it should be easy to agree, Cryptic needs to bring in the tank/dps/healer scheme used in every other MMO that makes it where you need all 3 classes
Why would we get rid of something unique to do the same boring TRIBBLE that every other mmo does. And fails at. Even WoW has moved drastically away from a hard trinity, because simply put, failing when you are by yourself is terrible when most of the game is played by yourself!
Cruisers are absolutely fine at taking damage. Their 'tank' is not an issue, it is gameplay speed! Making them tankier does not make them more fun to play, it either makes them required, completely breaking the STF search engine and most of the gameplay we currently have, or it just further obsoletes them in terms of Escorts.
Improving cruiser damage would not be making them play like escorts, it would be making cruisers as a viable option to escorts. STO has emphasized relying upon yourself to stay and dealing damage. Shouldn't that be embraced rather than thrown away to cling to 20 year old party dynamics? To take WoW did Warlocks dealing dot damage infringe upons Mages as a nuker? Or did it simply create a different way to deal damage, that appealed to different players?
Some people like being nimble, flying around like a jet fighter and only dealing with frontal arcs. Some people like being a slow, rumbling behemoth who unleashes death via broadside. And some people would like to tear the forces of the universe asunder and crush their foes. All those should be viable and equal. Not okay, I fly a jet fighter, the giant intimidating battleship heals me, and the guy who can alter the forces of reality holds things still so I can hit them.
Why would we get rid of something unique to do the same boring TRIBBLE that every other mmo does. And fails at. Even WoW has moved drastically away from a hard trinity, because simply put, failing when you are by yourself is terrible when most of the game is played by yourself!
Cruisers are absolutely fine at taking damage. Their 'tank' is not an issue, it is gameplay speed! Making them tankier does not make them more fun to play, it either makes them required, completely breaking the STF search engine and most of the gameplay we currently have, or it just further obsoletes them in terms of Escorts.
Improving cruiser damage would not be making them play like escorts, it would be making cruisers as a viable option to escorts. STO has emphasized relying upon yourself to stay and dealing damage. Shouldn't that be embraced rather than thrown away to cling to 20 year old party dynamics? To take WoW did Warlocks dealing dot damage infringe upons Mages as a nuker? Or did it simply create a different way to deal damage, that appealed to different players?
Some people like being nimble, flying around like a jet fighter and only dealing with frontal arcs. Some people like being a slow, rumbling behemoth who unleashes death via broadside. And some people would like to tear the forces of the universe asunder and crush their foes. All those should be viable and equal. Not okay, I fly a jet fighter, the giant intimidating battleship heals me, and the guy who can alter the forces of reality holds things still so I can hit them.
Agreed. Tossing us into a trinity would not only make it where our stf queue is gonna need reworked but would make this just another stale MMO that there are a ton of. Don't need nor want that for this game. Shouldn't be to hard to find alternatives. Sci ships get a bonus that the longer they lock onto a target the more damage they will do to that target. How bout doing something like that for cruisers, the longer a cruiser is locked onto a target the more resistance we build up to it weapons. Honestly add something like that and you've given cruisers something unique ppl will want. Then just need reworking on beam arrays to make them stop draining so much power and bring them more on pace with how cannons work and dps should go up from just that. Though honestly I think they also should boost turn rates on them by 2.
If I need to explain that bad for you then you clearly would not understand it. Look up the definition, extrapolate how that would relate to gameplay, and see why that would be superior to every class essentially being merged into the same basic skill set.
I think you're being unnecessarily arrogant about what you think I'd understand. I want to know what synergy means to you and how you think it applies best to the game. No amount of extrapolation will give me insight into your opinion on the subject.
Deny it until your pink skin turns Andorian blue, you demand escort play while piloting a Cruiser.
I agree with the request of others for a reduction in energy drain for beam weapons and a slight turn rate increase for cruisers by one or two points. No more than that. That would not lead to escort play while piloting a cruiser.
You have misjudged me on the poor side, but then I don't imagine your thought processes could lead to better conclusions.
