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Reverse Nerf

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  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It sure looks like you dont do the research. Reverse is much slower then going forward.

    And is that always the case, Or when your flying at max power to engines, vs min power to engines?


    ^ think about that, then tell me if its "much slower".
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    And is that always the case, Or when your flying at max power to engines, vs min power to engines?

    Have you ever tried going forward at full impulse and then going backward at full impulse and noticing what is at the very LEAST 50% difference in speed?
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • xtremenoob1xtremenoob1 Member Posts: 489 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    Actually Extreme, I do lots of research (which many dont know) I read posts, and i do ask questions, and they have had an effect, But like i said

    "To do pvp, you must learn how to break the system, like everyone else"

    the end result is me becoming the very thing i am fighting against

    An abuser of the weak, and ignorant

    To do PVP is to enjoy the game. Spending time finding out what works and doesn't isn't abusing...

    Anyway I'm done chatting with you...

    I'll just leave you this... Hide under the starbase... Poke your nose out after my APA/Other buffs are off and still die... ... Warp... Okay... Not sure your arguement but okay.

    http://i.imgur.com/zwArWCa.jpg

    Anyway, I am told I suck so what do I know.
    -X-/Pandas - Pheo
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Have you ever tried going forward at full impulse and then going backward at full impulse and noticing what is at the very LEAST 50% difference in speed?

    have you ever tried flying toward someone who had full reverse, when you had minimal power to engines?!
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Anyway, I am told I suck so what do I know.

    1 death, because i saw BoG and left, And i got stuck in the starbase, was not hiding there.
    I dont play games with the upper pvp teams in it, because with out them, pvp is actually
    simi-doable.

    Which only gives me more proof i am right
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    have you ever tried flying toward someone who had full reverse, when you had minimal power to engines?!

    No, because i like my tests to be fair, congratulations on invalidating your own argument
    uhmari wrote: »
    I dont play games with the upper pvp teams in it, because with out them, pvp is actually simi-doable.

    I don't run for my life, I do the honourable thing and fight them with everything my little ship has to offer and when I lose I ask them to teach me
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • xtremenoob1xtremenoob1 Member Posts: 489 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    1 death, because i saw BoG and left, And i got stuck in the starbase, was not hiding there.
    I dont play games with the upper pvp teams in it, because with out them, pvp is actually
    simi-doable.

    Which only gives me more proof i am right

    Lol, Banished doesn't have a upper PVP team. Wow, lolz. HAHAHA. Sry I had to reply for the lolz. They have good Puggers who can group and do good but in organized PVP they wouldn't be that good. BTW, all respect to them and I love teaming with them because they are good spirited players.

    haha

    EDIT

    That's not to say they couldn't be because again, good spirited players who want to have fun. Just FYI. And again, I enjoy immensely teaming with them because they just want to have fun.

    kkthxbai
    -X-/Pandas - Pheo
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    No, because i like my tests to be fair, congratulations on invalidating your own argument

    These reverse is merrited, as people should not beable to reverse faster then someone for example with full power to weapon/shields or shields/aux
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    These reverse is merrited, as people should not beable to reverse faster then someone for example with full power to weapon/shields or shields/aux

    They should if the second person has no engine power, its called giving something to get something, others call it balance.

    I get my cruiser to reverse faster than the escorts that sit behind me, it's called evasive manoeuvres + reverse, it works brilliantly leaving the escort pilot scratching their heads saying "Where'd that cruiser go?"
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • seansamurai1seansamurai1 Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Still fails to mention reverse drain and lower defensive value.
    I'll be honest though. In just over a year, I've not been overtaken in PvP by a ship going backwards.


    Startrekkin across the universe, boldly going forward because we can't find reverse!

    Funny though how the OP says he does ask questions and research, I've seen nothing on this forum other than his constant whining about tyranny and broken powers.
    If you put as much effort into actually learning how to play as you do putting pseudo-religious whines on the forum, you would actually be good at the game.
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    and maybe if we had less bullies in this game who are only interested
    in picking on new players, we wouldn't have such a low pvp population
  • seansamurai1seansamurai1 Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Funny that, I go into the queues not knowing who I'm up against, just like everyone else really.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    and maybe if we had less bullies in this game who are only interested
    in picking on new players, we wouldn't have such a low pvp population

    Go through, look at the posts from the people you are calling bullies. No doubt, some of them are - heck, I even said in one of these plethora of threads that it was one thing to call you on your complete and total lack of any knowledge in the game as if you have never logged into it even once...and...it is another for some of the personal attacks they have levied against you.

    Pointing out how completely ignorant you are of certain things, when do you such things as ask multiple times for things that are already in the game or ask for a change to how something works when it does not work the way you think it does in the least, is not a case of bullying in the least.

