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Systems: defensive power creep has killed all but DHC enery weapons. rebalance needed
dontdrunkimshoot
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Al, Borticus, any system team lurkers, you would be right about beams beeing fine if this was pre F2P. but since then the power creep from duty officer system with its various defensive buffs like the shield distribution officer, the borg set, the stf sets, especially the maco shield, but they are all vastly better then normal shields, the rep system defensive bonuses to regeneration and proc healing, the elite fleet shields that people can effortlessly cap resistence with, and the embasy consoles that proc heals too, and fleet ships being the new baseline, all these things are a direct nerf to the effect of pressure damage, and everyone has at least some of these things.
this inclusion of passive and active healing has made escorts, as long as they can move quickly and concentrate on staying out of narrow fireing arcs, tank much more effectively then cruisers that tank only be out healing damage and cant out maneuver damage at all. at the same time those escorts are using the only weapons that can damage. not the most powerful weapons, like they should have, literally the only weapons that can damage.
because of the shield resistance level the average pvper has now, pressure damage from all energy weapons, save spiky DHCs, is literally worthless. basic EPtS cycling and shield distribution with all the passives out paces pressure damage from these weapons, no mater how strong that pressure is.
heres why:
DHC spike can remove a single shield faceing and start dealing hull damage in a single CRF fireing cycle. each fireing cycle, it can completely remove the shield strength that gets refilled, and deal more hull damage. this is also the only opportunity there is to use torpedoes effectively. torpedoes are worthless unless pared with DHCs. most DHC user kills are to ships with more then 50% of their total shields left.
non DHCs deal their dps gradually, at a rate that will not breach the shield facing your shooting at, as long as your opponent is cycleing the most basic of heals and distributing his shields. for a non DHC user to get to the hull, he would have to shoot through 4 shield facings worth of shields before he ever can touch the hull. any cross healing will completely undo minutes of pressure damage, used to beat all those shields down.
thats why all non spike damage, that cant surgically remove 1 shield facing at a time, is worthless. you could buff beam arrays to have higher DPS then DHCs, and it wouldn't mater, they arent dealing spike damage, they would still have less effect then DHCs. its THAT bad. you could only know this though if you have seen it first hand in pvp, NPCs dont have all these passives that have been added, but they should. then everyone would know just how bad it is now.
solution:
change the fireing cycle of beam arrays, dual beam banks, and single cannons to have a similar 2 shots per cycle fireing cycle like DHCs have. dual cannons, maybe increase their DPS by 25%, they might be sorta ok then. the weapons would be on an even footing with DHCs in effect then, only the damage magnitude would be different. pressure no longer works in game, thanks to the power creep, so everything needs to have an element of spike. just buffing the DPS of non DHC weapons would be pointless, it wont change anything, its all about how they deal damage per cycle that has an actual effect.
this change to beam arrays and the other weapons has to happen, before the power creeps even more, and pressure damage is again directly nerfed as a result.
this inclusion of passive and active healing has made escorts, as long as they can move quickly and concentrate on staying out of narrow fireing arcs, tank much more effectively then cruisers that tank only be out healing damage and cant out maneuver damage at all. at the same time those escorts are using the only weapons that can damage. not the most powerful weapons, like they should have, literally the only weapons that can damage.
because of the shield resistance level the average pvper has now, pressure damage from all energy weapons, save spiky DHCs, is literally worthless. basic EPtS cycling and shield distribution with all the passives out paces pressure damage from these weapons, no mater how strong that pressure is.
heres why:
DHC spike can remove a single shield faceing and start dealing hull damage in a single CRF fireing cycle. each fireing cycle, it can completely remove the shield strength that gets refilled, and deal more hull damage. this is also the only opportunity there is to use torpedoes effectively. torpedoes are worthless unless pared with DHCs. most DHC user kills are to ships with more then 50% of their total shields left.
non DHCs deal their dps gradually, at a rate that will not breach the shield facing your shooting at, as long as your opponent is cycleing the most basic of heals and distributing his shields. for a non DHC user to get to the hull, he would have to shoot through 4 shield facings worth of shields before he ever can touch the hull. any cross healing will completely undo minutes of pressure damage, used to beat all those shields down.
thats why all non spike damage, that cant surgically remove 1 shield facing at a time, is worthless. you could buff beam arrays to have higher DPS then DHCs, and it wouldn't mater, they arent dealing spike damage, they would still have less effect then DHCs. its THAT bad. you could only know this though if you have seen it first hand in pvp, NPCs dont have all these passives that have been added, but they should. then everyone would know just how bad it is now.
solution:
change the fireing cycle of beam arrays, dual beam banks, and single cannons to have a similar 2 shots per cycle fireing cycle like DHCs have. dual cannons, maybe increase their DPS by 25%, they might be sorta ok then. the weapons would be on an even footing with DHCs in effect then, only the damage magnitude would be different. pressure no longer works in game, thanks to the power creep, so everything needs to have an element of spike. just buffing the DPS of non DHC weapons would be pointless, it wont change anything, its all about how they deal damage per cycle that has an actual effect.
this change to beam arrays and the other weapons has to happen, before the power creeps even more, and pressure damage is again directly nerfed as a result.
