You are 100% correct. And might I add the complaining players made when Gecko said the Ambassador would be a T5 ship. The Miranda is no different. While Miranda is certainly *old*... What's the harm in having a T5 Fleet version? That conclusion comes mostly on the notion that the old grandmother Excelsior has no business being a T5 ship. (1) refit Lakota did not mean all Excelsior's were refit to be the best T5 Cruiser in-game.
Now, with having said that, a Fleet Miranda isn't so far-fetched now is it?
The Miranda was already considered an elderly garbage scow when the first Ambassador rolled off the production line.
The Miranda was always a poor, unversatile design that needs an external fitting just to mount a torpedo launcher.
Logically, a Miranda is not the equal of an Ambassador, or a Saber, or an Excelsior, or even a Constitution. It's an old ship who's time has long since past. Let the rust bucket rest in pieces.
At risk of being redundant, there is no reason why a t5 Miranda has to be hundreds of years old. It could be a totally new ship built with the same look as a classic. It happens all the time in the car world, why not starships?
Because building a re-creation of an obsolete design for combat, and having said recreation be as effective as contemporary ships designed for combat, is a fundamentally different task than building a recreation of a few decades old car.
It's the equivalent of asking for a replica Model-T that is capable of keeping pace with a Formula 1 race car.
I would like too see the miranda retrofit with some special wep maybe antiproton.:cool: She would have maybe medium hull size, big shields,and very good turn rate because its a small size ship .:P
I was thinking more like the Armatage then a straight remake... Anyway I forgot how tightly people cling to their notions of what must be true in a fictional universe... I think I'll just step away...
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I was thinking more like the Armatage then a straight remake... Anyway I forgot how tightly people cling to their notions of what must be true in a fictional universe... I think I'll just step away...
I often find some people just don't have to capacity to understand the concept of verisimilitude.
So sad.
It was used as cannon fodder.
Watching DS9's battles, I'm fairly sure the Federation's battle strategy was to clog Jem'hadar cruisers with so much Miranda debris that they'd be more vulnerable to the rest of the fleet.
Before that in TNG, Mirandas were little more than cargo ships.
Of course it was used as cannon-fodder, since a miranda ship was almost sure to be one-shot by a galor or a jem'hadar ship. Miranda crews were... Expandable.
And in TNG Mirandas were also used for scientific missions. This is why I mentioned planetary surveys.
Age has nothing to do with this. As shown in the Path to 2409, none of these ships are from the time period their designs originate from. They are all 25th Century ships, with the appearance of older ships as a visual. This is also explained in the novel, The Needs of the Many. The ships are modular 25th century designs, but some of them have retro appearances.
"Letting people fly what they like" is what has turned Star Trek Online from a continuation of the Star Trek world into a Star Trek theme park where ships are flown with no rhyme or reason.
Hell I get into so many groups with Jem'hadar ships they might as well rename this to Dominion Online.
Since the game is already in this state, continuing to keep people from flying a small group of ships like the Miranda, is pointless. At least if people were flying Mirandas at T5, there'd be less dominion ships being flown.
In short, this ship has already sailed. Arguing against it? Why? Because you feel the Jem'Hadar ship and Breen ship you just got grouped with are more authentic a T5 Starfleet vessel than the Miranda the OP wants to fly?
Well the Miranda class was still used late in the 24th century so why not, but I'd prefer seeing this ship filling a non-combat role, whatever this role is btw. It could be tied to a new kind of gameplay - let's say planetary surveys or whatever new kind of mission we could get.
Age has nothing to do with this. As shown in the Path to 2409, none of these ships are from the time period their designs originate from. They are all 25th Century ships, with the appearance of older ships as a visual. This is also explained in the novel, The Needs of the Many. The ships are modular 25th century designs, but some of them have retro appearances.
Being built in the 25th century with 25th century materials does not make it a 25th century design.
It is a 23rd century design, brought up to date. But here's the thing. Bringing it up to date gets you.. a T0 frigate. It's already been retrofitted, and that's the best it can do.
