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PvP Boot Camp Ground: On Hold
gradstudent1
Member Posts: 633 Arc User
Dear Players,
It is with great sadness that I have to announce that the ground section--and the ground section ONLY--of PvP Boot Camp is now on hold. At this time, I cannot tell you when, or even if, group Boot Camp will start up again. This shift in direction comes directly from the ground coaches themselves, and especially from Pug01 and Subu, who have put a great deal of time and energy into Boot Camp Ground. In their assessment, ground PvP in STO is "broken" to the point that they no longer feel capable of teaching ground tactics without also having to teach people to exploit problematic and broken dynamics in the game. Pug01 and Subu put together an incredible curriculum, ont to mention a stellar team of coaches. They will be missed.
The coaches, I know, have put a great deal of thought into this decision. And so that you--our students--don't think that they are stepping aside without clear reasons, I had Pug01 put together a list of issues along with video evidence.
Here is the communication Pug01 sent to me.
Several bugs have become a major problem in ground combat. Currently these bugs result in very overpowered tactics, in which a premade team, can completely shut down their opposition, while they take their opponents out one a time. Season six introduced some of these issues but in Season 7 we saw a second wave of the issues.
Relative to the bootcamp: We can teach students team strategies but once they face a premade team using the broken mechanics they will quickly learn that those strategies are more useful. I will provide a quick overview of the major broken issues.
Knockback: Once a target has been knocked back or repel an Immunity to that effect should result. Even in the buff bar this Immunity can be observed but the resistance does not function. Repeated knockbacks can still be placed on the target with absolutely no Immunity coming into play. Furthermore the Willpower resistance to knockback does not exist either. Even the use of the Maco Shield with +29 Knockback resist does not add to the passive knockback resistance. It is clear that there is currently no resistance against knockback. This includes the secondary on Pulsewaves. The video link below demonstrates this tactic in full effect: http://youtu.be/w6nnusE6eT4?hd=1
Stun: Once a target has been stunned an Immunity develops against repeated Stuns. The Immunity Buff can be seen on the buff bar but this Immunity does not function. Repeated stuns can still be placed against the target even though the Immunity is in place. The use of high fire weapons with 3 people focusing on spreading AOE stun effects on the opponents can result in a continuous stun on the opponents while 2 spike damage dealers finish of the team. Willpower and Scientific Aptitude also does not increase any resistance against Stun effects. The video link below show the failure of the Immunity against stun: http://youtu.be/baWmNqd2UJs?hd=1
Cold Hold: The Chill/Hold from cold damage is suppose to develop an Immunity against repeated Cold effects. This immunity does not function even though the resistance is displayed on the buff bar. Multiple users of the CRM200 or Compressed Cryo Pulsewave can effectively hold a team in place, for large extended periods of time by chaining their Cold AOE damage. The next video demonstrates the failure of the Immunity: http://youtu.be/BwK81SUgHuE?hd=1
Omega Gun: The Omega gun has an Immobilize proc that is very high. This proc develops no Immunity. Using multiple Omega guns in a team formation allows a team to lockdown other teams and allow AOE damage to kill the opponents. A team format using this would use two engineers with Mortars and 3 Science officers. Charging in they can use the Omega Guns to hold their targets in place indefinitely while the mortars do their damage. The video below demonstrates the Omega gun proc and provides some of the probability numbers: http://youtu.be/PkcLgSi8III?hd=1
Stasis Pistol: The Stasis pistol generate a Guaranteed extended Hold. During this hold the target is suppose to receive a damage immunity. But under the effects of a Weapon Malfunction or the Lobi Store grenade this Immunity can be removed and the target can be killed while they are being held. This video demonstrates this result: http://youtu.be/EzH4S9N3Byk?hd=1
Reroute Power to Shields: This is a vital captain ability for engineers. In the bootcamp we often will teach engineers how to capitalize on this 15 second effect. This power is suppose to generate exposes on the damage dealer shooting at the Engineer. But this mechanic is broken is in fact generates an expose on the Engineer using the power. Instead of a Resistance power it will cause an expose that can result in an incoming damage that will receive a 200% damage buff: The follow video link demonstrates this: http://youtu.be/BkETv1ymfOE?hd=1
Omega Shield: The omega shield is suppose to generate exposes on damage owners who shoot at someone using the Omega shield. Instead it generates an expose on the wearer of the Omega shield when they receive damage. The following video demonstrates this: http://youtu.be/L973L0NTdvM?hd=1
There are further issues with the Maco 3 piece team bonus and the Klingon Honor Gaurd 3 piece team bonus. These bonuses do not function across the team.
