I loathe most MMORPGs because of the attitude they've taken toward "PvE" - in the beginning, it was somewhat understandable because of technology. Coming from a PnP RPG background, I was used to the PvP aspect of "PvE"...the players vs. the DM/GM. The DM/GM would challenge the players - the DM/GM would play mobs to their capacity. You could run the same adventure over and over again and it never be the same. When you went into some dungeon or castle - you didn't storm it...that would be suicide...
I find it interesting that you and typically have similar concepts on how we wish the design should be and now I know why.
PnP background.
If I told the fighting man of the party he isn't allowed to deal damage pretty sure he wouldn't bother showing up for long. And if I told him he had a taunt ability he would have no clue what I was talking about.
See in PnP the fighting man has a very simple taunt ability. He hits the enemy in the face hard enough to be a legitimate threat. And the guy in the robe, he tries to avoid drawing attention to himself or uses tricks to avoid being eaten when noticed.
As a Tatical Officer, I report there are NO problems with DHC onboard the U.S.S. Richard NCC 965804 All systems have been tested and are working as to Starfleet designs. Tacticals ships have very lil hull and are very weak in that case. You actions are VOID and NULL. I hear by rest my case.
As a Tatical Officer, I report there are NO problems with DHC
^Is the exact point of this thread, there are no drawbacks to DHCs and narrow arc doesn't count, have you seen the turn rates of the only ships that can mount them?
Beams went the way of the dodo once F2P, and all the stupid TRIBBLE new bonuses like the Maco hit.
Outside of an Excelsior with warp plasma, cranking Bo3 and 2 it really sucks to run beams now.
On the premade stage, other than for spam clearing, that build becomes very situational.
They added too much healing... and here they are going to add even more.
Ontop of this DHCs started getting better and better, with the addition to A ships with far too high of a turn rate (55+ is insane) to completely mitigate their arc outside of the Z axis.
and B, with the newest addition... Wing Cannons, and 5 DHCs.
Whoever decided any of the above were good ideas should be fired, no questions asked.
We tried to warn them this was coming... and they kept right on anyway. And now they made it even worse.
Cryptic even knows how badly OP healing is now, because every ship that comes out now can mount DHCs. We have a Vesta with Aux Powered DHCs for cripe sake now.
At what point did they decide ''eff it no one cares and they'll just buy buy buy anyway''?
Beams went the way of the dodo once F2P, and all the stupid TRIBBLE new bonuses like the Maco hit.
Outside of an Excelsior with warp plasma, cranking Bo3 and 2 it really sucks to run beams now.
On the premade stage, other than for spam clearing, that build becomes very situational.
They added too much healing... and here they are going to add even more.
Ontop of this DHCs started getting better and better, with the addition to A ships with far too high of a turn rate (55+ is insane) to completely mitigate their arc outside of the Z axis.
and B, with the newest addition... Wing Cannons, and 5 DHCs.
Whoever decided any of the above were good ideas should be fired, no questions asked.
We tried to warn them this was coming... and they kept right on anyway. And now they made it even worse.
Cryptic even knows how badly OP healing is now, because every ship that comes out now can mount DHCs. We have a Vesta with Aux Powered DHCs for cripe sake now.
At what point did they decide ''eff it no one cares and they'll just buy buy buy anyway''?
While PuGGing the other night I was Pugteamed w/a player 1st the player was using a KDF toon then Fed Escort. He couldn't understand why his Fed Escort was so easy to kill. I went over various ways to role different defensive boosts/resists etc. Finally, I got around to piloting suggestions like getting out of a forward arc, then only turning to fight when Buff were up.
Of all the suggestions, the one the stood out to that player was the act of piloting to avoid damage then apply damage.
All this passive TRIBBLE does is keep players from learning some very basic things early on like going to a high engine power preset and getting out of an enemies forward arc b/c they never need to.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
That may be what you think, or want it to be. But that is not what it is, was, or necessarily should be
Well, I'm just going to underline the point I've made before but is probably the most important point:
Highly idiosyncratic game design can make for novel games or games of high quality... But it works counter to how MMOs work because MMOs are ongoing projects with high employee turnover.
A good system is one you can train a new developer to run. Idiosyncratic systems are harder to train new developers to run and result in features going unsupported when turnover happens. (See: The DOff system for an example of this. Great system. Theoretically great at mass producing a form of content. But that doesn't happen. Why? Because Heretic left and it's proven a hard system to train anyone new on, particularly without the original designer on hand to train new people, because he's been gone for a year.)
The more standard a system is between games, the more you can support it when turnover happens.
Highly idiosyncratic PvP (ie. too much unlike other MMOs) will fall apart when you need to pass balance and overall design management off to a new developer every 4-8 months. Either it becomes more like other MMOs or it remains largely unsupported as a feature set.
Additionally, I wasn't saying Sustained, Burst, and Spike DPS are unique to STO. They're not although there might be question of whether "Spike DPS" ought to be called "Spike Damage" because it doesn't necessarily improve overall "per second" tabulations over time significantly. But Pressure DPS is a fairly arcane term that I don't think anyone uses aside from STO players. Sustained DPS is a thing. Pressure DPS is not and the term would make no sense outside of STO.
And Sustained DPS generally belongs to your DPS classes, not your tanking or support classes. Heavily armored classes are not usually allowed to get too competitive at Sustained DPS and are generally given SPIKE or BURST DPS for PvP (and sometimes for tanking, if your aggro/threat system is designed to lead enemies to ignore sustained DPS and pay attention to sources of spikes, even if overall damage is lower).
Pressure DPS is a neologism though. To the extent STO's systems were counterintuitive enough to create a new category of DPS, it can't be part of the design goal and it's doubtful that it's productive to maintain an enigmatic new DPS category that nobody else uses.
Additionally, I wasn't saying Sustained, Burst, and Spike DPS are unique to STO. They're not although there might be question of whether "Spike DPS" ought to be called "Spike Damage" because it doesn't necessarily improve overall "per second" tabulations over time significantly. But Pressure DPS is a fairly arcane term that I don't think anyone uses aside from STO players. Sustained DPS is a thing. Pressure DPS is not and the term would make no sense outside of STO.
And Sustained DPS generally belongs to your DPS classes, not your tanking or support classes. Heavily armored classes are not usually allowed to get too competitive at Sustained DPS and are generally given SPIKE or BURST DPS for PvP (and sometimes for tanking, if your aggro/threat system is designed to lead enemies to ignore sustained DPS and pay attention to sources of spikes, even if overall damage is lower).
Pressure DPS is a neologism though. To the extent STO's systems were counterintuitive enough to create a new category of DPS, it can't be part of the design goal and it's doubtful that it's productive to maintain an enigmatic new DPS category that nobody else uses.
In standard design you have two types of damage and tanking. This applies to PvE and PvP by the way.
Burst Damage vs Buffer Tank
Meaning lots of damage over short period of time against a targets raw health. Typically the domain of casters and works well against low health targets. AKA Spike damage in STO.