    People have shown a great deal of patience as they have gone to extreme measures to correct some of your totally baffling mistaken views on how certain mechanics work.

    That so many people have had to come together to cover the sheer number of things that you have been wrong about is not bullying - it is an example of how the community comes to the aid of their fellows - how the community wants to make sure everybody is as well informed as possible.

    Most people would offer at least the smallest of thank you's in response to all the effort that has been made to help you out...hrmmm.
  • seansamurai1seansamurai1 Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I also remember offering help in another thread for his 'numbers' by using multiple toons in different ships ranging from no rep gear all the way to my primary fully repped up and fleeted up Tac toon.
    Then within my knowledge a few pointers to improve.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I also remember offering help in another thread for his 'numbers' by using multiple toons in different ships ranging from no rep gear all the way to my primary fully repped up and fleeted up Tac toon.
    Then within my knowledge a few pointers to improve.

    Stop trying to help him, you mean ol' bully! :rolleyes:
  • seansamurai1seansamurai1 Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    My bad. :D
    My patience does wear thin though.
    I am also very much a person who says it as it is, it tends to get me into trouble on the forums. ;)
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    My bad. :D
    My patience does wear thin though.
    I am also very much a person who says it as it is, it tends to get me into trouble on the forums. ;)

    The way I'm looking at it, trying to keep positive, is that in everybody correcting everything that Uhmari says - they are actually putting together a good thread for newer players to read through and learn more about the game. There's some good info in all those threads from other folks replying to him.
  • seansamurai1seansamurai1 Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    There is that yes.
    There's been stuff touched on by others that I didn't know.
    Everyday is a learning day as they say.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    There is that yes.
    There's been stuff touched on by others that I didn't know.
    Everyday is a learning day as they say.

    Yep, if there's nothing left to learn - no room to grow - it's usually time to move on to something else.

    Even folks that have been at this since the start still have the opportunity to learn things as Cryptic continues to introduce more and more variables into the "soup" of stuff one can do. They might be able to fly their ship with their pinkytoe better than I ever will, but some new piece of gear/itemization will be added and there's the chance to play around with that...

    There are some things I know more about than perhaps the average player, but then again - there are so many things that so many folks know more about than me...it's nfity. There's room for growth.

    With so much diversity in the game, there's always different things to consider running as you come up against them. Have to figure that's help Cryptic sell more than a few extra BOFF slots...
  • seansamurai1seansamurai1 Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Teaching and helping others is also a sign of growth.
    Best way to further learn is to teach others.
    My fleet being a non PvP fleet always look to me for advice as I'm the PvPer.
    We've got some great PvE players but PvP doesn't massively interest them as it gets nothing for the star base and other fleet stuff.
    490 members and not one of them can beat me, they don't cry or whine, infact its now a bit of a running joke in the fleet. I see it as a challenge, if just one of those guys beats me, my job is done, they can then go more advanced and probably start teaching me then.

    I'll be totally honest, I was a little like the OP when I started, but the main difference is, I listened and watched, I had and have the pleasure of playing against and alongside some very good PvPers. I watch and I learn from ones better than me.

    There is always someone better than oneself, what separates the noob from the newb is the ability to listen, watch and learn.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I learn from ones better than me.

    I generally think of three sources for most of my knowledge:

    1) Dying.
    2) Reading the forums/OPvP.
    3) Not being afraid to be laughed at for trying things some might consider flaky. Something might work great for the majority of players, but that might not work for some - there are different playstyles and all that jazz.

    If not for better players killing me nor for them sharing information, all I'd have is the flaky stuff. I'm very grateful for those deaths and the information that's been shared.
  • seansamurai1seansamurai1 Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    When a good PvPer comments on something you have done right, its big pickmeup.
  • omegashinzonomegashinzon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    They should if the second person has no engine power, its called giving something to get something, others call it balance.

    I get my cruiser to reverse faster than the escorts that sit behind me, it's called evasive manoeuvres + reverse, it works brilliantly leaving the escort pilot scratching their heads saying "Where'd that cruiser go?"

    Lol-yup. That is good fun. One of my favorite level 40 stock ship builds (on no Rep/newly leveled toons) is the "speed-cruiser". EP2E3, evasive man doffs, 125 engine setting, etc. Many a frustrated escort has been left behind (or in front) saying "WTF?". Mostly a hit n run build but if you can get 2 escorts chasing you down to no avail, I strongly consider that a team tactic and useful role, even if you don't get the glory kills. I'm talking PvP OFC but even in Tholian PVEs it's useful to be fast.
    uhmari wrote: »
    reverse needs a nerf, when you can go full speed, and he can back up at full speed,
    there is a problem. Makes killing way to easy (skill less).

