It has 3 science console slots, why not slot embassy +plasma damage consoles and run all plasma?
ok... thinking about that for a minute...
= forced into Plasma damage type (i'd rather take disruptors personally), they made those SCI consoles so you can counter the plasma resistance that most of the playerbase has by default thx to STF Sets that everybody is using. That may help in a PvE setting to produce more DPS, but in PvP i'm not so sure...
= also you need a fleet = need a fleet with Embassy stuff unlocked, not everybody is in a fleet so this is rather restricted / hard to get stuff for a big part of the Playerbase. (i can, but it's not all about me :P )
= Rom Rep Tier 5 required to get halfway decent Plasma Weaponry, that is a lot of Eppoh Tagging before you can start with STFs. (or Advanced Fleet Weapons, which require fleet stuff again to be available)
If the logic behind giving the D'Deridex this poor boff and console layout was to get us to try other ships it won't work, at least not with me. The D'D would be my main reason to want to play a Romulan so if it doesn't have a version with more tactical boff and console layout I will hold off on making a Romulan until there is one.
Without a more capable D'Deridex, this Romulan faction is a fake.
So? A lot of ships force you into roles or if you want to do higher damage you are forced to use certain equipment and weapon types.
Ultimately if you WANT to do the high damage levels you will HAVE to use certain energy types. You will HAVE to do the rep to keep up with other good players in PvP. Polaron if you get the mk XII Jem Hadar space set is very nice and with the 2 piece bonus is another alternative but I would still say plasma is a better choice.
As for PvP, well it looks more like a support ship to me, play to your strengths, which would be support rather than trying to fulfill a role which is better done in an escort type (or layout) ship.
Seems there's 2 debates going on here though.
The ones saying that in canon it's a more tactical orientated ship which would require a complete redesign of boff slots as well as consoles. This is saying the D'Deridex should not be a support ship which they may have a point on.
Then the others that are calling for more than 2 tactical slots which is what the OP was talking about. There are many ships with only 2 tactical slots and they tend to be support ships, this is clearly designed as a support ship and damage should be secondary to the role as support.
Then the others that are calling for more than 2 tactical slots which is what the OP was talking about. There are many ships with only 2 tactical slots and they tend to be support ships, this is clearly designed as a support ship and damage should be secondary to the role as support.
Support roles (control, heal or tank) are irrelevant, they have no purpose or meaning in end game PvE. If they had then the debate would be entirely different, and not so focused on the DPS capabilities of new ships.
And damn it, fix my Intrepid-R so it is tac-worthy aswell! All ships must be tac heavy DPS ships! There is no room for engineer/science support crafts!
I think you'll find bolding, underlining and capitalizing the article in your sentence doesn't disprove the evidence of our eyes. You very much can make THE Warbird a support craft.
Far be it for me to argue against fan service as a valid reason for doing something, and I'm being perfectly sincere when I say that. I'm one of the only people who will regularly say, "yes, they should do it, it will make them large sums of money and make fans happy." You can check my contributions to Fed-Carrier debates for confirmation.
But I'd rather see this issue resolved by overall buffing of science and engineering. Close your eyes and imagine an STO where sneaky science based powers are finesse requiring balance and counter to pure DPS. Now open your eyes again so you can read the rest of my post. Actually, probably should just imagine a world where Engineering powers aren't looked at as something unfortunate that you've found on the bottom of your shoe with your eyes open. Suddenly the Fleet D'Deridex build they have becomes a hard to kill TRIBBLE kicker for the thinking captain with limited mileage for the fly and shoot pew-pewer.
So Cryptic, keep the Fleet D'Deridex as is, let people laugh at it, and get to work on fixing science and engineering powers. I'm willing to wait for the worm to turn.
You quoted me on the +plasma damage science consoles but do not care to address the current changes to the emergency to powers.
The Fleet D'Deridex will be able to maintain tankiness while also keeping up emergency power to weapons 3 which will not just allow it to keep a good damage buff going (depending on how it's calculated this could be equal to 1 or 2 tactical consoles maybe more) but it will keep weapon power high which is a much bigger factor in weapon damage.