Sometimes, an old design just cannot be improved any further.
Oh and on the subject of surveys on and non combat missions.. yeah.. but why do you need a fleet t5 for that?
Being built in the 25th century with 25th century materials does not make it a 25th century design.
It is a 23rd century design, brought up to date. But here's the thing. Bringing it up to date gets you.. a T0 frigate. It's already been retrofitted, and that's the best it can do.
As has already been established by the game's very own documentation, these ships are all 25th century ships. What you see on the outside is just a visual. This is explained in the Path to 2409 and in the official Star Trek Online novel, The Needs of the Many. The people who cracked this puzzle were Geordi LaForge and Miles O'Brien. Two rather effective engineering characters from the past shows.
The game's lore set it up so old ships can be flown at the end-game. Your argument doesn't work in the context of the game. That's why there's an Excelsior at T5. And a D'Kyr. And why the KDF can fly a B'Rel and an Archer Era RAPTOR at T5. Because the looks have nothing to do with the ship.
Sometimes, an old design just cannot be improved any further.
This game already created its own ex machina to sidestep that. Way back on day 1.
Because building a re-creation of an obsolete design for combat, and having said recreation be as effective as contemporary ships designed for combat, is a fundamentally different task than building a recreation of a few decades old car.
It's the equivalent of asking for a replica Model-T that is capable of keeping pace with a Formula 1 race car.
As established in the game's own documentation, the ships are contemporary and competitive. Be it a D'Kyr, a B'rel, or even a Miranda.
The game started you off in a Miranda and had you shoot down Borg ships. Ship Tier is irrelevant. And always has been. These ships are modern and up to date. They don't follow any sort of hierarchy. And never have. You have a Galaxy, an Ambassador, a Galaxy X from an alternate timeline, a Sovereign, and even an Odyssey all at the top tier. That doesn't follow the pattern you are trying to map onto the game's ships. A Miranda can do whatever at T5, just like any other ship. It's just a visual. You're clinging to some sort of structure that this game never ascribed to.
Read what I said. I don't care when they were built, the space frame is a 23rd century design.
It doesn't matter what magitech you come up with, you cannot overcome basic flaws with the design, such as the lack of integral torpedo launchers.
If they have Fleet Nova and Fleet Sabre there is no good reason to not have a Fleet Miranda.
What is it that Riker said in the Final Episode. The Enterprise would have been moth-balled; but Admirals get to choose their Flag Ship.
We are Admirals - Let us fly what we want.
I really am not that interested in Fleet ships, because I want bang for my buck.
Usually buy C-Store for Account Wide Unlock. But I would consider buying one of these.
Designed by Mark Rademaker, the man responsible for the awesome (in my opinion) Vesta class. It's a contemporary of the Vesta class, appears in the Voyager relaunch books and is of a design not entirely dissimilar to the old Miranda class (and was likely designed for a similar role).
My god, that is a ship uglier than the space tadpole! (Olympic) ...how is that even possible?
If you make a t5 miranda - make it a miranda - kitbashed, the ship is good looking enough to need little work (well, maybe chuck the pylons and nacelles from the usshan in if they line up) but for a boff setup... maybe ltc tac, ltc eng, ltc sci, universal ltc? Keep it in line with its 'beginners anything can work' mentality as it was a curious cruiser/escort/semi sci hybrid imo
Logically, a Miranda is not the equal of an Ambassador, or a Saber, or an Excelsior, or even a Constitution. It's an old ship who's time has long since past. Let the rust bucket rest in pieces.
not an equal of the connie huh? I think khan would beg to differ
As has already been established by the game's very own documentation, these ships are all 25th century ships. What you see on the outside is just a visual. This is explained in the Path to 2409 and in the official Star Trek Online novel, The Needs of the Many. The people who cracked this puzzle were Geordi LaForge and Miles O'Brien. Two rather effective engineering characters from the past shows.
I'm just going to point out the hilarity of using novels as "canon sources". Do you have any idea how much absolutely absurd **** happens in Trek novels? Secondly, the 2409 entry you're citing makes zero reference to functionality.
