I just want my engineers to fly the galaxy class again and not have people berate me in team chat when I'm in an STF over my ship choice.
And this happens OFTEN by the way.
They simply just don't need a tank or even a healer, where DPS rules.
Thank God my Vesta can hold her own AND heal, but where does that leave cruisers?
Some players leave missions if they see a majority of cruisers.
I appreciate the holy trinity and those who appreciate ship classes, but truth be told, unless the way these PVE queues change, you aren't going to get the "appropriate" mix of classes every time.
And sorry, but a bunch of slow moving cruisers in a Starbase alert often = FAIL.
I've flew escorts as a main for almost two years, so I have this to add.
Cruisers don't need a buff, it's escorts that need a nerf.
When the Andorian ship was released it had an issue whereby it's shield mod was much lower and all it's healing was about 1/3 effective. It was still possible to tank, but for the first time an escort was what it should be, a glass cannon.
This is pretty much how every escort should be like at T5. This way you actually have a real choice, since at the moment flying an escort is to have your cake and eat it. An escort at the moment can tank pretty much anything yet deal uber damage at the same time.
A nerf to it's shield and healing abilities would mean cruisers will have a fighting chance of keeping up with them.
Also they need to bring back the old weapon drain mechanics. The present weapon drain mechanics is one of the things that's causing escorts to have such crazy damage.
Cruisers need a turnrate buff. Beam Arrays need a drain fix.
Escorts do not need a nerf.
The new drain mechanic is also why Beam Arrays suck at this time.
DHCs have "rest" period that helps them instantly regain the drained weapons power. Beam Arrays do not and contiuosly drain power even while the mechanic tries to regain it rsulting in a bogging down effect.
The defiant was considered a major tactical threat in DS9, if you don't remember check episodes out when they lost control of it, Dukat mentions it multiple times.
The battles were always a representation of what happened, since single incidents can't be held up under scrutiny. If Sisko ordered Galaxies to provide cover for the main thrust there was reason, whatever the visuals showed are just visuals and effects.
In the battles the Defiant was vulnerable, it always had support (which was always exploding) whether it was fighter squadrons, lighter star ships or klingons, something was supposed to be covering them. I'm sure they'd have love to have a cruiser, but we know they just couldn't keep up. Even without its support that ship took some major hits, and always seem to be more operational than any cruiser.
Making an escort as a "glass cannon" would be completely non-canon. We need a game balance, we need to cut down on the ability to chain speed tanking probably. I wouldn't mind seeing APA, APO and APB/APD all on shared cooldowns, that never made sense to me.
Cruisers need some abilities fixed, they do very well if made right. I'd be worried about too much of a buff or you'll see tac cruisers out dpsing tac escorts.
... I'd be worried about too much of a buff or you'll see tac cruisers out dpsing tac escorts.
That would be really terrible. :rolleyes:
A ship 10x times the size, power and resources, having more Firepower than those little annoying jetfighter/X-Wing/Tiefighter/whatever thing/ship/escorts?
... just terrible...
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I wouldn't mind seeing APA, APO and APB/APD all on shared cooldowns, that never made sense to me.
APO, APB, and APD already share a cooldown; APA doesn't because it's a captain power, and AFAIK, no captain power in the game triggers CD on anything else, or vice versa
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
A ship 10x times the size, power and resources, having more Firepower than those little annoying jetfighter/X-Wing/Tiefighter/whatever thing/ship/escorts?
... just terrible...
So you want Cruisers to simultaneously out-DPS escorts, and be more durable?
Cruisers are fine as they are. Maybe a bit more turn, but their weapons and hull are fine. Escorts are fine. Cannons are fine. Beams are fine. Stay with me a sec.
The problem is the BO abilities. It's not the ship but the BO abilities, their number and rank, which determine a ship's capabilities. Tactical's BO abilities are superb (especially cannon), Science are pretty good, and Engineer BO abilities are dull, passive, and relatively ineffectual.
Tac BO abilities all do *something*. You get more torpedoes now, more cannons now, move faster and hit harder now. And they are all very good percentage increases to DPS.
Science BO abilities heal hull, heal shields, drain power, disable, repel, hold, etc. Lots of nice tricks even if they aren't direct BOOM type powers.
