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The Elachi are ridiculus!

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  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The Elachi themselves aren't hard to fight. The issue with defending New Romulus is that you're massively outnumbered, most of your allies aren't flagged to repair, and several that are stop repairing when the mission progresses. It'd be easy to fix, flag friendly ships as straight up immortal, like your allies in the Tau Dewa patrols, so they never die and never go through a repair cycle. They'll take forever to win the battle on their own, but as long as they're alive the battle is manageable just by soaking up incoming fire.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    szerontzur wrote: »
    Oh yeah, it's mostly during Turnabout where you're trying to stop the ship from self-destruction and you get about 8~ of them spawning around you in a circle in the hallway(presumably dropping from the hatches in the ceiling - actually had one get stuck up there). You've only got maybe 2 seconds to react before they all leap at you and leave ya twiddling your thumbs. If you're 'unlucky', you'll get a second one jumping on right after the first one explodes, repeating the cycle of helplessness.



    As for their weapons, I believe they're a type of plasma-disruptor.. although I really want to get my hands on those crescent-shaped cannons.
    After the first encounter with face-huggers, I discovered that if I moved through the hallways slowly enough I could trigger the spawn without being inside their engagement range. Which gave me more than enough time to blast them.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    just a reminder.... when the game was released it attracted more Star Trek fans who were not gamers or may have been used to archaic games like EQ.

    This people were so - well ill just say it - dumb, that they adjusted the overall difficultly.

    What is the "Normal" setting now, is actually the VERY easy mode they created for these people. About a week before release they renamed the difficulty levels. Easy became normal, Normal advanced and hard elite.

    If you arent playing on Advanced you are actually playing on the setting designed for your grandma. Advanced is actually how the game was designed to be played.

    Just a reminder to those giving out reminders ... when the game was released, it did not have a difficulty slider. So hard and elite did not EXIST.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • umaekoumaeko Member Posts: 748 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Snoggy, Chenchuan actually has a point there - you're just filling holes in a nitpicky fashion :)

    In Open Beta, the difficulty was toned down AND we didn't have difficulty sliders then as well. When they were added, we don't quite know for sure if Advanced did end up being equal to the pre-Open Beta tone down of the difficulty... but it's probably the closest.

    Some critter group may kind of bend the difficulty curve. In increasing order... Breen, Tholian and Elachi likely end up being significantly trickier opponents to face. Also note, though, that most of them came up later in the life of the game, and were expected to face max-level players too.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    umaeko wrote: »
    Snoggy, Chenchuan actually has a point there - you're just filling holes in a nitpicky fashion :)

    In Open Beta, the difficulty was toned down AND we didn't have difficulty sliders then as well. When they were added, we don't quite know for sure if Advanced did end up being equal to the pre-Open Beta tone down of the difficulty... but it's probably the closest.

    Some critter group may kind of bend the difficulty curve. In increasing order... Breen, Tholian and Elachi likely end up being significantly trickier opponents to face. Also note, though, that most of them came up later in the life of the game, and were expected to face max-level players too.
    It's worth noting that Elachi aren't more difficult than those, and are not often encountered before level 30. They have different tactics, but they aren't harder. Crescent Bolt and Stasis Turrets are a major PITA until you figure out their weaknesses...

    Crescent Bolt turrets are like mortars in that you can see it comingand move out of the way, the only real difference is that it's an arc and not a circle. Stasis Turrets have a green circle around them, if you step in the circle you get temporarily immobilized. Also... they seem to be able to pull people towards them sometimes.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • maxvitormaxvitor Member Posts: 2,213 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    What makes them hard is the number you have to deal with, spawn levels are way too high. I don't really care about dying, it's not like my insurance company wants to raise my rates, but I do care when frame rate tanks and the sound starts getting goofy because there is just way too much going on on screen, I would be fine with decreasing their number while raising their difficulty to keep the challenge but lose the video overload.
    If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
    Oh Hell NO to ARC
  • kaevwrynnkaevwrynn Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Personally, I didn't find Last Stand to be so bad beyond the tedious nature of blasting through three waves of Elachi at the end (the 'upgraded' escort ships were especially annoying), but I was in my mogai for that trip... haven't actually used my d'deridex for a mission yet.

    The shuttle mission, though? TRIBBLE that. I was flying the runabout and it was still ridiculous. Admittedly, I've gotten used to having better (but not pay) gear on my main characters' shuttles, and the singularity charge was distracting, since it filled at an abnormal rate... but the sheer number of those, ah, 'oschu' shuttles were ridiculous. Lost those fighter wings every few seconds in the latter half of that sortie, and then I'd get shot to pieces with those stupid crescent waves.

