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Z-Store: Lifetime Subscription - 30,000 Zen
kobayashikumiho
Member Posts: 8 Arc User
Would anyone be in favor of adding the lifetime subscription to the Z-Store? Perhaps for a limited time? The thread below this one is asking for a LTS sale. However putting the LTS in the Z-Store is almost like a sale because people can use their dilithium to purchase Zen off the exchange and then purchase the rest of the Zen with cash to close the gap.
For example 1,000,000 dilithium (exhanged into Zen) and $200 USD gets you the LTS.
Or 2,000,000 dilithium (exhanged into Zen) and $100 USD gets you the LTS.
Finally 3,000,000 dilithium (exhanged into Zen) and $0 USD gets you the LTS.
A lot of people do not have $300 USD they are willing to part with for a LTS. But some have $200 and much more have $100. Wouldn't $100 be better than $0?
Of course this will temporarily cause the Zen to Dilithium market to go in the direction of Zen sellers, so they will be happy because they will get more Dil per dollar to use on their projects.
The downside is putting the LTS in the Z-Store permanently would make having it as a lockbox prize obsolete.
Aye or nay? Reasoning for or against in follow up posts appreciated.
For example 1,000,000 dilithium (exhanged into Zen) and $200 USD gets you the LTS.
Or 2,000,000 dilithium (exhanged into Zen) and $100 USD gets you the LTS.
Finally 3,000,000 dilithium (exhanged into Zen) and $0 USD gets you the LTS.
A lot of people do not have $300 USD they are willing to part with for a LTS. But some have $200 and much more have $100. Wouldn't $100 be better than $0?
Of course this will temporarily cause the Zen to Dilithium market to go in the direction of Zen sellers, so they will be happy because they will get more Dil per dollar to use on their projects.
The downside is putting the LTS in the Z-Store permanently would make having it as a lockbox prize obsolete.
Aye or nay? Reasoning for or against in follow up posts appreciated.
Post edited by kobayashikumiho on
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I dont think US has VAT
Thing is subs and LTS have that monthly stipend so if they will sell subs/LTS in c store they will have to be special editions or something without stipend ..because theres no reaon to pay the sub worth in zen and get 500 zen back...its stupid.To pay 1500 zen for 1 month sub without zen is fair imo .
There have been several people complaining about a VAT-like system who are based in certain states of the US.
But I can pretty much promise you that LTS will never make it into the Cryptic Store, since that would basically allow for people to never ever buy Zen...
Example:
The C-Store quite simple is THE worst solution for Cryptic to sell LTS or Gold accounts in general, as it will in the long term make "real" zen purchases obsolete.
Zen and Dilithium, regardless of how you get it, is already money paid to Cryptic. The LTS is intended to attract immediate lump sums. This proposal wants to remove the entire purpose of the LTS for absolutely no profit.
US maybe not, but guess what... not every STO player is from US, there are other countries in the world and yes... some of them had VAT.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
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1500 zen for that as opposed to buying each individually is a bit of a no-brainer.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
This is more of a problem with Cryptic's F2P matrix than anything else. They remove the incentive for people to buy them a la carte by giving away so much for $15 (including giving you $5 back in the form of zen).
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I think Cryptic did that so for "easy entry" and sub. (even for a short time)
to OP: consider that you CAN get zen with literally no money involved, I don't think lifetime cannot be bought with zen.
"Maybe" a 30 day time card with Zen (possibly modified version from sub version with less unlocks and no zen stipend.
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So far, generally everyone is against selling the LTS in the Z-Store. That is fine. I am suprised that there is not more support for it. The idea is to make PWE more money, not less, because the less it makes the shorter STO will be online.
Right now the logic is that PWE would no longer make any money on LTS sales if they were in the Z-Store and therefore it shouldn't be done. This reasoning is very common in many businesses that decide that one big sale is more important than lots of little ones. I remember a televised lemonade stand competition where one stand was selling its cups for $5/each and the other was selling for $20/each. It origionally tried selling for $1,000/each.
In this situation, stand A has to sell at least 4x more cups than stand B. However because stand B is 4x more, it has a much harder time selling its product. It should be noted that because stand B could not sell any cups at $1,000 it eventually moved its price down because it only had an 8 hour time frame to sell its product.
Here are some things to consider.
1) Most people who would play STO have already found out about it.
2) Most people willing to pay $300 for an LTS have already paid it.
3) The value of the LTS decreases with time, therefore the cost goes up.