Engineer abilities are almost all power related and lock each other out. This has two problems: one is they limit the number of useful powers you can have and power increases are fairly passive in nature. Let's take a look at the powers:
ET - direct hull heal, locks out ST and TT, and TT is by far a stronger option for survivability.
EPtX - Can only have max 4, but account for most of the lower tier.
AtS - Good hull heal, short cooldown, relies on Aux. Locks out AtD and AtB
AtB - Takes Aux, gives power to other three. So it's a different type of power boost. Neuters science abilities, can be abused horribly with Technician DOFFs.
AtD - Extra maneuverability, prot vs. kinetic. A good power but overshined by AtS and AtB, which lock it out. This is where we *should* be going to overcome cruiser turn rate.
ES - Great support power, but out of sync with the whole "me tank" concept.
EWP - Superb offensive power. But hard to apply with the low inertia/turn of cruisers. I get much more use out of EWP1 on my Vesta.
Aceton Beam - Not very popular. Good against one target I guess for energy debuff, but doesn't debuff the mega ultra one-hit-kill torps.
Boarding Party - I must confess, I don't really use these. But some people appear to like them.
DEM - Decent power. 30s every 2 minutes for a bit of extra damage. However, DEM3 adds maybe about 15% more damage? So 25% up time of +15% damage. For reference CRF3 is 10s every 30s for 50% more damage. So 33% up time of +50% damage. That's a big gap for the sole commander level power a ship gets. Plus it doesn't really fit.
RSP - This is the type of power that all Engineering abilities should be. It does something immediate and tangible for a short duration that increases survivability substantially.
With DOFFs reducing cooldowns, adding extra power, etc. It's not even necessary to have that many engineer slots. My Armitage with one LtC engineer slot and 3 purple Damage Control Engineers has constant uptime EPtW1 and EPtS2 and still has a AtS2 for hull healing and damage resistance, as well as 2 TT to cycle. It's as tough as most cruisers.
Technicians and AtB are worse. If I run a cruiser now, I want 2 AtB and 3 purple tech doffs. I run AtB/Technicians on my Vesta. And my Jem'Hadar HEC. They're just so ridiculously good. Do you know what's it's like to have GW3 and EWP1 together on 30s CDs? It's awesome.
I'm not going to even touch Eng captain vs Tac captain abilities.
The game is 3 years old, and Cryptic has yet to do a solid review on BO abilities. They need tuning across the board. And Engineering BO abilities need to be active, contribute to resilience in a meaningful manner, and not trivialized or obsoleted by the DOFF system.
Fix and tune BO abilities, and Escorts vs Cruisers will fall in line.
The ultimate problem with this issue is that there is too much division around it. For every two people saying cruisers need a buff, there's an escort fanboy ready to weigh in the opposite opinion because he's terrified of having his supremacy challenged.
The devs won't touch this subject with a thirtynine and a half foot pole because the community is not of one mind and one voice about it.
For every cruiser fanboy that whines about their ship, I present synergy. That is what STO needs. Games that undertake the Grand Amalgamation are games that have died and those who support it are fools.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Yes, I get APA is a captain power, but its kinda non-sense to run 2 attack patterns at the same time, isn't it? You can do one or the other in reality. The only problem is if it resets it back to 50% CD it'd be a nightmare, if it could lock out other attack patterns it'd be better.
Sorry, yreodred, I have to ignore pretty much all your posts. You are way too far in cruiser fanboi land to have any credibility.
how exactly did the old drain mechanics work? i came to the game a few weeks over a year ago, so i've only seen the current drain mechanics
Current drain mechanics replenish weapon power as soon as the weapon finishes it's firing cycle (not including beam overload). With the old weapon drain mechanics, weapon power replenishment was gradual and was affected by EPS power transfer.
What this basically means is that after four heavy cannons are fired once, it'd take a few seconds or so for you to fully replenish 48 power. This made weapon drain something important to consider, unlike nowadays where you can strap 5DHCs and 2 turrets to an escort and still not worry about the drain.
It's also why DHCs are so damn powerful now. The original design intention was for their power drain to be replenished over time as such curbing their crazy damage.
Just increase the dps on my Galaxy-X and it should be fine. - jk...
Honestly I agree that the poor Cruisers kind of get the shaft all over the place. Really the only thing you can do as a Eng/Cruiser captain is heal. Your DPS isn't all that great, and all the offensive ability of the cruisers is easily countered, so it doesn't mean much.