Sustained Damage vs Sustain Tank
Highest damage over a long period of time working against a targets ability to regenerate/heal/restore health. In STO this would be labeled as 'pressure damage' as it forces the player to react in some way with the hopes of exposing them.
Alterations
Obviously you also have to throw in things like area of effect damage which can go either way along with exotic damage designed to bypass a targets methods of defense. In addition their are other modifications that are at times done such as a 'build up' being required for a character to reach optimum damage or a limit on how often one can activate their burst damage potential. For defense you have several variations including avoiding damage, reducing or mitigating damage, then active or passive, along with healing and resisting effects.
Original Trinity Fighter: The tank typically has a high sustained damage output which allows him to build up and maintain agro. They also come standard with a high amount of health (buffer) to allow them to survive against burst damage combined with high amounts of damage mitigation or avoidance making them an efficient target of the heal resource available.
Mage: The mage usually lacks the ability to survive against burst damage and also tends to have a low amount of mitigation or avoidance making them a waste of a heal. They are the kings of burst damage though which makes them valuable for burning down high priority targets quickly.
Healer: Heals people, pretty basic. Also tends to buff people making them more effective.
This is the original trinity. You will notice the lack of a 'thief' or melee DPS character because it originally shined outside of combat not within it. You will also notice it bears absolutely no similarity to what most people are referring to with the trinity. It has since been bastardized by many games creating what people are more familiar with being
Meat Shield: Taunts and takes hits DPS: Puts out high sustained DPS Healer: Heals people
This also bears little resemblance to the STO ship setup either. The amount of redesign that would be required to shove the square STO ship peg into the round Trinity design is unbelievable. Think about the following things for a second.
1) Escorts are designed to have short time on target with high amounts of Burst damage delivered over a short period of time. A reliance on keeping a high speed for damage avoidance combined with limited ability to heal damage should prevent them from being on target for too long.
2) Cruisers pack the highest quantity of weapon slots and have both the best self tank buff emergency power to shields and ally tank buff with extend.
3) Science Vessels gain a huge bonus to damage output against a target after a time and have the highest passive health regeneration amount. In addition they pack the best heals with transfer shield strength and hazard emitters along with powerful AoE debuffs and CC.
4) ALL boff types pack some combination of the following: Buffs for self and others, A form of hard CC, cleanses or ability to remove debuffs, offensive abilities.
This game fails so hard at trinity it is not even funny. In addition trinity is absolute garbage when the game is played by a casual audience that solos to any large amount. This is why even in WoW or Rift you can make your Tank into a DPS with talent choices. Even the healers can do this. EQ was the last game I know of that was a successful hard trinity setup for the solo game and it never grew like WoW did and one of the reasons for that was the ability for every class to be at least competitive solo.
This entire Trinity/role/etc argument though fails to identify the true problem. The game mechanics and systems, the math and formulas everything is built around, do not scale very well. So when you create power creep the small errors get worse and worse until they break and require a fix. I firmly believe this game was originally designed to end at 40 as after that is when the cracks begin to show. Now you are seeing them break and the former patches applied, like Field Generators and ACC to weapons, are no longer holding up.
Final Thought
Here's the thing. The trinity is popular and effective in group design for a simple reason. Via specialization you achieve higher efficiency. Their is another way to go about it though.
Force Multipliers. And STO has these and when they work they are amazing.
Attack Pattern Beta - This is a huge multiplier for the entire team.
Power Drains - Remember when you actually wanted a Sci in your STF run to shutdown Donotra and Tac Cubes?
Gravity Well / Warp Plasma - Ah accuracy overflow how I love thee
Those are the things that should be focused upon, and improved upon. That is what STO is designed to do well and it does work. The details just need ironed out a bit as now the primary weapon for 2/3rds of the ships in the game is under performing!
It even applied in PvP. You had your Sci who exposed a target to be killed, the escort who did the killing, and the cruiser who tried to stop the killing to put it simply. But now you can't really lock down a target, you don't have the time to stop the killing when it happens, and you can't kill a properly prepared target leading to the current cluster bleep that players are complaining about. The tempo is gone, the pacing has been destroyed, and with it everything else.
Highly idiosyncratic game design can make for novel games or games of high quality... But it works counter to how MMOs work because MMOs are ongoing projects with high employee turnover.
The new standard of MMO design does not vary from what people are asking for mate. WoW, Rift, Secret World, GW2, and many others allow a player to perform effectively in a solo situation or choose a role in a group situation via talents or some other form of specialization inherent to the characters. Same with PvE and PvP.
STO has BOFFs that can be changed at will outside of combat and you mean to tell me they cannot figure out a way to mirror that? And that it would be an oddity in the industry for doing so?
The new standard of MMO design does not vary from what people are asking for mate. WoW, Rift, Secret World, GW2, and many others allow a player to perform effectively in a solo situation or choose a role in a group situation via talents or some other form of specialization inherent to the characters. Same with PvE and PvP.
STO has BOFFs that can be changed at will outside of combat and you mean to tell me they cannot figure out a way to mirror that? And that it would be an oddity in the industry for doing so?
In WoW you can easily switch to a secondary spec for levelling or group/solo play. But you can already do this in STO, its not as easy but all you need to do is go to a mayor base and switch ships if you truly feel your cruiser is not up to solo play.
Besides, I don't think STOLev was talking about that, he was referring to unique systems like the Doff system becoming orphanaged once the one guy that knows how to work it leaves (or the one guy that seemed to care about it). The proof of his being correct is that we haven't gotten any new Doff assignments or chains in forever. It should be incredibly easy and quick to whip some new ones every so often but since Heretic left and their feeble attempt at monetizing it via the temporal beacon doff assignments we haven't seen anything new Doffwise have we? Besides potentially unbalancing Doffs....isn't it funny? They can release more Doffs just like they can release more ships, but seem to be allergic to releasing content for them o be used in! Also isn't it soooo coincidental how all their new grinds seem to be based around a modded Doff system?
To think that for a while I actually believed something good was going to be continually supported! Lol!! I should know better, after their terrible monetization attempt of it I should've expected it would be abandoned in its current form, left to stagnate while an altered and changed version would be made to serve some form of monetization.
Trinity games are always going to struggle with the PvP component because there's no real place for the aggro tank (this is particularly troublesome/lulzy to envision in STO's space combat). How do you effectively translate taunts to PvP? Solutions mostly tend to be about reworking the class into a "debuffer" or a CC role. Then further problems come because CC tends to be very powerful at all levels of play.
I would agree that part of the issue does indeed stem from developers wanting to give everyone the ability to roll solo. In essence, you can't have a role-based PvP game where those players can then saunter off to do things equally effectively alone, because some roles (namely CC) are much stronger than others.
I couldn't really tell you what the solution is, but I'll go on the record as saying that no game based on the trinity will have a stable, competitive PvP scene.
Trinity games are always going to struggle with the PvP component because there's no real place for the aggro tank (this is particularly troublesome/lulzy to envision in STO's space combat). How do you effectively translate taunts to PvP? Solutions mostly tend to be about reworking the class into a "debuffer" or a CC role. Then further problems come because CC tends to be very powerful at all levels of play.