Improving cruiser damage would not be making them play like escorts, it would be making cruisers as a viable option to escorts. STO has emphasized relying upon yourself to stay and dealing damage. Shouldn't that be embraced rather than thrown away to cling to 20 year old party dynamics? To take WoW did Warlocks dealing dot damage infringe upons Mages as a nuker? Or did it simply create a different way to deal damage, that appealed to different players?
Some people like being nimble, flying around like a jet fighter and only dealing with frontal arcs. Some people like being a slow, rumbling behemoth who unleashes death via broadside. And some people would like to tear the forces of the universe asunder and crush their foes. All those should be viable and equal. Not okay, I fly a jet fighter, the giant intimidating battleship heals me, and the guy who can alter the forces of reality holds things still so I can hit them.
100% agreed.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Although there seems to be some kind of consensus about cruisers needing a little buff to their turn rate and beam arrays a generell buff of some kind like heavy beam arrays or reduced power drain I still think this thread is doing about it the wrong way.
First before anything else the goal should be to find a commen sense about what we expect from the different classes roles. Because if you just buff cruisers/beam arrays its the tacs that are happy because they can now use cruisers much better but there would be even less reasons to play engis let alone sci captains and the main goal here imo should be to habe engis scis and tacs all perform good at some NEEDED role and in a second step to have tacs only really gettong to their full potential wirh escorts, engis with cruisers and scis in science vessels.
So basically we need a clear cut role for each of those to perform great at and have a number of mechanics making that role as much of a necessity as possible without making gameplay without all 3 kinds present impossible.
While im a math guy myself i'm not yet really into all the current mechanics so I leave the details to those more in to it but I still would like to add some of my views.
Only if we have figures those roles outas exactas possible we can try to balance ships in a way that doesnt kill inter-class-balancing making tacs even more interessting and everything else less. Image a tac in a cruiser doing about the same dmg as an escort tac captain while having a cruiser with all its surviveability.. I would call that broken and thats possibly the reason why cryptic hasnt done anything in this matter.
So in the end here are some of my observations:
-while tac captains get APA and GDF as basic only good for them dmg buffs and FOMM and ofc the tacfleet as generell dmg boosters/resistance debuff the only really nice engi skill in that regard is miracle worker which sadly has a high cd so it cant possibly be enough to compensate for APA and GDF
-science abilities and in basically all heals and buffs have a very low range. It may seem high enough but there are so many instances when someone needing a heal is just to far away to help him while still we both attack the same target just that he is maybe on the other side of the cube my being 5km away him also makes 10 already and some skills like extend shields dont even go that far. So maybe im bad at steering my ships but I find it very hard to use the little skills i have to help others as sci or engi just because of range issues.
These at least are the little points I wanted to make. The actual class discussion i leave toyou guys just wanted to say how this discussion should go about doing it. Have fun
Why would we get rid of something unique to do the same boring TRIBBLE that every other mmo does. And fails at. Even WoW has moved drastically away from a hard trinity, because simply put, failing when you are by yourself is terrible when most of the game is played by yourself!
Cruisers are absolutely fine at taking damage. Their 'tank' is not an issue, it is gameplay speed! Making them tankier does not make them more fun to play, it either makes them required, completely breaking the STF search engine and most of the gameplay we currently have, or it just further obsoletes them in terms of Escorts.
Improving cruiser damage would not be making them play like escorts, it would be making cruisers as a viable option to escorts. STO has emphasized relying upon yourself to stay and dealing damage. Shouldn't that be embraced rather than thrown away to cling to 20 year old party dynamics? To take WoW did Warlocks dealing dot damage infringe upons Mages as a nuker? Or did it simply create a different way to deal damage, that appealed to different players?
