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Fleet Holding Costs -- full details on how much it costs to finish
phyrexianhero
Member Posts: 768 Arc User
Hi everyone,
Background
There's a lot of information that Cryptic does not release (the initial dilithium conversion formula, STF currency conversion formula, lock box ship chances of winning, number of active accounts, etc.). When possible, I try to track it down and release it as a service to the community.
The purpose of this thread is to give people an idea of the costs the fleet holdings (currently just starbase and embassy, and a third holding in development that will release after May 21). It was revealed in January that there are some 16,500 fleets in service and many more being made each day at Earth Spacedock and Qo'noS. A lot of these people making fleets want an active fleet with maxed out holdings, but are totally unaware of the challenges involved -- leading to a lot of people with low tier bases, single digit rosters, and bitter disappointment as well as a stubbornness to merge resources with other fleets in the same situation because they feel they have invested too much already.
My Recommendations
This issue is especially relevant since the May expansion Legacy of Romulus will make Romulans choose to align with the Federation or Klingons and use their bases. Anyone who wants to form a pure Romulan fleet will have to hope everyone picks the same allegiance (which cannot be changed) or make yet two more fleets. My suggestion would be for small Fed and KDF fleets to merge their resources now, and let the lower tier bases be given or sold to Romulan-focused fleets so they at least have a head-start on that.
The Expenses Involved
Now, as for the costs involved. I set out first to look at the absolute minimum a fleet would need to pay in order to maximize their fleet starbase and embassy, using projects geared towards getting the most XP for the least amount of a variety of resources (whether it be fleet marks, dilithium, duty officers, energy credits, etc.). Most of these are mutually exclusive (dilithium-rich projects require few duty officers and vice versa). Upgrade costs are the same no matter what. For convenience and to provide a more realistic idea of typical costs at this page that gives a breakdown by tier and using which projects to calculate the various costs among the currencies.
All values below before discounts applied from advancing the Dilithium Mine holding
The minimum amount to complete the fleet starbase:
The minimum amount to complete the fleet embassy:
The minimum amount to complete the fleet dilithium mine:
Combined this would add up to:
From actual experience, the very first embassies were completed in 3 months and starbases in 10 months.
If you wanted to minimize fleet marks to 1,232,930 you'd have to pay an extra:
If you wanted to minimize dilithium to 34,026,250 (plus 4,000,000 and counting for limited time projects) you'd have to pay an extra:
If you wanted to minimize energy credits to 718,416,750 (and I'd suggest you use a Ferengi character, a Tuffli freighter, and get access to the embassy commodity console for discounts off this base cost) you'd have to pay an extra:
If you wanted to minimize expertise (perhaps because you're trying to solo the base) to 111,420,000 you'd have to pay an extra:
Recent Developments on Fleet Holding Costs
Priority One podcast interviewed executive producer Dan Stahl on April 4, 2013 and he indicated that costs were being re-evaluated and may be going down in the near future. Here is the following transcript, taken from 46:55-47:56:
In June it was revealed that each tier of the Dilithium Mine will have a total discount of 4, 9, and 15 percent on all fleet holdings. The mine will reduce dilithium inputs, trade will reduce items (commodities, doffs, consumables, etc.), and development will reduce fleet marks. I was interviewed on Priority One episode #132 to discuss my opinions and offer analysis.
Thanks and For More Information
Thanks to everyone who helped get data on the starbase project, embassy project, and dilithium mine project costs. We all knew it was expensive, but we never knew truly how expensive it was when we started. Hopefully this information will allow current and future fleets to use this knowledge in a way that is helpful for everyone involved.
Background
There's a lot of information that Cryptic does not release (the initial dilithium conversion formula, STF currency conversion formula, lock box ship chances of winning, number of active accounts, etc.). When possible, I try to track it down and release it as a service to the community.
The purpose of this thread is to give people an idea of the costs the fleet holdings (currently just starbase and embassy, and a third holding in development that will release after May 21). It was revealed in January that there are some 16,500 fleets in service and many more being made each day at Earth Spacedock and Qo'noS. A lot of these people making fleets want an active fleet with maxed out holdings, but are totally unaware of the challenges involved -- leading to a lot of people with low tier bases, single digit rosters, and bitter disappointment as well as a stubbornness to merge resources with other fleets in the same situation because they feel they have invested too much already.
My Recommendations
This issue is especially relevant since the May expansion Legacy of Romulus will make Romulans choose to align with the Federation or Klingons and use their bases. Anyone who wants to form a pure Romulan fleet will have to hope everyone picks the same allegiance (which cannot be changed) or make yet two more fleets. My suggestion would be for small Fed and KDF fleets to merge their resources now, and let the lower tier bases be given or sold to Romulan-focused fleets so they at least have a head-start on that.
