All these people saying Cryptic makes more money when the Zen rate is high or low are wrong.
Cryptic makes the most money when people spend cash to buy zen, and they only do that when there are z store items that lots of players want.
Manipulating Zen prices up or down is irrelevant for Cryptic since they control the total supply of dilithium, and they control the supply of z store items.
300 dil per zen or 50 dil per zen makes no difference to Cryptic. Their profits are based on how many Zen are leaving the system.
All these people saying Cryptic makes more money when the Zen rate is high or low are wrong.
Cryptic makes the most money when people spend cash to buy zen, and they only do that when there are z store items that lots of players want.
Manipulating Zen prices up or down is irrelevant for Cryptic since they control the total supply of dilithium, and they control the supply of z store items.
300 dil per zen or 50 dil per zen makes no difference to Cryptic. Their profits are based on how many Zen are leaving the system.
Granted, I'm far from being an expert regarding economics but isn't a high Z rate more likely to be in PWE's favour? If the rate is 50 a player might settle for grinding his dil for getting something of the store. If the rate is 500 the grind gets more tedious and more players are tempted to just buy zen with currency instead of giving in to weeks or months of grinding.
I'm not saying that they influence the exchange, though
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Granted, I'm far from being an expert regarding economics but isn't a high Z rate more likely to be in PWE's favour? If the rate is 50 a player might settle for grinding his dil for getting something of the store. If the rate is 500 the grind gets more tedious and more players are tempted to just buy zen with currency instead of giving in to weeks or months of grinding.
No. It doesn't matter how a player gets his/her Zen. Someone has paid PWE for it or it wouldn't exist.
Not everyone buys Zen. The dilithium exchange is a way of increasing the customer base for the C-store, by allowing the players who buy Zen to sell it to the players who don't. This allows PWE to monetize the entire playerbase, instead of just the fraction that buys Zen directly.
The free market of the dilithium exchange maximizes the amount of trading. When the price is too high, people buy less and there is a natural pressure on sellers to lower the price to get their product sold and when it's too low, people sell less and the pressure is on buyers to offer more to get any. The price will tend to stabilize at the point where supply and demand meet.
Manipulating the exchange rate in either direction would reduce the amount of Zen being traded, and therefore the amount of Zen being bought.
You're trying to sound like you know what you're talking about yet you're making some very dubious assertions. To say that how players get their zen is irrelevant seems to show you know very little about microeconomics, but more importantly you seem to believe that a higher exchange rate would not encourage more people to buy zen in order to purchase dilithium.
Obviously an equilibrium would eventually be found, and in the long-run the main determiner of the exchange rate will be the motives to trade dilithium for zen; essentially the desirability of the items on the c-store. Yes the market will settle, but this higher demand also has the effect of increasing the amount of zen bought via real money due to some people deciding to save their dilithium and instead use real money to purchase zen, if that trade-off is more favorable for them.
Ultimately Cryptic WILL make more money with a higher rate, because zen bought via real cash will increase if it is harder to acquire through in-game resources such as dilithium, assuming of course that Cryptic doesn't manipulate the sources of dilithium to increase the supply side. Ultimately however the C-store's items and the value of dilithium to players in-game versus the value of zen is what will determine the equilibrium exchange rate, but please don't assume that fluxuations due to something like an expansion release won't effect the market.
A higher exchange rate will indeed reduce the amount of dilithium being traded, but it will also certainly increase the amount of Zen being purchased, as the benefit from purchasing points is greater than before. This is rather basic economics.
Granted, I'm far from being an expert regarding economics but isn't a high Z rate more likely to be in PWE's favour? If the rate is 50 a player might settle for grinding his dil for getting something of the store. If the rate is 500 the grind gets more tedious and more players are tempted to just buy zen with currency instead of giving in to weeks or months of grinding.
I'm not saying that they influence the exchange, though
It doesnt matter if some one grinds dil to buy stuff from the c store, because someone bought that zen, and someone took it out of circulation by using it in the c store.
