True, that would make sense if the scimitar was to be the big and bad cruiser for the rommies. But imagine the turn-rate. It could be worse than the D'deridexe's turn-rate.
The last I heard it might be a 3-pack. Thus we'll get a Tac, Sci, and Eng version - all with various consoles that can be combined for set bonuses. Some of those bonuses might benefit turn rate.
But no matter what STO is still Escort-central, and has been for a long time now. Want to be a Rom doing an STF? You're not going to pick the Big D or the Scimitar. You're going to pick one of the high DPS escort-types that allow you to get it done quickly so you can get the time sensitive bonus item.
It's the same reason STFs are full of Tacs, Scis, and Engineers flying escorts in Elite STFs now. They don't pick those ships for the love. They pick em for the DPS.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Given that both the Fleet Excelsior and Fleet Assault Cruiser have four tac consoles this has to be a mistake on Cryptic's part. Talk about castrating a mammoth before its even had a chance to debut! :rolleyes:
"The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward." - Rocky Balboa (2006)
I am guessing that the upcoming Scimitar will be the "big slow cruiser-type ship" heavily weighted toward tactical. Cryptic needs to look at a scale which includes ships we haven't seen in-game yet.
You're looking at the Big D and thinking "pinnacle of Romulan tech" and they're looking at other ships, like the Scimitar, that are more powerful but also need to fit within their playable scale.
Well the KDF gets both the Bortasqu and the Fleet Torhkat as tac heavy cruisers. The Scimitar could have 5 tac consoles like a Tac Bortasqu, and the Fleet D'Deridex could get 4 tac consoles more tac boffs like how the Vorcha gets when compared to its Fleet version. D'D and Vorcha are both from the same era and were comparable ships so there is no reason why their Fleet versions shouldn't also have similar firepower.
Given that both the Fleet Excelsior and Fleet Assault Cruiser have four tac consoles this has to be a mistake on Cryptic's part. Talk about castrating a mammoth before its even had a chance to debut! :rolleyes:
Except the D'Deridex isn't comparable to the Fleet Excelsior or the Fleet Assault Cruiser. It's comparable to the GALAXY. Ergo, it's going to suck. Seriously, they've said this plenty of times. Why did you think the D'Deridex was going to be a good ship? The Galaxy is a piece of $h!t and it's the template they're basing the D'Deridex on. If you want to succeed in STO, fly an Escort. That's clearly the design philosophy this game has followed for more than a year.
The last I heard it might be a 3-pack. Thus we'll get a Tac, Sci, and Eng version - all with various consoles that can be combined for set bonuses. Some of those bonuses might benefit turn rate.
But no matter what STO is still Escort-central, and has been for a long time now. Want to be a Rom doing an STF? You're not going to pick the Big D or the Scimitar. You're going to pick one of the high DPS escort-types that allow you to get it done quickly so you can get the time sensitive bonus item.
It's the same reason STFs are full of Tacs, Scis, and Engineers flying escorts in Elite STFs now. They don't pick those ships for the love. They pick em for the DPS.
Decent DPS in an STF can also be done with a few of the DPS cruisers when set up correctly. I use my Bortasqu and Fleet Torkhat often in STFs and can keep up with escorts, often doing better then most of the pug escorts. I can do almost as well using a Fleet Regent also.
The D'Deridex could also do a respectable job in an STF if it is given a fleet version with 4 tac consoles and at least Lt Cmdr Tac at minimum.
Except the D'Deridex isn't comparable to the Fleet Excelsior or the Fleet Assault Cruiser. It's comparable to the GALAXY. Ergo, it's going to suck. Seriously, they've said this plenty of times. Why did you think the D'Deridex was going to be a good ship? The Galaxy is a piece of $h!t and it's the template they're basing the D'Deridex on. If you want to succeed in STO, fly an Escort. That's clearly the design philosophy this game has followed for more than a year.
It should also be comparable to the Vorcha, the KDF ship from the same era that it faced off with many times. The Galaxy should also be improved but thats a seperate issue.
Well the KDF gets both the Bortasqu and the Fleet Torhkat as tac heavy cruisers. The Scimitar could have 5 tac consoles like a Tac Bortasqu, and the Fleet D'Deridex could get 4 tac consoles more tac boffs like how the Vorcha gets when compared to its Fleet version. D'D and Vorcha are both from the same era and were comparable ships so there is no reason why their Fleet versions shouldn't also have similar firepower.
DStahl has hinted that a Scimitar is coming. But he's also flat out said that it isn't going to be the Romulan Flagship. (The Odyssey and the Bort equivalent). So that means that there's yet ANOTHER ship also coming. That will be the Ody/Bort equivalent.
Not the D'Deridex. Not the Scimitar. Probably a Cryptic created design.
Zerobang, sci stuff doesn't plainly suck. There are the threat-sci cunsoles from the embassy now which help out in plasma damage or hull or shield heal additionally to +32 (ok, 31.9 lol) shield emitters if you choose the emitter array (which is the only useful in all those cunsoles for science) MK XII version. And if you're an escort, it even helps you not getting aggro that much in a team if you have -Th on. So, yeah sci used to suck, butt no longer now with the new cunsoles in ultra rare MK XII quality.