The Expenses Involved
Now, as for the costs involved. I set out first to look at the absolute minimum a fleet would need to pay in order to maximize their fleet starbase and embassy, using projects geared towards getting the most XP for the least amount of a variety of resources (whether it be fleet marks, dilithium, duty officers, energy credits, etc.). Most of these are mutually exclusive (dilithium-rich projects require few duty officers and vice versa). Upgrade costs are the same no matter what. For convenience and to provide a more realistic idea of typical costs at this page that gives a breakdown by tier and using which projects to calculate the various costs among the currencies.
All values below before discounts applied from advancing the Dilithium Mine holding
The minimum amount to complete the fleet starbase:
- 907,140 fleet marks
- 20,535,750 dilithium (plus 2,800,000 for limited time projects)
- 14,503 duty officers
- 459,352,750 energy credits (using base costs for commodities)
- 52,080,000 expertise
- 112,500 data samples
- 955 particle traces
- 165 bridge officer candidates
The minimum amount to complete the fleet embassy:
- 146,380 fleet marks
- 8,544,000 dilithium (plus 1,400,000 for limited time projects)
- 3,640 duty officers
- 126,698,000 energy credits
- 29,810,000 expertise
- 75 particle traces
- 5,528 embassy provisions
The minimum amount to complete the fleet dilithium mine:
- 179,410 fleet marks
- 4,946,500 dilithium (plus 1,600,000 for limited time projects)
- 5,730 duty officers
- 133,366,000 energy credits
- 29,530,000 expertise
- 75 particle traces
- 17,627 dilithium mine provisions
Combined this would add up to:
- 1,232,930 fleet marks
- 34,026,250 dilithium (plus 5,800,000 for limited time projects)
- 23,873 duty officers
- 718,416,750 energy credits
- 111,420,000 expertise
- 112,500 data samples
- 1,105 particle traces
- 165 bridge officer candidates
- 5,528 embassy provisions
- 17,627 dilithium mine provisions
From actual experience, the very first embassies were completed in 3 months and starbases in 10 months.
If you wanted to minimize fleet marks to 1,232,930 you'd have to pay an extra:
- 21,317 duty officers (starbase), 1,600 duty officers (embassy), 3,175 duty officers (dilithium mine)
- 211,047,750 energy credits (starbase), 3,023,000 energy credits (embassy), 3,832,000 energy credits (dilithium mine)
If you wanted to minimize dilithium to 34,026,250 (plus 4,000,000 and counting for limited time projects) you'd have to pay an extra:
- 21,317 duty officers (starbase), 1,600 duty officers (embassy), 3,175 duty officers (dilithium mine)
- 211,047,750 energy credits (starbase) and 3,012,000 energy credits (embassy), 3,832,000 energy credits (dilithium mine)
- 3,240,000 expertise (embassy), 3,240,000 expertise (dilithium mine)
If you wanted to minimize energy credits to 718,416,750 (and I'd suggest you use a Ferengi character, a Tuffli freighter, and get access to the embassy commodity console for discounts off this base cost) you'd have to pay an extra:
- 417,000 fleet marks (starbase), 4,620 fleet marks (embassy), 4,620 fleet marks (dilithium mine)
- 63,440,000 dilithium (starbase), 500,000 dilithium (embassy), 500,000 dilithium (dilithium mine)
- 35,453 duty officers (starbase), 2,220 duty officers (embassy), 2,195 duty officers (dilithium mine)
- 37,460,000 expertise (starbase), 3,460,000 expertise (embassy), 3,460,000 expertise (dilithium mine)
If you wanted to minimize expertise (perhaps because you're trying to solo the base) to 111,420,000 you'd have to pay an extra:
- 417,000 fleet marks (starbase), 9,054,820 fleet marks (embassy), 76,020 fleet marks (dilithium mine)
- 500,000 dilithium (embassy), 5,852,000 dilithium (dilithium mine)
- 35,453 duty offficers (starbase), 6,450 duty officers (embassy), 17,975 duty officers (dilithium mine)
- 211,047,750 energy credits (starbase), 24,452,000 energy credits (embassy), 104,732,000 energy credits (dilithium mine)
Recent Developments on Fleet Holding Costs
Priority One podcast interviewed executive producer Dan Stahl on April 4, 2013 and he indicated that costs were being re-evaluated and may be going down in the near future. Here is the following transcript, taken from 46:55-47:56:
Priority One: You hinted a little bit that there might be some help for small fleets and Azurianstar submitted a question. Can you give us any details on how that's going to be a little different for small fleets on starbase projects?