The only thing that really matters is that someone wants to buy the Zen and someone wants to spend it. The cost of zen is a function of the dilithium supply, but has no impact on their profits. Dilithium supply simply needs to be tuned so dilithium in to the economy matches the dilithium being spent.
You're trying to sound like you know what you're talking about yet you're making some very dubious assertions. To say that how players get their zen is irrelevant seems to show you know very little about microeconomics, but more importantly you seem to believe that a higher exchange rate would not encourage more people to buy zen in order to purchase dilithium.
Sorry to tell you, but I have a BA in economics, and his analysis fits economic theory just fine.
Make your case, but don't think you're going to get away with arguing from a position of authority.
To address your argument directly: Higher dilithium exchange rates may encourage people to want to buy Zen to exchange for dilithium, but they don't have any effect of the desire of people to spend Zen. Unless people are spending Zen, the supply of Zen will quickly outstrip demand, and the price will bottom back out. the higher short term demand defeats itself, and you wind up at equilibrium.
What ultimately matters is that there are C-store items that people want to buy with Zen, period. That's the business model.
The fact that Dilithium and Zen can be exchanged is a necessary function of the free to play model, so that players can plausibly get anything from just playing the game, but the reality is that regardless of where the exchange rate rests, the amount of dilithium unto the game has to be balanced against the amount leaving the game (to create compelling goals), and the amount of zen being bought has to be balanced by convincing people to spend that zen in the shop.
The ratio between those two currencies is basically irrelevant, except that it has to be set by an actual market and not arbitrarily.
I must admit, this thread has made me giggle. Isn't the point of the dilithium market to be player driven? If it's high or low, it's the players that push that line.
With that said, it's high now, and increasing, due in part to the last Crystalline Entity event where we were given that nice stash of 50k dilithium, not to mention LoR being released to the sharks in a few days. It's only going to go up in price for now. When the exchange first came out, zen was what, 350 per? I'm surprised it isn't any higher now, but it'll come. You want lower prices, wait a few months for things to settle down, it'll drop again.
In the meantime, either store up the dilithium for that said period of time, or just throw around real currency. Your choice.
Formerly known as Echo@Rivyn13
Member since early 2011
would like to know what pwe is going to do about it, because they also want a low zen rate (to sell more)
i got dil, that i want to spend, but i refuse to buy at this rate... and i know ALOT of people that agree with this
why are all these idiots buying zen so high !!
let it drop..
I always promised myself that I wouldn't nit pick threads but I have to on this occasion. I dont mean to cause offence to the OP.
PWE is going to do absolutely nothing about it other than key and zen promo's like they normally do. Bearing in mind Zen is across all PWE games so if it affects EVERY game then they will do something about it... otherwise it;s left to grow and contract on it's own like most other economies.
If you have dilithium and refuse to spend it then...well... Good for you! you keep storing that dilithium then when the time is right you cash it all in, but calling people idiots because the price isn't what you want it to be is a bit extreme... sit back...take a chill pill and remember the first tennet of this game... Be patient...
Speaking as a dilithium hunter/gatherer/seller, I'm fine with the rate raising. I won't be able to buy a master key or two per day to sell off (I found the doff packs and rare particle traces to be a better way to earn EC, but they're not reliable like the keys.) but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
And besides, with new content coming, I'll have more to do than hang out on Vlugta.
You have this all wrong... Cryptic/PWE wants high prices for Zen, so people (like you) will stop using in game assets, and instead, purchase Zen with $$$. After seeing Zen being weak for so long, its good to see a increase in its value...