Some people like being nimble, flying around like a jet fighter and only dealing with frontal arcs. Some people like being a slow, rumbling behemoth who unleashes death via broadside. And some people would like to tear the forces of the universe asunder and crush their foes. All those should be viable and equal. Not okay, I fly a jet fighter, the giant intimidating battleship heals me, and the guy who can alter the forces of reality holds things still so I can hit them.
because the trinity is what makes it so every class is viable. Solo content no, but every other MMO when your in 5 man encounters requires the use of a tank/healer/dps. I suggest only a change to STF gameplay, solo content could remain the same level of difficulty it is now. But making cruisers hit harder than they currently do doesn't solve any problems, it just makes them hit harder while still leaving the Engineering profession out in the cold
Although there seems to be some kind of consensus about cruisers needing a little buff to their turn rate and beam arrays a generell buff of some kind like heavy beam arrays or reduced power drain I still think this thread is doing about it the wrong way.
First before anything else the goal should be to find a commen sense about what we expect from the different classes roles. Because if you just buff cruisers/beam arrays its the tacs that are happy because they can now use cruisers much better but there would be even less reasons to play engis let alone sci captains and the main goal here imo should be to habe engis scis and tacs all perform good at some NEEDED role and in a second step to have tacs only really gettong to their full potential wirh escorts, engis with cruisers and scis in science vessels.
So basically we need a clear cut role for each of those to perform great at and have a number of mechanics making that role as much of a necessity as possible without making gameplay without all 3 kinds present impossible.
While im a math guy myself i'm not yet really into all the current mechanics so I leave the details to those more in to it but I still would like to add some of my views.
Only if we have figures those roles outas exactas possible we can try to balance ships in a way that doesnt kill inter-class-balancing making tacs even more interessting and everything else less. Image a tac in a cruiser doing about the same dmg as an escort tac captain while having a cruiser with all its surviveability.. I would call that broken and thats possibly the reason why cryptic hasnt done anything in this matter.
So in the end here are some of my observations:
-while tac captains get APA and GDF as basic only good for them dmg buffs and FOMM and ofc the tacfleet as generell dmg boosters/resistance debuff the only really nice engi skill in that regard is miracle worker which sadly has a high cd so it cant possibly be enough to compensate for APA and GDF
-science abilities and in basically all heals and buffs have a very low range. It may seem high enough but there are so many instances when someone needing a heal is just to far away to help him while still we both attack the same target just that he is maybe on the other side of the cube my being 5km away him also makes 10 already and some skills like extend shields dont even go that far. So maybe im bad at steering my ships but I find it very hard to use the little skills i have to help others as sci or engi just because of range issues.
These at least are the little points I wanted to make. The actual class discussion i leave toyou guys just wanted to say how this discussion should go about doing it. Have fun
Buffing Cruisers would help all professions that fly them. Yea the more damage they do the more Tacs would get out of them but that's with any vessel they fly. Lets fix the ships then If engineers and Science officers need their abilities looked at they should start a thread but this is about cruisers not professions.
because the trinity is what makes it so every class is viable. Solo content no, but every other MMO when your in 5 man encounters requires the use of a tank/healer/dps. I suggest only a change to STF gameplay, solo content could remain the same level of difficulty it is now. But making cruisers hit harder than they currently do doesn't solve any problems, it just makes them hit harder while still leaving the Engineering profession out in the cold
The trinity is TRIBBLE. Adding it here would take away from this games uniqueness not help it out. Besides that if you make a hard trinity you have to use then all Stf's would have to have their queues redone so it can put together the proper groups. Make all vessels evenly useful in STF's and in gameplay. For right now there is alot more useful about escorts then the other ships due to tac abilities then Engineer and science. Mainly due to cooldowns or atleast that my thought on both. The problems with STF's is they are all about getting things done quickly and that makes DPS the most needed in them. They should rework them so that the timers take into account the formation of the player ships and then it would'nt be a worry when there's not enough DPS and we could actually enjoy running them.
because the trinity is what makes it so every class is viable. Solo content no, but every other MMO when your in 5 man encounters requires the use of a tank/healer/dps. I suggest only a change to STF gameplay, solo content could remain the same level of difficulty it is now. But making cruisers hit harder than they currently do doesn't solve any problems, it just makes them hit harder while still leaving the Engineering profession out in the cold
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that cruiser balance and engineer balance must be one and the same. Part of STO's charm is the ability for creative people to do insane things with any ship, not just the one that "matches" their Captain's class.