I would agree that part of the issue does indeed stem from developers wanting to give everyone the ability to roll solo. In essence, you can't have a role-based PvP game where those players can then saunter off to do things equally effectively alone, because some roles (namely CC) are much stronger than others.
I couldn't really tell you what the solution is, but I'll go on the record as saying that no game based on the trinity will have a stable, competitive PvP scene.
Well said Shimmerless.
I'll also go on record that while I thought the premise of this thread was accurate originally, I've seen a few different builds and tactics as of late that have changed my mind.
It might not be something typical PUG teams can pull off though.
I never understood why they can't make taunt work in pvp....how hard is it to force the player/players being taunted to target the player for x amount of seconds before they can freely target someone else?
I never understood why they can't make taunt work in pvp....how hard is it to force the player/players being taunted to target the player for x amount of seconds before they can freely target someone else?
1. it doesn't make much sense, Star Trek-wise
2. Everyone hates forced targetting
3. see point 1
However, if you want PvP Taunt ability. Galaxy-R and Galaxy-X both have passive taunt. Everyone will attack you first. It is a hidden perk of the ship and well-guarded secret. Try it yourself!
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I'll also go on record that while I thought the premise of this thread was accurate originally, I've seen a few different builds and tactics as of late that have changed my mind.
It might not be something typical PUG teams can pull off though.
However, if you want PvP Taunt ability. Galaxy-R and Galaxy-X both have passive taunt. Everyone will attack you first. It is a hidden perk of the ship and well-guarded secret. Try it yourself!
No thanks, I'll stick to my science oddy... people try to kill me anyway once they realize I'm the healer.
I'll not argue the point it makes no sense in a star trek universe, and yes people hate forced targeting, but forced targeting does exist as well as placate abilities....it could have been an interesting option in pvp when an alpha strike goes out and an engi taunts everyone has to burn their alphas on the tank ...and it could be sub-nuked so there might be an element of when to use SNB in that situation, on the tank or on the alpha target to debuff. Anyway it's just a thought...
The better solution is to tweak Eng to be better at healing others.
I'm fairly new but I figured engineer was the way to go for a healer because of the increased survivability, and cruiser bridge layouts are more suited for hull healing. I realize shield healing is very powerful at the moment but I've run into a few teams that are built to completely bypass shields.
I'll also go on record that while I thought the premise of this thread was accurate originally, I've seen a few different builds and tactics as of late that have changed my mind.
It might not be something typical PUG teams can pull off though.
i don't know of anyone who can make more dangerous lol tac fed cruisers then my self, and im the op. it doesn't mater how potent i make them, or how much DPS i can generate with them, the problem still stands, they deal pressure damage, and with the defensive power creep, pressure doesn't do any thing anymore. shield resistance cutting damage more then in half, with hyper regeneration and proc heals with basic distribution, out paces the strongest possible pressure damage, even vs escorts.
only damage that is applied in its entirety before a single tic of regeneration, distribution or healing occurs has any effect, all other damage has 4 shield facings it has to shoot through, and it will never be able to with the most basic station power heals.
I'll not argue the point it makes no sense in a star trek universe, and yes people hate forced targeting, but forced targeting does exist as well as placate abilities....it could have been an interesting option in pvp when an alpha strike goes out and an engi taunts everyone has to burn their alphas on the tank ...and it could be sub-nuked so there might be an element of when to use SNB in that situation, on the tank or on the alpha target to debuff. Anyway it's just a thought...
The degree of hate for it will vary from player to player. Those that are fine with it in PvE might not be fine with themselves being subject to it in PvP. There are those that absolutely loathe it in PvE and for them - well, flames shoot out their ears and nostrils as their eyes spin round and round.
There is the "don't know who to target" ability, there is the "might be targeting somebody else" ability, and there is the "don't target me" ability as well. From here, there's three routes (imho) toward what you're suggesting.
Forced targeting of the person using the ability.
Only target available being the person using the ability.
Only unfriendly target available being the person using the ability.
The difference for some with the first two would be the difference between a loss of control and a loss of options. For some folks, that's a big difference. The second would work more along the lines of how other abilities work now...so that might be be easier to sell.
But there's a big problem with either of the first two, and thus - that's why there's that third. What's that big problem? Spam the taunt on the healer and you've neutralized the healer. If the healer is unable to target friendlies, the healer can't heal them.
So say you go with that third route then...there are still a few things to work out here. First is whether it's single target or an AoE, eh? Okay, it's not really first - but it's easier, imho, than the next one.
It's mess with sensors, so it's a Science thing. A pretty powerful science thing, no? So if we've got Jam at Ensign and Scramble at Lieutenant, then we're likely looking at <insert name> at Lieutenant Commander. One of those LCdr 1, Cmdr 2&3 things...
...which brings us to the issue of the Science Vessel probably not wanting to be the primary target...lol.
So does that add a misdirect component? Does it become a case of setting a Focus Target for one of our allies (if we don't, it applies to us)...and then triggering the ability to "misdirect" "aggro" to that ally?
Think of the griefing that could ensue, eh? Does it pop up with a confirmation for the person that is the Focus Target? Major distraction in the midst of battle,, eh?
Just so many, so many, oh man so many issues with it...
...and that's before getting into one of my personal dislikes about how Science abilities work in the first place. There's no to-hit rolls nor any pseudo to-hit rolls. I've discussed this ad nauseum in threads outside the PvP forums recently.
Consider the following:
Tom has 9 in Sensors, the Astrophysicist trait, 125 Aux, and all the Sensors gear he could cram on to his ship.
Rick has 0 in Sensors, doesn't have the Astro trait, managed to get 25 Aux, and doesn't have a single piece of Sensors gear on his boat.
Harry has 0 in CMS, managed to get 25 Aux as well, doesn't have any CMS gear on his rig, and is using Jam1.
Harry has the same chance to jam Tom as he does Rick. To me, that is complete BS.
I mean, c'mon - that's like saying somebody could be running +170% or higher Bonus Defense where a person without the Accurate trait, without any points or gear providing Targeting, and without Acc mods on their weapons would have around a 37% chance to-hit with any weapon...somehow manages to have a 100% chance to hit with SNB, Tractor Beam, Tachyon Beam, and various other physical attacks.
Oh wait, that happens too...
...but er, anyway, yeah - adding another ability where Harry could make 0 investment in the ability other than taking the ability and it having the same initial effect on both Rick and Tom - yeah, that just bugs the Hell out of me.
I would have went with "Only unfriendly target available being the person using the ability." The idea (in my mind) is it only affects unfriendly targets, so a healer would continue to be able to heal his teammates, but no one could target anyone on the opposing team but the ability user. I guess that sort of makes the SNB option moot, you would have no choice but to subnuke it off the tank, though maybe science team yourself and then subnuke the intended target, but then you'd have to wait x seconds for your tacs to clear the taunt or science team themselves as well in order to apply the dps...assuming this ability would play by the same rules other buff and debuffs do.