The list is extensive but what should be clear is that multiple options are available for a team to utilize these broken mechanics. A Phaser Pulsewave has a Stun proc as well as a 50% knockback on the secondary of the gun. Currently some people will utilize a ranged Pulsewave secondary, not for damage, but for the Knockback effect. Two or three people using this technique at range can generate several knockbacks. With the Phaser weapon they can combine stun effects. With two Phaser Auto rifles using a KB3 modifier a successful stun effect can be placed on multiple targets on a frequent basis and the KB3 effect will also add additional knockbacks If a whole team was to use 5 x Phaser Auto Rifles with KB3 their opponents could be locked up indefinitely.
A tactical officer using Lunge can expect a 100% chance to knockback their opponent. Clever placement can allow them to knockback their target into a corner and using a sword they can kill their opponent without any chance of their opponent reacting to the effect. Willpower does not help.
Currently several teams are quickly learning how to capitalize on these broken mechanics. It is an either do or die situation since these techniques far outperform any other strategy. I do not feel that the ground bootcamp is a viable option at this point. Ground PvPers will find the next stages of the bootcamp frustrating since broken mechanics will prevail as it is a more useful technique. The spirit of the bootcamp is not to teach how to exploit broken mechanics and therefore there really is nothing else to teach at this stage.
These effects have seen most of the Ground PvP Bootcamp coaches leaving the game as it is. I can maybe find 3 players to coach the Ground bootcamp at this stage. Most of the Ground Coaches have lost interest in the game and these issue has contributed in a major way.
Pug01
P.S. Willpower has been an issue for a long time. It functions correctly against some effects but is completely lacking against others. There was a boost to willpower just pre season 6. This boost was around for about three weeks before it suddenly disappeared without notice. Since then willpower has been very lacking against the effects listed above. With the start of Season 7 we saw the loss of the Immunity resistances.
It is with great sadness that I have to announce that the ground section--and the ground section ONLY--of PvP Boot Camp is now on hold. At this time, I cannot tell you when, or even if, group Boot Camp will start up again. This shift in direction comes directly from the ground coaches themselves, and especially from Pug01 and Subu, who have put a great deal of time and energy into Boot Camp Ground. In their assessment, ground PvP in STO is "broken" to the point that they no longer feel capable of teaching ground tactics without also having to teach people to exploit problematic and broken dynamics in the game. Pug01 and Subu put together an incredible curriculum, ont to mention a stellar team of coaches. They will be missed.
The coaches, I know, have put a great deal of thought into this decision. And so that you--our students--don't think that they are stepping aside without clear reasons, I had Pug01 put together a list of issues along with video evidence.
Here is the communication Pug01 sent to me.
Several bugs have become a major problem in ground combat. Currently these bugs result in very overpowered tactics, in which a premade team, can completely shut down their opposition, while they take their opponents out one a time. Season six introduced some of these issues but in Season 7 we saw a second wave of the issues.
Relative to the bootcamp: We can teach students team strategies but once they face a premade team using the broken mechanics they will quickly learn that those strategies are more useful. I will provide a quick overview of the major broken issues.