It also has a universal Lt position which while I will argue can give you yet another ensign tactical slot the ship itself lends itself to beams which are lower teir tactical powers. I might say that universal Lt and ensign might be better considering the flexability it would give.
Which leads me back to the 2 debates going on. This is about the Fleet ship having 2 tactical consoles and only 2 tactical consoles regardless of how you think the ship should perform.
Why do people want EVERY ship to have high DPS? That isn't every ship's role. And yes, high DPS IS a role, just like tanking and healing.
If low-DPS ships are underperforming, we shouldn't look to getting their DPS higher, we should encourage the devs to make their specializations worthwhile. Those 5 eng consoles? Yeah, those need to have the same importance as 5 tac consoles do on tac ships.
2 tactical consoles is perfectly acceptable for this ship. If you don't want to fly a big, slow turning, support ship, fly one of the other ships that the Romulan navy has available.
And one of the greatest problems: as a fed, even as a kling you have a great number of ships you can choose from to avoid crappy designed ships, but as a romulan?
As a Romulan, you don't have a problem at all. You can choose the one of YOUR Romulan ships at that tier. OR one of your allied ships at that tier. Meaning you have the DD OR either whatever the KDF or the Feds were offering. You want to fly a damage dealing nimble ship at that level? Fly a defiant. Because you can.
As a Romulan, you don't have a problem at all. You can choose the one of YOUR Romulan ships at that tier. OR one of your allied ships at that tier. Meaning you have the DD OR either whatever the KDF or the Feds were offering. You want to fly a damage dealing nimble ship at that level? Fly a defiant. Because you can.
It's true that you can choose either the D'deridex or an allied ship at the first tier it appears in, but no one really cares about leveling tiers.
It's also true that you can choose the D'deridex or one of the other Romulan vessels at T5.
What's not true is that you can select an allied ship at T5. One of the dev blogs or posts (I can't recall which) explicitly called out that Romulans will not be able to use the T5 ships of their allied faction - only T5 Romulan ships. They can use all other tiers of allied ships, but no T5. I don't have a link handy, but I'm sure that I can fish one up if you need proof of this.
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Joined January 2010.
Looks to me like players are simply unwilling to give up their precious DPS to fly an iconic hull. It says in the dev blog that it is comparable to the Galaxy class ship, and their are more suitable choices of vessel if you want to shoot things. I don't see the problem.
Because Cryptic designs their games to reward high DPS. It's the only way to rack up a high score in most aspects of the game that track performance - the recent Crystalline Entity revival was an attempt by them to smooth some of that out, but the results seem to have been... mixed, at best. Regardless, having high DPS is a huge component of being rewarded in this game. Thus, people want their ships to be able to deal damage.
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Joined January 2010.
Aux2batt is getting nerfed anyway, they're re-introducing the shared cooldown for aux2batt with EPTx abilities. It's going to kill some of my setups but I can understand why they've done it, aux2batt setups are stupidly powerful as it stands :P
That change got killed a few days ago. EPtX is now retaining the cooldown structure of holodeck, and the buffs to EPtW, EPtA, and EPtE are going ahead as they were on tribble. So, for example, EPtW will be giving a damage bonus for the full 30s duration, and will be triggering the 15s CD on non-EPtW EP powers.
EPtX is getting buffed across the board, and Aux2Batt (and Dragon, and 3x DCE DOff builds) with it.
That may be true in Star Trek, but Star Trek Online has it's own level of Power Creep that is directly connected to the release date of any Ship, later released Ships are better than former released Ships, even if it is an older Ship in Star Trek.
The Galaxy Class is 2-3 years old and not competitive anymore at all (when was the last time you've seen one in PvP (and kill anything?)? or even hovering over ESD?...), adding a new Ship to mirror this one will only make that new ship outdated directly at launch.