    Nerf reverse to 1/8th impulse.

    Ok, I think this is more of a misunderstanding than anything. I'm all for balance, but fact is, reverse is already worse than it should be. Let me point out a few things, some of which were briefly referred to by other posters. You really need to see the big picture here.

    #1 - Reverse is not "as fast" as forward. Not even close. Faster speeds can be achieved by Evasive Maneuvers, Emergency Power to Eng, or as stated by high engine power and the right engines. [any good reason these should not affect reverse as well?] HOWEVER it STILL won't be as effective as the forward equivalent. Which brings me to point #2...

    #2 - Why is reverse even slower in the first place? Ships are not cars, the impulse engines are not the same as thrusters. Besides, you still have inertia (very noticeable in game) to deal with. If it's not cannon, that explains it but it really provides no tactical advantage therefore irrelevant anyhow because of #3...

    #3 - And this is a doozy. I didn't even realize this until waaay late in the game when I wondered why sometimes reversing was very useful and other times the contrary. It has to do with the loss in power levels. Once again, this is a borderline secret as I've NEVER seen an in game mention of this, be it in tooltips, item descriptions, tutorials, etc. I doubt if 50% of players know this. Here's the deal and you may already know this. After about 5 seconds, all your power levels (minus engines I think) start to drop. FAST and DRAMATICALLY. I've noticed at least 30%. That means if the U.S.S. Excort_A backs up to fire on you, he only has 5 seconds to do anything before his weapon power (and shields) start going kaput. Useful for turning and targeting, but it makes actual speed nearly irrelevant. Now if he wants to waste his evasive going reverse, it wasn't free, he now has one less getaway card during CD. If he's running 125 engine power to gain the speeds you mention, well guess what? Either his weapons or more likely shields are lacking because of. So after 5 seconds of reversing (if that's the scenario you dread), he becomes a sitting duck. Could easily be at 15-20 shield power after 10 seconds if hes just speed reversing.

    - So you see, reverse if by far not OP. Slightly more useful for an escort yes, but in a very limited manner already. And as above poster that I replied to mentioned, has its tactics for sci and eng ships too. (They most always have reasons to face opponents as well.) If you see escorts zooming in reverse, it almost certainly comes at a cost. If not, then they are already at an unfair advantage due to some special setup and reverse is not the issue, something else they are doing is.

    - You know I'm not one to blanket disagree with you, but I think you're way off this time. Just sayin. If you still disagree, it's cool. Just wanted to point those things out. For that matter, nerfing to 1/8 impulse wouldn't even phase me. That's how little I see it mattering. I'm guessing even at 1/8, an evasive or emergency power to would boost it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
    So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
  • mewmaster101mewmaster101 Member Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited July 2013

    #3 - And this is a doozy. I didn't even realize this until waaay late in the game when I wondered why sometimes reversing was very useful and other times the contrary. It has to do with the loss in power levels. Once again, this is a borderline secret as I've NEVER seen an in game mention of this, be it in tooltips, item descriptions, tutorials, etc. I doubt if 50% of players know this. Here's the deal and you may already know this. After about 5 seconds, all your power levels (minus engines I think) start to drop. FAST and DRAMATICALLY. I've noticed at least 30%. That means if the U.S.S. Excort_A backs up to fire on you, he only has 5 seconds to do anything before his weapon power (and shields) start going kaput. Useful for turning and targeting, but it makes actual speed nearly irrelevant. Now if he wants to waste his evasive going reverse, it wasn't free, he now has one less getaway card during CD. If he's running 125 engine power to gain the speeds you mention, well guess what? Either his weapons or more likely shields are lacking because of. So after 5 seconds of reversing (if that's the scenario you dread), he becomes a sitting duck. Could easily be at 15-20 shield power after 10 seconds if hes just speed reversing.]

    actually it is stated quite often in PVP guides, it is not a "secret" just not stated in game like a lot of stuff is


    Also, that red color gives me a headache trying to read it.
  • mandoknight89mandoknight89 Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    - Why is reverse even slower in the first place? Ships are not cars, the impulse engines are not the same as thrusters. Besides, you still have inertia (very noticeable in game) to deal with. If it's not cannon, that explains it but it really provides no tactical advantage therefore irrelevant anyhow because of #3...

    You're right. Ships aren't cars. Cars can use the same engine to go forwards and reverse thanks to the transmission. Starships have large impulse engines that provide thrust in only one direction (forwards) and rely on RCS and auxiliary thrust systems if they want to reverse.
  • omegashinzonomegashinzon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    You're right. Ships aren't cars. Cars can use the same engine to go forwards and reverse thanks to the transmission. Starships have large impulse engines that provide thrust in only one direction (forwards) and rely on RCS and auxiliary thrust systems if they want to reverse.