    Lastly, the Elachi seem to do Disruptor damage, since I got the final Disruptor 'received' accolade while flying over the Rhi colony before taking my runabout down into the atmosphere.
  • sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The Runabout Rocks
    I flew that air to air mission in it (mines called "Dagger" ) with bog standard weapons and an upgraded core only
    It wasn't easy but its possible

    the Big fight I suspect would have been easier in the Runabout than the Big D
    Live long and Prosper
  • domvinadomvina Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    maxvitor wrote: »
    but I do care when frame rate tanks and the sound starts getting goofy because there is just way too much going on on screen

    Is that why my sound died halfway through? I was wondering why all the sound effects suddenly cut off.

    I'm shocked. I'm running a pretty high end rig and can easily play the rest of the game with every setting completely maxed without issue.
  • ulyssessolo16ulyssessolo16 Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I'm surprised people are having such a hard time with the last space battle, I haven't encountered the difficulties that have been reported. I can say that I took my time and got the majority of my weapons from last stand, so I had mostly caustic plasma weapons and man do they punch the elachi.

    However I agree that the friendlies need to be upgraded some so that they can survive. because the three times I played the last mission in vengeance arc, most of them were dead by the end and frankly is sad.

    The only mission I had a real hard time with was the atmo shuttle mission, that mission was just outright insane.
  • theantisainttheantisaint Member Posts: 170 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I'm surprised people are having such a hard time with the last space battle, I haven't encountered the difficulties that have been reported. I can say that I took my time and got the majority of my weapons from last stand, so I had mostly caustic plasma weapons and man do they punch the elachi.

    However I agree that the friendlies need to be upgraded some so that they can survive. because the three times I played the last mission in vengeance arc, most of them were dead by the end and frankly is sad.

    The only mission I had a real hard time with was the atmo shuttle mission, that mission was just outright insane.

    The shuttle mission was a breeze for me, it's the last space battle that gave me fits. Granted I do not have the plasma weapons which could have contributed to my many, many, many decaffeinations. Maybe it's just as simple as me being terrible with the Big Bird...the D'D is a pretty slow piglet.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The shuttle mission was a breeze for me, it's the last space battle that gave me fits. Granted I do not have the plasma weapons which could have contributed to my many, many, many decaffeinations. Maybe it's just as simple as me being terrible with the Big Bird...the D'D is a pretty slow piglet.
    What build? I was playing a dragon build. That worked well.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • cworth1cworth1 Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    umaeko wrote: »
    When I first experienced the mission, my character was already level 50, and I was using a T'varo Retrofit. The two initial waves were pretty well balanced, and generally enjoyable to go through. The final wave was, in contast, such a huge ramping up in difficulty that it became a process of dying and slowly thin out enemy numbers until I managed to compete.

    People are worried whiners will get something 'good' toned down. Well, I'm not a whiner - I'm a tester whom is commenting on the difficulty level. I'm one of those guys whom trudge through the initial STFs and found ways to beat them. I was one of those guys whom was annoyed when they toned down the difficulty of the space enemies during STO's open beta.

    From that standpoint, I'll just lend my voice to those saying that last wave goes too far. It does. It also gets old to get swatted aside like a fly repeatedly. Challenge is nice, but it shouldn't go so far as sour the fun of it either.

    Personally, I'd want the number of enemies to remain the same. The key, I beleive, is to improve the NPC support the player has.

    First of all, I'd increase it, and have some named Romulan Republic ships joining the fray be 'unkillable' as well - using vessels such as the Ha'apax-class R.R.W. Deihu and others can be nice for continuity (and also justify why there's still a flotilla afterwards - because apparently that's what's defending New Romulus).

    Second, I'd suggest changing the unkillable mechanic from 'repairing once disabled' to 'the eternal 1 hitpoint'.That way, the allied ships remain enemy targets.

    The point of this is giving the player proper support so that he not end up under an overwhelming amount of enemy pressure while maintaining the epic feel of being part of a climatic pitched battle for the new Romulan homeworld. Player death should still be possible, but it'd be better to elicit an "Oops" reaction from the player whom got too careless rather than a "Grr, again?!" to one whom is trying to do his best and not finding he can really compete.

    I Agree..

    And this would not be the first time Cryptic has made an encounter just a tad to much in terms of difficulty and needed it toned down.

