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Please Buff Torpedo Damage Vs Shields
freedumb4eva
Member Posts: 269
My ship is utilizing the Ferenghi console, 5x purple mk XII quantum torpedo consoles, and the 2 pc Adapted MACO set bonus.
My torps are listed to be doing ~8300 damage.
I fire them against shields and do about 300 damage.
That means my torpedoes are doing ~3-4% of their total damage.
wtf?
I belive that the logic is that torpedoes should be best vs hull and energy weapons are better vs shields.
But, wait, cannons are energy based weapons that are the king of dropping shields and taking out hull. Buffed cannon damage puts torpedoes to shame by several orders of magnitude.
Why does my very slow firing weapon get out damaged by a very fast spamming weapon? The logic is broken and thus so are the mechanics for torpedo damage.
My torps are listed to be doing ~8300 damage.
I fire them against shields and do about 300 damage.
That means my torpedoes are doing ~3-4% of their total damage.
wtf?
I belive that the logic is that torpedoes should be best vs hull and energy weapons are better vs shields.
But, wait, cannons are energy based weapons that are the king of dropping shields and taking out hull. Buffed cannon damage puts torpedoes to shame by several orders of magnitude.
Why does my very slow firing weapon get out damaged by a very fast spamming weapon? The logic is broken and thus so are the mechanics for torpedo damage.
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Does any one think that this is fair?
Or switch to transphasics for the shield pass through.
Fair? Absolutely. Torpedoes are shot for shot one of (if not the most) powerful weapons available in-game. A carefully built torpedo boat can potentially put out 6 figure plus hits every second. The only thing keeping that kind of destructive power from overwhelming everything is the kinetic shield absorption.
Could that ratio stand to be tweaked a smidge? Perhaps. Does it need to be on-par with the NPC torpedo shield killing? Not a chance. Players don't need to be able to do the invisi-torp of doom routine.
You beat me to the explanation, thank you.
I did not make up the 300 damage number, I witnessed it. So, given the 300 damage number, now do your math, virusdancer. Not much damage, is it? Especially considering the fact that I have very possible Torpedo buff that there is that I can think of, the damage is ridiculously low.
With every buff that I have available as a tac captain + my console damage buffs, there is no way that my quantum torpedoes are going to do 6 digit numbers consistently as you have asserted. I don't think that I can hit 6 digits with quantums, perhaps with blowing GDF.
With Trico it is possible.
IMO you made up this 6 digit damage every second scenario, whereas my experience and observation lends me to believe that torpedo damage needs to be un-nerfed.
I also didn't mention the fact that often my torpedoes just miss, which makes this slow firing weapon system even less attractive, though it is my favorite.
This weapon system, imo, also requires 3x DOFF slots in order to work properly. That is a pretty big commitment for such little payoff.
Is there a source for that?
Because like I posted, even if you take off that 75% initially for the kinetic resist and then apply the shield cap to the remaining damage...you're still not going to get the OP's numbers.
That's with a 3-step process:
1) Remove bleedthrough.
2) Apply shield kinetic reduction/absorption.
3) Apply shield damage reduction.
8300 - 830 = 7470
7470 * 0.25 = 1867.5
1867.5 * X = 300
X = 83.9%
So something with a cap of 75% would have to be applying 83.9% additional damage reduction after the 75% initial kinetic reduction.
To get to the 96% damage reduction the OP was seeing with a 2-step process, shields would have to have an additional 128% damage reduction against kinetic after the 75% against kinetic. (1.28 * 0.75 to get 0.96).
I'm wondering how hard those torps are hitting against non-cappped shield folks.
Whether the issue is actually originating when they hit or if the problem is when they're launched...as in, they're not actually doing the damage they're supposed to be doing - so the damage against the buffed target is far smaller than one would expect.
When it comes to torps, I don't run Quants. I run Trans and Plasma. Even with the Plasma which are going to have reduced damage because of the addition of the DoT damage, I haven't seen numbers that low. Yeah, they're crappy numbers...but nothing like that.
In PvE it's not so bad, but against buffed shields, yes I was doing 300-500 damage per torp. I saw it with my own eyes...