Knockback: Once a target has been knocked back or repel an Immunity to that effect should result. Even in the buff bar this Immunity can be observed but the resistance does not function. Repeated knockbacks can still be placed on the target with absolutely no Immunity coming into play. Furthermore the Willpower resistance to knockback does not exist either. Even the use of the Maco Shield with +29 Knockback resist does not add to the passive knockback resistance. It is clear that there is currently no resistance against knockback. This includes the secondary on Pulsewaves. The video link below demonstrates this tactic in full effect: http://youtu.be/w6nnusE6eT4?hd=1
Stun: Once a target has been stunned an Immunity develops against repeated Stuns. The Immunity Buff can be seen on the buff bar but this Immunity does not function. Repeated stuns can still be placed against the target even though the Immunity is in place. The use of high fire weapons with 3 people focusing on spreading AOE stun effects on the opponents can result in a continuous stun on the opponents while 2 spike damage dealers finish of the team. Willpower and Scientific Aptitude also does not increase any resistance against Stun effects. The video link below show the failure of the Immunity against stun: http://youtu.be/baWmNqd2UJs?hd=1
Cold Hold: The Chill/Hold from cold damage is suppose to develop an Immunity against repeated Cold effects. This immunity does not function even though the resistance is displayed on the buff bar. Multiple users of the CRM200 or Compressed Cryo Pulsewave can effectively hold a team in place, for large extended periods of time by chaining their Cold AOE damage. The next video demonstrates the failure of the Immunity: http://youtu.be/BwK81SUgHuE?hd=1
Omega Gun: The Omega gun has an Immobilize proc that is very high. This proc develops no Immunity. Using multiple Omega guns in a team formation allows a team to lockdown other teams and allow AOE damage to kill the opponents. A team format using this would use two engineers with Mortars and 3 Science officers. Charging in they can use the Omega Guns to hold their targets in place indefinitely while the mortars do their damage. The video below demonstrates the Omega gun proc and provides some of the probability numbers: http://youtu.be/PkcLgSi8III?hd=1
Stasis Pistol: The Stasis pistol generate a Guaranteed extended Hold. During this hold the target is suppose to receive a damage immunity. But under the effects of a Weapon Malfunction or the Lobi Store grenade this Immunity can be removed and the target can be killed while they are being held. This video demonstrates this result: http://youtu.be/EzH4S9N3Byk?hd=1
Reroute Power to Shields: This is a vital captain ability for engineers. In the bootcamp we often will teach engineers how to capitalize on this 15 second effect. This power is suppose to generate exposes on the damage dealer shooting at the Engineer. But this mechanic is broken is in fact generates an expose on the Engineer using the power. Instead of a Resistance power it will cause an expose that can result in an incoming damage that will receive a 200% damage buff: The follow video link demonstrates this: http://youtu.be/BkETv1ymfOE?hd=1
Omega Shield: The omega shield is suppose to generate exposes on damage owners who shoot at someone using the Omega shield. Instead it generates an expose on the wearer of the Omega shield when they receive damage. The following video demonstrates this: http://youtu.be/L973L0NTdvM?hd=1
There are further issues with the Maco 3 piece team bonus and the Klingon Honor Gaurd 3 piece team bonus. These bonuses do not function across the team.
The list is extensive but what should be clear is that multiple options are available for a team to utilize these broken mechanics. A Phaser Pulsewave has a Stun proc as well as a 50% knockback on the secondary of the gun. Currently some people will utilize a ranged Pulsewave secondary, not for damage, but for the Knockback effect. Two or three people using this technique at range can generate several knockbacks. With the Phaser weapon they can combine stun effects. With two Phaser Auto rifles using a KB3 modifier a successful stun effect can be placed on multiple targets on a frequent basis and the KB3 effect will also add additional knockbacks If a whole team was to use 5 x Phaser Auto Rifles with KB3 their opponents could be locked up indefinitely.
A tactical officer using Lunge can expect a 100% chance to knockback their opponent. Clever placement can allow them to knockback their target into a corner and using a sword they can kill their opponent without any chance of their opponent reacting to the effect. Willpower does not help.
Currently several teams are quickly learning how to capitalize on these broken mechanics. It is an either do or die situation since these techniques far outperform any other strategy. I do not feel that the ground bootcamp is a viable option at this point. Ground PvPers will find the next stages of the bootcamp frustrating since broken mechanics will prevail as it is a more useful technique. The spirit of the bootcamp is not to teach how to exploit broken mechanics and therefore there really is nothing else to teach at this stage.
These effects have seen most of the Ground PvP Bootcamp coaches leaving the game as it is. I can maybe find 3 players to coach the Ground bootcamp at this stage. Most of the Ground Coaches have lost interest in the game and these issue has contributed in a major way.
