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The Problem with FvK and FvF
janewaywarrior
Member Posts: 93 Arc User
As many of you have noticed, there is not much in the way of FvK PvP outside of elite groups, Fleets, etc...
Klingon ships on average seem to be more powerful then Federation vessels on both turning speed and general damage. Obviously, not discounting that there are some very skilled PvPers on the Klingon side that use their ships well but this is not to point fingers but to address some of the problems with Klingon PvP so that hopefully this will encourage more people to do it.
There are problems with PvP in general that I would like to address here as well.
*disclaimer* These are opinions based on my observations over the last 3 years. Please do not start mouthing off but offer constructive argument. Who knows, you may be right. I'm not a believer in creating "elitism" in the game so I'll happily admit when I am wrong.
1) Klingon PvP is Boring = What I mean to say is that Klingon PvP follows a predictable pattern. I have been in several matches when ships will just decloak and hammer away at a poor ship, damaging it hopelessly beyond all point of healing.
2) Science Spam is not fun = One particular skill ruins PvP in general I think. I realise that this is NOT unique to the Klingon side. I am off course talking about "Subnuclonic Beam" which can often be the deciding factor in any match. Sub-Nuc simply put, does too much in removing all buffs and I propose a way to fix this.
Science Sub-Nuc = It only removes "healing" buffs such as Reverse Shield Polarity and Engineers should have the ability that reduces power as well as coupling with Aceton beam to remove tactical buffs.
Simply put, a certain fleet is terrible for this but Sub-Nuc spam has got to go. There has to be some protection from being sub-nuc'd multiple times.
Simply put, players need to have some sort of "code of honor" regarding certain abilities in PvP.
Now I've given some of my bugbears, lets hear yours...
Klingon ships on average seem to be more powerful then Federation vessels on both turning speed and general damage. Obviously, not discounting that there are some very skilled PvPers on the Klingon side that use their ships well but this is not to point fingers but to address some of the problems with Klingon PvP so that hopefully this will encourage more people to do it.
There are problems with PvP in general that I would like to address here as well.
*disclaimer* These are opinions based on my observations over the last 3 years. Please do not start mouthing off but offer constructive argument. Who knows, you may be right. I'm not a believer in creating "elitism" in the game so I'll happily admit when I am wrong.
1) Klingon PvP is Boring = What I mean to say is that Klingon PvP follows a predictable pattern. I have been in several matches when ships will just decloak and hammer away at a poor ship, damaging it hopelessly beyond all point of healing.
2) Science Spam is not fun = One particular skill ruins PvP in general I think. I realise that this is NOT unique to the Klingon side. I am off course talking about "Subnuclonic Beam" which can often be the deciding factor in any match. Sub-Nuc simply put, does too much in removing all buffs and I propose a way to fix this.
Science Sub-Nuc = It only removes "healing" buffs such as Reverse Shield Polarity and Engineers should have the ability that reduces power as well as coupling with Aceton beam to remove tactical buffs.
Simply put, a certain fleet is terrible for this but Sub-Nuc spam has got to go. There has to be some protection from being sub-nuc'd multiple times.
Simply put, players need to have some sort of "code of honor" regarding certain abilities in PvP.
Now I've given some of my bugbears, lets hear yours...
Post edited by janewaywarrior on
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Comments
The BoPs have higher turn rate, but that's not "on average" for KDF. What do you mean by "general" damage? KDF tends to focus more on burst damage while Feds have more potential for sustained damage if they can survive the initial burst. If you can make it through the first alpha then KDF ships end up running away much of the time so they aren't able to do much damage - not to mention their tendency to insta-plode which means...well...no damage.
A lot of people don't like FvK because they can't survive the alpha, which has less to do with KDF ships than it does their emphasis on offensive playstyles.
That being said, a large percentage of people fly lockbox ships so the KDF/UFP ship difference often doesn't play a part in the outcome of a match. Attitude and expectations, however, can decide the match before it even starts.
I doubt that this is a good generalisation. While this may be true for Klingon battlecruisers, this is certainly not so for raptors vs escorts. For example, Klingons have no 5-tac console raptors, while the Feds have 3. Raptors are also generally out-turned by escorts, with maximums of 16 (Fleet Som'raw) vs 15 (Defiant).
Birds of Prey are a different matter. They are generally outgunned by Federation escorts, and can be countered fairly easily with Federation science vessels.
Are you referring to KvK or KvF? In either case, I would hardly characterise being hit by multiple alphas as being "damaged hopelessly". It is in such focus-fire alpha scenarios that teamwork comes into play. In order to compensate for damage from multiple ships, it is necessary for healing from multiple ships. Is this not logical?