4) STO has an unknown self life and therefore eventually an LTS will be worth $0, or a 100% loss.
Let's take this more in depth.
1. At one time STO was something not everyone knew about, therefore there was a lot of potential customers who would be willing to try the game and possibly buy its products. At this point it is hard to believe that there is any major untapped player base remaining. STO is now in the situation where its gone from growth to maintenance of its customer base.
2. Since most of the customer base STO will ever have is now with the game, most of its customers know about the LTS product. Most have considered and decided yes or no on purchasing the LTS for $300. The majority of LTSs that will be sold for $300 have now been sold. What remains are the customers willing to pay between $1 and $300. By offering the LTS several times for less than $300, PWE has managed to capture additional sales that it would not have gotten otherwise.
3. There are still customers out there willing to pay money for an LTS, however they consider the price of $200-300 to be too excessive for the product that is given in return. Now, some people won't even be wiilling to pay $1 for an LTS, but there are a number of unknown players out there willing to pay something. The question is how much.
4. By putting the LTS in the Z-Store for 30,000 Zen you effectively are allowing players to pay what they consider the LTS to be worth. Many people will not buy it. But some people will. They will think that the Dilithium they ground and turned into Zen is "free". But not everyone is sitting on 3,000,000 dilithium. So they will either have to keep grinding for many months or they will pony up cash to pay the difference to reach 30,000 Zen. If the LTS is only on sale for a limited time then they won't have unlimited time to grind and therefore it won't be completely free, unless they are already sitting on 30,000 Zen. So they will have to spend cash.
5. As each month goes by the logic is that the lifespan of STO will continue to decrease. Currently it would take 60 months to recieve back 30,000 Zen from the stipend. STO may have 60 months today, but will it be 60 months next month? If you considered an LTS as an interest free loan to STO, and assuming a 5% loan rate, it would take 69 months for an LTS to "break even".
6. Some of the rewards that the LTS offers will continue to lose value. For example, once bridge officers are promotable to captains, the Liberated Borg race will lose all of its value. At this point a one month gold sub will get you everything the LTS offers sans the Chimera. So now the LTS will become even more expensive to people because less product is being offered for the same price. If the Borg become a playable fraction this will have the same effect as the promotable bridge officer.
7. As STO gets older and older, the LTS becomes more and more expensive because the chance to recover its cost through stipend becomes less and less likely.
Remember the saying, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush?
Personally, I don't see the LTS worth $300. I know I am not alone in that decision. However for cash and Zen I would be interested. I know others would be as well. Everyone's "price point" is different. Therefore putting it up for 30,000 allows people to determine where they feel they are getting their value for their money. If they feel only $100 is fair, then let them grind the rest in Dilithium. Frankly, it will take a long time.
Dan projected that 2,000 dilithium per hour is their target rate for players. However, many people can do 4,000 per hour. Consequently, it will take between 750 and 1,500 hours of play to earn a "free" LTS. This is about $.20 to $.40 per hour. If time wasn't a factor, it would still take 375 days to convert 3,000,000 "free" ore to 30,000 "free" Zen. And since the Zen Exchange is fluid, it could take even more dilithium if the exchange rate moves against the "freebies". But does anyone convert 8,000 dilithium a day every single day? Nope.
Having lots of alts helps decrease some issues like refining but you still need to put the time in so it is still $.20 to $.40 an hour.
There will be some people who manage to get to 30,000 "free" Zen. But a lot of people will never make it. They will work and work and get to about 10,000 "free" Zen, decide they can't wait any longer, then buy the last 20,000 in cash and get their LTS and move on. Note: THIS IS 20,000 IN CASH TO ZEN PWE WOULD HAVE NOT RECEIVED OTHERWISE. They paid $200 because that is what the LTS was worth to them. Some will go farther, maybe to 15,000 "free" Zen, and then buy the rest. Some will go to 20,000 "free" Zen, and then buy the rest... regardless PWE is still getting cold hard cash. Some will go all the way to 30,000 and well, good for them. They wouldn't have bought an LTS otherwise anyhow. To them an LTS was actually worth $0. So PWE isn't losing any money because the 30,000 "free" players would have not bought an LTS even if it was $0 in cash.
Additionally, activity leads to activity. I'm certain STO would love to have full servers all the time. No one wants to play on a "dead" game. If having a free LTS option via 30,000 Zen (all 1500 hours of grinding) actually keeps some players playing day after day after day hour after hour, then that increases the number of people online and helps drive the economy and group play such as STFs. To go really outside the box, if everyone was trying to get a free LTS via "free" Zen, the servers would become so busy that only Gold Subs and current LTS would be able to log on because all the free players would have secondary quere connection status. Peanut Labs would be racking in even more survey takers and that generates money for PWE.