You really can't blame the Galaxy-R sucking on power creep and then in the same breath complain that the D'deridex is too similar to it. The ship design space that is high Eng, high Sci just isn't that good, and that's the problem at hand. Regardless of when they come out, high Eng, high Sci ships are bad (Nebula is a newer example - much newer than the Galaxy-R, still high Eng and Sci, still terrible).
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Joined January 2010.
Not really, D'Deridex is Galaxy faction mirror, much like Negh'Var.... for Odyssey there is that other Hapax or whatever ship.
If the D'Deridex more like the Neg'var it would at least be useful. I expected that to be more the case than having it be like the Galaxy. What a waste of a ship the D'Deridex is.
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Looks to me like players are simply unwilling to give up their precious DPS to fly an iconic hull. It says in the dev blog that it is comparable to the Galaxy class ship, and their are more suitable choices of vessel if you want to shoot things. I don't see the problem.
The problem is that "Iconic hull" is not supposed to be laid out like the Galaxy. It has a different philosophy behind it's design and is a DPS heavy ambush ship. The fact that even the STO version of the Galaxy is designed incorrectly highlights the fact that the D'Deridex is getting the short end of the stick.
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Looks to me like players are simply unwilling to give up their precious DPS to fly an iconic hull. It says in the dev blog that it is comparable to the Galaxy class ship, and their are more suitable choices of vessel if you want to shoot things. I don't see the problem.
If the game wasn't 98% about shooting things then maybe this comment would have some weight.
The problem is that "Iconic hull" is not supposed to be laid out like the Galaxy. It has a different philosophy behind it's design and is a DPS heavy ambush ship. The fact that even the STO version of the Galaxy is designed incorrectly highlights the fact that the D'Deridex is getting the short end of the stick.
I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere that the D'Deridex is supposed to be a 'high DPS ambush ship'. I would argue the Mogai or one of the smaller warbirds are far more suited to that role.
If the game wasn't 98% about shooting things then maybe this comment would have some weight.
Depends on the perspective.
I wouldn't say Foundry content is DPS dependent for example. Or PvP to a degree where tanks and healers arguably have more use. Also the one plus point of the reputation systems is that you don't need high DPS to get any endgame goodies. My damage is negligible at best but I've had plenty of success with it.
Having only 2 tac consoles isn't the real problem Imo. The real issue is having 5 engineer consoles and only 2 tac consoles. The only decent engineer console is neutronium, and maybe rcs consoles with the new changes, but without any tac consoles, all the tanking or turning in the world don't matter much.
Both players and npcs will ignore a ship with such poor firepower, so without heavy science and/or hangar bays it is useless. Throw in the fact that romulan ships are crippled in ship power levels and thid thing is built to be a mega beam boat and the failure is complete.
I dont care how thick the hull or shields are if all it can do is float like a giant stealthy TRIBBLE.
All end game content only requires that every member on the team be able to put out 3-4k dps. Escorts can snore out 2-3 times that easily. Most ships are capable of that, the fleet D'Dedrix should easily hit 5k dps without the need for ultra rare gear only accessable from starbases and that's with a build focused on tanking.
Hell I could get a galaxy to do 5k...ya know I might just do that as most people here seem to think it's worse than the fleet d'deridex.
Comments
ok... thinking about that for a minute...
= forced into Plasma damage type (i'd rather take disruptors personally), they made those SCI consoles so you can counter the plasma resistance that most of the playerbase has by default thx to STF Sets that everybody is using. That may help in a PvE setting to produce more DPS, but in PvP i'm not so sure...
= also you need a fleet = need a fleet with Embassy stuff unlocked, not everybody is in a fleet so this is rather restricted / hard to get stuff for a big part of the Playerbase. (i can, but it's not all about me :P )
= Rom Rep Tier 5 required to get halfway decent Plasma Weaponry, that is a lot of Eppoh Tagging before you can start with STFs. (or Advanced Fleet Weapons, which require fleet stuff again to be available)
Without a more capable D'Deridex, this Romulan faction is a fake.