The other thing I've been seeing lately is that science ships are able to heal just about as good as some fully loaded cruisers. Not to say that they do the same, but it's a pretty good chunk, so you see a lot of PVP teams rocking 3 sci ships and 2 tac's. Engineer's aren't completely useless, they do serve a purpose, but it's only one, Heals.
Ultimately i'd like the cruisers to float a little bit on either side of the spectrum, DPS or debuff's, it really doesn't matter, but it seems that lately a lot of the ships released can do a multitude of different roles. Cruisers just seem to always be stuck in the same role.
Anyway, just my thoughts on it. I still love to fly the cruisers for the challenge if anything.
For every cruiser fanboy that whines about their ship, I present synergy.
That's kind of funny for me since the Advanced Escort my tactical captain got at RA levels and flew up until I came back from a long break? I named it the USS Synergy.
They were ok, but not the best. The basic point I was making with that statement is that the gap between sci heals and eng heals is becoming very close.
Current drain mechanics replenish weapon power as soon as the weapon finishes it's firing cycle (not including beam overload). With the old weapon drain mechanics, weapon power replenishment was gradual and was affected by EPS power transfer.
What this basically means is that after four heavy cannons are fired once, it'd take a few seconds or so for you to fully replenish 48 power. This made weapon drain something important to consider, unlike nowadays where you can strap 5DHCs and 2 turrets to an escort and still not worry about the drain.
It's also why DHCs are so damn powerful now. The original design intention was for their power drain to be replenished over time as such curbing their crazy damage.
so when did they switch over from the old system to the new system, and what was the reason for doing so? assuming they actually gave a reason, of course
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
so when did they switch over from the old system to the new system, and what was the reason for doing so? assuming they actually gave a reason, of course
The change happened over a year ago (probably closer to two, but I'm not 100% on that) because if you didn't invest in (multiple) EPS consoles, you eventually got to a point where you drained your weapon power to 0 with sustained firing.
This occured for any energy weapon type, not just DHCs. It basically meant that you had to dedicate at least one, oftentime two, engineering console slots purely to EPS consoles if you wanted to be able to be viable in prolonged engagements.
You don't see them taking any damage at all. What you see is them beating a Galor out of the way; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoIFUJxJwcQ; you see it at around 1:00, the Galor is shooting up the little ships, then the Galaxys move in at set it listing away in just a few shots.
Combat footage from the shows is an unreliable indicator; but the implication here is that the Galaxys were sent in because they were powerful enough to take them, not just tough enough to withstand them.
Poor word choice on my part. The point I was trying to make was that because the primary objective of that battle was not to destroy the Dominion fleet, but to instead get as many ships as possible past the Dominion blockade and within striking range of DS9, the Galaxy's offensive capability (while not unsubstantial) was secondary to it's capacity to redirect fire away from more fragile ships in the allied fleet.
I've thrown my suggestion out a couple of times, so far some have agreed it's an acceptable solution.
Cruisers gain +100% damage vs escorts, +50% damage vs sci ships
Cruisers gain +50% hull resistance vs Escorts, +25% hull resistance vs sci ships
Cruisers gain nothing when facing another cruiser
Escorts gain +50% damage vs escorts, +25% damage vs sci ships, nothing gained vs cruisers
Escorts gain no new tanking abilities or bonuses
Sci ships gain +100% damage and effectiveness of their science skills vs Escorts, +50% vs cruisers, nothing gained vs other sci ships
Sci ships gain +100% shield resistance vs Escorts, +50% shield resistance vs Cruisers
These numbers can obviously be tweaked to make sure balance is provided. However, these innate ship bonuses leave intact all abilities just as they are with every ship, the only difference is you're now getting a bonus or paying for the ship you're in. These numbers are slightly skewed in favor of both the cruiser and science ships, due to the sheer damage power of the escorts.
Now, this can also be added to PVE as well as PVP. Classifying each opponent as a class of ship, provides them with these bonuses. You can even include special classes like "Borg Cube" with +200% damage vs everything (Numbers may vary) in order to now make their pressure damage more pressured vs people trying to use a single escort against that borg cube.
Is my suggestion perfect? No, but I do believe it to be one of the better ones that takes the least amount of effort and doesn't drastically change skills and abilities but can alter the way the game is played in both PVE and PVP.