I remembered something about this and managed to find it. You are wrong. Cryptic actually wants players to get MORE zen for their dilithium, i.e., less dil per zen, prices drop. And prices did drop after season 7 launched. Before S7 zen was staying around 160 dil each. By January it was staying around 89-90 each for a while. In fact, in a matter of 2 weeks the price of zen dropped from around 160 down to around 90 or so. It started dropping a few days after season 7 launched and I created a thread about it. http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=451941 (Edit: twg042370 you were post #5 in my thread and the last one to post in the thread. lol)
And again, in a matter of a couple weeks it shot back up rather quickly from around 90 to over 130 dil each. Prices ended up going back up rather quickly and has been staying steady around 130 dil per zen since the most recent rerun of the Fleet doff packs in the C-store having a chance to award the Jem'hadar Attack Ship, sometime in March if I remember right. Then after that promotion they announced Legacy of Romulus and Zen never went back down below 100 dil each.
Here is your proof that Cryptic said more zen for less dilithium.
While the Dilithium Trading economy is entirely the realm of players trading with other players, our goal with the Dilithium changes in Season 7 is to stay out of the way as much as possible while increasing the amount of Dilithium earned on average by level 50 players.
We expect the market to fluctuate as players find the new balance, but in general we want players earning Dilithium to get a decent amount of Zen for their trade so that players who are putting in the most effort to earn Dilithium can find a market to trade the time they?ve spent in the game for Zen.
Our expectation is that the Season 7 Dilithium changes will have minimal impact once the changes are fully realized and players are understanding of how things have shifted. We will continue to monitor the Trade data to ensure that the Trade market stays solid, but ultimately we leave it up to players to determine the trade values.
Think about it for a second. If the amount of dil you get per zen goes down, then players buying zen with real money to trade for dil will need to buy more zen for real money in order to get the dil they need. If the price of zen goes up, players won't have to spend as much money on zen because they can get more dil for it.
...
Think about it for a second. If the amount of dil you get per zen goes down, then players buying zen with real money to trade for dil will need to buy more zen for real money in order to get the dil they need. If the price of zen goes up, players won't have to spend as much money on zen because they can get more dil for it.
Actually, it doesn't even take a second to think about this...
If the price of Zen goes up, and increase its in-game value, then it becomes more of a bargain for people who are purchasing Zen with $$$, and encourages people who buy Zen with $$$ to purchase more. If the price of Zen drops too low, then people will stop using $$$ to purchase Zen, and use free game assets to purchase it. (Remember, purchasing Dilithium isn't the only thing that Zen is used for...) And ultimately, the vast majority of Zen being traded on the Exchange are purchased with $$$, since other then the Exchange, there is no other means to earn Zen in-game.
And your memory of Zen prices on the Exchange appears to be quite limited. When the Dilithium Exchange was first added to STO, its initial price for Zen was above 400 Dilithium. Before the introduction of F2P, Zen was always trading in the 200 - 300 Dilithium range for the previous year. It was only with the introduction Fleet Projects and Rep, (both major Dilithium sinks) that caused Zen to drop out of this trading range.
With the introduction of new Dilithium sources in-game (new STFs, adding Dilithium Rewards to the Foundry, temporary items such as the CE Event) as well as other changes to encourage the 'average' player to earn more Dilithium, this of course, will increase the amount of Dilithium trading in the game, and encourage the price of Zen to raise. If Cryptic/PWE actually wanted the price of Zen to fall, then they would be introducing more Dilithium Sinks, making free Dilithium harder to find and more valuable...
yes it was 350 last yr (120 when f2p started), but then we did not need dil like we do now
so 100 dil to zen rate is now basicly 200 dil to zen rate... imo
would like to know what pwe is going to do about it, because they also want a low zen rate (to sell more)
i got dil, that i want to spend, but i refuse to buy at this rate... and i know ALOT of people that agree with this
why are all these idiots buying zen so high !!
let it drop..
or just get rid of the whole system, and make it a fixed 50 orsomething..
What PWE is going to do about it? You serious? The zen exchange works solely based on the amount of zen and dilithium in this game and is pretty much player controlled.
(Oh sure i think PWE/Cryptic have their hands on the buttons as well
130 is too much for you? 130 is RIDICULOUSLY CHEAP! 180 is also kinda cheap! How much you want to pay for it? You want it for free? If you think about it, 500 is maxium amount you could get from 1 zen, and 50 is least, percentually 130 is... 27% of the overall maxium price, I would be happy for 200-220 each too.