Sadly it does not make up for the fact that besides Heals most Sci abilities are STILL brutally over compensated for by NPC and Player Ships with hardly any skill invested into their counters thus making them nearly useless.
The ones saying that in canon it's a more tactical orientated ship which would require a complete redesign of boff slots as well as consoles. This is saying the D'Deridex should not be a support ship which they may have a point on.
Then the others that are calling for more than 2 tactical slots which is what the OP was talking about. There are many ships with only 2 tactical slots and they tend to be support ships, this is clearly designed as a support ship and damage should be secondary to the role as support.
Two things to that:
1) It should NOT be a Support Ship. It was CLEARLY a War ship in the Shows (War Bird, read: Battle Ship) and thus making it anything but a pretty fiercesome damage dealer (even if sluggish to turn, like say the Bortasqu' Tactical) would seem extremely contrary to the ship.
2) The term "Support Ship" in this game either refers to A) The Tal'Kyr or A waste of a slot in your team... I hate to be so blunt and ruthless but the fact is that no one really needs a wet blanket to support them. What they NEED is more things dying faster to support them lol. Enemies do not fire back once they are space dust.
Until Cryptic decides that STO isn't Escorts-Online there's never going to be a cruiser configuration that everyone loves.
Well they don't need to come up with a config that every one likes. They just need a config that *some one* likes.
I don't have a problem with the BoFF config even though it's very light on DPS, because at least there are engineering boff powers that do something other than add hull toughness.
Even 2 tac consoles is not necessarily a major problem. Some other good ships are weak on Tac consoles, like the VoQuv Mirror, or some science centric ship variants.
But 2 tac consoles and only 3 science consoles, and zero hangar bays? That's just bad. There's no role for a ship that can't generate threat, can't do damage, and doesn't have hangars or science powers (or both) to make up for it all. The fact that it's also a slow turning, high inertia space slug with a 4/4 config just makes it worse.
Since were on the subject of the D'deridex i will give a run down on it since ive worked exclusivley on this ship trying to find out how to make get it battle ready.
Pros
1) Its a big durable tank it can take alot of damage put 3x nuetronium XI or better and its hard to destroy...were not talking about the borg and how they make armour look like paper mache.
2) Its battle cloak enables it to turn really good couple that with evasive manuevers and attack pattern alpha or omega and i can make it spin 360 degrees without stopping.
3) Shield points are really good this adds to its being a big tank
Cons
1) 1 tac BO station and its only a centurion/ lieutenant
2) 2 tac console slots
3) 3 engi slots ....strange for a battles cruiser at tier 4
4) 3 aft guns like a galaxy
5) Turns like a bathtub thats bolted to the floor when not cloaked
6) Due to the lack of a second tac officer or atleast make the one there is a commander station and only 2 tac consoles leaves this a very under powered ship.
theres alot more but this is what im gonna post for now
But the D'deridex as it is its better suited to roleplay i wouldnt take this ship into a PvP since all i would be is a sitting duck.
Even claoking and decloaking for turn rate would only prolong your inevitable demise.
Section 31Lane/Jeffjr/Varek @jeffjr USS Stadi/USS Grendel/USS AshigaruDreadnought Class Refit / Avenger Class Refit/Rhode Island Class Refit"With your shield or on it"/"Mors venit ad omnes."/"One with courage is a majority"https://www.youtube.com/@jeffjr84
When Legacy of Romulus was first unveiled, how many of us had the first thought "Finally I'll fly a D'deridex!"?
I know I did. Seeing those stats makes me sad and die a little inside. It's also not just the two tac console thing. The boff layout is also terrible. Combine the two and add the turn rate on top and you can basically just write a makro to activate abandon ship whenever it's off cooldown.
I mean it's all a question of trade-offs. But this ships gets nothing in return. We'll need half of the 5 eng consoles just to be able to switch from probes in KASE to a generator fast enough before the next waves of probes spawns.
So we deal no damage, only have two or three console slots left for actual survivability and not enough sci slots to make the enemies target us either. Not sure where we are supposed to slot universal consoles.
"Battle" Cloak is a joke if we don't deal any damage after decloaking. We don't even have a high enough tac slot to use BO3 for a big alpha strike.
And whoever said it's supposed to be a "support" ship, what is the basis for that? Did Cryptic say that? In the shows it was always alone or in a pack of other D'deridex. It didn't support anything. I won't even bother bringing up again that no one needs support in this game too if a Defiant can solo tank a Tac Cube fine alone since the people not getting it won't get it into their heads this time either.
This ship is just a design failure. There is no design philosophy behind it. They just look at the (TRIBBLE poor) number of combinations they have available to distribute 10 console and X boff slots and slap every combination to a random ship and call it a day.
This is the real problem behind so many issues in this game. Cryptic are terrible game designers. They are good at visually designing shiny things that people want (and picking things to implement that people want), but when it comes to actual gameplay, they have just no clue what they are doing. No design philosophy, no gameplay philosophy, just a mess of systems they made up 3 years ago for a game that had no content beyond shooting randomly generated critters in randomly generated star systems, they now struggle to shoehorn that system into a meaningful game. You might just as well call it and give up Cryptic.
The D'Deridex is not going to be the Romulan equivalent of the Excelsior.