In the case of getting alpha-striked by a single ship, if one is alert, one can tank the initial strike fairly easily, with the aid of various resistance buffs, and RSP. Buffing up can be heard, and that is the cue for a quick Sensor Scan and putting up basic defensive buffs.
If a single ship is getting sequentially alpha-striked, healing should be staggered, and the team should begin focusing fire themselves. In essence, countering is fairly easily done with teamwork.
Subnuke is necessary for what it does. Bear in mind that it can be cleared easily using Sci Team, which any healer worth their salt would carry. If one person is being repeatedly subnuked, it is time for everyone to begin tossing heals on that person, and for that person to go fully defensive on his/her energy levels. Again, teamwork is the key here. In the event of the enemy team carrying sufficient subnukes to paint your entire team, they are not going to be capable of the spike damage that a Tactical would have. As such, it would be time for your team to begin spamming Sci Teams and RSP.
Furthermore, one should imagine what things would be like without the existence of Subnuke. Without it, games would be a plain-Jane cycle of damage and heal. In effect, things would be boring without Sci spam. Without it, Tacs would be the undisputed kings of the battlefield.
Subnuke also carries an opportunity cost. To have it, you need a Sci, and so you lose a Tac' Attack Pattern Alpha. This significantly reduces the spike that the team can have as a whole. One might argue that having Subnuke removes the need for spike, but I doubt that, as passive healing is very powerful at the moment. Also, Subnuke's effect can be cleared, but the additional damage from an Attack Pattern Alpha cannot.
Subnuke also carries a 2-minute cooldown, but is countered by an ability that has a 30-second cooldown. Given that the counter can also be cast by team members, it is not truly unbalanced.
While I disagree with your characterisation of Subnuc as OP, this is an interesting change nonetheless. However, it would be very difficult to categorise abilities like Tactical Team under "healing" or "tactical".
Science Team is supposed to provide immunity for a certain amount of time, but I do not know if it works. If it did, then there would be protection.
As for a "code of honor", such a thing cannot be enforced or maintained in the queues. It is a zero-sum game, where the first offender would escalate circumstances and cause the problem to re-occur.
As for private tournaments, there tend to be agreements, but there is always much debate over this. Things are not necessarily as black-and-white as you make them out to be.
That said, although a code of honor would be a nice thing to have, Subnuke should not be a part of it.
In essence, although your points may be possibly valid in a 1v1 scenario, many of your arguments break down with the presence of teamwork and alertness.
What do I mean?
Federation is more likely to get C-store goodies that could be considered "Pay to Win".
Federation is more likely to get Content because there is a larger portion of the player base playing Federation side.
Federation has more and some times better Escorts then the Klingons version, the Raptor.
Federation has more, and most of the time better Science ships since the Klingons only have 1.
Klingons have more of the "Broken" or "Overpowered" Consoles and Carrier Pets. (Which slowly changes with each newly introduced Lockbox)
Klingons have more Cloak ships. But sacrifice Hull and Shield power for Cloak.
The Federation is currently the epitome of the song anything you can do I can do better.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
i played pvp as a fed for quite awhile. i consider myself a middle of the pack pvp player. i am use to losing against the klingons probably at least 7 out of 10 times. as a fed i have the best ships, best gear, best consoles, etc.
now recently i have started playing my level 50 klingon alt. i use mk xi weapons on a peghqu' destroyer. i absolutely destroy the fed in pvp. my klingon team in pvp just about always wins.
based on this simple observation i am thinking there is definitely a balance issue which i'm sure is no surprise to anyone.
Best Power Drain: KDF
Best Value Cheese: KDF
Best Ships: Fed (well, non faction are - but if you're comparing Fed vs. KDF)
If it were the first three each and every single FvK match - then I could definitely see the complaint. Unfortunately, it is rarely that case. Outside of a few Premades that just like to ROFLstomp PUGs, most KDF know that if they go that route - nobody will queue. So they don't.
They just beat the Feds with better skill and better teamwork while using inferior ships.
I once did a couple of pvp matches on my feds, got steamrolled, went back to pve. Then got bored with pve, and I tried pvp some more, this time on my KDF's, mostly. It still wasn't pretty.
Then I read up on builds and tactics, practised hard, tried different things and eventually got better. I now fly BoP's, Battlecruisers, Carriers and the occasional Raptor, with various degrees of success, but definitely pulling my weight. Flying my ships of choice I tend to approach the top of charts in damage and kills, now, even though I'm most definitely not a top KDF player. I was pleased when my tac in a BoP started to get top score in kills/damage, once in a while.