Keep in mind also, that these numbers can also be applied to the KDF side, because obviously we can't just leave them out. They can also receive their own version as well that more fits their ships.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
So you want Cruisers to simultaneously out-DPS escorts, and be more durable?
Some Cruisers could do this easily if STO where a Star Trek simulation.
But sadly, since STO is a MMO i belive they should be more equal, but with different focus on how they deliver Dps.
Escorts should be focussed in single target killing while Cruiser should be great in doing equal AOE dps.
Speaking of durability, i think both should be equal durable, but just like DPS with other means. While Escorts get a high defensive bonus when moving fast, cruisers have to heal and res buff themselves more.
Thats how i would "balance" a Star Trek MMO. But i wouldn't turn cruisers or Escorts into supporters and healers for the other ship type, this is just nonsense in a Star trek game anyway.
Choosing a ship should be personal preference and not depend on what does more damage and everyone else has to fly the boring cruisers. I don't know about you, but for me Star Trek ships are more than just stats and numbers, they represent something and i just refuse to fly a small overpowered excessive gunship. For me that's just not Star Trek anymore. But that's just my personal preference.
Things would be completely different if this where NOT a star Trek game. I could easily live with a game mechanic like we have in STO. But Cryptics Stone/Paper/Scissor mechanic takes away the uniqueness of Star Trek ships IMO.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
In the battles the Defiant was vulnerable, it always had support (which was always exploding) whether it was fighter squadrons, lighter star ships or klingons, something was supposed to be covering them. I'm sure they'd have love to have a cruiser, but we know they just couldn't keep up. Even without its support that ship took some major hits, and always seem to be more operational than any cruiser.
Making an escort as a "glass cannon" would be completely non-canon. We need a game balance, we need to cut down on the ability to chain speed tanking probably. I wouldn't mind seeing APA, APO and APB/APD all on shared cooldowns, that never made sense to me.
The problem here is that escorts (or maybe warships?), like the defaint are not glass cannons in canon, however, they suffer some major drawbacks. No advanced science or medical stations, no large cargo storage, short mission range and a low amount of crew men.
Nothing counts in STO. All what count is damage and healing, thats all.
Do you think the Defaint could have survived as long as the Voyager in deep space? I think not.
Do you think the Defaint could have defend a colony by beaming security troops down? Opps, to few crew men to defend against 500 attackers.
Do you think they could provide maybe at least supplies or rescue refugees? No, too less crew quarters and storage capacity.
Do you think, that the Defaint could have invented transwarp drive with nearly no science stations? I don't think so.
Do you think an high ranked ambassador of an newly discovered civilization would share it's quarter with Worf because of the limited space on board? Hm let me think ... no.
Do you think the Defaint could have help to stop spreading of a disease by inventing new immunizations? "Mr Worf, what do you doing, you destroying our 2x2 m science lab???!" "I kill the virus witrh my Batleth, captain!"
so when did they switch over from the old system to the new system, and what was the reason for doing so? assuming they actually gave a reason, of course
The reason was people were overly abusing EPS Flow Regulators. It was the ONLY Engi console anyone used.
So they changed the mechanic on energy drain. And they changed EPS Flow Regulators to no longer affect energy replenishment that way.
The weapon energy drain mechanic will be changing once this build goes to Holodeck. Weapon Power drain is now instantly refunded at the end of a weapons firing cycle, instead of a slow return as was previously implemented. Multiple weapons being fired at the same time will still produce a significant drain and will affect their damage proportionately, but once the weapons stop firing, the weapon power level will immediately return to normal.
This change was primarily inspired by player feedback - specifically on the topic of the energy drain caused by firing multiple bursts of energy weapons. Players may now fire all of their energy weapons repeatedly burst after burst, but the damage for each weapon is still diminished during the firing cycle.
As a result of this change to the energy drain mechanic, the EPS Flow Regulator Station Mods, will no longer have an effect on DPS. They will continue to function to improve power transfer rates between different systems.
The reason was people were overly abusing EPS Flow Regulators. It was the ONLY Engi console anyone used.