I also thought about making it a limited range AOE deal, 5-7k so the tank would have to either be in the midst of the tacs ...or maybe it works the other way, he has to be in range of the intended target. That might not be such a hot ides considering the low mobility of cruisers. A single target ability might work too if the guy can figure out who is the biggest damage dealer.
As for the way science abilities work, I figured this could be an engi specific skill tied directly to threat control and how many points you have in it directly correlates to how long you can keep your enemies pinned on you.
___
Just so I'm not completely off-topic here, dontdrunkimshoot, how much have you tested with DEM? From what I understand it's very easy to stack 75% resist on shields but it's very hard to stack high resistance on hull without everyone dumping everything they got onto a target (and not having anything left for the next guys should a switch target be called), do you think cruisers would be more effective in dealing pressure damage with some sort of hybrid DEM/transphasic torpedo build?
Just so I'm not completely off-topic here, dontdrunkimshoot, how much have you tested with DEM? From what I understand it's very easy to stack 75% resist on shields but it's very hard to stack high resistance on hull without everyone dumping everything they got onto a target (and not having anything left for the next guys should a switch target be called), do you think cruisers would be more effective in dealing pressure damage with some sort of hybrid DEM/transphasic torpedo build?
almost all my non escort builds have DEM, i use it contently. its a poor match with beams, they have too low a fire rate. its best parred with rapid fire single cannons, DCs and turrets. works great on CRF DHCs too even, at least still better then beam arrays.
DEM needs you fireing lots of energy weapons though, so it doesn't play well when you have non energy weapons. its the same as glider, as in it adds an effect per shot.
i use it with my DPS cruisers, it complements the basic damage my spiky kdf cruisers deal, and makes my fed cruisers with single cannons almost ok. but in their case my target is able to keep their shields healthy because im just dealing pressure but can have up to 25% of their hull melted by weapons bleed and DEM in a single alpha. but pretty basic heals can undo DEM's effect completely in that situation. not so much the case with the DHCs on my kdf cruisers, im hitting hull with my actual weapons too.
you would be crazy not to use DEM on a single cannon fed cruiser, or DHC kdf cruiser, that you want to deal damage with. don't use it on a healer though, and don't bother using it with beam arrays ether.
it adds a hundred to hundreds of damage directly to hull, and can crit for over 1000 if your tac buffed enough. regardless if its a turret of DHC that applys the DEM damage, the DEM damage is the same. like i had said before, it deals between 12% and 18% of my total damage. so if i was not using DEM, i would deal 12% to 18% less total damage then i would if i was useing DEM
almost all my non escort builds have DEM, i use it contently. its a poor match with beams, they have too low a fire rate. its best parred with rapid fire single cannons, DCs and turrets. works great on CRF DHCs too even, at least still better then beam arrays.
DEM needs you fireing lots of energy weapons though, so it doesn't play well when you have non energy weapons. its the same as glider, as in it adds an effect per shot.
i use it with my DPS cruisers, it complements the basic damage my spiky kdf cruisers deal, and makes my fed cruisers with single cannons almost ok. but in their case my target is able to keep their shields healthy because im just dealing pressure but can have up to 25% of their hull melted by weapons bleed and DEM in a single alpha. but pretty basic heals can undo DEM's effect completely in that situation. not so much the case with the DHCs on my kdf cruisers, im hitting hull with my actual weapons too.
you would be crazy not to use DEM on a single cannon fed cruiser, or DHC kdf cruiser, that you want to deal damage with. don't use it on a healer though, and don't bother using it with beam arrays ether.
it adds a hundred to hundreds of damage directly to hull, and can crit for over 1000 if your tac buffed enough. regardless if its a turret of DHC that applys the DEM damage, the DEM damage is the same. like i had said before, it deals between 12% and 18% of my total damage. so if i was not using DEM, i would deal 12% to 18% less total damage then i would if i was useing DEM
Drunk, tap me up in game for a demo for a non dual heavy cannon build that does more than suppress
Virus, I think you're being a little too limited in the ways that a "taunt" effect could be applied.
First off, there's no reason that it has to be a Science ability. There are already a lot of abilities in-game that don't seem to make much sense belonging to the profession they do (Boarding Party is engineering? what?). If you're really concerned about the treknobabble fluff behind the ability, then I propose these two variants that would make it Eng or Tac:
Eng - Amplify Energy Signature (MES in reverse?)
Your engineering crew works their magic on the warp core and dramatically amplifies the energy signature of your ship. Your amplified energy signature overwhelms enemy sensors; it's hard to pick out the signatures of your allies from the EM noise that you've created. Unfortunately, as expected, your ship becomes a far more prominent target. (Activating this power disables any cloak or stealth effects.)
Tac - Attack Pattern Suicide (appropriate, no?)
Your conn officer puts your ship through a time-honored manuever: run straight at the enemy, cannons blazing! Through a combination of aggressive posturing, making yourself as large a sensor target as possible, and physically maneuvering to block lines of fire, you've managed to prevent enemies from targeting your allies. Unfortunately, this protection does not extend to you. (Activating this power disables any cloak or stealth effects.)
Not only could such a taunt be done as Eng or Sci, but there are lots of other ways that it could be implemented. These different methods don't even have to directly touch the jam/scramble mechanic. Here're some examples I thought of:
1) PBAoE maintained effect, centered on you. Allies within range receive +Stealth bonus (perhaps increasing the closer they are to you); you receive a -Stealth malus. (This could be affected by Starship Stealth skill.)
2) Effect is applied to enemy target(s). Affected foes receive -Perception debuff. You receive a -Stealth debuff that ensures that you remain visible.
3) AoE cloud effect, similar to EWP. Allies within cloud receive +Stealth bonus. You receive a Stealth debuff that counters or exceeds the +Stealth bonus the cloud offers.
I think the Stealth mechanic, now that it's been explained (thanks Bort!), would offer a lot of ways to tinker with this -- plus, the stealth mechanic gives us more of a sliding scale compared to the "all or nothing" effect that Jam/Scramble currently have.
I'd personally like to see some sort of Taunt mechanic; I think it'd be an interesting addition that would play with the focus-fire strategy that teams currently rely on.
The two main abilities applicable to both cannons/beams that benefit cannons/turrets far more than beams are DEM and Tet Glider. (Am I missing something else?) It wouldn't come close to solving the beam/cannon disparity that currently exists, but moving DEM and Tet glider to a per-weapon-cycle mechanic would definitely help.
Virus, I think you're being a little too limited in the ways that a "taunt" effect could be applied.
First off, there's no reason that it has to be a Science ability. There are already a lot of abilities in-game that don't seem to make much sense belonging to the profession they do (Boarding Party is engineering? what?). If you're really concerned about the treknobabble fluff behind the ability, then I propose these two variants that would make it Eng or Tac:
Eng - Amplify Energy Signature (MES in reverse?)
Your engineering crew works their magic on the warp core and dramatically amplifies the energy signature of your ship. Your amplified energy signature overwhelms enemy sensors; it's hard to pick out the signatures of your allies from the EM noise that you've created. Unfortunately, as expected, your ship becomes a far more prominent target. (Activating this power disables any cloak or stealth effects.)