Look to one of the other ships for that. Or wait for the newer ships that come out after launch.
Won't happen, not with me at least I won't be looking for a newer Romulan tactiical cruiser if it isn't a D'Deridex model. This is game breaking as far as I am concerned, a slap in the face on Romulan fans and I see no point in even making a Romulan with the D'D in its current state. Might as well just ignore release of Romulans for now for all I care unless news changes.
Tbh, this whole console stuff is just result of small room in console layout options.
If we for example had 20 console slots total, with weaker consoles and proper diminishing returns - something like this would never happen.
Most ships would have same energy dmg potential, just some heavy tac console ships would have room for torpedo/mine/other tac consoles.
It is also result of "energy weapons are king" aproach, where you do not need torpedoes and everything you need is to energy weapons stack energy weapon consoles.
The final result is that everyone wants as much as possible number of tac consoles for energy consoles and everything else is considered TRIBBLE. Which in turns makes it really hard for Cryptic to introduce new ships as everyone and their mother expects 3-4 tac consoles, or make it 4-5 already.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Tbh, this whole console stuff is just result of small room in console layout options.
If we for example had 20 console slots total, with weaker consoles and proper diminishing returns - something like this would never happen.
Most ships would have same energy dmg potential, just some heavy tac console ships would have room for torpedo/mine/other tac consoles.
It is also result of "energy weapons are king" aproach, where you do not need torpedoes and everything you need is to energy weapons stack energy weapon consoles.
The final result is that everyone wants as much as possible number of tac consoles for energy consoles and everything else is considered TRIBBLE. Which in turns makes it really hard for Cryptic to introduce new ships as everyone and their mother expects 3-4 tac consoles, or make it 4-5 already.
The D'D should be comparable to a Vorcha, both ships from the same era and the main battleships of their empires at the time.
The fleet version of the D'D could be like the Fleet Torhkat, get 4 tac consoles and Lt Cmdr tac. Yes before you mention it, they should also make a Galaxy that is more upgraded in firepower since it was also a ship from the same era that was comparable in firepower. They can just make the Fleet Dreadnought with 4 tac console and Lt Cmdr Tac and give option to remove third nacelle to make it look like a Gal.
Then all us TNG fans can be happy and not just Klingon and Cardassian fans who already have their TNG ships with good stats.
Yes but that leads us back to 4 tac consoles for everyone - where is the diversity? . We might as well boost everyones dmg by 120% and remove tac consoles. Because that is what people want anyway. So why bother with itemization.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
2) Its battle cloak enables it to turn really good couple that with evasive manuevers and attack pattern alpha or omega and i can make it spin 360 degrees without stopping.
it can not slot Attack Pattern Omega, that would require a Lt.Cmdr. Tac
//it baffles me how many players seem to be ok with it and still agree that it sucks just like the 2 year old Galaxy Class does.
(imho neither Ship is acceptable in the current state)
//few people that defend it as a support ship and are ok with it / try to find ways to make it usable
(best idea so far was to use sci consoles with plasma buff, but that pushes the ship into a very specific corner)
//lots of posts that just simply agree that 2 tac consoles are not enough
//few players who want Cryptic to fix the bigger problem instead the imbalance between TAC / SCI / ENG ships, i agree with this too, sadly the WIP solution didn't make it this season (the secondary deflector for SCI and Armor Slot for Tanks thing Geko talked about on Podcast UGC and Priority One) -> not happening yet, maybe something will happen next Season, but that Warbird needs to be a good Ship NOW, not in one or two seasons. (and even then, the Armor slot is the wrong direction, Tanks need more Pew, they are tanky enough that no one wants to shoot at them already.)
= mission accomplished, 11 page stinky thread about this issue that is what i call #appropriate feedback
Yes but that leads us back to 4 tac consoles for everyone - where is the diversity? . We might as well boost everyones dmg by 120% and remove tac consoles. Because that is what people want anyway. So why bother with itemization.
Well the Romulans should have ships that are more eng or Sci heavy but why they pick the D'D of all model for the eng heavy one? Its not fair and dispapoints to many fans when they can just pick other models or make a new one for the eng heavy role. It also just doesn't fit with battlecloaking tactics. Romulans give up turn rate and power levels partially because of that battlecloak, it needs more tac for that sacrifice to be worthwhile. Whats the point in decloaking in front of someone just to tank them. The D'D decloaking in front of a ship is supposed to cause fear like on TV but will just get laughed at in its current state. You don't sneak up on someone and decloak on them to tank them.
As I said, double the amount of consoles for each ship, half the values on existing consoles (except for the crappy ones like +subsystem power). Impose increasing diminished returns for 3+ consoles of same type (logarithmic curve). Problem solved.
Your D'D would have 4 tac consoles, in which you could slot 4 energy weapon consoles, and have only slighter lower dmg potential of ships with more tac consoles.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Well the Romulans should have ships that are more eng or Sci heavy but why they pick the D'D of all model for the eng heavy one? Its not fair and dispapoints to many fans when they can just pick other models or make a new one for the eng heavy role.
If they make iconic ships good, fans and min maxers alike will buy them and be done with buying ships.
If they make iconic ships ****, fans will buy them for being iconic, a lot of min maxers might still get them, and they still sell overpowered Cryptic originals to those on top.