As for the trinity...no. Flexibility and a lack of shoehorning into explicit roles is what should be aimed for, not rigidly defined exclusionary roles that must be adhered to for success. If you want that sort of thing, there are plenty of other titles out there that fit the bill.
because the trinity is what makes it so every class is viable. Solo content no, but every other MMO when your in 5 man encounters requires the use of a tank/healer/dps. I suggest only a change to STF gameplay, solo content could remain the same level of difficulty it is now. But making cruisers hit harder than they currently do doesn't solve any problems, it just makes them hit harder while still leaving the Engineering profession out in the cold
OMG your right, cruisers, (being hybrid) are classed as dps and tanks and therefore should get a dps boost if they wanted to go dps spec.
Also... cruisers can, if built well, tank anything.
My engineer in a cruiser can tank an elite tac cube for 5 minutes.
My tactical in an escort can tank tan elite tac cube for... 5 seconds..
5 seconds? I think you're doing something wrong there since my tacs in their escorts/raptors can tank tac cubes for closer to 2 or 3 minutes, whereas my cruisers/battlecruisers can tank tac cubes ad infinitum. But the thing usually goes down in under two minutes anyways, therefore the level of tank that cruisers are easily capable of is just unnecessary. What's the point of having a ship that can tank an armada forever if it's just easier to destroy it in 30 seconds or less?
Cruisers right now have no place in the game. I think that's the big problem here. Anything a cruiser can do, there are things that can do it better, faster, or if not better, well enough to not require a cruiser.
Be that as it may, I think I've said this multiple times, and I am aware this is an exercise in futility, but could the flaming please desist? It doesn't accomplish much, if anything at all.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Comments
Why would we get rid of something unique to do the same boring TRIBBLE that every other mmo does. And fails at. Even WoW has moved drastically away from a hard trinity, because simply put, failing when you are by yourself is terrible when most of the game is played by yourself!
Cruisers are absolutely fine at taking damage. Their 'tank' is not an issue, it is gameplay speed! Making them tankier does not make them more fun to play, it either makes them required, completely breaking the STF search engine and most of the gameplay we currently have, or it just further obsoletes them in terms of Escorts.
Improving cruiser damage would not be making them play like escorts, it would be making cruisers as a viable option to escorts. STO has emphasized relying upon yourself to stay and dealing damage. Shouldn't that be embraced rather than thrown away to cling to 20 year old party dynamics? To take WoW did Warlocks dealing dot damage infringe upons Mages as a nuker? Or did it simply create a different way to deal damage, that appealed to different players?
Some people like being nimble, flying around like a jet fighter and only dealing with frontal arcs. Some people like being a slow, rumbling behemoth who unleashes death via broadside. And some people would like to tear the forces of the universe asunder and crush their foes. All those should be viable and equal. Not okay, I fly a jet fighter, the giant intimidating battleship heals me, and the guy who can alter the forces of reality holds things still so I can hit them.
Agreed. Tossing us into a trinity would not only make it where our stf queue is gonna need reworked but would make this just another stale MMO that there are a ton of. Don't need nor want that for this game. Shouldn't be to hard to find alternatives. Sci ships get a bonus that the longer they lock onto a target the more damage they will do to that target. How bout doing something like that for cruisers, the longer a cruiser is locked onto a target the more resistance we build up to it weapons. Honestly add something like that and you've given cruisers something unique ppl will want. Then just need reworking on beam arrays to make them stop draining so much power and bring them more on pace with how cannons work and dps should go up from just that. Though honestly I think they also should boost turn rates on them by 2.
I think you're being unnecessarily arrogant about what you think I'd understand. I want to know what synergy means to you and how you think it applies best to the game. No amount of extrapolation will give me insight into your opinion on the subject.
I agree with the request of others for a reduction in energy drain for beam weapons and a slight turn rate increase for cruisers by one or two points. No more than that. That would not lead to escort play while piloting a cruiser.
You have misjudged me on the poor side, but then I don't imagine your thought processes could lead to better conclusions.