I only use quantums and I don't expect them to be one shot kills by any means, but seriously, the damage that they do against shields is pitiful. If this were real life, no one would produce quantum torpedoes, they would not even have been considered a viable weapon system.
With all of my buffs running I can break 1k damage to shields per torp.... How much do cannons do again? Then, after the cannons break shields, they do how much to hull? Does hull get an automatic 75% resistance to energy damage? Hmm... not balanced there according to my perceived logic of the gameplay mechanics, (torps vs hull and energy vs shields.)
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7730751&postcount=487
you can see it for your self with this. use it on npcs, and you will see their shield res based of a shield energy level of 50. the npcs will have at least 75% knetic res.
ive seen it display kinetic shield res in the 90s, on ships with 65-75% res on all the energy levels. with how shield res works, all the sources of res multiply against each other, and for kinetic, you always have .75 to multiply against too.
God hates torp lovers?
I dont see the issue.
R.I.P
Actually, that's what the deflector dish does. Ships don't waste power on shields just to travel through space.
@DevolvedOne
Yes, I thought so too, but then what of the gameplay balance vs cannons? If torps are supposed to be best vs hull, and cannons are supposed to be best vs shields and torpedoes are extremely weak vs shields and cannons are as good or better than torpedoes vs hull... => Torpedoes are then obviously inferior since cannons are better at taking down targets all together.
This, along with wanting to min/max, are the reasons that many players go for full cannon builds. A full Torpedo build is not nearly as viable, why is that?
When a weapon system begins with an inherent 75% reduction in damage, it becomes quite unattractive.
Perhaps there are some suggestions to improve torpedoes...
Decrease the initial damage reduction that shields provide.
Remove the damage reduction provided by shields and decrease overall torpedo damage to an acceptable level.
Increase the rate of fire of torpedoes.
IDK, it's my opinion that they could be buffed vs shields.
Torpedoes do excellent damage to bare hull after the shields have been lowered by energy weapon attacks imo.
The only correction that should be made is that shields should protect against torpedoes based on thier strength at the time of the attack.
A sliver of shields barely in place should not offer full resistance to an attack.
On a side not I was under the impression that combat shields where a spinoff of the deflector technologiy that protects a ship while in space from high velocity impacts.
R.I.P
Memory Alpha states they are one and the same.
R.I.P
The problem is the high investment skill tree wise its not viable in PvP IMO unless you run a full hit'n run boat.
That is an interseting suggestion.
Then how does the first Enterprise (from the show Star Trek: Enterprise) fly at warp without a shield? If it was one-in-the-same you'd think they would use it for defensive purposes as well, but the only defense they had at the time was polarize hull.
@DevolvedOne
Because the NX-class has a navigational deflector. You don't need both, you need one or the other.
I would think because the technology at the time was good enough for travel bit not combat.
Memory alpha though states the shields is the slang for deflector shields and such is used in combat as well as protection when traveling.
This aspect of the technology is why I never thought the idea of shields being defense against torps as wrong.
Still dont. As such shielding is designed to mitigate high kinetic impact as well as other energy types.
I do dislike that shield strength is not a part of the equation though.
R.I.P
simply because im RPing, or feel torps should be used on principle, for quite a wile i have been using 3 cannon 1 torp builds and have gotten quite a few great kills. but theres just no comparison to the effectiveness you get from BO instead. BO has synergy with your energy weapon tac consoles, torps dont. you have to choose between knetic or energy damage consoles, you need that energy damage to even get you exposed hull. not to mention the extra skill points on the skill tree you need to distribute. its inappropriate to have so many down sides, AND that built in 75% res.
in a game full of proc heals, regeneration, TT, and manual shield distribution, it's a miracle if a torp hits hull. the dynamic of them only really hurting hull does not work in a game were there is so many ways to fix a shield hole. and its not something BO has to deal with, its not like hull has a base 75% res to energy damage.
just remove the built in 75%, shields will still have the same knetic resist levels they have for energy weapons. cruisers could, instead of running 8 beam arrays in an attempt to deal damage, run a 'stock' setup, and spam photon torpedoes instead for more effective damage. a HY of torps should be a scare thing, as scary as a BO, no mater the situation. torps are stranded canon equipment, its shocking they made them so undesirable in a star trek game.