Having an LTS option in the Z-Store doesn't deny PWE any money. Instead it opens up the gate for more sales that it wouldn't close otherwise.
The LTS is essentially Liberated Borg and the Chimera. What is that worth? Everyone has made their decision on the value to them. PWE is missing the boat on anyone who has decided the LTS is worth less than $300 or $200 (the patient few).
Let the discussion renew!
If I decide to pay 50/50 they won't lose any thing they even gain more, because someone already pay them 150$ for ZEN I bought at exchange, and I pay them additional 150$ for the rest ZEN I need. 150$>0$
Ahh, the absurd $1000 cup of lemonade. I believe that was Season 1 of The Apprentice.
You bring up some quite good points -- tis better to make some money than no money, and if they do it in a way that will generate net revenue then its something that should be considered. Some people will save up their dilithium for it rather than put it in projects, some will buy the extra zen they need, and so on. Those with a LTS are more invested in the future of the game because they've put in a large commitment -- either time, money, or both.
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
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There is a lot of text but I'll response to this.
By putting LTS into z-store they will indeed LOSE money (well lost of LTS sales)
how? there are some dedicated players who have paid NO money for the game and yet able to get all the perks for the game.
It is possible to get refine dilithium and convert to Zen. So this method will essentially give LTS free to those who have the means to do it. While I understand that someone has to buy Zen to put on the market, there is a perceive loss in there.
BUT!!!!
You are right that by putting subs on c-store, it could generate more revenue (i.e. encourage people to sub) when people are subbed, some may want to get more and thus MAY buy more zen to fuel their need.
But that is some "advance business projection" that we don't have the raw data to back or calculate from.
I.E. how many LTS have been sold? how much at 299? how much at 199? How many subs are currently active? how much Zen are being purchase monthly? How many players never bought any zen but use exchange to obtain it (this will be interesting number, but crucial to see how many current players can afford the 30k LTS package)
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So what about Zen purchased with Dil?
All Zen that are submitted to the Dil Exchange are locked to STO, and theres no way to tell what was earned through Dil and What was given as Stipend... They'd have to re-work the entire Dil exchange to make that happen.
Again:
-> Subscriber earns Zen Stipend -> Sells it for dil -> Player buying zen Buys LTS-> NEW Subscriber earns stipen -> Sells it for dil -> Player buying zen Buys LTS-> NEW Subscriber earns stipen -> ...
Let's just say there are 10,000 subs (Gold+LTS) out there earning 500 "free" Zen each month. I think this is a really high estimate but let's go high and assume worst case free Zen scenerio. That's 5,000,000 "free" Zen floating in the economy. So where does it all go?
If all the "free" Zen each month went into buying LTSs at 30,000 Zen each, the entire game could only provide 166 "free" LTS each month, or about 1.16% increase in LTSs.
So one month later there would be 10,116 subs out there or 5,058,000 "free" Zen. Note that adding 116 new subs only added 58,000 more "free" Zen to the economy. So the next month there could be 118 new "free" LTS subs given away.
As you can see there won't be a massive sudden expansion of "free" subs. At a 1.16% expansion rate it would take -> 62 <- months to double the numer of LTSs.
So while there is a valid point that having "free" LTSs would mean suddenly everyone will have unlimited free Zen and the game will no longer bring in income is going to take a really long time to come to pass.
Here's another way to look at "lost" revenue. 116 "free" subs each month is $34,800 potential lost income. However if all the game's "free" Zen is going into paying for "free" LTSs, then there won't be any "free" Zen to pay for "free" Vestas or "free" lock box keys. There is only so much "free" Zen floating around. The rest has to be paid for with cash.
Having the LTS in the Z-Store might result in less cash being spent on the LTS, but with all the free Zen going into LTS purchases, that means cash purchases of ships, costumes, and lock boxes will increase.
There is only a finite amount of "free" Zen out there. The rest is paid for by someone.
LTS sales will vacuum up the "Zen surplus". Many other things being bought for "free" will now have to be paid for in cash. LTS sales will drive the Zen to Dil market heavily in favor of sellers making "free" LTS harder to achieve.
Since "free" Zen takes much more effort more people will just buy Zen with Cash because the exchange rate is so poor.
Starbase and reputation projects will become "cheaper" because dilithium is worth less.