DStahl: Yeah, we're crunching the numbers right now to figure out how much we can reduce costs on projects across the board. So, that's really what we're going to try to do. We're just going to flat out make it easier. <laughs> And so we...
Priority One: I'm sorry, can you make that answer a little more complicated for me? That wasn't complicated enough. We're going to need some more hedging. You're just going to drop prices?
DStahl: We're just going to drop prices. At least that's what I want to do. I've asked the systems team to do it and really I'm just waiting for their proposal to come back and say okay here's what we're going to do. Once we have the final details we're going to put that out there but really what we're trying to do is we're trying to look at all the work that people have done for small fleets and just say, y'know what, we're just going to make it easier.
In June it was revealed that each tier of the Dilithium Mine will have a total discount of 4, 9, and 15 percent on all fleet holdings. The mine will reduce dilithium inputs, trade will reduce items (commodities, doffs, consumables, etc.), and development will reduce fleet marks. I was interviewed on Priority One episode #132 to discuss my opinions and offer analysis.
Thanks and For More Information
Thanks to everyone who helped get data on the starbase project, embassy project, and dilithium mine project costs. We all knew it was expensive, but we never knew truly how expensive it was when we started. Hopefully this information will allow current and future fleets to use this knowledge in a way that is helpful for everyone involved.
Playing since January 2010. STOwiki administrator. Accolade hunter.
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Oh well, they got to pay for this game somehow.
- Judge Aaron Satie
The only people putting real money into it are the "can't wait, must have it now" group.
The numbers posted by me are accurate, though your exchange rate was off by a decimal point.
If you wanted to get the minimum dilithium needed to max out your starbase and embassy (currently 29,079,750 + 4,000,000 for limited time projects = 33,079,750 dilithium) and currently zen is selling at 104 dil/zen that'd require you to purchase 318,075 zen (and since there are 100 zen for $1.00 USD), this would cost $3,180.75. A considerable sum, made much easier if in a large fleet (split 25-ways it'd be $127 per person, or 500-ways it'd be just $6.37 per person). Keep in mind exchange rates do vary all the time, with historical values ranging between ~396 dil/zen (495 dil/CP) when the exchange went live in December 2011 to around 84 dil/zen in January 2013).
If you didn't want to use zen to get the dilithium, 33 million dilithium would take a single character 4135 days at maximum refining limit, or about 11.3 years. By then, of course, there'd be a host of new holdings that'd be added. Even the special limited time projects at 200,000 dilithium every 2 weeks take 25 days of maximum refining to obtain.
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
I am not trying to pick a fight but let's get serious here. 10 months is approximately 300 days. At 8K dilithium, it is 2,400,000 or about 1/2 what you said you earned. Obviously, you could do it on 2+ toons. It takes me about 2-3 hours to grind 8K dilithium on my Kling. So we are talking about 6 hours a day grinding dilithium.
Now maybe you are super efficient but we are still talking about hours of grind day in and day out non stop for 6 months. Obviously, if you have dozens of active members contributing on a regular basis it is much easier. This does not include any of the other costs including the obtaining "doffs" and supplies.
In terms of man hours, we are talking about several peoples doing a part / full time job.
- Judge Aaron Satie
My bad I was a bit too eager to respond.
- Judge Aaron Satie
Well, in theory, DOFFS are easy to get since you gain the ability to buy them with fleet credit you get from jamming in fleet marks.
In theory.
Also I see we have claims again that it takes 3 hours of play to max Dil on one character, when in reality if you even know DOFFing exists goes out the window so fast it isn't even funny.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
I've noticed that if you buy departmental fleet doffs (the commons costing 750 Fleet Credits) you'll get approximately 1 security to every 2 tactical and 1 medical to every 3 science. Engineering and operations are very close to 1:1. I've suggested a fix for this to simply be to decide which sub-department you want, with the specializations still being random.
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
What Mr Stahl mentioned could mean that all the hard work that most people put into starbases is going to be "devalued"
I suspect that they may reduce dilthium costs. That and doffs are the only real problem. Fleet marks are rediculously easy to get and so is EC.
What really makes me burn with anger is the possiblity that they are considering this to help out small fleets - not likely - most likely they have looked at the number of fleets past T4 and said that is about all that will make it under the current system - they have already spend all there time and money so it's ok if we TRIBBLE their hard work over - not like we will give them a refund!! LOL
There is ZERO reason under the existing system that a fleet of 5 cannot make T4
I know I mentioned him lots - and get the old - well he is a hardcore player - but there is 1 guy who has completed all 3 sections/upgrades of a TIER 4 (four) starbase SOLO!! - The only reason he has not done the T4 upgrade is hoping they do reduce the dilithium cost.