It's all working as intended.
Iconic ships will stay **** and Cryptic originals will always be overpowered. That way they maximize their profits.
If they make iconic ships good, fans and min maxers alike will buy them and be done with buying ships.
If they make iconic ships ****, fans will buy them for being iconic, a lot of min maxers might still get them, and they still sell overpowered Cryptic originals to those on top.
It's all working as intended.
Iconic ships will stay **** and Cryptic originals will always be overpowered. That way they maximize their profits.
I get around to buying other ships eventually just to not get bored as I would do with Romulans. I want a capable D'D to buy first, but would also buy z-store/fleet versions of a few others like the Mogai and T'varo. However the lack of a capable D'D would be so disappointing I might not be even interested in making a Romulan in the first place.
That plan to give the D'D bad stats to get me to buy other ships won't work if I have no Romulan to buy them for. Others should do the same I think, if enough of us wait for a capable D'D to be released before making a Romulan they might have to do it.
The thing is that all ships having 3 or less tac console slots should hsve something to mske up for that but they dont. It makes no sence to go "look look i try tanking" but since you dont do dmg every fleet excelsior will take the aggro.
Also in the end its not about values here and there. Its about cryptic making the most iconic ships from the shows as worse as they can probably to ensure that we not all use this one ship. Its the same with the galaxy and even the dread. The kumari shows us how to male a nice special cannon and the dreads spinal lance should have been exactly like that. But it isnt. What they want is us going for escorts while they slightly increase the effectiveness of those ships ober time giving them more here more there and making us buy every last one of them.
Sometimes cryptic feels more like game-miners. They dont design for something they just try to mine as much money from this game as they can. Gecko recently said that basically that they try to find out want we want and how much they can charge us for it.
They have no final goal no real vision of the game it seems. They just do whatever they think is most profitable. Its really sad. A german game company made a really great game great graphics great gameplay great everything.. Except that the went bankrupt because they managed to not make it sell. All cryptic does is sell sell sell. I really wonder why we cant have both .. A good game design and enough profits to keep the game going.
To be honest, all three seem a wee bit off - of course, the way in which they seem off to me isn't going to help the folks that want more of a Tor'Kaht D'Deridex than a Negh'Var D'Deridex...but still:
Fleet D'Deridex
X, X
X X, X, X, X X, X X, X, X
3 Tac / 4 Eng / 3 Sci
Fleet Ha'apax (Sci)
X, X X, X, X, X X, X, X
X, X, X
2 Tac / 4 Eng / 4 Sci
Fleet Ha'apax (Tac)
X, X, X
X, X, X X, X, X, X X, X
4 Tac / 4 Eng / 2 Sci
It's my humble belief, that the 5 Sci Console vessel should be the Romulan Science Vessel that's not going to be there at the release of LoR. That given the Escort/Support Vessels involved with the four Ha'apax ships - that they should be split more Tac/Sci than Eng/Sci. Remember, they're Advanced Warbirds...not necessarily Warbird Battle Cruisers, eh?
Course, it's unlikely that the Ha'apax boats would get a fixed layout version of the Fleet Norgh's layout, eh? Probably would have been more realistic to make the second LCdr a Lt and add in an En Uni.
the ships with 5 consoles in 1 type should be solly on the ha'apax variants, leave the d'deridex out of that nonsense.
all 3 of those ship setups are pretty nice, but they arent quite in the right place.
ship 1 should be the d'deridex, ship 2 the ha'apax, and ship 3 the advanced ha'apax.
the dederidex has a battle cruiser pedigree in canon, that station and console setup suits it. similarity to the galaxy forced upon it is wrong. because they got the galaxy in game wrong, completely wrong. so getting the d'deridex wrong for consistency i can not abide, break that cycle here. hopefully soon the galaxy will be revisited and some positive change will happen for it. in the mean time, get the dederidex right.
oh, and once again thers that nagging turn rate issue i keep talking about. lets have a look at both the dederidex and ha'apax shall we?
that center section of the ha'apax alone has at least twice the volume of a d'deridex, yet they both turn at 5. the d'deridex, just compared to its big brother, and their movement sample here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOXT22Ghouw&t=1m48s shows that it deserves more. i dunno, about 9 turn or so? same as the negvar gets? it would be the same as the eventual regent setup c store negvar gecko has talked about, thats a little parity i would certainly like to see.
The D'deridex has lt tac, ensign tac, commander eng, ltcmd sci and lt universal.
AWESOME!
TRIBBLE your bloody tac console's!!!
I love that boff layout and what would ido with 5 tac consoles anway. there is so much CHEESE in console form i wanna put on this hunk that tac consoles are the least of my priorities....
What is important is the boff seating, and its GOOD.
Deflector - MACO Mk XII/Nukara Mk XII (depending on if you're fighting Tholians)
Impulse - Nukara Mk XII
Singularity - Hyper Injection Mk X [PG][OLoad] (whatever better version is available)
Shields - MACO Mk XII
Damn how many D'deridex threads are there now? I've lost count.
Isn't the D'deridex and on a related Galaxy meant to act and fly like space whales? The only difference is that unlike the Galaxy, the D'Deridex is meant to act like a juggernaut designed to absorb and dish out a lot of damage? Galaxy is mainly a flying sponge and should pretty much act like one.