So they changed the mechanic on energy drain. And they changed EPS Flow Regulators to no longer affect energy replenishment that way.
that could've been fixed simply by making it so only one EPS flow regulator had any effect, and any more were just wastes of console space, or even just limiting them to one per ship
i'll never understand why, when faced with a problem that has an easy solution and a convoluted solution, cryptic always picks the convoluted solution, often fixing the immediate problem, but breaking so many other things in the process
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Sorry, for being off topic.
If times wheren't that evil, i would love to have this as my signature.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I don't understand this 'escorts are OP thing' my cruiser can do just as much dps as my escort in something like ISE. Heck I regularly come in 1st place in fleet events over escorts. I just fly my escort more because it's more fun to me, but that's my playstyle.
Have you parsed that? I bet it doesnt beat my escort. It might be escorts with silly boff builds and 1 beam array in back and 1 quantum fore and aft. Blech. Comparing a well-built escort to a well-built cruiser, the escort can dish out WAY more damage, and the cruiser should be able to TAKE a lot more damage.
Here's the problem though, absorbing damage is only an asset if you can, you know, actually take the damage. As in, take threat, have things focus you, etc, like a tank does! This means that for one, they need 1) make escorts die in 1, 2 or 3 hits if they are focused by elite packs or bosses without a healer, 2) overhaul threat mechanics, make them predictable and managable. If a cruiser has threat control maxed AND a threat scaling +Th console, then they should have threat, period. And sure maybe theres some AoE to avoid, or whatever other mechanics, but please fix threat. And then the coupdegrace: 3) They need to make queues for STFs enforce the holy trinity, i.e. at least a tank, a healer, and 3 dps, or 2 dps and a cc or whatever. 4) This is more optional but would be nice: NEW STFs where CC and science abilities are made necessary to complete, rather than either useless, or just nice to have around when someone screws up! Oh, and number 0) which I forgot, was that all ships should have roughly equitable turn rates. Turn rate should have zero to do with size, or tankiness, or ability to do damage, make it all the same, and all fun. The tradeoffs should be tankiness versus heals versus damage versus CC. So, equalize all turn rates!
____________________________________________________
Pay no attention to the dates and titles under my name at the left! I am a Career Officer, Lifetime Sub since launch, was in the Beta. Having problems with my forum account.
To be honest... did some pvp last night in my Assault Cruiser Refit. I have a Plasma Beam Aux to Battery build on it and it did quite awesome. Went against 3 Heavy damage escorts(Patrol, Chel Grett, and Kumari) and on my team I had.... a Normal Assault Cruiser(forward facing plasma build) and a fully set up Temporal Destroyer with all the bells and whistles. I found that not only did my Regent do decent but it did quite amazingly with the omni directional damage and Directed Energy Modulation spam. Just saying though 2 cruisers and an escort against 3 escorts(one kumari which is supposedly overpowered) and we won with no issue what-so-ever. Everyone in this 3 v 3 was very well equipped so there were no handicaps either.
Comments
And this happens OFTEN by the way.
They simply just don't need a tank or even a healer, where DPS rules.
Thank God my Vesta can hold her own AND heal, but where does that leave cruisers?
Some players leave missions if they see a majority of cruisers.
I appreciate the holy trinity and those who appreciate ship classes, but truth be told, unless the way these PVE queues change, you aren't going to get the "appropriate" mix of classes every time.
And sorry, but a bunch of slow moving cruisers in a Starbase alert often = FAIL.
Since when has that ever stopped Cryptic from implementing things AS THEY SEE FIT, in the past?
Cruisers need a turnrate buff. Beam Arrays need a drain fix.
Escorts do not need a nerf.
The new drain mechanic is also why Beam Arrays suck at this time.
DHCs have "rest" period that helps them instantly regain the drained weapons power. Beam Arrays do not and contiuosly drain power even while the mechanic tries to regain it rsulting in a bogging down effect.
R.I.P
The battles were always a representation of what happened, since single incidents can't be held up under scrutiny. If Sisko ordered Galaxies to provide cover for the main thrust there was reason, whatever the visuals showed are just visuals and effects.
In the battles the Defiant was vulnerable, it always had support (which was always exploding) whether it was fighter squadrons, lighter star ships or klingons, something was supposed to be covering them. I'm sure they'd have love to have a cruiser, but we know they just couldn't keep up. Even without its support that ship took some major hits, and always seem to be more operational than any cruiser.