This is Rediculous - 1 guy can build a T4 starbase - and all the small fleets are whinning that they can't? So cryptic has to reduce costs and devalue the hard work many of us in 10 person fleets(not including my KDF side which is 400+) have put in to move to T5
Its total BS
So what now because of these small fleet whinniers we very likely could have a SOLO T5 starbase by the end of the year! - yeah its a hard system all right!
Most people have jobs, families, and other commitments that limit their play time. There's a reason why they're called "casual" players.
So what even 6 hours a day - that is only 1 hour a day each for a 6 man fleet - or 7 hours a week!
So you are saying a cryptic should devalue our hard work because a 5 man fleet does not want to put in 10 hours a week each to build their base? boo Hoo - so it should take them longer then - not cost less!
I'm sorry there is no justification for reducing T0 to T4 any further than it already has. T4 to T5 is like T0 to T4 x 2 so I could see a reduction in stuff above T4
Things change - and they're always changing in MMOs. Just because you and I don't mind grinding and learned to maximize the system doesn't mean everyone will also want to do that. STO is for recreation and fun - and for many players the current Starbase system isn't fun. This is especially true if you are a PvPer and need access to Fleet ships and gear to be competitive.
For YOUR information it was 10 miles - uphill - BOTH WAYS!!
Edit: Mind is almost gone now - forgot - the return trip was 20 miles!
Glad I saw this after my fleet getting to T5.....
I honestly don't think I would level another starbase again.
I'm not much of a grinder, but when I care to do so, I can do this much faster. I'm not sure if there is a KDF equivalent to the guy at ESD who grants 2000 dil for contraband, but if I want to quickly max my cap, I do that, plus the choice doff assignments in the departmental listings, plus a few Foundry spotlights. "Spectres," for example, grants me 2500 for 25 minutes of fun (or like 11 minutes for the players who zoom through the dialogues).
I hear that STFs are even more plentiful, but I hate that content, so I don't do them. But, really: contraband + a foundry spotlight + doff assignments = 6000+ dilithium. That's not even bothering with the really profitable doff assignments that make you buy all the particle traces.
Then, take a moment to google the answer to a midterm at SFA and play some more Foundry. 8000 dilithium is no sweat.
Ever so often, I have to replenish my ECs, usually by selling a few doffs or bartering things like large hypos on the exchange. I can buy them from a vendor for 320ish EC and they sell on the exchange for like 3000. A lot of other players farm the foundry farm missions to easily get 250K ECs for discarding the gear. Those 15 minutes alone pays for the contraband needed for 2000 dilithium.
Anyhow, I'm not a grinder, so grinders far better than I have it down to a much better science. They are probably scoffing at this post, since I don't know how they do it.
Still, 2-3 hours seems long to me, but I only occasionally do it, so I'm never farming for ECs daily. I suspect that some folks are getting tons of ECs from stashes of lock boxes. Last time I checked the Cardassian lock boxes were selling for 180K ECs. So, if you have a stash, that is the key to a very quick daily grind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRf66nblmxw
This explains what my tiny fleet is doing. Cost be damned, it is my folly to build!
Signed,
Vale proud owner of Vale's Folly and co-investor of Kell's Center of Political Incorrectness
Just a quick heads up, yes there is, they are in the high council chamber and also, using the shared bank to spread contraband across all of your alts=rolling in dilithium :P
You don't know what you're missing with STFs. Earlier today we ran 'Infected Space Elite' and 'Cure Space Elite' in personal record times. 3 minutes 29 seconds, and 3 minutes 49 seconds**. For 960 dil each, plus marks (another 500 dil) plus the possibility of a 6/11 probe drop (1/2k dil).
If you get good drops that's almost your entire refinement in 10 minutes. Even with bad drops it puts you nearly halfway there.
Okay so you won't start off doing sub 5 minute runs, but once you've done a few hundred and have joined a chat channel with excellent teams - you'll be laughing.
** Timing started when you warped into the system, and finished when the final loot was dropped. 5 tacticals, all above 10k dps. I hit my personal record of 14.1k dps in CSE, and we had a member broke an almost unheard of record of 20k dps on a tac Kumari in ISE!
Kirk's Protege.
Kirk's Protege.
A question from a relative newcomer who has yet to join/make a fleet: is it possible to just make the Embassy first to the exclusion of the Starbase?
Well if they lower costs i hope we get some compensation based on the amount of fleet credits we earned. I know they offered veteran boffs to people who got ripped off before the F2P conversion, I do hope they do something similar if they reduce costs.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Yes, you can make just the embassy or just the starbase. If you'd like a cost breakdown by tier, that's in the scenario details section here.
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
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