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Ultimately if you WANT to do the high damage levels you will HAVE to use certain energy types. You will HAVE to do the rep to keep up with other good players in PvP. Polaron if you get the mk XII Jem Hadar space set is very nice and with the 2 piece bonus is another alternative but I would still say plasma is a better choice.
As for PvP, well it looks more like a support ship to me, play to your strengths, which would be support rather than trying to fulfill a role which is better done in an escort type (or layout) ship.
Seems there's 2 debates going on here though.
The ones saying that in canon it's a more tactical orientated ship which would require a complete redesign of boff slots as well as consoles. This is saying the D'Deridex should not be a support ship which they may have a point on.
Then the others that are calling for more than 2 tactical slots which is what the OP was talking about. There are many ships with only 2 tactical slots and they tend to be support ships, this is clearly designed as a support ship and damage should be secondary to the role as support.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Support roles (control, heal or tank) are irrelevant, they have no purpose or meaning in end game PvE. If they had then the debate would be entirely different, and not so focused on the DPS capabilities of new ships.
that is what it boils down to.
And it is THE Warbird (not just A Warbird), a Battle Cruiser... and you are calling it a SUPPORT Ship?
...something is very wrong here lol
http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/14/13251/Romulan_Artillery_Vessel.jpg
or that
http://www.animatedpictures.de/gallery/romulan_t10_beauty_new2.jpg
a SUPPORT craft
but not THE one and only WARBIRD
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0aGGYTJxkYs/TRo8HM8ulWI/AAAAAAAAAio/Y94ubUWvBok/s1600/st-tng-01x26-neutral-zone.jpg
Far be it for me to argue against fan service as a valid reason for doing something, and I'm being perfectly sincere when I say that. I'm one of the only people who will regularly say, "yes, they should do it, it will make them large sums of money and make fans happy." You can check my contributions to Fed-Carrier debates for confirmation.
But I'd rather see this issue resolved by overall buffing of science and engineering. Close your eyes and imagine an STO where sneaky science based powers are finesse requiring balance and counter to pure DPS. Now open your eyes again so you can read the rest of my post. Actually, probably should just imagine a world where Engineering powers aren't looked at as something unfortunate that you've found on the bottom of your shoe with your eyes open. Suddenly the Fleet D'Deridex build they have becomes a hard to kill TRIBBLE kicker for the thinking captain with limited mileage for the fly and shoot pew-pewer.
So Cryptic, keep the Fleet D'Deridex as is, let people laugh at it, and get to work on fixing science and engineering powers. I'm willing to wait for the worm to turn.
i made my point
The Fleet D'Deridex will be able to maintain tankiness while also keeping up emergency power to weapons 3 which will not just allow it to keep a good damage buff going (depending on how it's calculated this could be equal to 1 or 2 tactical consoles maybe more) but it will keep weapon power high which is a much bigger factor in weapon damage.
It also has a universal Lt position which while I will argue can give you yet another ensign tactical slot the ship itself lends itself to beams which are lower teir tactical powers. I might say that universal Lt and ensign might be better considering the flexability it would give.
Which leads me back to the 2 debates going on. This is about the Fleet ship having 2 tactical consoles and only 2 tactical consoles regardless of how you think the ship should perform.
If you want to debate whether it should fulfill the role it's clearly been designed for by Cryptic and other troubles regarding canon and layout then go to this thread: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=625191
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
As long as you dont want to blow things up then you are correct.
If low-DPS ships are underperforming, we shouldn't look to getting their DPS higher, we should encourage the devs to make their specializations worthwhile. Those 5 eng consoles? Yeah, those need to have the same importance as 5 tac consoles do on tac ships.
Just IMO.
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2 tactical consoles is perfectly acceptable for this ship. If you don't want to fly a big, slow turning, support ship, fly one of the other ships that the Romulan navy has available.
The OP said he was talking more about PvP than PvE.
That's unlikely. Your setup has 5 engi slots, 4 tac slots and 2 science slots.