Say the word, it saves the world. CUUCUUMBEER!"-With slight partigen with it." Proud member or DPS-800"-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Please don't give them ideas. I cry myself to sleep thinking about the 8k cap.
Why? Play 2 characters, then you have a 16k per day cap.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Would love to see it back up in the 250+ range. 130? thats way way low. If you don't like the so called "High Price" of Dil/Zen ratio, how about getting a job, save up some money, and buy the Zen yourself. Oh wait...you could also beg your parents to pay for it.
My kids do chores and little side jobs like babysitting and whatnot to help pay for any games that they play. At least they know nothing is cheap in life. Just something for you to think about before you start complaining about zen/dil conversion prices again.
Don't worry, your government is on top of fixing the STO zen economy as soon as they fix the real one... hmm maybe if the real economy was good the zen would become better by extension. Funny how everything is connected. People have more jobs make more money their money is worth more in releation to goods and services.
I think we should blame it on the current administration or the previous 3 or 4 i forget how blame and shirking responsibility works, maybe we could get the ALL-State insurance guy to handle it. Responsibility is their policy, at least in the commercial. Have a day!;)
They rly need to lower the zen rate... people are quiting STO no adays
Let's say it again: Cryptic doesn't control the Dilithium to Zen rate. The players do. When there's a lot of Dilithium in the system the rate goes up. When there's a lot of Zen in the system the rate goes down.
Right now there's a lot of Diltihium in the system, not only from the millions that were gotten in the Foundry exploit but also all the players who got 50,000 worth from the CE event. 10,000 players getting 50,000 Dilithium amounts to half a billion extra Dilithium in the system - and that's just assuming 10k did the CE event.
On top of that Zen sellers are hedging that there will be a Zen demand when LoR goes live. IE, they think their Zen is worth more because a lot of people will be buying new Rom ships. This happens every time a new Season comes out with C-Store items. This too shall pass.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Would love to see it back up in the 250+ range. 130? thats way way low. If you don't like the so called "High Price" of Dil/Zen ratio, how about getting a job, save up some money, and buy the Zen yourself. Oh wait...you could also beg your parents to pay for it.
My kids do chores and little side jobs like babysitting and whatnot to help pay for any games that they play. At least they know nothing is cheap in life. Just something for you to think about before you start complaining about zen/dil conversion prices again.
Thanks for that, Ward. I'm sure the Beaver will grow up to be an outstanding citizen.
I have little patience for that kind of grind. I have to push myself to get the cap on one character. Two? Perish the thought.
Well, the more characters you have the quicker you can get to 8k too. 2 characters each making 4k takes less time then 1 character going to 8k.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Comments
Indeed, I haven't sold any zen myself since the 360 something rate that existed months ago.
Cryptic makes the most money when people spend cash to buy zen, and they only do that when there are z store items that lots of players want.
Manipulating Zen prices up or down is irrelevant for Cryptic since they control the total supply of dilithium, and they control the supply of z store items.
300 dil per zen or 50 dil per zen makes no difference to Cryptic. Their profits are based on how many Zen are leaving the system.
Granted, I'm far from being an expert regarding economics but isn't a high Z rate more likely to be in PWE's favour? If the rate is 50 a player might settle for grinding his dil for getting something of the store. If the rate is 500 the grind gets more tedious and more players are tempted to just buy zen with currency instead of giving in to weeks or months of grinding.
I'm not saying that they influence the exchange, though
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Not everyone buys Zen. The dilithium exchange is a way of increasing the customer base for the C-store, by allowing the players who buy Zen to sell it to the players who don't. This allows PWE to monetize the entire playerbase, instead of just the fraction that buys Zen directly.