Now, here's the kicker. I recently checked back on my feds, with the knowledge I now had. I found I had accidentally gotten them decent traits (elusive, accurate, etc), and that I got them all the pre-S7 mk xii rep Sets, and various sets of mk xii [borg] weaponry - not perfect, but definitely competitive to the stuff I use on my KDF's.
I set up some decent builds, queued up on my tac, and my team lost big time. Tried again, wiped again. Both times I was the top damage dealer/killer, easily. Still, we got wiped big time because there was no inkling of team play or cohesion. I called targets, but nobody responded or acted on them. If I didn't, nobody else did, and everybody got picked off one by one - by packs of 2-3 KDF players.
Got the same experience queueing up on my sci and eng. Both still topping the charts quite often, and generally surviving alpha's my team members didn't - I like to think that's because I have in-depth experience in decloaking alpha strikes.
For me, there are two main differences between fed and kdf in open queue pvp.
1: the cloak, which lets you (KDF players and potentially those flying Defiants and Gal-X's) decide when to strike, giving you an edge, even though you generally give up precious survivability as a trade-off.
and 2: teamwork. And this one is the most important one, in my opinion. Almost all KDF queued matches I'm in has people calling targets, and if they don't, I will. Additionally, there's often crosshealing occurring naturally and people zipping over to get a teammate's attacker. These things hardly ever happen in open queued fed teams, in my experience. Even when I call targets it's only 1 or 2 people at best who focus fire.
Believe me, when Fed teams have good teamwork going, the kdf ships suddenly aren't that overpowered.
Starfleet may have more ships, but it's not like it's giving them any more options than the KDF...
Fleet defiant's decloaking alfa and /or the new kumari shield stripping overload hit are in my opinion the the best shield punchers in this moment.
Best value Cheese :except aceton's ( i don't have them btw) and leech,all other consoles are available to federation at a much lower price.On kdf side you have to buy a c-store ship for a console ,as fed you can buy it from exchange very cheap.
Best power drain :here it is again the comparison between siphon drones and danubes.Which are worse ? Hard to tell.Both will stop you and wreck your play.
About the ship I agree that kdf would need some better punching ships than it has now.That is one of the reasons that most of PVP is done in lockboxes in this moment.(Best "raptor" =fleet defiant ,Best c-store sci =vesta ,Best c-store hec =armitage)
KDF battlecruiser's are nice and are considered better than federation counterpart.(I don't know,I didn't use them)
Bops are nice but you have to use a hit and run tactic with them and I personaly dislike this strategy.The veteran destroyer is a good ship but you have to pay a LTS for flying it.
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
I think you are missing the point of my post. I'm not saying someone is better/worse or OP/not OP. Just that FvK matches are unfun, compared to what they have been 2 years ago. And when I blame P2W consoles, I generally blame both sides.
I spent a lot of zen in my fed days before I made Klingon characters and left it behind
Reason for leaving behind - Feds don't PVP at the times I do well the ones who know how to actually build a half decent ship
The Feds role in with their oddys hitting you with plasma beams lolz and antimatter spreads with graviton pulses and once you've laughed that off they pop
Partly down to the fact their simple inexperienced and the rest of their team are Afkers and leachers
Not saying all Feds are like this because there are good players out there but I'm yet to find a set of them Who can work in tandom with each other like the empire
Gonna call bull**** here.
The only thing that a Bird of Prey is missing in terms of BOff slots is the Ensign; total console slots are identical in number, and there is a significant turn rate advantage. I think I also forgot to mention how all of it's BOff slots are universal... point is, the Bird of Prey is its own kind of ship, and should not be compared to Federation escorts. Both work very differently from each other.
Also gonna say that the Feds don't have complete access to what the Klingons have in terms of Universal Consoles (and should stay that way). But I must note just how restrictive or how subpar a lot of Federation Universal Consoles are, and that Klingons have access to the most useful ones on the Federation side.
That being said, I don't like to play the game of petty rivalry between the KDF and Starfleet. I'll say this much though: KDF may suffer from neglect, but at least their captains aren't forced into playing second fiddle to one category of ship.
i do like it, but whenever one of the following comes in it's done with the fun for me:
-interceptors (way too fast and effective!)
-acetons
-da leech thing
-(add your fav)
thx.
One of the following - the leech thing
Every Kdf runs one or should be takes from 10 to 20 power from enemy hip depending how flow cap rating is specced
How is that game breaking?