MES in reverse, eh? MES is a Science ability too.
Also, something like what you've described would tend to result in targeting being easier - you'd lose Bonus Defense - increase Accuracy Overflow - and go boom.
Tac - Attack Pattern Suicide (appropriate, no?)
Your conn officer puts your ship through a time-honored manuever: run straight at the enemy, cannons blazing! Through a combination of aggressive posturing, making yourself as large a sensor target as possible, and physically maneuvering to block lines of fire, you've managed to prevent enemies from targeting your allies. Unfortunately, this protection does not extend to you. (Activating this power disables any cloak or stealth effects.)
Game doesn't have collision. Weapons already fire through ships to get to their target.
Not only could such a taunt be done as Eng or Sci, but there are lots of other ways that it could be implemented. These different methods don't even have to directly touch the jam/scramble mechanic. Here're some examples I thought of:
1) PBAoE maintained effect, centered on you. Allies within range receive +Stealth bonus (perhaps increasing the closer they are to you); you receive a -Stealth malus. (This could be affected by Starship Stealth skill.)
2) Effect is applied to enemy target(s). Affected foes receive -Perception debuff. You receive a -Stealth debuff that ensures that you remain visible.
3) AoE cloud effect, similar to EWP. Allies within cloud receive +Stealth bonus. You receive a Stealth debuff that counters or exceeds the +Stealth bonus the cloud offers.
I think the Stealth mechanic, now that it's been explained (thanks Bort!), would offer a lot of ways to tinker with this -- plus, the stealth mechanic gives us more of a sliding scale compared to the "all or nothing" effect that Jam/Scramble currently have.
Personally, I'd be less opposed to something working along the lines that you described here. But again, as a form of MES/MEF - it would still be a Science thing. Yes, I know that Stealth is a Tac skill - it's difficult to argue something like that is stupid while clinging to MES being a Sci ability - I know. MES actually makes sense as a Sci ability, imho - Stealth as a Tac skill does not.
Still though, it's one thing for somebody to say "I'm the only target you can see" and another for somebody to say "Nyaaa, nyaaa, you HAVE to target me"...
Which is where something such as what you describe with the +Stealth/-Stealth thing - a sort of PICK ME MEF... still leaves control up to the opposing player.
Thing to consider with this though - is - various things that prevent Stealth would also prevent this. Something to consider if you went with a different mechanic to accomplish the same thing - the I'm the only target you can see thing... is the sheer magnitude of problems that would create in an AoE situation.
Picture the 5v5. Picture 5 Tractor Beams. Nobody's tractored you and it makes you sad. You use your "Hello, ladies..." ability. You just broke 5 Tractor Beams.
I'd personally like to see some sort of Taunt mechanic; I think it'd be an interesting addition that would play with the focus-fire strategy that teams currently rely on.
Personally, I despise artificial threat mechanics and taunts. I think it belittles the intelligence of mobs that supposedly run vast empires...it reduces them to mindless animals. As a player, I do not want another player to be able to reduce me to a mindless animal. As I said previously, I'd find that unbelievably insulting and I'd walk away from the game without a second thought.
Like I said, it's one thing to eff with my Sensors so you're the only target that I can see - you're effing with my Sensors (I still think I should have a chance to resist that happening in the first place if I made that investment to do so...but that's another story)... forcing me to target you though...yeah, no.
Want me to target you? Be a healer. Be the guy putting out the most damage. Be the guy that's going to TRIBBLE up my buffs and CDs. The guy built to tank, that's self-healing, and doing no almost damage? He's no threat. You want to be a threat? Be a threat.
edit: The paragraph right there pretty much sums up why I think the Trinity and artificial threat/taunt mechanics are an abomination.
you know what the best way to be a threat is? dealing damage that cant just be ignored. cruiser damage can just be ignored
It's kind of twisted, thinking about it. My Eng in his Chel Grett can't be ignored even though it's beams (well, Omega Torp, Experimental, 2x Rom Arrays, Hyper-Plasma Torp, Cutting Beam, and 2x Rom Arrays).
Were I to move those same eight weapons to a Cruiser with 4 Tac consoles - it could easily be ignored or easily dealt with...because the Cruiser wouldn't have the Tac abilities (so less damage) and the Cruiser would actually have less overall survivability than the Escort because of the maneuverability/Defense of the Chel Grett compared to the Excelsior/Regent.
There's just all sorts of problems were I to try it in a Cruiser.
Sure, I'm leveling two new Eng (one Fed/one KDF) that will be flying Cruisers - but that's because I've got 2 Eng and 2 Sci that...don't heal. I'm feeling guilty.
Comments
I find it interesting that you and typically have similar concepts on how we wish the design should be and now I know why.
PnP background.
If I told the fighting man of the party he isn't allowed to deal damage pretty sure he wouldn't bother showing up for long. And if I told him he had a taunt ability he would have no clue what I was talking about.
See in PnP the fighting man has a very simple taunt ability. He hits the enemy in the face hard enough to be a legitimate threat. And the guy in the robe, he tries to avoid drawing attention to himself or uses tricks to avoid being eaten when noticed.
^Is the exact point of this thread, there are no drawbacks to DHCs and narrow arc doesn't count, have you seen the turn rates of the only ships that can mount them?
Outside of an Excelsior with warp plasma, cranking Bo3 and 2 it really sucks to run beams now.
On the premade stage, other than for spam clearing, that build becomes very situational.
They added too much healing... and here they are going to add even more.
Ontop of this DHCs started getting better and better, with the addition to A ships with far too high of a turn rate (55+ is insane) to completely mitigate their arc outside of the Z axis.
and B, with the newest addition... Wing Cannons, and 5 DHCs.
Whoever decided any of the above were good ideas should be fired, no questions asked.
We tried to warn them this was coming... and they kept right on anyway. And now they made it even worse.
Cryptic even knows how badly OP healing is now, because every ship that comes out now can mount DHCs. We have a Vesta with Aux Powered DHCs for cripe sake now.
At what point did they decide ''eff it no one cares and they'll just buy buy buy anyway''?
While PuGGing the other night I was Pugteamed w/a player 1st the player was using a KDF toon then Fed Escort. He couldn't understand why his Fed Escort was so easy to kill. I went over various ways to role different defensive boosts/resists etc. Finally, I got around to piloting suggestions like getting out of a forward arc, then only turning to fight when Buff were up.
Of all the suggestions, the one the stood out to that player was the act of piloting to avoid damage then apply damage.
All this passive TRIBBLE does is keep players from learning some very basic things early on like going to a high engine power preset and getting out of an enemies forward arc b/c they never need to.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Well, I'm just going to underline the point I've made before but is probably the most important point:
Highly idiosyncratic game design can make for novel games or games of high quality... But it works counter to how MMOs work because MMOs are ongoing projects with high employee turnover.