    As a car is only limited in reverse speed it's lack of reverse gears, this would mean impulse is somehow mechanical in nature and not field generated. A stated non-fact. Secondly, there seems to be debate whether impulse works or not in reverse but let's just say your right and it doesn't. Should that not mean the EP2E or even evasive mans should not affect it??? Thrusters are not impulse by your definition so something is majorly wrong here. Also, if impulse has no reverse effect, WHAT SLOWS/STOPS A SHIP? These are not submarines nor is there even air resistance in space so thrusters alone stop momentum??? If so, they seem to be equally as powerful for deceleration therefore should go faster in reverse? This is mind numbing.
    actually it is stated quite often in PVP guides, it is not a "secret" just not stated in game like a lot of stuff is

    How is something not mentioned in the game not a secret??? What if MK I phaser arrays gave a 100% boost to inertial dampeners but it was not mentioned in game yet Bob@capatianSTO made a guide for MK I gear that mentioned it somewhere on the net? Not a secret either? LOL

    Secret: "explanation not immediately or generally apparent"
    As in, I can reverse indefinitely without ill effect because my engines don't mention a penalty. Explaination, No you can't because....not generally apparent.
    i.e. A secret. (to most. I even said 50% or less probably know about it.)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
    So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
  • mewmaster101mewmaster101 Member Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    As a car is only limited in reverse speed it's lack of reverse gears, this would mean impulse is somehow mechanical in nature and not field generated. A stated non-fact. Secondly, there seems to be debate whether impulse works or not in reverse but let's just say your right and it doesn't. Should that not mean the EP2E or even evasive mans should not affect it??? Thrusters are not impulse by your definition so something is majorly wrong here. Also, if impulse has no reverse effect, WHAT SLOWS/STOPS A SHIP? These are not submarines nor is there even air resistance in space so thrusters alone stop momentum??? If so, they seem to be equally as powerful for deceleration therefore should go faster in reverse? This is mind numbing.



    How is something not mentioned in the game not a secret??? What if MK I phaser arrays gave a 100% boost to inertial dampeners but it was not mentioned in game yet Bob@capatianSTO made a guide for MK I gear that mentioned it somewhere on the net? Not a secret either? LOL

    not if was still common knowledge, no. ask any PVPer or Vet PVEer about reversing and they will probably tell you about it decreasing.

    also, the game does actually state it, once it starts draining power it will mention it in the chatbox that power is being drained from going in reverse
  • omegashinzonomegashinzon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    not if was still common knowledge, no. ask any PVPer or Vet PVEer about reversing and they will probably tell you about it decreasing.

    also, the game does actually state it, once it starts draining power it will mention it in the chatbox that power is being drained from going in reverse

    righto

    Never the less, it seemed appropriate to mention to OP, as it rather negates any "extended reverse maneuvering" as being tactically sound unless you like to use batteries and doffs for them. The short burst of reverse speed is something, but hardly worth nerfing with so many other things going on.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
    So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
  • mandoknight89mandoknight89 Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    As a car is only limited in reverse speed it's lack of reverse gears, this would mean impulse is somehow mechanical in nature and not field generated. A stated non-fact. Secondly, there seems to be debate whether impulse works or not in reverse but let's just say your right and it doesn't. Should that not mean the EP2E or even evasive mans should not affect it??? Thrusters are not impulse by your definition so something is majorly wrong here. Also, if impulse has no reverse effect, WHAT SLOWS/STOPS A SHIP? These are not submarines nor is there even air resistance in space so thrusters alone stop momentum??? If so, they seem to be equally as powerful for deceleration therefore should go faster in reverse? This is mind numbing.

    Impulse engines are, by all evidence, some kind of high-powered fusion rocket, noted by those large, bright exhaust nozzles facing toward the rear of basically every ship in the game (a few, like the Nebula, oddly don't have visible main impulse drives). The RCS and auxiliary thrusters used for most maneuvering operations presumably function by the same principles, but not at the same scale, as the RCS thrusters are not large, glowing engines like the main impulse drives.

    As for the gradual deceleration without thrust... that's just convention. There's no reason for it other than that people have come to expect space to behave like an ocean. Even so, as far as I've noticed, when not in a mode that makes speed changes nearly immediate (such as Evasive Maneuvers or Full Impulse), coasting to a stop takes longer than accelerating to full speed.
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I love it when people play the realistic button in video games.


    Since we are being realistic lets


    - Make ships go difference speeds, because obviously not alls hips go 9.97 / warp 10.
    - Lets make the ships sizes vs the sold systems proper scale
    - lets make people eat
    - lets put billions on all the planets
    - gives the proper ships to the correct races
    - refuel ships
    - list go's on.
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