Making an escort as a "glass cannon" would be completely non-canon. We need a game balance, we need to cut down on the ability to chain speed tanking probably. I wouldn't mind seeing APA, APO and APB/APD all on shared cooldowns, that never made sense to me.
Cruisers need some abilities fixed, they do very well if made right. I'd be worried about too much of a buff or you'll see tac cruisers out dpsing tac escorts.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
A ship 10x times the size, power and resources, having more Firepower than those little annoying jetfighter/X-Wing/Tiefighter/whatever thing/ship/escorts?
... just terrible...
APO, APB, and APD already share a cooldown; APA doesn't because it's a captain power, and AFAIK, no captain power in the game triggers CD on anything else, or vice versa
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Hang on a mo...
"Escorts do need a nerf"
You have always been adament that they don't... What changed?
So you want Cruisers to simultaneously out-DPS escorts, and be more durable?
The problem is the BO abilities. It's not the ship but the BO abilities, their number and rank, which determine a ship's capabilities. Tactical's BO abilities are superb (especially cannon), Science are pretty good, and Engineer BO abilities are dull, passive, and relatively ineffectual.
Tac BO abilities all do *something*. You get more torpedoes now, more cannons now, move faster and hit harder now. And they are all very good percentage increases to DPS.
Science BO abilities heal hull, heal shields, drain power, disable, repel, hold, etc. Lots of nice tricks even if they aren't direct BOOM type powers.
Engineer abilities are almost all power related and lock each other out. This has two problems: one is they limit the number of useful powers you can have and power increases are fairly passive in nature. Let's take a look at the powers:
ET - direct hull heal, locks out ST and TT, and TT is by far a stronger option for survivability.
EPtX - Can only have max 4, but account for most of the lower tier.
AtS - Good hull heal, short cooldown, relies on Aux. Locks out AtD and AtB
AtB - Takes Aux, gives power to other three. So it's a different type of power boost. Neuters science abilities, can be abused horribly with Technician DOFFs.
AtD - Extra maneuverability, prot vs. kinetic. A good power but overshined by AtS and AtB, which lock it out. This is where we *should* be going to overcome cruiser turn rate.
ES - Great support power, but out of sync with the whole "me tank" concept.
EWP - Superb offensive power. But hard to apply with the low inertia/turn of cruisers. I get much more use out of EWP1 on my Vesta.
Aceton Beam - Not very popular. Good against one target I guess for energy debuff, but doesn't debuff the mega ultra one-hit-kill torps.
Boarding Party - I must confess, I don't really use these. But some people appear to like them.
DEM - Decent power. 30s every 2 minutes for a bit of extra damage. However, DEM3 adds maybe about 15% more damage? So 25% up time of +15% damage. For reference CRF3 is 10s every 30s for 50% more damage. So 33% up time of +50% damage. That's a big gap for the sole commander level power a ship gets. Plus it doesn't really fit.
RSP - This is the type of power that all Engineering abilities should be. It does something immediate and tangible for a short duration that increases survivability substantially.
With DOFFs reducing cooldowns, adding extra power, etc. It's not even necessary to have that many engineer slots. My Armitage with one LtC engineer slot and 3 purple Damage Control Engineers has constant uptime EPtW1 and EPtS2 and still has a AtS2 for hull healing and damage resistance, as well as 2 TT to cycle. It's as tough as most cruisers.
Technicians and AtB are worse. If I run a cruiser now, I want 2 AtB and 3 purple tech doffs. I run AtB/Technicians on my Vesta. And my Jem'Hadar HEC. They're just so ridiculously good. Do you know what's it's like to have GW3 and EWP1 together on 30s CDs? It's awesome.
I'm not going to even touch Eng captain vs Tac captain abilities.
The game is 3 years old, and Cryptic has yet to do a solid review on BO abilities. They need tuning across the board. And Engineering BO abilities need to be active, contribute to resilience in a meaningful manner, and not trivialized or obsoleted by the DOFF system.
Fix and tune BO abilities, and Escorts vs Cruisers will fall in line.
For every cruiser fanboy that whines about their ship, I present synergy. That is what STO needs. Games that undertake the Grand Amalgamation are games that have died and those who support it are fools.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
No change. Im typing on a smart phone and missed a word. Ill fix it.
R.I.P
It seems many cruiser pilots want the days of Zombie cruisers and no-miss Bfaw back.