At 100 Dil to Zen it will take 3,000,000 Dil and 375 days to get a "free" LTS.
At 500 Dil to Zen it will take 15,000,000 Dil and 1,875 days to get a "free" LTS.
At 100 Dil to Zen a starbase special project costs, $20.00 USD.
At 500 Dil to Zen a starbase special project costs, $4.00 USD.
I'm willing to pay $4 for windows for my small fleet, but not $20.
At 500 Dil to Zen, people are now making $.04 to $.08/hr. People will stop grinding and just buy Zen since getting anything for "free" has now become a massive undertaking. PWE will probably make more money. Starbases and Reputation proejects will actually become "cheaper" since dil is worth less. I'm game for that.
Just a quick scan of the first few zen posts on the dil exchange revealed 200K Zen just waiting to be bought with dil.
In the short run, it would make little diffrence, yes, but in the long run (and I don't mean 62 months), people would pretty quickly figure this out, and shift the way people subscribe to this game.
I don't know how many regular golds are out there. Most Golds complain there isn't enough value in a Gold sub beyond one month so I am assuming there are not that many Golds left.
Where I would like clarification is how 30,000 Zen LTSs would shift the way people subscribe to the game. The 30,000 Zen is coming from somewhere. Either its "free" Zen from the current subscriptions or its "cash" Zen people bought and put up in the exchange. And once it is gone it won't come back at more than 500 "free" Zen per month.
Let's say there is 600,000 "free" Zen on the exchange for sale right now? That's 20 LTSs. Also, that's 600,00 Zen not going into other stuff like "free" Vestas. If an LTS is purchased for say, $100 cash and 20,000 "free" Zen that is 20,000 Zen now gone forever. That is 4 Vesta packs that are not going to be free and have to be purchased with cash.
Let's use this example. Its really easy to part with $5 or $10 USD. But its huge to part with $300 USD when you can go get 5 new PS or XBox games with that amount. Right now there is $600 in "free" Zen on the market. That allows for 60 people to get $10 in "free" stuff. Those people might be willing to spend $10 if that $600 wasn't up for grabs.
However if three people come along, and buy up $200 worth of Zen each, then chip in $100 in cash for an LTS, PWE makes $300 USD plus $600 of "free" Zen is now gone. So those 60 people who would have gotten things for $0 decide they rather not wait and grind against a huge exchange rate and will just spend the cash. So PWE just made $900. Above they made nothing. Yes PWE did lose $600 in LTS sales, but they made $600 in Zen sales to pay for other things.
All that is happening is moving income from one pocket (LTS sales) to another pocket (ship/key sales). But its still PWE's pants regardless.
It's hard to justify buying Zen with cash when you can get $.80 USD a day per char if you are gung ho about getting Dil and refining it. But when its only $.16 USD per day most people are just going to buy the thing they really want rather than mindless grind.
To me the LTS is worth $100. So I am going to go grind 20,000 Zen and pay in cash with the rest. But if the LTS aways remains at $300 then PWE will never get my $100 cash as I will never buy an LTS. So who ends up losing? $100 is better than $0. It's still going to take 20 months for STO to pay back the $100 cash in stipend.
Please explain why this is a bad idea.
A LTS makes less money than a subscription at $15/month in 20 months, ignoring whatever impact the stipend has. PWE doesn't run STO intending for it to shut down at any time. PWI has been running for 8 years, they certainly expect at least another 5 from STO. What this means is that the preference is for people to subscribe, not get LTS. For the longest time there were a lot of complaints that the LTS was not worth the money, and that's probably the reason.
If you paid attention to the LTS sales, it generally takes place when they want a boost in revenue for their quarterly reports. They do something and need to show results, so put a sale on LTS in the hopes of getting a bump.
You've also missed my point, which had nothing to do with the stipend or grinding. Existing Zen is worthless to them. It's already revenue earned or expense accrued, and the only reason to increase its value is to increase demand. Judging by their statements and direction, the lockboxes are more than sufficient in generating demand. Combine this with the fact that Dilithium is a "time invested" currency, and an increase in the value of Zen (by increasing a demand in Zen) is contrary to that purpose. There is literally zero reason for allowing LTS to be purchased with Zen.
Every single reason stated thus far is essentially "I want to spend less money", followed by statements that are literally the opposite of what PWE wants. They don't care if you don't buy an LTS because you claim you'll otherwise keep playing without it. If you're going to keep playing, they want you do be a subscriber or indulging in micro-transactions - they don't want you to be an LTS as that damages their revenue stream.