The rest I've never used but the aceton assimilate is easily killed by toros and will only do damage if some nut is spamming bfaw around it the drain is negligible
Kumari 5 fore weapon slots 5 tax consoles insane spike
Danubes easily the most OP pet there is without doubt if used correctly
Graviton beam - 50s of say getting pummelled easily the most rediculious power that has existed on sto(not sure if this is LSD also as I've never used it or seen it but damn its fu%?ing annoying)
Do you think I cry into my pillow if I see one of these being used... no!!! I work around them adapt...
... can live with that. and if there're 5 klinks running it, i can easiliy die by that ^^...
sorry, but disagree here. if only one player is bringing them you may be right. but about 3 players spamming acetons in the heat of a fight... nothing to add... this an experience. nothing less, nothing more.
you just want them too :P
totally disagreeing here. fought advanced danubes and -interceptors several times. danubes are easily countered by several abilities and have a shared cd on their tb.
i never got the impression while attacked by interceptors that they ever stop draining ^^.... also they're much (!) faster than danubes, so it's mostly almost impossible to evade them proper...
...it's the 3set bonus on omega or maco set, right? available to klinks now too, isn't it?!...
sorry, but when posting my statement i didn't thought of you at all ^^...i did thought about the things that keep me away most of the time from fvk, just what the op asked for.
this has nothing to deal with the ability to adapt or not to adapt (i already killed some klinks
Playing against klingons is fine until these 2 players show up:
1.) The aceton ***** who will clutter the field of battle with those things.
2.) The Orion Interceptor *****, most likely in a karfi but nowadays often enough in recluses or jemdreads or JEC's who will send those broken ****s after you which will kill your mobility dead the moment they touch you.
Once either of those show up the fights gets intolerable and turns from a fun fight into a grinding exercise of futility.
Subnuc spam is endemic to all of pvp and not specific to klinker pvp.
Also: klingon cruisers are fun to fly and effective secondary damage dealers. Fed cruisers are not. Noone likes an uneven playing field.
The FvK is strong with this one.
(as with most STO pvp occuring in the forums only)
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
Sci in a Krenn using EF Disruptors (DBB, DHCs, Turrets - BO/CRF), Tet Glider, Leech, DOFF'd Tractor, Tach Beam is the fastest my shields have gone down with the additional fun of them dropping out the SNB/VM and Sensor Scan as the shields disappeared for additional hull action along with the HDR proc.
Even just the EFDs, Tet Glider, and Leech - you're looking at lowering the SDR from the EFDs and Leech in combination with the stripping of Glider.
I think it's because of the way the EFD's SDR debuff is being calculated - still trying to get somebody to confirm how it is working/supposed to be working.
AMS...
1500 Zen for a Fed - 623k EC (ran at 100-200k for the longest time)
1500 Zen ~= 12 Keys or 19.8m
1500 Zen ~= 3 FSMs or 15m
Even up at 623k EC, vs 15-20m EC - that's a good value.
I figure folks are buying up all the crossfaction consoles in anticipation of LoR...get 'em while they're hot!
Nah, the comparison isn't between ASDs and ADRs.
The comparison is between:
Tyken's, Energy Siphon, some form of Polarons...
...where one side also has ASDs, AAs, and Leech.
Was just about Drain.
Battle Cruisers are fat Escorts, heh - can't really compare Battle Cruisers and Cruisers - they're just so far apart. Meh, but Geko continues to talk about the Andorian Battle Cruiser for the Feds somewhere down the line. So even that is likely to disappear as well.
The Fleet Somraw gives up 1 turn, 1 Tac console (for a Sci console), picks up an En Eng instead of that third En Tac, has a 0.02 better shield modifier, and 1650 more base hull. Think a lot of folks look at the Fleet Qin vs. Fleet Defiant - looking at the BOFF layout - but the Qin gives up 2 turn and 10 inertia...regardless of the +0.02 shield mod/+3300 base hull/-1 Tac console/+1 Eng console...it's going to be that 2 turn/10 inertia I think most folks have felt. Cryptic definitely underestimates the value of turn/inertia...meh.
Fleet Defiant vs. Fleet Qin is brutally painful to look at...meh.
Fleet Defiant vs. Fleet Somraw though - that potential for full uptime on EPtS1/EPtW1 as well as the additional Sci console (or Uni console)...I think piloting could overcome the 1 less turn. Heck, add in that you can get the Somraw at T2 vs. Defiant at T3...
...but that's just paper, I fly none of those three.
It's kind of funny with BoPs, sometimes it's fighting for 15s and then cloaking again...sometimes it's not cloaking again. You're easily looking at 80-150% or more Bonus Defense - multiple ways to deal with Tractors - multiple ways to deal an inability to cloak for the short term. Creating BoPping can be fun.