A good system is one you can train a new developer to run. Idiosyncratic systems are harder to train new developers to run and result in features going unsupported when turnover happens. (See: The DOff system for an example of this. Great system. Theoretically great at mass producing a form of content. But that doesn't happen. Why? Because Heretic left and it's proven a hard system to train anyone new on, particularly without the original designer on hand to train new people, because he's been gone for a year.)
The more standard a system is between games, the more you can support it when turnover happens.
Highly idiosyncratic PvP (ie. too much unlike other MMOs) will fall apart when you need to pass balance and overall design management off to a new developer every 4-8 months. Either it becomes more like other MMOs or it remains largely unsupported as a feature set.
And Sustained DPS generally belongs to your DPS classes, not your tanking or support classes. Heavily armored classes are not usually allowed to get too competitive at Sustained DPS and are generally given SPIKE or BURST DPS for PvP (and sometimes for tanking, if your aggro/threat system is designed to lead enemies to ignore sustained DPS and pay attention to sources of spikes, even if overall damage is lower).
Pressure DPS is a neologism though. To the extent STO's systems were counterintuitive enough to create a new category of DPS, it can't be part of the design goal and it's doubtful that it's productive to maintain an enigmatic new DPS category that nobody else uses.
In standard design you have two types of damage and tanking. This applies to PvE and PvP by the way.
Burst Damage vs Buffer Tank
Meaning lots of damage over short period of time against a targets raw health. Typically the domain of casters and works well against low health targets. AKA Spike damage in STO.
Sustained Damage vs Sustain Tank
Highest damage over a long period of time working against a targets ability to regenerate/heal/restore health. In STO this would be labeled as 'pressure damage' as it forces the player to react in some way with the hopes of exposing them.
Alterations
Obviously you also have to throw in things like area of effect damage which can go either way along with exotic damage designed to bypass a targets methods of defense. In addition their are other modifications that are at times done such as a 'build up' being required for a character to reach optimum damage or a limit on how often one can activate their burst damage potential. For defense you have several variations including avoiding damage, reducing or mitigating damage, then active or passive, along with healing and resisting effects.
Original Trinity
Fighter: The tank typically has a high sustained damage output which allows him to build up and maintain agro. They also come standard with a high amount of health (buffer) to allow them to survive against burst damage combined with high amounts of damage mitigation or avoidance making them an efficient target of the heal resource available.
Mage: The mage usually lacks the ability to survive against burst damage and also tends to have a low amount of mitigation or avoidance making them a waste of a heal. They are the kings of burst damage though which makes them valuable for burning down high priority targets quickly.
Healer: Heals people, pretty basic. Also tends to buff people making them more effective.
This is the original trinity. You will notice the lack of a 'thief' or melee DPS character because it originally shined outside of combat not within it. You will also notice it bears absolutely no similarity to what most people are referring to with the trinity. It has since been bastardized by many games creating what people are more familiar with being
Meat Shield: Taunts and takes hits
DPS: Puts out high sustained DPS
Healer: Heals people
This also bears little resemblance to the STO ship setup either. The amount of redesign that would be required to shove the square STO ship peg into the round Trinity design is unbelievable. Think about the following things for a second.
1) Escorts are designed to have short time on target with high amounts of Burst damage delivered over a short period of time. A reliance on keeping a high speed for damage avoidance combined with limited ability to heal damage should prevent them from being on target for too long.
2) Cruisers pack the highest quantity of weapon slots and have both the best self tank buff emergency power to shields and ally tank buff with extend.
3) Science Vessels gain a huge bonus to damage output against a target after a time and have the highest passive health regeneration amount. In addition they pack the best heals with transfer shield strength and hazard emitters along with powerful AoE debuffs and CC.
4) ALL boff types pack some combination of the following: Buffs for self and others, A form of hard CC, cleanses or ability to remove debuffs, offensive abilities.
This game fails so hard at trinity it is not even funny. In addition trinity is absolute garbage when the game is played by a casual audience that solos to any large amount. This is why even in WoW or Rift you can make your Tank into a DPS with talent choices. Even the healers can do this. EQ was the last game I know of that was a successful hard trinity setup for the solo game and it never grew like WoW did and one of the reasons for that was the ability for every class to be at least competitive solo.
This entire Trinity/role/etc argument though fails to identify the true problem. The game mechanics and systems, the math and formulas everything is built around, do not scale very well. So when you create power creep the small errors get worse and worse until they break and require a fix. I firmly believe this game was originally designed to end at 40 as after that is when the cracks begin to show. Now you are seeing them break and the former patches applied, like Field Generators and ACC to weapons, are no longer holding up.
Final Thought
Here's the thing. The trinity is popular and effective in group design for a simple reason. Via specialization you achieve higher efficiency. Their is another way to go about it though.
Force Multipliers. And STO has these and when they work they are amazing.
Attack Pattern Beta - This is a huge multiplier for the entire team.
Power Drains - Remember when you actually wanted a Sci in your STF run to shutdown Donotra and Tac Cubes?
Gravity Well / Warp Plasma - Ah accuracy overflow how I love thee
Those are the things that should be focused upon, and improved upon. That is what STO is designed to do well and it does work. The details just need ironed out a bit as now the primary weapon for 2/3rds of the ships in the game is under performing!
It even applied in PvP. You had your Sci who exposed a target to be killed, the escort who did the killing, and the cruiser who tried to stop the killing to put it simply. But now you can't really lock down a target, you don't have the time to stop the killing when it happens, and you can't kill a properly prepared target leading to the current cluster bleep that players are complaining about. The tempo is gone, the pacing has been destroyed, and with it everything else.
The new standard of MMO design does not vary from what people are asking for mate. WoW, Rift, Secret World, GW2, and many others allow a player to perform effectively in a solo situation or choose a role in a group situation via talents or some other form of specialization inherent to the characters. Same with PvE and PvP.
STO has BOFFs that can be changed at will outside of combat and you mean to tell me they cannot figure out a way to mirror that? And that it would be an oddity in the industry for doing so?
In WoW you can easily switch to a secondary spec for levelling or group/solo play. But you can already do this in STO, its not as easy but all you need to do is go to a mayor base and switch ships if you truly feel your cruiser is not up to solo play.
Besides, I don't think STOLev was talking about that, he was referring to unique systems like the Doff system becoming orphanaged once the one guy that knows how to work it leaves (or the one guy that seemed to care about it). The proof of his being correct is that we haven't gotten any new Doff assignments or chains in forever. It should be incredibly easy and quick to whip some new ones every so often but since Heretic left and their feeble attempt at monetizing it via the temporal beacon doff assignments we haven't seen anything new Doffwise have we? Besides potentially unbalancing Doffs....isn't it funny? They can release more Doffs just like they can release more ships, but seem to be allergic to releasing content for them o be used in! Also isn't it soooo coincidental how all their new grinds seem to be based around a modded Doff system?
To think that for a while I actually believed something good was going to be continually supported! Lol!! I should know better, after their terrible monetization attempt of it I should've expected it would be abandoned in its current form, left to stagnate while an altered and changed version would be made to serve some form of monetization.
There are far too much ships using cannons, and far too less ships using torpedos. If I would like to see cannon spam, I would play SWTOR.