As a Romulan, you don't have a problem at all. You can choose the one of YOUR Romulan ships at that tier. OR one of your allied ships at that tier. Meaning you have the DD OR either whatever the KDF or the Feds were offering. You want to fly a damage dealing nimble ship at that level? Fly a defiant. Because you can.
That looks like hyperbole but I think it's not.
Consoles do not define the ability "to blow things up" and that's why two Tac consoles are okay.
If anyone does not like it, then ... too bad?
Besides, if conventional wisdom around here says this game is Escorts Online, then what's the big deal?
It's true that you can choose either the D'deridex or an allied ship at the first tier it appears in, but no one really cares about leveling tiers.
It's also true that you can choose the D'deridex or one of the other Romulan vessels at T5.
What's not true is that you can select an allied ship at T5. One of the dev blogs or posts (I can't recall which) explicitly called out that Romulans will not be able to use the T5 ships of their allied faction - only T5 Romulan ships. They can use all other tiers of allied ships, but no T5. I don't have a link handy, but I'm sure that I can fish one up if you need proof of this.
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
Because Cryptic designs their games to reward high DPS. It's the only way to rack up a high score in most aspects of the game that track performance - the recent Crystalline Entity revival was an attempt by them to smooth some of that out, but the results seem to have been... mixed, at best. Regardless, having high DPS is a huge component of being rewarded in this game. Thus, people want their ships to be able to deal damage.
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
That change got killed a few days ago. EPtX is now retaining the cooldown structure of holodeck, and the buffs to EPtW, EPtA, and EPtE are going ahead as they were on tribble. So, for example, EPtW will be giving a damage bonus for the full 30s duration, and will be triggering the 15s CD on non-EPtW EP powers.
EPtX is getting buffed across the board, and Aux2Batt (and Dragon, and 3x DCE DOff builds) with it.
You really can't blame the Galaxy-R sucking on power creep and then in the same breath complain that the D'deridex is too similar to it. The ship design space that is high Eng, high Sci just isn't that good, and that's the problem at hand. Regardless of when they come out, high Eng, high Sci ships are bad (Nebula is a newer example - much newer than the Galaxy-R, still high Eng and Sci, still terrible).
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
If the D'Deridex more like the Neg'var it would at least be useful. I expected that to be more the case than having it be like the Galaxy. What a waste of a ship the D'Deridex is.
Help rebuild the Romulan Star Empire to glory. Click the banner to join today.
The problem is that "Iconic hull" is not supposed to be laid out like the Galaxy. It has a different philosophy behind it's design and is a DPS heavy ambush ship. The fact that even the STO version of the Galaxy is designed incorrectly highlights the fact that the D'Deridex is getting the short end of the stick.
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If the game wasn't 98% about shooting things then maybe this comment would have some weight.
I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere that the D'Deridex is supposed to be a 'high DPS ambush ship'. I would argue the Mogai or one of the smaller warbirds are far more suited to that role.
Depends on the perspective.
I wouldn't say Foundry content is DPS dependent for example. Or PvP to a degree where tanks and healers arguably have more use. Also the one plus point of the reputation systems is that you don't need high DPS to get any endgame goodies. My damage is negligible at best but I've had plenty of success with it.
Both players and npcs will ignore a ship with such poor firepower, so without heavy science and/or hangar bays it is useless. Throw in the fact that romulan ships are crippled in ship power levels and thid thing is built to be a mega beam boat and the failure is complete.
I dont care how thick the hull or shields are if all it can do is float like a giant stealthy TRIBBLE.
Y'see, that doesn't work as a sarcastic remark when it's bordering on being true.
All end game content only requires that every member on the team be able to put out 3-4k dps. Escorts can snore out 2-3 times that easily. Most ships are capable of that, the fleet D'Dedrix should easily hit 5k dps without the need for ultra rare gear only accessable from starbases and that's with a build focused on tanking.
Hell I could get a galaxy to do 5k...ya know I might just do that as most people here seem to think it's worse than the fleet d'deridex.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.