Still, in the end I believe that the Feds have the edge - because most KDF that want to PvP actually want to PvP...they know if they go overboard with stuff, the Feds won't queue - there won't be any PvP. Because of that, they play at a certain disadvantage that they readily make up via skill/experience and teamwork. Most Feds complaining about the KDF are complaining about the wrong thing. They're likely even complaining about things that just arent happening or things they do not understand...it's a crutch complaint.
A buddy of mine in game once told me that the 5th console wasn't a huge deal and I tested it for myself and agreed. I tested it again the other day for some numbers between 4 and 5 tac consoles on a F-Defiant using XI purple consoles. The toon had 9 in weapons training, 9 in energy weapons, and the +30 weapons training passive. I got 6.19% difference in DPS for adding a 5th tac console.
As a comparison, it seems most klinks and/or klink teams I run into use leech if not something stronger or a combination of all of them. Apparently some openly advocate it. If I'm pugging or in Kerat, I assume it will be there. Last time I 1v1'd someone in Kerat, I commented on the leech and he said even against someone with 9 ranks in insulators it 'only' does about 9 subsystem drain. That makes far more of a difference than one tac console. Here's why (and correct my math if you feel it's wrong):
Theoretically, in attack mode, a tac's weapons power starts at 125. If he is being leeched and has 9 in insulators, that would bring weapons power to a starting point of 116. Knowing that every 1 level of weapon power below 125 is a 2% reduction in DPS, the math is simple. So, -9 power x 2% = a -18% hit in DPS. 18% - the ~6% bonus from a 5th console = a 12% deficiency, 12/6=2. Seems feds are owed 2 more tac consoles.
That's just weapons though. How about everything else?
Shields: Every point above 50 increases regeneration by 4% and every point under 50 reduces regen by 4%. So, -9*4 = -36% reduction in regen. Perhaps feds should get 3 more sci consoles to slot 3 emitter amplifiers to make up for the drop in regen.
Engines: Every point of power above 50 represents a 2% increase in speed.Every point below 50 is a 2% decrease in base speed. So, -9x2 = -18% reduction in general speed. A XI Blue Injector Assembly provides +3.5 power to engines subsystem. 9 power/3.5 per console = 2.57. I guess the feds need a couple more engineering consoles to slot injectors.
Auxiliary: Every point above 50 increases the potency of sci abilities by 2%. Every point below 50 does the reverse and drops the modifier of the ability by 0.6%. So, using the same math from the engines example,-9x2 = -18% effectiveness, to make up for it, use Booster Modulators which also provide 3.5 power for a XI blue. 9/3.5 = 2.57. Again, toss in a couple more engineering consoles to slot booster modulators.
Keeping the comparison in terms of consoles, assume the Fed is flying a Fleet Defiant, he starts with a 3/2/5 console setup. Being leeched brings him down to a -7/-1/2 console setup.
What about the Klink shooting at him though? Assuming he gets that +9 power from leeching and he's in a Fleet Qin, he's got a 13/5/7 setup. [13 Engineering = 4 base + 2.5 * 4 bonus from leech - 1 spot for leech; 5 Sci = 2 base + 3 bonus from leech; 7 Weapon console = 4 base + 3 bonus from leech.]
That's probably about best case scenario. What if it goes to it's full -15 drain/boost or more because of flow caps? Or worse, what if it's something like aceton where the opponent is gimpped at 12 power until they can crawl out of range?
A group asked me to team up Fed side with them the other day and they q'd FvK. Both matches turned out to be against a team which I am buddies with 3 of the 5. They don't use these items. It was nice playing FvK without all of that stuff. It seemed very Star Trek.
Nice sumup f00k, i agree that with full spec u can get a 20/30 power level difference between target and self. Thats pretty good for just 1 console.
I see no issue with such tactics.
A well timed SNB is a valid tactic as well and is big part of any premade team in the Arenas.
The arenas are the only place where KDF participation seems low as CnHs and Kerrat are always popping well as a KDF player.
I see no issues with KDF toys as most are now crossfactional.
The leech doesnt strime me as bad at all since anyone with any amount of decent Power insulators can make the drain effects all but unnoticed by the target in game.
R.I.P
Fed ships on the other hand? Insanity.
I say this as a fed primary.
There's a reason all the top fleets are Fed.
The biggest problem with Feds, are most of them are bad. Like so bad that I question if they even installed the game by themselves.
There are some dumb KDFers too. But the Feds? Seriously, the game has been out for over 3 years. And some players -still- won't even balance their shields or still stupidly use boarding party.
Very very good post captainf00k.
Well said, and a perfect summary.
This.
The KvK queues are dead for the same reason FvK limps along in comparison to FvF.