Sure, Torps are iconic but are just annoying to use for most. At least for the level of play that STO demands of its playerbase.
Besides, all energy weapon loadouts look better anyway.
I would agree that part of the issue does indeed stem from developers wanting to give everyone the ability to roll solo. In essence, you can't have a role-based PvP game where those players can then saunter off to do things equally effectively alone, because some roles (namely CC) are much stronger than others.
I couldn't really tell you what the solution is, but I'll go on the record as saying that no game based on the trinity will have a stable, competitive PvP scene.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Well said Shimmerless.
I'll also go on record that while I thought the premise of this thread was accurate originally, I've seen a few different builds and tactics as of late that have changed my mind.
It might not be something typical PUG teams can pull off though.
1. it doesn't make much sense, Star Trek-wise
2. Everyone hates forced targetting
3. see point 1
However, if you want PvP Taunt ability. Galaxy-R and Galaxy-X both have passive taunt. Everyone will attack you first. It is a hidden perk of the ship and well-guarded secret. Try it yourself!
Basically what Dalnar said, people hate AMS and SS, because they are annoying and not necessarily powerful.
It also takes away thinking and tactics when you're forced to shoot the brick.
The better solution is to tweak Eng to be better at healing others.
I dont believe you
No thanks, I'll stick to my science oddy... people try to kill me anyway once they realize I'm the healer.
I'll not argue the point it makes no sense in a star trek universe, and yes people hate forced targeting, but forced targeting does exist as well as placate abilities....it could have been an interesting option in pvp when an alpha strike goes out and an engi taunts everyone has to burn their alphas on the tank ...and it could be sub-nuked so there might be an element of when to use SNB in that situation, on the tank or on the alpha target to debuff. Anyway it's just a thought...
I'm fairly new but I figured engineer was the way to go for a healer because of the increased survivability, and cruiser bridge layouts are more suited for hull healing. I realize shield healing is very powerful at the moment but I've run into a few teams that are built to completely bypass shields.
Indeed.
10char
You dont know what your talkig about - DHC's are king. End of
i don't know of anyone who can make more dangerous lol tac fed cruisers then my self, and im the op. it doesn't mater how potent i make them, or how much DPS i can generate with them, the problem still stands, they deal pressure damage, and with the defensive power creep, pressure doesn't do any thing anymore. shield resistance cutting damage more then in half, with hyper regeneration and proc heals with basic distribution, out paces the strongest possible pressure damage, even vs escorts.
only damage that is applied in its entirety before a single tic of regeneration, distribution or healing occurs has any effect, all other damage has 4 shield facings it has to shoot through, and it will never be able to with the most basic station power heals.
The degree of hate for it will vary from player to player. Those that are fine with it in PvE might not be fine with themselves being subject to it in PvP. There are those that absolutely loathe it in PvE and for them - well, flames shoot out their ears and nostrils as their eyes spin round and round.
There is the "don't know who to target" ability, there is the "might be targeting somebody else" ability, and there is the "don't target me" ability as well. From here, there's three routes (imho) toward what you're suggesting.
Forced targeting of the person using the ability.
Only target available being the person using the ability.
Only unfriendly target available being the person using the ability.
The difference for some with the first two would be the difference between a loss of control and a loss of options. For some folks, that's a big difference. The second would work more along the lines of how other abilities work now...so that might be be easier to sell.
But there's a big problem with either of the first two, and thus - that's why there's that third. What's that big problem? Spam the taunt on the healer and you've neutralized the healer. If the healer is unable to target friendlies, the healer can't heal them.
So say you go with that third route then...there are still a few things to work out here. First is whether it's single target or an AoE, eh? Okay, it's not really first - but it's easier, imho, than the next one.
It's mess with sensors, so it's a Science thing. A pretty powerful science thing, no? So if we've got Jam at Ensign and Scramble at Lieutenant, then we're likely looking at <insert name> at Lieutenant Commander. One of those LCdr 1, Cmdr 2&3 things...
...which brings us to the issue of the Science Vessel probably not wanting to be the primary target...lol.
So does that add a misdirect component? Does it become a case of setting a Focus Target for one of our allies (if we don't, it applies to us)...and then triggering the ability to "misdirect" "aggro" to that ally?
Think of the griefing that could ensue, eh? Does it pop up with a confirmation for the person that is the Focus Target? Major distraction in the midst of battle,, eh?
Just so many, so many, oh man so many issues with it...
...and that's before getting into one of my personal dislikes about how Science abilities work in the first place. There's no to-hit rolls nor any pseudo to-hit rolls. I've discussed this ad nauseum in threads outside the PvP forums recently.
Consider the following:
Tom has 9 in Sensors, the Astrophysicist trait, 125 Aux, and all the Sensors gear he could cram on to his ship.
Rick has 0 in Sensors, doesn't have the Astro trait, managed to get 25 Aux, and doesn't have a single piece of Sensors gear on his boat.
Harry has 0 in CMS, managed to get 25 Aux as well, doesn't have any CMS gear on his rig, and is using Jam1.
Harry has the same chance to jam Tom as he does Rick. To me, that is complete BS.
I mean, c'mon - that's like saying somebody could be running +170% or higher Bonus Defense where a person without the Accurate trait, without any points or gear providing Targeting, and without Acc mods on their weapons would have around a 37% chance to-hit with any weapon...somehow manages to have a 100% chance to hit with SNB, Tractor Beam, Tachyon Beam, and various other physical attacks.
Oh wait, that happens too...
...but er, anyway, yeah - adding another ability where Harry could make 0 investment in the ability other than taking the ability and it having the same initial effect on both Rick and Tom - yeah, that just bugs the Hell out of me.
I would have went with "Only unfriendly target available being the person using the ability." The idea (in my mind) is it only affects unfriendly targets, so a healer would continue to be able to heal his teammates, but no one could target anyone on the opposing team but the ability user. I guess that sort of makes the SNB option moot, you would have no choice but to subnuke it off the tank, though maybe science team yourself and then subnuke the intended target, but then you'd have to wait x seconds for your tacs to clear the taunt or science team themselves as well in order to apply the dps...assuming this ability would play by the same rules other buff and debuffs do.
I also thought about making it a limited range AOE deal, 5-7k so the tank would have to either be in the midst of the tacs ...or maybe it works the other way, he has to be in range of the intended target. That might not be such a hot ides considering the low mobility of cruisers. A single target ability might work too if the guy can figure out who is the biggest damage dealer.
As for the way science abilities work, I figured this could be an engi specific skill tied directly to threat control and how many points you have in it directly correlates to how long you can keep your enemies pinned on you.
___
Just so I'm not completely off-topic here, dontdrunkimshoot, how much have you tested with DEM? From what I understand it's very easy to stack 75% resist on shields but it's very hard to stack high resistance on hull without everyone dumping everything they got onto a target (and not having anything left for the next guys should a switch target be called), do you think cruisers would be more effective in dealing pressure damage with some sort of hybrid DEM/transphasic torpedo build?
almost all my non escort builds have DEM, i use it contently. its a poor match with beams, they have too low a fire rate. its best parred with rapid fire single cannons, DCs and turrets. works great on CRF DHCs too even, at least still better then beam arrays.