If they make iconic ships good, fans and min maxers alike will buy them and be done with buying ships.
My thoughts exactly .
Thing is , you can make a ship good-but-not-great -- thus still give Cryptic the option to sell their 10% OP ships .
You can do this either with adding more Tac consoles (3 instead of 2) or by adding a Lt.Com Tac station instead of the Lt. .
It will still be considered not the best , but it will not be considered TRIBBLE .
Now I'm a team player . I do a lot of STF's and I used to PVP a decent amount .
Thus I have often found myself torn between being angry at a player who brings an inferior ship , because I totally understand the desire to play w/a certain ship or a certain role .
A lot of players don't how such tolerance .
I don't want to see hate for players (new and old) who'll show up in a D'Deridex .
That's easy enough to understand , right ?
As I said, double the amount of consoles for each ship, half the values on existing consoles (except for the crappy ones like +subsystem power). Impose increasing diminished returns for 3+ consoles of same type (logarithmic curve). Problem solved.
If they want DR on consoles, they don't need to double the number of console slots to do it. Also, half strength consoles plus DR would then make "device" type consoles overwhelmingly the best choice in general.
The bottom line is this: In this game, any ship which is designed purely to tank is not useful. You can give me a cruiser with a million hull and 10 engineering slots, and frankly it doesn't matter unless it does something else that makes it worth staying alive. There are basically only three ways in which ships are "active" in this game:
1) Do lots of damage directly
2) Do lots of space magic (science)
3) Deploy frigate caliber hangar pets.
If a ship has none of the above then it is fundamentally a bad ship.
On top of this you have the fundamental design of the Romulans which is to have low ship power levels and battle cloak, which implies coming out of cloak to do something, then getting back into cloak while waiting for the next opportunity. They are fundamentally not a "tanky" faction. A ship with high hull and tons of hull resists is dubious in general, but it's especially dubious for Romulans.
This thing is going to pop out of cloak and the reaction of any experienced player will be to ignore it if there are any other targets available. The reaction of NPCs is going to be to ignore it if anything else is attacking them, because anything else will do more damage.
Comments
But no matter what STO is still Escort-central, and has been for a long time now. Want to be a Rom doing an STF? You're not going to pick the Big D or the Scimitar. You're going to pick one of the high DPS escort-types that allow you to get it done quickly so you can get the time sensitive bonus item.
It's the same reason STFs are full of Tacs, Scis, and Engineers flying escorts in Elite STFs now. They don't pick those ships for the love. They pick em for the DPS.
Given that both the Fleet Excelsior and Fleet Assault Cruiser have four tac consoles this has to be a mistake on Cryptic's part. Talk about castrating a mammoth before its even had a chance to debut! :rolleyes:
Well the KDF gets both the Bortasqu and the Fleet Torhkat as tac heavy cruisers. The Scimitar could have 5 tac consoles like a Tac Bortasqu, and the Fleet D'Deridex could get 4 tac consoles more tac boffs like how the Vorcha gets when compared to its Fleet version. D'D and Vorcha are both from the same era and were comparable ships so there is no reason why their Fleet versions shouldn't also have similar firepower.
Except the D'Deridex isn't comparable to the Fleet Excelsior or the Fleet Assault Cruiser. It's comparable to the GALAXY. Ergo, it's going to suck. Seriously, they've said this plenty of times. Why did you think the D'Deridex was going to be a good ship? The Galaxy is a piece of $h!t and it's the template they're basing the D'Deridex on. If you want to succeed in STO, fly an Escort. That's clearly the design philosophy this game has followed for more than a year.
Decent DPS in an STF can also be done with a few of the DPS cruisers when set up correctly. I use my Bortasqu and Fleet Torkhat often in STFs and can keep up with escorts, often doing better then most of the pug escorts. I can do almost as well using a Fleet Regent also.
The D'Deridex could also do a respectable job in an STF if it is given a fleet version with 4 tac consoles and at least Lt Cmdr Tac at minimum.
It should also be comparable to the Vorcha, the KDF ship from the same era that it faced off with many times. The Galaxy should also be improved but thats a seperate issue.
DStahl has hinted that a Scimitar is coming. But he's also flat out said that it isn't going to be the Romulan Flagship. (The Odyssey and the Bort equivalent). So that means that there's yet ANOTHER ship also coming. That will be the Ody/Bort equivalent.
Not the D'Deridex. Not the Scimitar. Probably a Cryptic created design.
What Role-Playing?... I have not seen it. Skill is fine and well and it helps but all the skill in the world will never change a 22 into a Tank Gun.
Sadly it does not make up for the fact that besides Heals most Sci abilities are STILL brutally over compensated for by NPC and Player Ships with hardly any skill invested into their counters thus making them nearly useless.
Two things to that:
1) It should NOT be a Support Ship. It was CLEARLY a War ship in the Shows (War Bird, read: Battle Ship) and thus making it anything but a pretty fiercesome damage dealer (even if sluggish to turn, like say the Bortasqu' Tactical) would seem extremely contrary to the ship.