Post edited by dontdrunkimshoot on
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a nice part is that it should basically have no effect pve that i can see, it would just look a bit different. ships fireing less beams would certainly look a bit more canons accurate too
Perhaps it is where it should be, DDIS?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
ive said this in that thread a dozen times. wall of text thread with almost 20 pages i don't think is very useful at this point. threads about basically this are popping up all over the forum, though most are made by people with a limited understanding of the scope of the problem, a new thread that once again for like the 6th time is complaining about this exact thing in the pvp section hopefully will get more dev attention then an older threadnaught.
the ocation for this new thread is that gecko isn't aware of the power creep's effect on pressure. further dev informing is clearly needed.
True fact happened yesterday in a C&H :
3 kdf ships were trying to conquer a point ,actually the most close point to kdf respawn
There come a federation wells and attacks all of us.Ok I say a fed suicidal no problem.
But it seemed there is a problem .We hit all three kdf ships that wells and could not lower its shields.More fed tractored a bop and killed it while we were all fire ing with everything we had .
Before such things happened only with federation cruisers who were running the above combo and EPTS3 or extend shield but it is the first time a wells is almost impossible to kill.
In the end we managed to kill that wells just once in the whole match and then only if we were 4 kdf ships tractoring him .
My Conclusion :FvK P.V.P is going down slowly due to one side bias .Federation ships are more and more tougher to kill with all the healing enhancements that are only for federation (leadership=aka borg permanent regen without any cd ,autohealing proc. elite weapons, escorts capable to hit 95k ->kumari available only to federation)
The fleet wrapper did something by luring more players into PVP but in long run I think FvK PVP is going slowly down.Maybe it is only my opinion but time will say it if it true or not.I think that if and when all kdf consoles will be available to federation then FvK will be dead unless something is done and kdf gets better ships and weapons
(before anybody reminds about elite kdf shield proc weapons there is the fact that kdf bases are now closing to T4 except the orions who reached T5.If my fleet didnt reached T4 yet then I guess it will reach T5 in a year from now so in short time I will not be able to PVP if things are going like now.)
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
I could post some numbers from my log archive showing the increase in average resists in PVP matches. But then again, if Cryptic were interested in that kind of datamining, they never would have released all these balance-breaking things to holodeck.
How did this Carthago line go again? Maybe Hilbert the Elder should do that with Geko?
You do know that kdf can get leadership too right? The tier 4 Marauding rewards a boff of any type and some races to the kdf. I got 4 human boffs with leadership from it. Purchased the boffs by direct trade from people who reached tier 4 Marauding but didn't want the boffs. So go get you some
My KDF character now tanks as much as my fed character. Also every once in a great while an kdf alien boff will randomly have leadership. This is very rare though. I got my boffs for 14-18 million each.
Pretty sure those BOFFs are bound on pickup now..
You were lucky having them at that price.
I have a single human boff from marauding and yes somebody offered 18 mil EC for it.I didn't sell it.I would sell it only in exchange for an unboxed jhas.That is the value of a human leadership boff for me on my kdf char.
My federation char discharge on regular base blue human boff's with leadership because I have more than I need.Price on exchange for an federation very rare boff it is what 100 k EC ?
When leadership was fixed I started a thread in which I asked that this trait should be equally available to kdf as it is to fed now.
Do you think the current situation is fair toward kdf ?
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Cheapest Human Tac is 340k.
Cheapest Human Eng is 100k.
Cheapest Human Sci is 120k.
I find that to be kind of funny considering the Rom Tac BOFFs...but oh well.
Just adjusted DDIS so that 14 year olds with limited math and reading skills can understand it more easily.
So in best PISA fashion: please answer the multiple choice questions below
1) PvP is "too bursty" because....
a) ....healing and resists are to strong, leading to the loss of pressure damage.
b) ....the energy drain of DHC, especially when used with power insulators, is too weak compared to beams.
c) none of the above
2) "not enough glass, too much cannon" refers to
a) a meta game in which the healer class has been made superfluous by passive procs and resists.
b) escorts that combine superior tanking and superior fire power
c) the secret hax of some teenagers with too much time on their hand
3) Please answer the following question in your own words:
Why do you think that escorts sell better then the other ship types:
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Tip: DHC have a narrow firing arc, but the ships that can mount them have the highest turn in game.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I get the frustration, I really do. With some of the things said, I often wonder if he's doing interviews for STOned or the like...and yeah, I get that what Drunk's saying is going to be ignored along with any offer feedback that doesn't involve giggles and saying STO's perfect...
...but rather than having some wandering mod kill these threads, wouldn't it be nifty if one of the other devs saw it - saw the light of it - and possibly mentioned it to somebody else, that word got around, and somebody pre...bah, who am I kidding? It will never be seen, never be heard...