First before anything else the goal should be to find a commen sense about what we expect from the different classes roles. Because if you just buff cruisers/beam arrays its the tacs that are happy because they can now use cruisers much better but there would be even less reasons to play engis let alone sci captains and the main goal here imo should be to habe engis scis and tacs all perform good at some NEEDED role and in a second step to have tacs only really gettong to their full potential wirh escorts, engis with cruisers and scis in science vessels.
So basically we need a clear cut role for each of those to perform great at and have a number of mechanics making that role as much of a necessity as possible without making gameplay without all 3 kinds present impossible.
While im a math guy myself i'm not yet really into all the current mechanics so I leave the details to those more in to it but I still would like to add some of my views.
Only if we have figures those roles outas exactas possible we can try to balance ships in a way that doesnt kill inter-class-balancing making tacs even more interessting and everything else less. Image a tac in a cruiser doing about the same dmg as an escort tac captain while having a cruiser with all its surviveability.. I would call that broken and thats possibly the reason why cryptic hasnt done anything in this matter.
So in the end here are some of my observations:
-while tac captains get APA and GDF as basic only good for them dmg buffs and FOMM and ofc the tacfleet as generell dmg boosters/resistance debuff the only really nice engi skill in that regard is miracle worker which sadly has a high cd so it cant possibly be enough to compensate for APA and GDF
-science abilities and in basically all heals and buffs have a very low range. It may seem high enough but there are so many instances when someone needing a heal is just to far away to help him while still we both attack the same target just that he is maybe on the other side of the cube my being 5km away him also makes 10 already and some skills like extend shields dont even go that far. So maybe im bad at steering my ships but I find it very hard to use the little skills i have to help others as sci or engi just because of range issues.
These at least are the little points I wanted to make. The actual class discussion i leave toyou guys just wanted to say how this discussion should go about doing it. Have fun
Buffing Cruisers would help all professions that fly them. Yea the more damage they do the more Tacs would get out of them but that's with any vessel they fly. Lets fix the ships then If engineers and Science officers need their abilities looked at they should start a thread but this is about cruisers not professions.
The trinity is TRIBBLE. Adding it here would take away from this games uniqueness not help it out. Besides that if you make a hard trinity you have to use then all Stf's would have to have their queues redone so it can put together the proper groups. Make all vessels evenly useful in STF's and in gameplay. For right now there is alot more useful about escorts then the other ships due to tac abilities then Engineer and science. Mainly due to cooldowns or atleast that my thought on both. The problems with STF's is they are all about getting things done quickly and that makes DPS the most needed in them. They should rework them so that the timers take into account the formation of the player ships and then it would'nt be a worry when there's not enough DPS and we could actually enjoy running them.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that cruiser balance and engineer balance must be one and the same. Part of STO's charm is the ability for creative people to do insane things with any ship, not just the one that "matches" their Captain's class.
As for the trinity...no. Flexibility and a lack of shoehorning into explicit roles is what should be aimed for, not rigidly defined exclusionary roles that must be adhered to for success. If you want that sort of thing, there are plenty of other titles out there that fit the bill.
OMG your right, cruisers, (being hybrid) are classed as dps and tanks and therefore should get a dps boost if they wanted to go dps spec.
Your such a genious.
This is from world of war craft hybrid system.
5 seconds? I think you're doing something wrong there since my tacs in their escorts/raptors can tank tac cubes for closer to 2 or 3 minutes, whereas my cruisers/battlecruisers can tank tac cubes ad infinitum. But the thing usually goes down in under two minutes anyways, therefore the level of tank that cruisers are easily capable of is just unnecessary. What's the point of having a ship that can tank an armada forever if it's just easier to destroy it in 30 seconds or less?
Cruisers right now have no place in the game. I think that's the big problem here. Anything a cruiser can do, there are things that can do it better, faster, or if not better, well enough to not require a cruiser.
Be that as it may, I think I've said this multiple times, and I am aware this is an exercise in futility, but could the flaming please desist? It doesn't accomplish much, if anything at all.