And the Starfleet Corps of Engineers added the final elements to a long-term plan to construct starships using a modular system. This construction method allows ship captains to customize their ships and permits quick repairs.
"A captain can choose new components for his or her ship and our work crews can have them installed and ready to go in less than half the time of conventional ship construction," said spokesperson Marie Durant. "A damaged ship can get replacement parts from another Starfleet vessel, and the engineers don't have to worry about them not fitting or not working. This system means our crews can do more, stay in the field longer and have the ships they need to do their jobs."
Absolutely zilch in there about allowing outdated vessels to suddenly and magically outperform modern designs.
The game's lore set it up so old ships can be flown at the end-game. Your argument doesn't work in the context of the game. That's why there's an Excelsior at T5. And a D'Kyr. And why the KDF can fly a B'Rel and an Archer Era RAPTOR at T5. Because the looks have nothing to do with the ship.
Just because something happens, doesn't mean it should happen. And frankly, the majority of ships you're citing (specifically the Klingon ships) are symptomatic of Cryptic's laziness more than anything else. Instead of actually making new klink ships, they recycled old ones.
None of which changes the fact that outdated ships (yes that includes the Excelsior and Ambassador) should never have been T5 options.
Read what I said. I don't care when they were built, the space frame is a 23rd century design.
It doesn't matter what magitech you come up with, you cannot overcome basic flaws with the design, such as the lack of integral torpedo launchers.
I'm just going to point out the hilarity of using novels as "canon sources". Do you have any idea how much absolutely absurd **** happens in Trek novels? Secondly, the 2409 entry you're citing makes zero reference to functionality.
Absolutely zilch in there about allowing outdated vessels to suddenly and magically outperform modern designs.
Just because something happens, doesn't mean it should happen. And frankly, the majority of ships you're citing (specifically the Klingon ships) are symptomatic of Cryptic's laziness more than anything else. Instead of actually making new klink ships, they recycled old ones.
None of which changes the fact that outdated ships (yes that includes the Excelsior and Ambassador) should never have been T5 options.
I'm sorry, who ended up blown to pieces and who sailed off into the sunset?
"Letting people fly what they like" is what has turned Star Trek Online from a continuation of the Star Trek world into a Star Trek theme park where ships are flown with no rhyme or reason.
Hell I get into so many groups with Jem'hadar ships they might as well rename this to Dominion Online.
Oh snaaaaaap, Dominion Online... that's very lulzy....
Read what I said. I don't care when they were built, the space frame is a 23rd century design.
It doesn't matter what magitech you come up with, you cannot overcome basic flaws with the design, such as the lack of integral torpedo launchers.
The space frame for the T1 Miranda you fly was built in the 25th century. And they already fixed any flaws you think are there. Why? SPACE MAGIC! That's how Cryptic explained it.
Actually, while there have been some dominion ships about, the game has turned into Vesta/Dread/Ody/Adno scort Online from where I stand. Yeah, I see a lot of the fancy new lockbox ships sitting in port around ESD, but in ESTF the vast majority lately have been these ships. An occasional Dread Carrier for me to out DPS in my Atrox for giggles (pilot skill, not ship strength, I'm fairly certain I would be ripping things apart in one of those beasts...) or a fleet defiant or 2.
KDF seems to be almost all VQ's anymore... not that I can blame them...
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Okay, there are two camps on this topic. The first believes that a Tier-5 Miranda would be an abomination, unrealistic and destroy any feel of realism. The second believes that people should be able to play whatever they want.
If they add a Tier-5 Miranda they would make a slim minority of players happy for a small effort and those in the first camp would be angry. If they failed to add a Tier-5 Miranda then they'd disappoint that slim minority of players, but would they atleast make the first camp happy? Nope, that first camp is going to be TRIBBLE butt hurt over Tier-5 Sabres, Tier-5 Olympics and all sorts of other things that have happened since this whole situation started.
So, developers, make the Fleet Miranda a science vessel, sure you'll TRIBBLE of some people, but they're already pretty angry. And you just might make the OP's day.