The free market of the dilithium exchange maximizes the amount of trading. When the price is too high, people buy less and there is a natural pressure on sellers to lower the price to get their product sold and when it's too low, people sell less and the pressure is on buyers to offer more to get any. The price will tend to stabilize at the point where supply and demand meet.
Manipulating the exchange rate in either direction would reduce the amount of Zen being traded, and therefore the amount of Zen being bought.
Obviously an equilibrium would eventually be found, and in the long-run the main determiner of the exchange rate will be the motives to trade dilithium for zen; essentially the desirability of the items on the c-store. Yes the market will settle, but this higher demand also has the effect of increasing the amount of zen bought via real money due to some people deciding to save their dilithium and instead use real money to purchase zen, if that trade-off is more favorable for them.
Ultimately Cryptic WILL make more money with a higher rate, because zen bought via real cash will increase if it is harder to acquire through in-game resources such as dilithium, assuming of course that Cryptic doesn't manipulate the sources of dilithium to increase the supply side. Ultimately however the C-store's items and the value of dilithium to players in-game versus the value of zen is what will determine the equilibrium exchange rate, but please don't assume that fluxuations due to something like an expansion release won't effect the market.
A higher exchange rate will indeed reduce the amount of dilithium being traded, but it will also certainly increase the amount of Zen being purchased, as the benefit from purchasing points is greater than before. This is rather basic economics.
It doesnt matter if some one grinds dil to buy stuff from the c store, because someone bought that zen, and someone took it out of circulation by using it in the c store.
The only thing that really matters is that someone wants to buy the Zen and someone wants to spend it. The cost of zen is a function of the dilithium supply, but has no impact on their profits. Dilithium supply simply needs to be tuned so dilithium in to the economy matches the dilithium being spent.
Sorry to tell you, but I have a BA in economics, and his analysis fits economic theory just fine.
Make your case, but don't think you're going to get away with arguing from a position of authority.
To address your argument directly: Higher dilithium exchange rates may encourage people to want to buy Zen to exchange for dilithium, but they don't have any effect of the desire of people to spend Zen. Unless people are spending Zen, the supply of Zen will quickly outstrip demand, and the price will bottom back out. the higher short term demand defeats itself, and you wind up at equilibrium.
What ultimately matters is that there are C-store items that people want to buy with Zen, period. That's the business model.
The fact that Dilithium and Zen can be exchanged is a necessary function of the free to play model, so that players can plausibly get anything from just playing the game, but the reality is that regardless of where the exchange rate rests, the amount of dilithium unto the game has to be balanced against the amount leaving the game (to create compelling goals), and the amount of zen being bought has to be balanced by convincing people to spend that zen in the shop.
The ratio between those two currencies is basically irrelevant, except that it has to be set by an actual market and not arbitrarily.
With that said, it's high now, and increasing, due in part to the last Crystalline Entity event where we were given that nice stash of 50k dilithium, not to mention LoR being released to the sharks in a few days. It's only going to go up in price for now. When the exchange first came out, zen was what, 350 per? I'm surprised it isn't any higher now, but it'll come. You want lower prices, wait a few months for things to settle down, it'll drop again.
In the meantime, either store up the dilithium for that said period of time, or just throw around real currency. Your choice.
Member since early 2011
I always promised myself that I wouldn't nit pick threads but I have to on this occasion. I dont mean to cause offence to the OP.
PWE is going to do absolutely nothing about it other than key and zen promo's like they normally do. Bearing in mind Zen is across all PWE games so if it affects EVERY game then they will do something about it... otherwise it;s left to grow and contract on it's own like most other economies.
If you have dilithium and refuse to spend it then...well... Good for you! you keep storing that dilithium then when the time is right you cash it all in, but calling people idiots because the price isn't what you want it to be is a bit extreme... sit back...take a chill pill and remember the first tennet of this game... Be patient...
And besides, with new content coming, I'll have more to do than hang out on Vlugta.