    Example being the mission Stop The Signal...The first missions were decent, however the final Tethys Dreadnaught fight at one point was tuned to be way to difficult to complete when the free to play beta was going on Tribble. The dreadnaught would wipe out the AI ships leaving you to face this ship and what was endless waves of Frigates getting spawned and every one of them aiming for you in made the mission all but impossible to finish.

    Cryptic did admit it was tuned to be a bit to difficult and toned it down.

    Remember everyone that Tribble is a test server.The same may be true here with a mission that may be tuned a bit to high or have a broken mechanic in it and may need to be toned down a bit or fixed
  • otowiotowi Member Posts: 600 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The last space mission has me stumped. I have as some one stated only weapons gained from leveling up pluss some I got from Romulus Command. Yes they are common plasma beam arrays, but that should not matter, as I have done ESTF's with only common Mk something weapons. Other than that I use the shields and other stuff from leveling up. The DD is a very capable ship, thou my setup might be a bit sub par then what it might have been on Holo.

    The first two waves went by comparatively easy, but the last wave is such a big leap in difficulty that I'm starting to wonder if it's actually tuned for advanced level difficulty, but I could be wrong.

    There are simply too many enemy Elachi ships, and that big ol dreadnought. The dreadnought is neigh on impossible to kill. I have tried different setups, different BO's but nothing seems to help much.

    The shields of the dreadnought has very high resists, and the HP of the bloody thing is insane.

    As I said in the official Vengeance feedback thread, it feels like I'm fighting Donatra's SCIMITAR from KASE solo...

    Something is a bit off with the entire encounter, especially with the FED/KDF re-inforcements. Those ships only seems to want to repair themselves in a never ending loop.

    I would love to see the Enterprise F, as that ship is better than the re-inforcement combined.. Ok maybe not exactly, but still...
  • crappyturbocrappyturbo Member Posts: 201 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Nice idea about the Enterprise / Bortasqu' showing up or leading the reinforcements IMHO that is what the Federation at least would do.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    umaeko wrote: »
    Snoggy, Chenchuan actually has a point there - you're just filling holes in a nitpicky fashion :)

    In Open Beta, the difficulty was toned down AND we didn't have difficulty sliders then as well. When they were added, we don't quite know for sure if Advanced did end up being equal to the pre-Open Beta tone down of the difficulty... but it's probably the closest.

    I'm going to have to stick to my guns here. Yeah, they toned things down in the beta. But much of that was called for. There were some problems with their mechanics back then in the beta, and the tinkering was needed. Did they go overboard? Well that's a different topic. And one that should stay buried in the past when it was actually relevant. There's no going back to beta. But ...

    What he's saying about what happened then is complete misinformation. There was no Advanced. Or Elite. So the story he's telling isn't how it happened. The Difficulty slider and those settings came well after launch. And created a whole mess of problems with the game all by themselves (like how they broke exploration maps).

    That's not nitpicking.

    That'd be like me saying something akin to:

    When they released the Galaxy X, it broke the C-Store! (Not possible since the Galaxy X was first released as a recruit your friend reward and was added to the C-Store later).

    Or

    When the game launched Mk XII weapons had their drop rates nerfed! (Not possible since Mk XII didn't exist at launch).

    Or

    Particle Traces were too easy to obtain when the game launched! (Not possible since they didn't exist and crafting didn't require them at all).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I used a Dragon build when I did it. My general strategy was to distract the Elachi from firing on my allies by shooting them in the face with FaW, while simultaneously amping my weapon/shield power to insane levels. It worked reasonably well. Oh and I used Eject Warp plasma.

    And yes, my gear was only what I got from vendors, random drops, and mission rewards.

    I might not have even had all of my console slots filled......
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • peter1z9peter1z9 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The only thing they have to do to fix this mission is to have the named reinforcements bring some generic friends with them. The point of the first two waves should be you and the Romulans holding out until your reinforcements arrive.

    When the reinforcements do arrive, all you get are a few named hero ships. There are so many Elachi in the last wave that your hero unit reinforcements are all stuck repairing...causing them to be nothing but a minor distraction. The third wave should give you enough reinforcements to do the job since you theoretically bought yourself enough time in the first two waves for the reinforcements to arrive.
    "Our Bugs are working as intended" - Cryptic
  • umaekoumaeko Member Posts: 748 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Nice idea about the Enterprise / Bortasqu' showing up or leading the reinforcements IMHO that is what the Federation at least would do.

    I'd avoid that. >_>

    Chronologically, the Revenge arc is behind "The 2800". Shon's Belfast isn't destroyed yet - the Belfast is actually part of the Federation reinforcements - and he hasn't been given the command of the Enterprise-F yet.