...everything's WAD.
Well, maybe not WAD - but it's definitely a wad.
I think the irony is, that when some dev sees the light, he usually quits his work at Cryptic. Few names come to my mind.
I approve of your historical awareness.
Ceteris censeo refragatio delendam esse?
Totally see the issue at hand though: the only way I seem to be able to damage hull with beams in pvp is by preloading BO3 and BO2, and then firing both of them on the same DBB in one fell swoop, and even then I only have a 1-second window to do some hull damage before distribution and heals catch up.
c) none of the above: PvP is not bursty enough, escorts should come standard with subnucleonic beam on a 15 second cooldown so that we can time them with our rapid fires, and fomm 3 should be cleared only by tactical team 3 because 3 = 3 is balance!!! <- 3 exclamation points for balance
2) "not enough glass, too much cannon" refers to
c) the secret hax of some teenagers with too much time on their hand
3) Please answer the following question in your own words:
Why do you think that escorts sell better then the other ship types:
because us 14 year olds need them for our secret hax
---
Honestly, I kind of like the bursty feel of STO's current space meta. But I agree that there should be more to pressure than "burst multiple targets to draw heals and set up for a burst on another target." Also, while the STO space meta still makes for some fun space pvp, it makes for really horrible space PvE - there is virtually no point in a healer for space STFs, and almost no point in a shutdown sci, either. DPS is king when the DPS sources can solo tank the hardest minibosses in the game and even the big PVE bosses rely on overwhelming burst damage that no tank can sustain, rather than steady pressure, for their kills.
id like 1 shot per cycle, on forward arc only on fed cruisers and sci ships. but i also want good single cannons, and good DBB. adjusting BO magnitude would be needed too of course
i thought it was drive coil? darn it!
actual numbers might be irreverent at this point, they know what they added. they just have to think critically for a moment, and realize what all that stuff has done to balance cumulatively.
... which makes their narrow firing arc practically a none issue, and most often not an actual draw back, especially for the bug.
If Geko sees beams as being ok (I already put my opinion on what he said in the discussion thread), and nobody who can actually do anything about it disagrees, then pressure damage is now nothing more than an amusing foot-note in Escorts Online. What a sad day indeed.
That aside, I approve of this idea, albeit I am not holding my breath.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Escort Online! Working as intended! :P
However i see a need to cut all healing by a large amount as well across the board
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
If setup right the wells is a tanking beast,,,as well as faster and turns better than the large beam boats.
Someone with a wells challenged my friend in zone yesterday, they let me in to watch,,,it was a stalemate, my friend has the fleet MV, his DPS and flying are top notch, i have a bug,,,the guy in the wells told me to join in,,,both of us hammered on that ship with 2 escorts that have 5 tac slots running 4 DHCs and we could not get that ship any lower than 80% hull and his shields were constantly healed, granted he had noobish lvl DPS and wasnt scratching us either but damn man, those 2 high powered ships blasting a wells should have killed it,,,or as you said 3 KDF ships should have killed it but didnt.
Power Insulators has rendered all but a hyper-specialized Vesta w/ Delta Flyers very nearly worthless at shield stripping. Between the skill giving 50% drain reduction when spec'd, and several popular deflectors (Borg, Omega) and items (chiefly, Zero-Point Console) giving bonus Power Insulators, it's very easy reduce shield (and energy) drains to a virtually footnote state.
[EDIT]
Unless you load up on Concentrated Tachyon Mines, those things murder shields, PI or not with a Flow Capacitor or five behind 'em.
I dont disaggree about the current state of things at all i just think the solution at this point should be to buff the debuff abilities. Or more realistically, sell some new debuff consoles. Remember, its f2p, therefor it has to be profittable or they arent even gonna look at it.
A carefully thought out and thoroughly meticulous bump to a few sci powers, yes. Tweaking PI's effect on drains, yes. Turning Sci ships into one-man-shield-wiping death chariots? Not so much.
Their best bet would be to lose passive sci power resistances and then balance the powers from there while putting in place a diminishing returns system for stacking multiples of the same debuff on a single target. We *do* want to avoid the situation of having 4 ships light off their CPB's and make all shields go bye-bye, or having them all stack drains on a single target until all of its subsystems are completely offline. The thing is, with PI in the game, they've got a moving bullseye for balancing drains that, frankly, they'll never hit. Take a fairly generic shield peeler, find some guy without PI and you'll flat murder him. Find someone with 9 in PI and maybe the Borg Deflector and he'll probably laugh at your visual effects and ignore you.
-[Generic Shield Peeler]-
Sci Ship (not Vesta)
4 Flow Capacitors
Charged Particle Burst 3
Tachyon Beam 3
Tractor Beam w/ Shield Drain DOff
That vesta sounds awfully familiar :P
I think all are pvp problems come from us being 14 year olds and not know what "working as intended" means.
Maybe we should have the devs come play with us more so we know how to spec right?
Do you even Science Bro?
Props where props are due, after all, your Vesta is beastly.