I remembered something about this and managed to find it. You are wrong. Cryptic actually wants players to get MORE zen for their dilithium, i.e., less dil per zen, prices drop. And prices did drop after season 7 launched. Before S7 zen was staying around 160 dil each. By January it was staying around 89-90 each for a while. In fact, in a matter of 2 weeks the price of zen dropped from around 160 down to around 90 or so. It started dropping a few days after season 7 launched and I created a thread about it. http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=451941 (Edit: twg042370 you were post #5 in my thread and the last one to post in the thread. lol)
And again, in a matter of a couple weeks it shot back up rather quickly from around 90 to over 130 dil each. Prices ended up going back up rather quickly and has been staying steady around 130 dil per zen since the most recent rerun of the Fleet doff packs in the C-store having a chance to award the Jem'hadar Attack Ship, sometime in March if I remember right. Then after that promotion they announced Legacy of Romulus and Zen never went back down below 100 dil each.
Here is your proof that Cryptic said more zen for less dilithium.
Season 7 Dev Blog #17 http://sto.perfectworld.com/blog/?p=747851
(Very last paragraph)
Think about it for a second. If the amount of dil you get per zen goes down, then players buying zen with real money to trade for dil will need to buy more zen for real money in order to get the dil they need. If the price of zen goes up, players won't have to spend as much money on zen because they can get more dil for it.
If the price of Zen goes up, and increase its in-game value, then it becomes more of a bargain for people who are purchasing Zen with $$$, and encourages people who buy Zen with $$$ to purchase more. If the price of Zen drops too low, then people will stop using $$$ to purchase Zen, and use free game assets to purchase it. (Remember, purchasing Dilithium isn't the only thing that Zen is used for...) And ultimately, the vast majority of Zen being traded on the Exchange are purchased with $$$, since other then the Exchange, there is no other means to earn Zen in-game.
And your memory of Zen prices on the Exchange appears to be quite limited. When the Dilithium Exchange was first added to STO, its initial price for Zen was above 400 Dilithium. Before the introduction of F2P, Zen was always trading in the 200 - 300 Dilithium range for the previous year. It was only with the introduction Fleet Projects and Rep, (both major Dilithium sinks) that caused Zen to drop out of this trading range.
With the introduction of new Dilithium sources in-game (new STFs, adding Dilithium Rewards to the Foundry, temporary items such as the CE Event) as well as other changes to encourage the 'average' player to earn more Dilithium, this of course, will increase the amount of Dilithium trading in the game, and encourage the price of Zen to raise. If Cryptic/PWE actually wanted the price of Zen to fall, then they would be introducing more Dilithium Sinks, making free Dilithium harder to find and more valuable...
What PWE is going to do about it? You serious? The zen exchange works solely based on the amount of zen and dilithium in this game and is pretty much player controlled.
(Oh sure i think PWE/Cryptic have their hands on the buttons as well
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Please don't give them ideas. I cry myself to sleep thinking about the 8k cap.
Member since early 2011
My kids do chores and little side jobs like babysitting and whatnot to help pay for any games that they play. At least they know nothing is cheap in life. Just something for you to think about before you start complaining about zen/dil conversion prices again.
I think we should blame it on the current administration or the previous 3 or 4 i forget how blame and shirking responsibility works, maybe we could get the ALL-State insurance guy to handle it. Responsibility is their policy, at least in the commercial. Have a day!;)
Right now there's a lot of Diltihium in the system, not only from the millions that were gotten in the Foundry exploit but also all the players who got 50,000 worth from the CE event. 10,000 players getting 50,000 Dilithium amounts to half a billion extra Dilithium in the system - and that's just assuming 10k did the CE event.
On top of that Zen sellers are hedging that there will be a Zen demand when LoR goes live. IE, they think their Zen is worth more because a lot of people will be buying new Rom ships. This happens every time a new Season comes out with C-Store items. This too shall pass.
Thanks for that, Ward. I'm sure the Beaver will grow up to be an outstanding citizen.
I have little patience for that kind of grind. I have to push myself to get the cap on one character. Two? Perish the thought.
Member since early 2011