I'm just going to point out the hilarity of using novels as "canon sources". Do you have any idea how much absolutely absurd **** happens in Trek novels?
1- This game isn't Canon.
2- That novel is STO CANON. Because it's called the official novel of Star Trek Online and because the timenline and content were approved by both CBS and Cryptic.
See the difference? The novel is canon for this game. Not canon for Star Trek. Canon for Star Trek Online.
Secondly, the 2409 entry you're citing makes zero reference to functionality.
It does reference functionality. Both in the timeline and in the Geordi chapter. They establish that captains in 2409 can alter their ships, using the modular "ex machina" that O'Brien and Starfleet Corps of Engineers whipped up, to suit the captains' individual tastes. This includes the visual appearance. Which is all this annoying debate is ever about.
Absolutely zilch in there about allowing outdated vessels to suddenly and magically outperform modern designs.
These AREN'T outdated vessels. That's what the Path establishes. They are modern vessels.
None of which changes the fact that outdated ships (yes that includes the Excelsior and Ambassador) should never have been T5 options.
They are. They are T5. That ship has sailed. At this point, as I stated, you're clinging to some sort of hierarchy that does not exist in this game. So it can't be applied to this game.
I have no problem personally with a Tier 5 Miranda, or Connie, or anything else...
Honestly, all I have to add to this rather heated discussion is...
Can we take a break from new ships for awhile?
I mean, there's been a LOT of new ships put in the game the past months during season 7. Maybe it's time for a break?
(I will say I'd rather see the Merion and/or Planck class over the Miranda. I never really liked the Miranda's look. Though we do have a '25th century' looking version of the Miranda in the umm...'Vulcan name'-class variant)
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
2- That novel is STO CANON. Because it's called the official novel of Star Trek Online and because the timenline and content were approved by both CBS and Cryptic.
See the difference? The novel is canon for this game. Not canon for Star Trek. Canon for Star Trek Online.
Translation: only what I want to use to support my argument is canon.
It does reference functionality. Both in the timeline and in the Geordi chapter. They establish that captains in 2409 can alter their ships, using the modular "ex machina" that O'Brien and Starfleet Corps of Engineers whipped up, to suit the captains' individual tastes. This includes the visual appearance. Which is all this annoying debate is ever about.
I've quoted the timeline entry for a second time. Please highlight for me anything that relates to functionality and giant leaps in ship performance.
And the Starfleet Corps of Engineers added the final elements to a long-term plan to construct starships using a modular system. This construction method allows ship captains to customize their ships and permits quick repairs.
"A captain can choose new components for his or her ship and our work crews can have them installed and ready to go in less than half the time of conventional ship construction," said spokesperson Marie Durant. "A damaged ship can get replacement parts from another Starfleet vessel, and the engineers don't have to worry about them not fitting or not working. This system means our crews can do more, stay in the field longer and have the ships they need to do their jobs."
They are. They are T5. That ship has sailed. At this point, as I stated, you're clinging to some sort of hierarchy that does not exist in this game. So it can't be applied to this game.
And we're back to "i'm already wrong, let's go for more wrongness".
The Nova is used as an example because it's a T2 ship that they made into a T5 ship with the fleet variant.
Which means the "tier" the ship is at when you first encounter it doesn't prohibit the ship from having a T5 fleet variant.
The AGE debate is a different line of debate. But things like the D'Kyr are stellar examples of how the age debate falls flat.
There is no restriction that can't be overcome. Cryptic's already proven that. The next ship I believe Geko mentioned might be coming down the line for the Federation is the New Orleans class. The New Orleans class. That's not exactly 25th Century PWNage in action.
Comments
The Miranda was already considered an elderly garbage scow when the first Ambassador rolled off the production line.
The Miranda was always a poor, unversatile design that needs an external fitting just to mount a torpedo launcher.
Logically, a Miranda is not the equal of an Ambassador, or a Saber, or an Excelsior, or even a Constitution. It's an old ship who's time has long since past. Let the rust bucket rest in pieces.