DEM needs you fireing lots of energy weapons though, so it doesn't play well when you have non energy weapons. its the same as glider, as in it adds an effect per shot.
i use it with my DPS cruisers, it complements the basic damage my spiky kdf cruisers deal, and makes my fed cruisers with single cannons almost ok. but in their case my target is able to keep their shields healthy because im just dealing pressure but can have up to 25% of their hull melted by weapons bleed and DEM in a single alpha. but pretty basic heals can undo DEM's effect completely in that situation. not so much the case with the DHCs on my kdf cruisers, im hitting hull with my actual weapons too.
you would be crazy not to use DEM on a single cannon fed cruiser, or DHC kdf cruiser, that you want to deal damage with. don't use it on a healer though, and don't bother using it with beam arrays ether.
it adds a hundred to hundreds of damage directly to hull, and can crit for over 1000 if your tac buffed enough. regardless if its a turret of DHC that applys the DEM damage, the DEM damage is the same. like i had said before, it deals between 12% and 18% of my total damage. so if i was not using DEM, i would deal 12% to 18% less total damage then i would if i was useing DEM
Drunk, tap me up in game for a demo for a non dual heavy cannon build that does more than suppress
Virus, I think you're being a little too limited in the ways that a "taunt" effect could be applied.
First off, there's no reason that it has to be a Science ability. There are already a lot of abilities in-game that don't seem to make much sense belonging to the profession they do (Boarding Party is engineering? what?). If you're really concerned about the treknobabble fluff behind the ability, then I propose these two variants that would make it Eng or Tac:
Eng - Amplify Energy Signature (MES in reverse?)
Your engineering crew works their magic on the warp core and dramatically amplifies the energy signature of your ship. Your amplified energy signature overwhelms enemy sensors; it's hard to pick out the signatures of your allies from the EM noise that you've created. Unfortunately, as expected, your ship becomes a far more prominent target. (Activating this power disables any cloak or stealth effects.)
Tac - Attack Pattern Suicide (appropriate, no?)
Your conn officer puts your ship through a time-honored manuever: run straight at the enemy, cannons blazing! Through a combination of aggressive posturing, making yourself as large a sensor target as possible, and physically maneuvering to block lines of fire, you've managed to prevent enemies from targeting your allies. Unfortunately, this protection does not extend to you. (Activating this power disables any cloak or stealth effects.)
Not only could such a taunt be done as Eng or Sci, but there are lots of other ways that it could be implemented. These different methods don't even have to directly touch the jam/scramble mechanic. Here're some examples I thought of:
1) PBAoE maintained effect, centered on you. Allies within range receive +Stealth bonus (perhaps increasing the closer they are to you); you receive a -Stealth malus. (This could be affected by Starship Stealth skill.)
2) Effect is applied to enemy target(s). Affected foes receive -Perception debuff. You receive a -Stealth debuff that ensures that you remain visible.
3) AoE cloud effect, similar to EWP. Allies within cloud receive +Stealth bonus. You receive a Stealth debuff that counters or exceeds the +Stealth bonus the cloud offers.
I think the Stealth mechanic, now that it's been explained (thanks Bort!), would offer a lot of ways to tinker with this -- plus, the stealth mechanic gives us more of a sliding scale compared to the "all or nothing" effect that Jam/Scramble currently have.
I'd personally like to see some sort of Taunt mechanic; I think it'd be an interesting addition that would play with the focus-fire strategy that teams currently rely on.
The two main abilities applicable to both cannons/beams that benefit cannons/turrets far more than beams are DEM and Tet Glider. (Am I missing something else?) It wouldn't come close to solving the beam/cannon disparity that currently exists, but moving DEM and Tet glider to a per-weapon-cycle mechanic would definitely help.
Jam Sensors - Science ability
Scramble Sensors - Science ability
Sensor Scan - Science ability
Sensors - Science skill (and thus Science console)
Countermeasures - Science skill (and thus Science console)
MES in reverse, eh? MES is a Science ability too.
Also, something like what you've described would tend to result in targeting being easier - you'd lose Bonus Defense - increase Accuracy Overflow - and go boom.
Game doesn't have collision. Weapons already fire through ships to get to their target.
Personally, I'd be less opposed to something working along the lines that you described here. But again, as a form of MES/MEF - it would still be a Science thing. Yes, I know that Stealth is a Tac skill - it's difficult to argue something like that is stupid while clinging to MES being a Sci ability - I know. MES actually makes sense as a Sci ability, imho - Stealth as a Tac skill does not.
Still though, it's one thing for somebody to say "I'm the only target you can see" and another for somebody to say "Nyaaa, nyaaa, you HAVE to target me"...
Which is where something such as what you describe with the +Stealth/-Stealth thing - a sort of PICK ME MEF... still leaves control up to the opposing player.
Thing to consider with this though - is - various things that prevent Stealth would also prevent this. Something to consider if you went with a different mechanic to accomplish the same thing - the I'm the only target you can see thing... is the sheer magnitude of problems that would create in an AoE situation.
Picture the 5v5. Picture 5 Tractor Beams. Nobody's tractored you and it makes you sad. You use your "Hello, ladies..." ability. You just broke 5 Tractor Beams.
Personally, I despise artificial threat mechanics and taunts. I think it belittles the intelligence of mobs that supposedly run vast empires...it reduces them to mindless animals. As a player, I do not want another player to be able to reduce me to a mindless animal. As I said previously, I'd find that unbelievably insulting and I'd walk away from the game without a second thought.
Like I said, it's one thing to eff with my Sensors so you're the only target that I can see - you're effing with my Sensors (I still think I should have a chance to resist that happening in the first place if I made that investment to do so...but that's another story)... forcing me to target you though...yeah, no.
Want me to target you? Be a healer. Be the guy putting out the most damage. Be the guy that's going to TRIBBLE up my buffs and CDs. The guy built to tank, that's self-healing, and doing no almost damage? He's no threat. You want to be a threat? Be a threat.
edit: The paragraph right there pretty much sums up why I think the Trinity and artificial threat/taunt mechanics are an abomination.
It's kind of twisted, thinking about it. My Eng in his Chel Grett can't be ignored even though it's beams (well, Omega Torp, Experimental, 2x Rom Arrays, Hyper-Plasma Torp, Cutting Beam, and 2x Rom Arrays).
Were I to move those same eight weapons to a Cruiser with 4 Tac consoles - it could easily be ignored or easily dealt with...because the Cruiser wouldn't have the Tac abilities (so less damage) and the Cruiser would actually have less overall survivability than the Escort because of the maneuverability/Defense of the Chel Grett compared to the Excelsior/Regent.
There's just all sorts of problems were I to try it in a Cruiser.
Sure, I'm leveling two new Eng (one Fed/one KDF) that will be flying Cruisers - but that's because I've got 2 Eng and 2 Sci that...don't heal. I'm feeling guilty.