2) The term "Support Ship" in this game either refers to A) The Tal'Kyr or
Well they don't need to come up with a config that every one likes. They just need a config that *some one* likes.
I don't have a problem with the BoFF config even though it's very light on DPS, because at least there are engineering boff powers that do something other than add hull toughness.
Even 2 tac consoles is not necessarily a major problem. Some other good ships are weak on Tac consoles, like the VoQuv Mirror, or some science centric ship variants.
But 2 tac consoles and only 3 science consoles, and zero hangar bays? That's just bad. There's no role for a ship that can't generate threat, can't do damage, and doesn't have hangars or science powers (or both) to make up for it all. The fact that it's also a slow turning, high inertia space slug with a 4/4 config just makes it worse.
Look to one of the other ships for that. Or wait for the newer ships that come out after launch.
Pros
1) Its a big durable tank it can take alot of damage put 3x nuetronium XI or better and its hard to destroy...were not talking about the borg and how they make armour look like paper mache.
2) Its battle cloak enables it to turn really good couple that with evasive manuevers and attack pattern alpha or omega and i can make it spin 360 degrees without stopping.
3) Shield points are really good this adds to its being a big tank
Cons
1) 1 tac BO station and its only a centurion/ lieutenant
2) 2 tac console slots
3) 3 engi slots ....strange for a battles cruiser at tier 4
4) 3 aft guns like a galaxy
5) Turns like a bathtub thats bolted to the floor when not cloaked
6) Due to the lack of a second tac officer or atleast make the one there is a commander station and only 2 tac consoles leaves this a very under powered ship.
theres alot more but this is what im gonna post for now
But the D'deridex as it is its better suited to roleplay i wouldnt take this ship into a PvP since all i would be is a sitting duck.
Even claoking and decloaking for turn rate would only prolong your inevitable demise.
I know I did. Seeing those stats makes me sad and die a little inside. It's also not just the two tac console thing. The boff layout is also terrible. Combine the two and add the turn rate on top and you can basically just write a makro to activate abandon ship whenever it's off cooldown.
I mean it's all a question of trade-offs. But this ships gets nothing in return. We'll need half of the 5 eng consoles just to be able to switch from probes in KASE to a generator fast enough before the next waves of probes spawns.
So we deal no damage, only have two or three console slots left for actual survivability and not enough sci slots to make the enemies target us either. Not sure where we are supposed to slot universal consoles.
"Battle" Cloak is a joke if we don't deal any damage after decloaking. We don't even have a high enough tac slot to use BO3 for a big alpha strike.
And whoever said it's supposed to be a "support" ship, what is the basis for that? Did Cryptic say that? In the shows it was always alone or in a pack of other D'deridex. It didn't support anything. I won't even bother bringing up again that no one needs support in this game too if a Defiant can solo tank a Tac Cube fine alone since the people not getting it won't get it into their heads this time either.
This ship is just a design failure. There is no design philosophy behind it. They just look at the (TRIBBLE poor) number of combinations they have available to distribute 10 console and X boff slots and slap every combination to a random ship and call it a day.
This is the real problem behind so many issues in this game. Cryptic are terrible game designers. They are good at visually designing shiny things that people want (and picking things to implement that people want), but when it comes to actual gameplay, they have just no clue what they are doing. No design philosophy, no gameplay philosophy, just a mess of systems they made up 3 years ago for a game that had no content beyond shooting randomly generated critters in randomly generated star systems, they now struggle to shoehorn that system into a meaningful game. You might just as well call it and give up Cryptic.
Won't happen, not with me at least I won't be looking for a newer Romulan tactiical cruiser if it isn't a D'Deridex model. This is game breaking as far as I am concerned, a slap in the face on Romulan fans and I see no point in even making a Romulan with the D'D in its current state. Might as well just ignore release of Romulans for now for all I care unless news changes.
If we for example had 20 console slots total, with weaker consoles and proper diminishing returns - something like this would never happen.
Most ships would have same energy dmg potential, just some heavy tac console ships would have room for torpedo/mine/other tac consoles.
It is also result of "energy weapons are king" aproach, where you do not need torpedoes and everything you need is to energy weapons stack energy weapon consoles.
The final result is that everyone wants as much as possible number of tac consoles for energy consoles and everything else is considered TRIBBLE. Which in turns makes it really hard for Cryptic to introduce new ships as everyone and their mother expects 3-4 tac consoles, or make it 4-5 already.
The D'D should be comparable to a Vorcha, both ships from the same era and the main battleships of their empires at the time.
The fleet version of the D'D could be like the Fleet Torhkat, get 4 tac consoles and Lt Cmdr tac. Yes before you mention it, they should also make a Galaxy that is more upgraded in firepower since it was also a ship from the same era that was comparable in firepower. They can just make the Fleet Dreadnought with 4 tac console and Lt Cmdr Tac and give option to remove third nacelle to make it look like a Gal.
Then all us TNG fans can be happy and not just Klingon and Cardassian fans who already have their TNG ships with good stats.
it can not slot Attack Pattern Omega, that would require a Lt.Cmdr. Tac
diversity lies in how you use the slots.
how much diversity can you get with 2 slots?
//it baffles me how many players seem to be ok with it and still agree that it sucks just like the 2 year old Galaxy Class does.