    The mission where the Enterprise-F makes her first appearance is later in the Romulan mission progression.
    That's not nitpicking.

    I concede the point, Snoggy.
  • gpgtxgpgtx Member Posts: 1,579 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I used a Dragon build when I did it. My general strategy was to distract the Elachi from firing on my allies by shooting them in the face with FaW, while simultaneously amping my weapon/shield power to insane levels. It worked reasonably well. Oh and I used Eject Warp plasma.

    And yes, my gear was only what I got from vendors, random drops, and mission rewards.

    I might not have even had all of my console slots filled......

    this is what i did not even all the same mk level equipment is was a rainbow of beams and took forever but it can be done

    the tier 3 mogia might do better if you can get a transphasic form a drop and torp spread 3 with it
    victoriasig_zps23c45368.jpg
  • gpgtxgpgtx Member Posts: 1,579 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    peter1z9 wrote: »
    The only thing they have to do to fix this mission is to have the named reinforcements bring some generic friends with them. The point of the first two waves should be you and the Romulans holding out until your reinforcements arrive.

    When the reinforcements do arrive, all you get are a few named hero ships. There are so many Elachi in the last wave that your hero unit reinforcements are all stuck repairing...causing them to be nothing but a minor distraction. The third wave should give you enough reinforcements to do the job since you theoretically bought yourself enough time in the first two waves for the reinforcements to arrive.

    they do bring friends they just get wiped out instantly form the green cones of death
    victoriasig_zps23c45368.jpg
  • otowiotowi Member Posts: 600 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I used a Dragon build when I did it. My general strategy was to distract the Elachi from firing on my allies by shooting them in the face with FaW, while simultaneously amping my weapon/shield power to insane levels. It worked reasonably well. Oh and I used Eject Warp plasma.

    And yes, my gear was only what I got from vendors, random drops, and mission rewards.

    I might not have even had all of my console slots filled......

    Hmm.. I tried something close to the Dragon build, but with a few minor changes that suits me better.

    That some of you are beating the mission with apparant ease, and some of us ends up blown into tiny pieces time and again does point out that something is not quite right with this mission.

    It might be builds, but you should not require a specific build to be able to complete this mission. Also that fact that the dreadnought is very hard considering the level this is played at. The dreadnought is bad enough alone, but the other Elachi ships supporting it means that it's very hard. And said support ships aggroes you when you attack the dreadnought, so it's a dreadnought and it's support ships blowing you into yet more space dust...

    And the fact that the allied support ships just sits there repairing does not exactly help the matter at hand either.
  • montanis2012montanis2012 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I still haven't figured out why the thread owner has named this discussion "The Elachi are ridiculus" ... he complains about 1 mission and the seeming imbalance of the Elachi ships in that Episode... but thats it... and if they were ridiculous he wouldn't have that hard a time beating them...

    Seriously... I think the Elachi are an interesting enemy and unusual for Star Trek. The story tells almost nothing about who and what they are... they are related to the Iconians in some way. The entire Fungus thing is creepy enough though. Their ships seem not to be very much biotech at least from the outside. And where they came from remains mysterious. Since Species 8472 aka Undine no new enemy was as mysterious as these creatures. Not That the concept has not been used in other SciFi shows.

    When reading through this topic i was expecting some point of view on who or what the Elachi are... nothing of that so far. A lot of advice how to fight them yes and some more or less relevant critics on the imbalance of the aformentioned Episode.

    So still... why are the Elachi ridiculus???
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    never bothered leveling up that high, again, but it sounds like theres an actually challenging mission to look forward too. unless all this wineing about it gets it nerfed into nothing. seriously, the average pve'er uses their ship to about 10% of its potential, and the devs balance the pve based on those people. thats why space pve is so frigging bad.

    the op has a valid point, the defense of new romulus has one too many ships on the enemy side on the final wave alone, you end up respawning more times then you care to imagine. the command ship needs an adjustment to its defense stats, because as it is even on a default layout it is impossible. typically even on standard STF's you can make an impression on enemy ship shields and hull alike with that default layout so i fail to see why you can not defeat the command ship by yourself as it should be, where as the stf typically requires 5 players.

    i only did that mission once but i believe a strategy change is required though due to the amount of enemy ships and the very limited support assuming cryptic are not interested in a balance change, attacking the small stuff and working the way up (what i call "knocking the support pins out from underneath it."), removing the smaller stuff takes more unnecessary dps out of the picture and increasing the survivability odds which weakens the enemy... assuming you survive long enough to do such a thing.

    it is the only real badly balanced thing i have seen in STO for quite some time.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I still haven't figured out why the thread owner has named this discussion "The Elachi are ridiculus" ... he complains about 1 mission and the seeming imbalance of the Elachi ships in that Episode... but thats it... and if they were ridiculous he wouldn't have that hard a time beating them...