The purpose of the LTS is to get more money out of people who play less than 20 months. The purpose of LTS sales is to essentially cash an annuity for a short-term bump in revenue. You've completely missed the reasons for the LTS, and keep telling them why they shouldn't make it available for Zen.
I have to agree. I'm LTS and loving it. I bought it on pre-order before STO went live. It SAVES ME money not the company
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If the preference is to get people to subscribe to Gold Subscriptions, why then does it make more sense to subscribe for one month of Gold, then cancel, and just buy Zen outright?
If their goal is to make people subscribe month after month, then a Gold subscription has to give more than $15 in value each month. Currently it gives $5 after the first month. I did one month and then stopped because of this.
Why then not make the Romulan faction Gold and LTS only?
You are correct about the lock boxes. That seems to be the main engine that drives STO.
As long as there is not lock box burn out then selling anything else is unnecessary.
Not quite sure you really understood my response to the topic. My post was pointing out an alternative payment option that could be utilized for people to get a lifetime sub that doesn't cause a lose in revenue for PWE at the same time...
As for no way to tell? there is a way. Very simple coding can track what was obtained via the store (Credit card) and via the exchange.
***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
The old subscription model doesn't work (which is obvious if you look at every MMO other than WoW) so they're not going to want to aggressively drive people to Gold by denial of content.
If you look at all of PWE's games, their business model doesn't really aim for subscriptions but micro-transactions. They don't actually seem to care too much about Gold or LTS.
If a player isn't going to last, then they'd prefer they sink in LTS and lose money. If the player will last, they'd prefer they go Gold and pay more. This isn't even something to attract new players, it's something entirely for continuing long term players, who they don't even want to give an LTS to.
You forgot another factor. Those that want to go LTS but simply cannot afford that kind of outlay in one single transaction. Which micro-transaction favors as your arguement points out...
I AM a Gold member, I pay a subscription MONTHLY. I Have paid more in subs then a LTS costs, but for one reason, I can't afford to fork out well over 300 bucks (Exchange rate) in one single go so I have to settle for the lower monthly amount.
I HAVE been doing this for over 1000 days. I have contributed more in subs than EVERY LTS in this game. Yet I can't get an LTS. And on top of that, People like me get left out and ignored when a promotion comes and the LTS that paid less gets to participate or reap the rewards...
So it is about time Pakled World looks at a way for people that want LTS to be able to get one.
Now in this my original post on this topic stands. Accumulate zen via PAYMENTS NOT via in-game exchange to be able to pay for a LTS. We accumulate a set amount and are able to transfer that into an LTS.
Before THAT guys barks on about this cant be traced blah blah it can be, so very easily (The coding for this is already BEING USED). There are so many options open...
It's about time Pakled World recognizes it's contributors and long term ones at that and thinks about how it can actually reward them...
***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
Based on having 3 characters you would receive over $700 worth of stuff, from ships, costumes, etc. So I think it is worth the money. I think selling it in the C-Store is a bad idea, but automatically turning 1000 day or even 8 or 9 hundred day vets to life members would be the way forward.
Can't afford it in one go just sub and wait, can't wait spend $300
the user formally known as kiss.my.rear.admiral
If you could have gotten an LTS, you would have paid less. Allowing you to get an LTS doesn't sound like any sort of sensible business decision.
Further, the entire point of offering an LTS is to get a lump sum today instead of an annuity. It's nonsensical for them to sell a product intended to give a large one-time increase in revenue in a fashion that does not give a one-time increase in revenue.
You yourself want an LTS because you'd pay less. That's exactly the opposite of what the supplier wants. I'm not saying the reasons provided are "wrong", I'm saying they make absolutely no sense to PWE.
As an aside, I kind of expect a sale on LTS in May when the Romulans come out, since that will look good on their financial statements and help justify the investment in developing playable Romulans.
Why? You got exactly what you paid for.
Further, when you purchase an LTS you're assuming risk. If you do not (or cannot) play you don't get full value for your money. Your loss is as great as $300. They have your money, there was no risk for them.
If you purchase Gold you're assuming considerably less risk. If you do not (or cannot) play you don't get full value for your money. Your loss is as great as $15. You didn't assume the risk.
The two are not equal. Just because you happened to consistently pay every month doesn't retroactively make it equal to having paid a lump sum. That's not how it works. If an apartment costs $300 to purchase, just because you pay $15 rent for 20 months doesn't mean you suddenly own the apartment.