(imho neither Ship is acceptable in the current state)
//few people that defend it as a support ship and are ok with it / try to find ways to make it usable
(best idea so far was to use sci consoles with plasma buff, but that pushes the ship into a very specific corner)
//lots of posts that just simply agree that 2 tac consoles are not enough
//few players who want Cryptic to fix the bigger problem instead the imbalance between TAC / SCI / ENG ships, i agree with this too, sadly the WIP solution didn't make it this season (the secondary deflector for SCI and Armor Slot for Tanks thing Geko talked about on Podcast UGC and Priority One) -> not happening yet, maybe something will happen next Season, but that Warbird needs to be a good Ship NOW, not in one or two seasons. (and even then, the Armor slot is the wrong direction, Tanks need more Pew, they are tanky enough that no one wants to shoot at them already.)
= mission accomplished, 11 page stinky thread about this issue that is what i call #appropriate feedback
Well the Romulans should have ships that are more eng or Sci heavy but why they pick the D'D of all model for the eng heavy one? Its not fair and dispapoints to many fans when they can just pick other models or make a new one for the eng heavy role. It also just doesn't fit with battlecloaking tactics. Romulans give up turn rate and power levels partially because of that battlecloak, it needs more tac for that sacrifice to be worthwhile. Whats the point in decloaking in front of someone just to tank them. The D'D decloaking in front of a ship is supposed to cause fear like on TV but will just get laughed at in its current state. You don't sneak up on someone and decloak on them to tank them.
Your D'D would have 4 tac consoles, in which you could slot 4 energy weapon consoles, and have only slighter lower dmg potential of ships with more tac consoles.
If they make iconic ships good, fans and min maxers alike will buy them and be done with buying ships.
If they make iconic ships ****, fans will buy them for being iconic, a lot of min maxers might still get them, and they still sell overpowered Cryptic originals to those on top.
It's all working as intended.
Iconic ships will stay **** and Cryptic originals will always be overpowered. That way they maximize their profits.
I get around to buying other ships eventually just to not get bored as I would do with Romulans. I want a capable D'D to buy first, but would also buy z-store/fleet versions of a few others like the Mogai and T'varo. However the lack of a capable D'D would be so disappointing I might not be even interested in making a Romulan in the first place.
That plan to give the D'D bad stats to get me to buy other ships won't work if I have no Romulan to buy them for. Others should do the same I think, if enough of us wait for a capable D'D to be released before making a Romulan they might have to do it.
Also in the end its not about values here and there. Its about cryptic making the most iconic ships from the shows as worse as they can probably to ensure that we not all use this one ship. Its the same with the galaxy and even the dread. The kumari shows us how to male a nice special cannon and the dreads spinal lance should have been exactly like that. But it isnt. What they want is us going for escorts while they slightly increase the effectiveness of those ships ober time giving them more here more there and making us buy every last one of them.
Sometimes cryptic feels more like game-miners. They dont design for something they just try to mine as much money from this game as they can. Gecko recently said that basically that they try to find out want we want and how much they can charge us for it.
They have no final goal no real vision of the game it seems. They just do whatever they think is most profitable. Its really sad. A german game company made a really great game great graphics great gameplay great everything.. Except that the went bankrupt because they managed to not make it sell. All cryptic does is sell sell sell. I really wonder why we cant have both .. A good game design and enough profits to keep the game going.
Ship #1
X, X, X
X
X, X, X, X
X, X
X, X
4 Tac / 4 Eng / 2 Sci
Ship #2
X, X
X
X, X, X, X
X, X, X
X, X
2 Tac / 5 Eng / 3 Sci
Ship #3
X, X
X
X, X
X, X, X, X
X, X, X
3 Tac / 2 Eng / 5 Sci
So to an extent, it sounds like folks looking at those would suspect that Ship #1 is closest to how they would envision the Fleet D'Deridex.
They'd be wrong.
Ship #1 = Fleet Ha'apax
Ship #2 = Fleet D'Deridex
Ship #3 = Fleet Ha'apax Refit (Haakona Refit)
To be honest, all three seem a wee bit off - of course, the way in which they seem off to me isn't going to help the folks that want more of a Tor'Kaht D'Deridex than a Negh'Var D'Deridex...but still:
Fleet D'Deridex
X, X
X
X, X, X, X
X, X
X, X, X
3 Tac / 4 Eng / 3 Sci
Fleet Ha'apax (Sci)
X, X
X, X, X, X
X, X, X
X, X, X
2 Tac / 4 Eng / 4 Sci
Fleet Ha'apax (Tac)
X, X, X
X, X, X
X, X, X, X
X, X
4 Tac / 4 Eng / 2 Sci
It's my humble belief, that the 5 Sci Console vessel should be the Romulan Science Vessel that's not going to be there at the release of LoR. That given the Escort/Support Vessels involved with the four Ha'apax ships - that they should be split more Tac/Sci than Eng/Sci. Remember, they're Advanced Warbirds...not necessarily Warbird Battle Cruisers, eh?
