be possible for that size of a fleet. However, we have since added new players (5 to be exact) to our group an we are on track to hit T4 in the Starbase shortly after the new year (20 more projects to T3 Embassy and 10 more to T2 mine).
I am not saying it is easy, but everyone in our group believes it's a journey to T5 and not the instant "get there for goodies". We also level all of the sub tiers at the same time. I honestly cant tell you how much Zen I have purchased and converted to make this happen, but my job is good and I have a bit more money than time.
All in all, it goes back to the old saying, "If there is a will; there is a way." I wish you the very best in finding a fleet that works for you (including getting your own to grow).
Matt
PS - My main has over 3 million FC and IF you are at T2 in each of the sub tiers, you can purchase common career specific DOFFs for 750 FC. I think the generic (random) common DOFFs open up at T1 starbase for the same 750 FC.
Find us at CovenantofHonor.com. My Twitter handle; @jmattmiracle
And while it sucks, because I want several Tier V Fleet ships, at the end of the day as someone else said here it's about the journey, not the destination. I play with my friend and we both contribute and we're always looking for new members and getting our other friends to play STO.
Allow people to donate STACKS of boxed common doffs.
Completely do away with embassy and dilithium mine provisions
And do this in the next update please
The people punishing small fleets is the community.
Everybody wants the new uber-gear and they want it now. Cryptic has no say in that mind-set. They can build content that doesn't require that uber-gear (and they have - I've yet to play anything that actually requires fleet grade equipment to complete) and encourage people not to give up, but in the end it was the community that decided to strangle small fleets because it was the people who made up the community that gravitated towards larger fleets at the expense of smaller ones.
You can argue all you want that Cryptic's not providing incentives to be in a small fleet - you're right about that, but they've not deliberately set out to hurt them. If anything they've tried again and again to help them, but nothing they've come up with that doesn't lend itself to an enormous amount of exploitation has really worked that well for small fleets.
Everything from fleet mark bonus pools to the conversion of DOFF requirements to all white/common quality DOFFs and more recently to the removal of the department split on doff requirements has been aimed, wholly or in part, at making the advancement system easier on small fleets.
Even the decision to not remove the ability for people to buy items not available from your own fleet's stores from another fleet's stores was likely predicated by this desire to help out small fleets. (There's a Dev that's on record as having said that the ability to buy from stores your own fleet hadn't unlocked when on the map of a fleet that had was not working as intended).
I'm gonna be real honest with you here (and yes, I'm talking down to you) - the size of the dil requirements? Those are balanced to encourage people in Cryptic's definition of a small fleet (25-30 active members) to buy zen and trade it for dilithium without discouraging them and making them feel as if they have to convert zen to dilithium.
That's not punishing anybody, that's just business.
You don't need fleet stuff. Its nice, its shiny, its a percent or two better, but it isn't world changing. If you can't afford the project, don't worry about it. This game ran 5 seasons without starbases just fine. Most important about a fleet is working with people you like playing with. A good crew is worth a heck of a lot more than an extra [acc] modifier, and if my choice was a fleet full of jackasses with all the toys in the world, and a fleet of genuinely good people that were broke, I'm signing up for poverty. And if you just want to work alone, there is plenty of high-end hardware available in the the rep system and as lockbox stuff on the Exchange. And if you really HAVE to have a T5 ship, there are groups that sell access for prices that, while not exactly cheap, are certainly cheaper than building a T5 base yourself.
Heck if you MUST have a starbase, T2 provides all the Advanced stuff which covers most 'requirements,' and you can take pride in the fact that your gear is truly YOURS. Enough with the complaining though that 5 people can't afford the high-end facilities though. Thats how the world tends to work, its a choice we all have to make, and its really old news.
I like your thinkin' mate. I want you in our fleet! Any chance you'd be interested in joining our fun loving group of long haul wheelers???
All projects usually get finished within 24-48 hours.
600 Doffs for T2 Mine? EASY
If youre in a small fleet you should have MILLIONS of fleet marks.. I bought 600 common fleet duty officer boxes the other day and filled mine up alone! A measly 300k fleet credits.. not to mention you get like 350 per doff donated.. ( approx ) so I spent all of 90k, out of my .. literally... 7,500,000 fleet credits.
Lol.
Your Javelin deals 125417 (89066) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Tholian Recluse. > lol
you can mail me.
If you want a fleet ship I can add you temp to the base and you can make a small dilithium donation just to cover the provision
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I agree, but that is not the reason we started.
Building the starbase was something to do to keep us playing because we were bored of everything else (OK, my top 2 toons with have a copy of everything shiny, but then I would be daft not to).
I am still annoyed with Cryptic, but more with the stupid requirements to buy tens of thousands of items (mostly) one at a time (and I dont care if it is 1000 people wasting a hour each, or one person wasting 1000 hours, it is still a ridiculous time waster).
The cost does exclude small fleets from getting very far (and if I had a clever solution to that I would have posted it long ago), that is a shame for all of us (and please dont bother to flame me just because your fleet is larger than mine), because apart from PvP we are all on the same side.
What I have notice, is that getting to this point, and posting about it, brings out the best (and sometimes not so best) in people, one guy (wish I'd noted down your name), e-mailed me 250 Replicators, to help us along. And thank you also to all who have offered access to SBs and mines, again, it encourages me and the others to keep going.
The "Geriatric Infantry" is open for business - anyone got any Fleet Marks they dont need?
I lead a fleet that goes between 5 and 25 players at any given time, and we are half way through T3.
Sure it aint always easy, but proper leadership and motivation gets you extremely far.
As fleet leader, your job is to make the grind fun.
////
Btw, there is no Season 8.
Dude, we have 3 and 2 are casual!
(think I should have said RIP Micro-Fleet)
OK, but first I have to convince myself!
Had not spotted that, but its a bit like Intel calling the 586 a Pentium (for those of us old enough to remember).
But seriously, since starting all of this I hardly ever actually play the game, everything I need comes from doff missions (and with 12 toons (with lots of purples) I do get FMs faster by doffing than by playing - btw we only play space missions as there are much better ground games out there).
95 percent of our fleet is entirly bankrolled by not actually playing - how dumb is that?
The latest State of the Game labels the next Season coming out this year to be Season 8.
I'm approaching 30m fleet credits, I know what it takes.
We have a T5 shipyard and are working on engineering (halfway), then science. The T5 base upgrade is waiting to be done, but 4,000,000 dilithium needs 160,000 from 25 people... good luck. Our embassy is finished, the Mine has all T2s finished. Our fleet has some extremely resourceful people in it, and 10 of those could do most of the projects until it comes to dilithium... that is our killer.
Small fleets that fail did so because of many reasons, the star base is just the easy one to blame. Some of the problem with MMOs, and STO is worse than others for this, is that anyone can make a fleet and be the boss.
Bad leaders bring down their fleets, organize yourself, your fleet and work together to become better.
Bad fleet project management is pretty common, and the people that queue those projects give no thought at all to how they will complete them hurts the fleet.
If you choose to be in a small fleet then you need to be more resourceful than a large fleet. Your leadership must communicate and prepare the members for whats to come, teach them to get what they don't have. Anything less and you aren't a leader, and a fleet without a leader isn't relevant.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
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