These are the raw numbers...
The torp ferreted out was an Omega Torp. The following are the tooltip numbers for it:
Base - 2473.8
/w TT1 - 2521.6
/w APO1 - 2721.2
/w TT1 & APO1 - 2773.7
Okay then...so looking at the raw numbers up there, we'd expect to see X (Y) as the numbers, right? When looking at the combatlog in game, k?
So let's look at some percentages, eh?
Shield X vs. Shield Y, shows a damage reduction of 45-77.5%. There was a single hit at 87.3% and a single hit at 84.1%. 5 of the 28 were above 75%.
Kinetic X vs. Kinetic Y, shows a damage reduction of 91.1-97.6%.
Shield Y vs. Kinetic Y, shows a damage reduction of 25-64.9%.
Shield X vs. Kinetic Y, shows a damage reduction of 79.8-87.5%. Matching those hits from above, there was a single 93.4% and 88.7%.
Kinetic Y is variable.
The numbers from the tooltip are not reflected.
The numbers from the tooltip are not reflected * 0.9 either.
Although Kinetic Y is variable (as is Shield Y), the ratio between them is consistent enough to be able to identify the targets.
The same goes for the various ratios in general.
If the Shield Damage is equal to Tooltip Damage * 0.9 * 0.25 * 0.25 ("capped shield"), then the expected damage reduction would be ~94.4%.
For a hit of ~300 then, the Tooltip Damage would have been ~5300 and not ~8300. ~8300 would have resulted in a hit of ~467 or so. Still low and almost nitpicking, but hey - if we're going to argue with the devs, let's try to give them good numbers, eh?
A low number when you consider that a bleedthrough Hull hit would be Tooltip Damage * 0.1 * 0.25 ("capped hull") for 207.5 or 103.8 vs. Resilient.
A naked Hull hit would be Tooltip Damage * 0.25 ("capped hull") for 2075 damage.
Quants are 10s, right? So yeah - divide all those numbers by 10 to get their DPS. Painful, eh?
I think what's missing here is the effect of shield percentage - kind of what we see in the shows/movies, eh? Full shields, the torp rocks the boat - half shields, folks are dying and stuff's blowing up.
Perhaps the 75% deflection/absorption/dispersal aspect should scale with the percentage of shields. @50% shields, it would only be 37.5% instead of 75%. Not a case of changing the damage reduction aspect, but the 75% deflection/absorption/dispersal aspect of it...eh?
That ~8300 hit would do 1167.2 damage instead of 466.9 or so in that given situation...@50% shields. 871@75%...1517@25%. That sort of thing.
Starfleet Command 3, for instance, followed that principle. There was a catch, however. Every torpedo launcher was a much higher power hog than, say, disruptors, phasers, etc.
I think STO can follow that same principle with Torpedoes being a potent weapon in any situation. The question comes down to how much power the game should designate that these weapons take up when they fire.
Energy weapons will be able to apply constant fire. Torpedoes don't.
Another possible offset for making torpedoes viable in any situation is increasing alot their base reload times. If you want higher ROF, you need to dedicate the DOFFs to it. BOFF abilities should not reduce the cooldowns (like Tactical Initiative, a captain ability, or the BOFF skill Photonic Officer), just as they cannot do with Captain abilities.
Just some random ideas.
I personally would like to see torpedoes in STO live up to their standing in the IP. They were the heavy weapons of any situation in Star Trek. Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and any warship captain oftenly began an engagement with torpedo strikes, and they did not keep them back just because enemy shields were up.
except that its now virtually impossible to "knock the shields down" due to reputation passives and so many shield heals.
even in my dedicated shield stripper build that ONLY focused on stripping shields... id completely remove their shields for only a couple of seconds before a small sliver would be back to stop the torps. even if i fired my torps before i removed the shields there would always be a little bit back to save them.
Do you even Science Bro?