Course, it's unlikely that the Ha'apax boats would get a fixed layout version of the Fleet Norgh's layout, eh? Probably would have been more realistic to make the second LCdr a Lt and add in an En Uni.
the ships with 5 consoles in 1 type should be solly on the ha'apax variants, leave the d'deridex out of that nonsense.
all 3 of those ship setups are pretty nice, but they arent quite in the right place.
ship 1 should be the d'deridex, ship 2 the ha'apax, and ship 3 the advanced ha'apax.
the dederidex has a battle cruiser pedigree in canon, that station and console setup suits it. similarity to the galaxy forced upon it is wrong. because they got the galaxy in game wrong, completely wrong. so getting the d'deridex wrong for consistency i can not abide, break that cycle here. hopefully soon the galaxy will be revisited and some positive change will happen for it. in the mean time, get the dederidex right.
oh, and once again thers that nagging turn rate issue i keep talking about. lets have a look at both the dederidex and ha'apax shall we?
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578988199813813404/FF58F37D158C7811D7A2E2F6F03859A553496C68/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578988199813814884/EE0A8193AE6CECD6DB39CF0573BF746506393A33/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578988199813818311/D16B42EDC523FE2E95EED7313CD24941072DE7A7/
that center section of the ha'apax alone has at least twice the volume of a d'deridex, yet they both turn at 5. the d'deridex, just compared to its big brother, and their movement sample here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOXT22Ghouw&t=1m48s shows that it deserves more. i dunno, about 9 turn or so? same as the negvar gets? it would be the same as the eventual regent setup c store negvar gecko has talked about, thats a little parity i would certainly like to see.
AWESOME!
TRIBBLE your bloody tac console's!!!
I love that boff layout and what would ido with 5 tac consoles anway. there is so much CHEESE in console form i wanna put on this hunk that tac consoles are the least of my priorities....
What is important is the boff seating, and its GOOD.
Traits - Accurate, Astrophysicist, Efficient Captain, Elusive, Techie, Warp Theorist, Crippling Fire, Last Ditch Effort, random lolground trait
Reputation
New Rom - Precision, Emergency Secondary Shielding, Quantum Singularity Manipuation
Omega - Omega Weapon Training, Superior Shield Repair
Nukara - Enhanced Shield Penetration, Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense, Refracting Tetryon Cascade
TT1, BO2
FAW1
EPtW1, RSP1, EWP1, DEM3
EPtS1, AtS1
PH1, HE2, TSS3
BOFFs - 3x DCE(EPt), SE(DEM), MAS(EWP)
Deflector - MACO Mk XII/Nukara Mk XII (depending on if you're fighting Tholians)
Impulse - Nukara Mk XII
Singularity - Hyper Injection Mk X [PG][OLoad] (whatever better version is available)
Shields - MACO Mk XII
Weapons
Fore - Experimental Beam Array, 3x Romulan Array Mk XII [CrtH]x2
Aft - Hyper-Plasma Torpedo, Cutting Beam, 2x Romulan Array Mk XII [CrtH]x2
Consoles
Tac - 2x Plasma Infuser Mk XII
Eng - Borg, 0Point, Nukara, Neut Mk XII
Sci - 2x Rom Emitter Array Mk XII [Pla], Tachyo
Devices - RMC, SFM, Aux Batt, Eng Batt
Isn't the D'deridex and on a related Galaxy meant to act and fly like space whales? The only difference is that unlike the Galaxy, the D'Deridex is meant to act like a juggernaut designed to absorb and dish out a lot of damage? Galaxy is mainly a flying sponge and should pretty much act like one.
What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
My thoughts exactly .
Thing is , you can make a ship good-but-not-great -- thus still give Cryptic the option to sell their 10% OP ships .
You can do this either with adding more Tac consoles (3 instead of 2) or by adding a Lt.Com Tac station instead of the Lt. .
It will still be considered not the best , but it will not be considered TRIBBLE .
Now I'm a team player . I do a lot of STF's and I used to PVP a decent amount .
Thus I have often found myself torn between being angry at a player who brings an inferior ship , because I totally understand the desire to play w/a certain ship or a certain role .
A lot of players don't how such tolerance .
I don't want to see hate for players (new and old) who'll show up in a D'Deridex .
That's easy enough to understand , right ?
That's why I gave up on the Ngh'Var back in the day (before Fleet variations) , because I felt that I did just that .
If they want DR on consoles, they don't need to double the number of console slots to do it. Also, half strength consoles plus DR would then make "device" type consoles overwhelmingly the best choice in general.
The bottom line is this: In this game, any ship which is designed purely to tank is not useful. You can give me a cruiser with a million hull and 10 engineering slots, and frankly it doesn't matter unless it does something else that makes it worth staying alive. There are basically only three ways in which ships are "active" in this game:
1) Do lots of damage directly
2) Do lots of space magic (science)
3) Deploy frigate caliber hangar pets.
If a ship has none of the above then it is fundamentally a bad ship.
On top of this you have the fundamental design of the Romulans which is to have low ship power levels and battle cloak, which implies coming out of cloak to do something, then getting back into cloak while waiting for the next opportunity. They are fundamentally not a "tanky" faction. A ship with high hull and tons of hull resists is dubious in general, but it's especially dubious for Romulans.
This thing is going to pop out of cloak and the reaction of any experienced player will be to ignore it if there are any other targets available. The reaction of NPCs is going to be to ignore it if anything else is attacking them, because anything else will do more damage.