    Seriously... I think the Elachi are an interesting enemy and unusual for Star Trek. The story tells almost nothing about who and what they are... they are related to the Iconians in some way. The entire Fungus thing is creepy enough though. Their ships seem not to be very much biotech at least from the outside. And where they came from remains mysterious. Since Species 8472 aka Undine no new enemy was as mysterious as these creatures. Not That the concept has not been used in other SciFi shows.

    When reading through this topic i was expecting some point of view on who or what the Elachi are... nothing of that so far. A lot of advice how to fight them yes and some more or less relevant critics on the imbalance of the aformentioned Episode.

    So still... why are the Elachi ridiculus???

    They walk funny?
    Live long and Prosper
  • verline1verline1 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    That last wave is brutal, especially with only drops that far. But its not the individual ships, its the mass that makes it ugly.

    Some of them do extend shields, some do repairs, you get VM periodically, tractor mines that last until you kill them, which are fired via torpedo.

    Tack on that basically every elachi ship can space jump, all but the fighters have the green cone that fires some sort of disruptor wave, and that they basically spider tank, it can get brutal.

    My third wave came in, and they all coned at the same time, it murdered the npc fleet almost instantly. and with all the spider tanking, killing the command ship is hard, and thinning the ranks can be tricky when trying to dodge out of all those cones.

    I don't think any given elachi ship is all that bad, tricky for some builds and ships, but not unbeatable. its this particular mix, in these numbers, plus how they fight that can turn the third wave from difficult into a meat grinder.

    I don't think the ships them selves need to be tweaked, or the ai, though the mix and number of ships in the last wave might need a bit of adjusting.
  • xenosisukxenosisuk Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I have a Theory on why some people me included kept getting Vaporised here.

    Well question first; People who got lets call it it spaced (just blown to bits every time you spawn) around what time of day was it?
    part two of the Question the people who found it easier, around what time of day was it?

    My theory is this, for some reason it was spawning in enemies for players in groups rather than the individual player, what I mean, More people doing the mission meant more Elachi ships to fight for everyone although the player was not grouped.

    I am probably wrong but that's my theory
  • otowiotowi Member Posts: 600 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    xenosisuk wrote: »
    I have a Theory on why some people me included kept getting Vaporised here.

    Well question first; People who got lets call it it spaced (just blown to bits every time you spawn) around what time of day was it?
    part two of the Question the people who found it easier, around what time of day was it?

    My theory is this, for some reason it was spawning in enemies for players in groups rather than the individual player, what I mean, More people doing the mission meant more Elachi ships to fight for everyone although the player was not grouped.

    I am probably wrong but that's my theory

    Not a bad theory mate. It does seems to be a bit too many Elachi ships in the last wave, and not enough allied NPC support.

    The last wave really needs some looking at before LoR goes live. Many players will get stuck on this part. I get that it's the final mission, but that does not mean it should be ESTF like in difficulty rating.

    I doubt the time of day has any bearing, but you never know when it comes to Cryptic.

    If you are supposed to do this solo, as I said above, it needs some tuning. If it is meant to be done in a group, then it should use the same queue system as for the STF's...

    Or it could simply be that this being Tribble, that something is messed up or it might even be Cryptic's intent to have it this hard to see how many can beat it as it sits right now. Hopefully they will see that many are stuck on the last wave, and do some tuning to make it more fair, but still a good challenge, without it being a meat grinder...
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Rather than looking externally for an issue...

    I've done it on multiple characters...multiple times.

    You don't have to destroy any ship other than the Command Ship. You destroy that...the others fall apart and go away. The Command Ship is on the left side. Almost every time that wave has spawned, I've been on the right side. There's no point in fighting your way over to it. Cloak and come from that side.

    Are folks spamming FAW/TS and other AoE attacks - grabbing all sorts of aggro and doing damage to ship they don't need to kill?

    It's one ship. Come around to that side. Kite it off from the rest. Kill it.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Are folks spamming FAW/TS and other AoE attacks - grabbing all sorts of aggro and doing damage to ship they don't need to kill?

    But how else can one using beams inflate their DPS parses without AoE spam?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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