Because building a re-creation of an obsolete design for combat, and having said recreation be as effective as contemporary ships designed for combat, is a fundamentally different task than building a recreation of a few decades old car.
It's the equivalent of asking for a replica Model-T that is capable of keeping pace with a Formula 1 race car.
Planck/Fleet Planck? +1 vote
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
If only STO looked that nice. And it's definitely possible with current high end computers.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
I often find some people just don't have to capacity to understand the concept of verisimilitude.
So sad.
Of course it was used as cannon-fodder, since a miranda ship was almost sure to be one-shot by a galor or a jem'hadar ship. Miranda crews were... Expandable.
And in TNG Mirandas were also used for scientific missions. This is why I mentioned planetary surveys.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Age has nothing to do with this. As shown in the Path to 2409, none of these ships are from the time period their designs originate from. They are all 25th Century ships, with the appearance of older ships as a visual. This is also explained in the novel, The Needs of the Many. The ships are modular 25th century designs, but some of them have retro appearances.
Since the game is already in this state, continuing to keep people from flying a small group of ships like the Miranda, is pointless. At least if people were flying Mirandas at T5, there'd be less dominion ships being flown.
In short, this ship has already sailed. Arguing against it? Why? Because you feel the Jem'Hadar ship and Breen ship you just got grouped with are more authentic a T5 Starfleet vessel than the Miranda the OP wants to fly?
Non combat missions already exist.
Being built in the 25th century with 25th century materials does not make it a 25th century design.
It is a 23rd century design, brought up to date. But here's the thing. Bringing it up to date gets you.. a T0 frigate. It's already been retrofitted, and that's the best it can do.
Sometimes, an old design just cannot be improved any further.
Oh and on the subject of surveys on and non combat missions.. yeah.. but why do you need a fleet t5 for that?
As has already been established by the game's very own documentation, these ships are all 25th century ships. What you see on the outside is just a visual. This is explained in the Path to 2409 and in the official Star Trek Online novel, The Needs of the Many. The people who cracked this puzzle were Geordi LaForge and Miles O'Brien. Two rather effective engineering characters from the past shows.
The game's lore set it up so old ships can be flown at the end-game. Your argument doesn't work in the context of the game. That's why there's an Excelsior at T5. And a D'Kyr. And why the KDF can fly a B'Rel and an Archer Era RAPTOR at T5. Because the looks have nothing to do with the ship.
This game already created its own ex machina to sidestep that. Way back on day 1.
As established in the game's own documentation, the ships are contemporary and competitive. Be it a D'Kyr, a B'rel, or even a Miranda.
The game started you off in a Miranda and had you shoot down Borg ships. Ship Tier is irrelevant. And always has been. These ships are modern and up to date. They don't follow any sort of hierarchy. And never have. You have a Galaxy, an Ambassador, a Galaxy X from an alternate timeline, a Sovereign, and even an Odyssey all at the top tier. That doesn't follow the pattern you are trying to map onto the game's ships. A Miranda can do whatever at T5, just like any other ship. It's just a visual. You're clinging to some sort of structure that this game never ascribed to.
It doesn't matter what magitech you come up with, you cannot overcome basic flaws with the design, such as the lack of integral torpedo launchers.
What is it that Riker said in the Final Episode. The Enterprise would have been moth-balled; but Admirals get to choose their Flag Ship.
We are Admirals - Let us fly what we want.
I really am not that interested in Fleet ships, because I want bang for my buck.
Usually buy C-Store for Account Wide Unlock. But I would consider buying one of these.
My god, that is a ship uglier than the space tadpole! (Olympic) ...how is that even possible?
If you make a t5 miranda - make it a miranda - kitbashed, the ship is good looking enough to need little work (well, maybe chuck the pylons and nacelles from the usshan in if they line up) but for a boff setup... maybe ltc tac, ltc eng, ltc sci, universal ltc? Keep it in line with its 'beginners anything can work' mentality as it was a curious cruiser/escort/semi sci hybrid imo
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not an equal of the connie huh? I think khan would beg to differ
I'm just going to point out the hilarity of using novels as "canon sources". Do you have any idea how much absolutely absurd **** happens in Trek novels? Secondly, the 2409 entry you're citing makes zero reference to functionality.