R.I.P
Sorry, yreodred, I have to ignore pretty much all your posts. You are way too far in cruiser fanboi land to have any credibility.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
Current drain mechanics replenish weapon power as soon as the weapon finishes it's firing cycle (not including beam overload). With the old weapon drain mechanics, weapon power replenishment was gradual and was affected by EPS power transfer.
What this basically means is that after four heavy cannons are fired once, it'd take a few seconds or so for you to fully replenish 48 power. This made weapon drain something important to consider, unlike nowadays where you can strap 5DHCs and 2 turrets to an escort and still not worry about the drain.
It's also why DHCs are so damn powerful now. The original design intention was for their power drain to be replenished over time as such curbing their crazy damage.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Honestly I agree that the poor Cruisers kind of get the shaft all over the place. Really the only thing you can do as a Eng/Cruiser captain is heal. Your DPS isn't all that great, and all the offensive ability of the cruisers is easily countered, so it doesn't mean much.
The other thing I've been seeing lately is that science ships are able to heal just about as good as some fully loaded cruisers. Not to say that they do the same, but it's a pretty good chunk, so you see a lot of PVP teams rocking 3 sci ships and 2 tac's. Engineer's aren't completely useless, they do serve a purpose, but it's only one, Heals.
Ultimately i'd like the cruisers to float a little bit on either side of the spectrum, DPS or debuff's, it really doesn't matter, but it seems that lately a lot of the ships released can do a multitude of different roles. Cruisers just seem to always be stuck in the same role.
Anyway, just my thoughts on it. I still love to fly the cruisers for the challenge if anything.
That's kind of funny for me since the Advanced Escort my tactical captain got at RA levels and flew up until I came back from a long break? I named it the USS Synergy.
Science has always been able to heal well.
They were ok, but not the best. The basic point I was making with that statement is that the gap between sci heals and eng heals is becoming very close.
so when did they switch over from the old system to the new system, and what was the reason for doing so? assuming they actually gave a reason, of course
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The change happened over a year ago (probably closer to two, but I'm not 100% on that) because if you didn't invest in (multiple) EPS consoles, you eventually got to a point where you drained your weapon power to 0 with sustained firing.
This occured for any energy weapon type, not just DHCs. It basically meant that you had to dedicate at least one, oftentime two, engineering console slots purely to EPS consoles if you wanted to be able to be viable in prolonged engagements.
Poor word choice on my part. The point I was trying to make was that because the primary objective of that battle was not to destroy the Dominion fleet, but to instead get as many ships as possible past the Dominion blockade and within striking range of DS9, the Galaxy's offensive capability (while not unsubstantial) was secondary to it's capacity to redirect fire away from more fragile ships in the allied fleet.
Cruisers gain +100% damage vs escorts, +50% damage vs sci ships
Cruisers gain +50% hull resistance vs Escorts, +25% hull resistance vs sci ships
Cruisers gain nothing when facing another cruiser
Escorts gain +50% damage vs escorts, +25% damage vs sci ships, nothing gained vs cruisers
Escorts gain no new tanking abilities or bonuses
Sci ships gain +100% damage and effectiveness of their science skills vs Escorts, +50% vs cruisers, nothing gained vs other sci ships
Sci ships gain +100% shield resistance vs Escorts, +50% shield resistance vs Cruisers
These numbers can obviously be tweaked to make sure balance is provided. However, these innate ship bonuses leave intact all abilities just as they are with every ship, the only difference is you're now getting a bonus or paying for the ship you're in. These numbers are slightly skewed in favor of both the cruiser and science ships, due to the sheer damage power of the escorts.
Now, this can also be added to PVE as well as PVP. Classifying each opponent as a class of ship, provides them with these bonuses. You can even include special classes like "Borg Cube" with +200% damage vs everything (Numbers may vary) in order to now make their pressure damage more pressured vs people trying to use a single escort against that borg cube.
Is my suggestion perfect? No, but I do believe it to be one of the better ones that takes the least amount of effort and doesn't drastically change skills and abilities but can alter the way the game is played in both PVE and PVP.
Keep in mind also, that these numbers can also be applied to the KDF side, because obviously we can't just leave them out. They can also receive their own version as well that more fits their ships.
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Some Cruisers could do this easily if STO where a Star Trek simulation.