Pug01
P.S. Willpower has been an issue for a long time. It functions correctly against some effects but is completely lacking against others. There was a boost to willpower just pre season 6. This boost was around for about three weeks before it suddenly disappeared without notice. Since then willpower has been very lacking against the effects listed above. With the start of Season 7 we saw the loss of the Immunity resistances.
Post edited by gradstudent1 on
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I couldn't agree more, Snog.
I'll have to say that the first two sessions were very beneficial and helpful to me and my fleet. I deeply appreciate the work, effort, and patience put into the sessions by all of the coaches. I enjoyed meeting and talking with Jassem T. Sleiman, Subu, Pug04, and the other coaches that worked with me and the other students and I have learned a lot from all of them. Thank you to one and all.
Live long and prosper.
P.S. If the ground PvP Boot Camp is ever resumed, please announce it in more than just the forums, if possible, and in sufficient lead time to allow us to know when to sign up for session 3. Seeing as how that that time is unpredictable and it may likely be quite some time before this happens, it would be easy for people to miss any announcement if it were only placed in the current subforum. Thank you.
It shouldn't be all bad though. Maybe we can still looking at holding classes for sessions 1 and 2 in the future? We won't be able to finish them, but it would be something. I realize it's probably too much work in the long run, but just trying to make the best of the situation.
www.divisionhispana.com
As for the complaints about Resistances... Well, I believe there's a misconception about how Resistance to Control effects works in STO.
When you have Resistance to a Knockback effect (for example), the result is not that Knockbacks have a lower chance to effect you. Instead, it's that Knockbacks effect you to a far lesser degree. You are resisting the Magnitude of the effect, not the effect itself.** So, to a certain extent, these resistances appear to be Working As Designed, when they are properly applying upon the expiration of a Control effect. If a Control effect does NOT grant any sort of resistance or immunity upon expiration, that's a bug we will endeavor to address.
Now, despite this Resistance functionality being WAD, that doesn't necessarily mean that our current Design is foolproof. We're currently examining expiration-based resistance/immunity effects to see if the Design needs to change. We'll update the community if we decide to make such a sweeping choice.
Ultimately, delaying the Ground PvP Boot Camp may be the right choice. It honestly might not be a bad idea to wait until Legacy of Romulus has launched before offering this training course, due to the number of Trait choices that have a direct bearing on Ground-based character builds. With the upcoming availability of re-Traits, many players will be likely to see choosing the correct Traits as important to their Ground PvP experience, as having the right equipment.
**EDIT: Or, sometimes, the Duration of the effect.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Methinks that bit wasn't supposed to be announced yet...but I'm damn glad it did.
That said, and I don't have any hard data to back this up, but it certainly doesn't feel like those "immunity" buffs are affecting the magnitude or duration of these effects in any way. Further testing will be needed to get that hard data.
I think it was a bit of a given at this point, considering how requested it was and how much the developers have shown interest in making it possible.
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
True, but this is the first piece of information post the whole "let's string the players along for a month and then tell them next to nothing except for a few fancy screenshots".
Vanilla Ground PvP information
I can understand the resistance to CC applying to magnitude, but KB is strong because of the animation lock. Even if you have the ULTIMATE RESISTANCE to knockback, being affected by it to the LESSER extent possible is still a huge advantage. The animation lock and disable time (falling down, standing up) against characters with high Willpower is stronger than any other CC effect.
Please consider altering KB resistance to affect the CHANCE of getting KB'ed as well. Just decreasing the KB magnitude means very little in practice.
STO Screenshot Archive
www.divisionhispana.com
..... When even more pvp related stuff ends up on your ground pvp concerns list. lol
Here's to hoping Cryptic gets the message and fixes ground combat. Otherwise, I might as well go back to playing BSGO. :P
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Specifically the following was posted:
"The Omega Force Personal Shields will no longer proc an expose on the wearer rather than the attacker.
Resolved some issues with expose:
Smoke Grenade will no longer expose the player rather than the target.
Battle Strategies will no longer expose the player instead of the target.