Absolutely zilch in there about allowing outdated vessels to suddenly and magically outperform modern designs.
Just because something happens, doesn't mean it should happen. And frankly, the majority of ships you're citing (specifically the Klingon ships) are symptomatic of Cryptic's laziness more than anything else. Instead of actually making new klink ships, they recycled old ones.
None of which changes the fact that outdated ships (yes that includes the Excelsior and Ambassador) should never have been T5 options.
I'm sorry, who ended up blown to pieces and who sailed off into the sunset?
Technology advanced, get over it.
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How much older is the B'Rel or the D'Kyr?
Oh snaaaaaap, Dominion Online... that's very lulzy....
The space frame for the T1 Miranda you fly was built in the 25th century. And they already fixed any flaws you think are there. Why? SPACE MAGIC! That's how Cryptic explained it.
KDF seems to be almost all VQ's anymore... not that I can blame them...
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
If they add a Tier-5 Miranda they would make a slim minority of players happy for a small effort and those in the first camp would be angry. If they failed to add a Tier-5 Miranda then they'd disappoint that slim minority of players, but would they atleast make the first camp happy? Nope, that first camp is going to be TRIBBLE butt hurt over Tier-5 Sabres, Tier-5 Olympics and all sorts of other things that have happened since this whole situation started.
So, developers, make the Fleet Miranda a science vessel, sure you'll TRIBBLE of some people, but they're already pretty angry. And you just might make the OP's day.
1- This game isn't Canon.
2- That novel is STO CANON. Because it's called the official novel of Star Trek Online and because the timenline and content were approved by both CBS and Cryptic.
See the difference? The novel is canon for this game. Not canon for Star Trek. Canon for Star Trek Online.
It does reference functionality. Both in the timeline and in the Geordi chapter. They establish that captains in 2409 can alter their ships, using the modular "ex machina" that O'Brien and Starfleet Corps of Engineers whipped up, to suit the captains' individual tastes. This includes the visual appearance. Which is all this annoying debate is ever about.
These AREN'T outdated vessels. That's what the Path establishes. They are modern vessels.
They are. They are T5. That ship has sailed. At this point, as I stated, you're clinging to some sort of hierarchy that does not exist in this game. So it can't be applied to this game.
Honestly, all I have to add to this rather heated discussion is...
Can we take a break from new ships for awhile?
I mean, there's been a LOT of new ships put in the game the past months during season 7. Maybe it's time for a break?
(I will say I'd rather see the Merion and/or Planck class over the Miranda. I never really liked the Miranda's look. Though we do have a '25th century' looking version of the Miranda in the umm...'Vulcan name'-class variant)
Translation: only what I want to use to support my argument is canon.
I've quoted the timeline entry for a second time. Please highlight for me anything that relates to functionality and giant leaps in ship performance.
Bull****. A ship built from an obsolete design is just as outdated if built today than one build two hundred years ago.
And we're back to "i'm already wrong, let's go for more wrongness".
Somebody's still pissy about their lack of a T5 connie. Get over the fact that that ship is just as obsolete as the Miranda.
Also, hows your project of stuffing F-22 parts into Old Ironsides and making her fly working out?
The Nova is used as an example because it's a T2 ship that they made into a T5 ship with the fleet variant.
Which means the "tier" the ship is at when you first encounter it doesn't prohibit the ship from having a T5 fleet variant.
The AGE debate is a different line of debate. But things like the D'Kyr are stellar examples of how the age debate falls flat.
There is no restriction that can't be overcome. Cryptic's already proven that. The next ship I believe Geko mentioned might be coming down the line for the Federation is the New Orleans class. The New Orleans class. That's not exactly 25th Century PWNage in action.
Translation: Stirling doesn't understand canon at all.
The Vulcan D'Kyr?