But sadly, since STO is a MMO i belive they should be more equal, but with different focus on how they deliver Dps.
Escorts should be focussed in single target killing while Cruiser should be great in doing equal AOE dps.
Speaking of durability, i think both should be equal durable, but just like DPS with other means. While Escorts get a high defensive bonus when moving fast, cruisers have to heal and res buff themselves more.
Thats how i would "balance" a Star Trek MMO. But i wouldn't turn cruisers or Escorts into supporters and healers for the other ship type, this is just nonsense in a Star trek game anyway.
Choosing a ship should be personal preference and not depend on what does more damage and everyone else has to fly the boring cruisers. I don't know about you, but for me Star Trek ships are more than just stats and numbers, they represent something and i just refuse to fly a small overpowered excessive gunship. For me that's just not Star Trek anymore. But that's just my personal preference.
Things would be completely different if this where NOT a star Trek game. I could easily live with a game mechanic like we have in STO. But Cryptics Stone/Paper/Scissor mechanic takes away the uniqueness of Star Trek ships IMO.
The problem here is that escorts (or maybe warships?), like the defaint are not glass cannons in canon, however, they suffer some major drawbacks. No advanced science or medical stations, no large cargo storage, short mission range and a low amount of crew men.
Nothing counts in STO. All what count is damage and healing, thats all.
Do you think the Defaint could have survived as long as the Voyager in deep space? I think not.
Do you think the Defaint could have defend a colony by beaming security troops down? Opps, to few crew men to defend against 500 attackers.
Do you think they could provide maybe at least supplies or rescue refugees? No, too less crew quarters and storage capacity.
Do you think, that the Defaint could have invented transwarp drive with nearly no science stations? I don't think so.
Do you think an high ranked ambassador of an newly discovered civilization would share it's quarter with Worf because of the limited space on board? Hm let me think ... no.
Do you think the Defaint could have help to stop spreading of a disease by inventing new immunizations? "Mr Worf, what do you doing, you destroying our 2x2 m science lab???!" "I kill the virus witrh my Batleth, captain!"
The reason was people were overly abusing EPS Flow Regulators. It was the ONLY Engi console anyone used.
So they changed the mechanic on energy drain. And they changed EPS Flow Regulators to no longer affect energy replenishment that way.
that could've been fixed simply by making it so only one EPS flow regulator had any effect, and any more were just wastes of console space, or even just limiting them to one per ship
i'll never understand why, when faced with a problem that has an easy solution and a convoluted solution, cryptic always picks the convoluted solution, often fixing the immediate problem, but breaking so many other things in the process
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Ah, I remember those (awful) times. Funny though that some people still think that weapons work that way.....
Oh and good to see you're back !
Sorry, for being off topic.
If times wheren't that evil, i would love to have this as my signature.
Have you parsed that? I bet it doesnt beat my escort. It might be escorts with silly boff builds and 1 beam array in back and 1 quantum fore and aft. Blech. Comparing a well-built escort to a well-built cruiser, the escort can dish out WAY more damage, and the cruiser should be able to TAKE a lot more damage.
Here's the problem though, absorbing damage is only an asset if you can, you know, actually take the damage. As in, take threat, have things focus you, etc, like a tank does! This means that for one, they need 1) make escorts die in 1, 2 or 3 hits if they are focused by elite packs or bosses without a healer, 2) overhaul threat mechanics, make them predictable and managable. If a cruiser has threat control maxed AND a threat scaling +Th console, then they should have threat, period. And sure maybe theres some AoE to avoid, or whatever other mechanics, but please fix threat. And then the coupdegrace: 3) They need to make queues for STFs enforce the holy trinity, i.e. at least a tank, a healer, and 3 dps, or 2 dps and a cc or whatever. 4) This is more optional but would be nice: NEW STFs where CC and science abilities are made necessary to complete, rather than either useless, or just nice to have around when someone screws up! Oh, and number 0) which I forgot, was that all ships should have roughly equitable turn rates. Turn rate should have zero to do with size, or tankiness, or ability to do damage, make it all the same, and all fun. The tradeoffs should be tankiness versus heals versus damage versus CC. So, equalize all turn rates!
Pay no attention to the dates and titles under my name at the left! I am a Career Officer, Lifetime Sub since launch, was in the Beta. Having problems with my forum account.