Overwatch will no longer expose the player instead of the target.
The M.A.C.O. set bonus Tactical Readiness Network will no longer expose the player with its proc instead of the attacker.
Reroute Power to Shields will no longer expose the player rather than enemies that were firing at the user.
Battle Strategies will now remove the debuffs from Suppressing Fire."
Or is there just too much other stuff right now besides the expose issues?
The decision is in the hands of Pug and Subu at this point. Thanks for pointing this out though, Mimey.
Furthermore, there is no mention of a fix for the nonfunctional MACO or KHG 3set (by the way, the MACO set never exposed the wearer because the MACO 3set bonus doesn't actually exist: the MACO "fix" is sort of like "repainting" a house that has no walls).
Finally, the change to Battle Strategies with respect to Suppressing Fire, while a good thing in my opinion, is a huge balance change to PvP that will require experimentation and reconfiguration of team dynamics in-house before we can effectively teach team tactics to others.
Also there is a certain problem of finding anybody to actually teach. Most of our experienced members have either quit or limited their gameplay to less than two hours a week, myself included; and the rest of the ground pvp community does not seem to be forthcoming.
That video is actually a good demonstration of something working correctly, chill itself is not a hold, the hold can be seen at 0:19 and 1:23 at the big red hold bar displaying, both of those hold-events only occurred while the "cold HOLD immunity" buff wasn't up.
"Oh nice the PvP Bootcamp Coach has 29 kits; i knew you had that many since you're cheating(kit switching) like crazy but that even surprised me
click here to see the exploiter in action
so ye thank you for making that video since it shows something that really needs fixing too" =P
You should see him use the doff swap to gain equip diag firepower boost and shield recharge 99 percent proc boost. This can be done in red alert as well.
If anything, that's proof of just how bad it is and serves as a justification for holding off on ground boot camp until such problems and issues are fixed.
i know..i was just giving 1 example there
LMAO...are you fcking kidding me?so you're defending the cheater by saying "oh yes he can cheat...it's not his fault..let's blame the game"
that exploit and many others used by those guys existed already before your pvp bootcamp
cheating never serves as a justification...it just shows how weak someone is by having to use exploits to keep up with the others :cool:
it's like in space pvp back then when people were flying around with 2 shields
some guys got exposed and got flamed like crazy for cheating
johnharrisonlol = Talon Jones
kyleatreides = Talon Jones
Talon Jones has 6 Banned Accounts now.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Now I know that it doesn't really matter what I say.
LOL banned yet I am able to post here. How does that work? Fail on your part bro! And you just assume I am Talon. I could come on here and say I am Jesus H Christ but would it be true? I could say you are Mikey. See what I did there? Funny how he totally ignores the exploit mention and yet goes completely off topic with some unrelated bs. BTW Hammer and I had fun owing you during your last mirror event. Keep on trucking best ground pvp fleet in the game LMAO:P Sorry to break your heart but kylea isn't me. Believe it or not you have many enemies who despise you and your fleet so don't assume every post that has people calling you guys out for exploits is just me.
Hmmm nice find.. this extreme cheating should really get handled.
Oh Tami it did get handled when I landed on a team with 3 of you and a pug a few weeks ago. Yet somehow a 5 man premade can't beat a 3 man premade with 2 pugs. Yet they are still the best ground pvp fleet in the game. HMMM! I enjoyed that very much! Thanks for your fleet's support in that match!
You yell and scream that it isn't you. Yet from the join date we can see that this account is very new and that in fact this is the first post on any forum by kyleatreides. You have tried convincing people that you are not Talon Jones so many times. You keep creating accounts as they get banned. I wonder how much money has Cryptic gotten from your banned accounts.
In the end it doesn't matter what anyone thinks cause that means nothing. I am completely free to play. I don't have to give the game any money since ground toons are easy to build and farmed dilthium provides more than what I need for those builds! However your lack of response to the exploits being mentioned tells me that you are derailing this thread to detract from all the cheating you do :P Cryptic in the future you guys need to do a little more screening before allowing certain people to coach boot camp.
Don't mind me,I'm just enjoying the show.:D
*hands the popcorn to Tami*
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