lol you totally took it the wrong way its the oppesit. I did a quick edit it to make more sense
Buff ST to grant jam sensor against all pets, so anyone running ST pet can?t see them. Like a AMS against pets. So danubes cant see you
that would certainly be a better use of sci team, though just removing the tractor beams from the danubes would be easier; there's no way in hell that even 4 ships of that size should be able to completely halt even escort sized ships
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Well then let me just add my 2ec in here as well. Power drain builds are in principal one of the last things that sci/sci can attempt without being outperformed by tacs.
I would have to agree with this. It's interesting that this conversation is happening at this point in time because power drains are laughable compared to how they used to perform. I personally wish Power drains in general worked more similar to what they used to during S4. I can agree with the OP that if there is one issue with power drains it should be directed at Siphon Drones alone. I disagree with some of his other points, however.
Rather, place a cap on power drain in general. A fundamental question needs to be asked: Should a single player be able to bring one ship down to 0 power in all 4 subsystems?
I do not agree that there should be a cap on how much stacked drains can drain from a targets power levels. If a person finds they are in a situation where they are letting a player take advantage of them in this way then they are not playing their toon very well imho. I do feel like Siphon Drones could be about half as effective as they are now and still be useful given how quickly they can be launched and that they can be used nearly continuous. Other drains have gaps between when they can be re-used and require timing to be effective. Siphon Drones suffer less from that kind of inhibitor because they don't have a long cooldown when used with DOffs and high Aux. That's part of the issue with them.
This is especially a problem since the ability to do this belongs to one faction only (KDF). What if multiple power drain ships and esp. carriers are running on that team? The recent fix to siphon drones and leach console was a move in the right direction, but I fear that it was trimming the weeds more than an actually dealing with the infestation.
It can also be argued that multiple power drain setups within a team is no less deadly than many other setups. It's just one variation of a lot of different combinations and perhaps, not even the deadliest.
As someone who has used Power drain builds in both factions and also had them used on him I can agree with some conclusions you've made and disagree with others.
Even still, it remains a question for me whether a single carrier pet should be able to drain subsystems from 125-17 (see Test 1).
This does indeed outline another problem with Drones. They shouldn't just be able to flatline all systems to the same amount. One pet taking over 100 power from one system and leaving everything at 20 available power is ridiculous. If anything their drain should just take a percentage of the total power to the system instead of draining in pulses till they all reach a hard cap and fluctuating from there. The mechanic that Siphon Drones use in particular is really, really bad.
this kind of whining is exactly why i thought making a fuzz about kdf drain while leaving the obvious fleet shields, leadership stacking and other (mostly fed, btw) imbalances unaddressed was a bad move.
Borticus, could we please get some solid numbers on power drain. In previous posts you have made on the issue (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=404791), you mention percentage caps but never give any numbers. It would be nice for us to know those.
A few days ago I got together with Renimalt on my drain based Kar'fi build and conducted extensive tests on pet drain. Renim has 99 base Power Insulators and would also run the Borg deflector and four power insulator consoles. I forget the exact number his PI went up to but you could always ask in OPVP or he could chime in here.
For my part I am a Tactical captain specced fully into flow caps and run a faux subnuc ability based Kar'fi carrier.
When testing the siphons we discovered since they had been changed they no longer run a conventional drain. This obviously is to prevent the situation we were having where they would catch up to a target, apply drain slowing them, then when the others caught up took it all right down to 0 and left the target dead in space. However in creating the "oscillating" effect where only a certain amount of drones can be on a target at a time, they also broke the targets power systems.
I'll explain:
Renimalt is an Engineer and as such has access to the abilities you'd think would prove useful to resisting drain (Nadeon inversion, EPS etc.) however we discovered those abilities, as well as the value of power insulators, to be completely irrelevant to the drones. To achieve the effect where they switch on and off in their drain, the drones place a hard cap on the target's power systems. Renimalt and I mapped those out to be:
With four wings the average drain left power systems around the 20 mark with the ocillation effect. However in using EPS to overcome it, he only hit 40. This is not a resistable effect and insulators/abilities proves completely useless against it.
This is based off only one test subject though, I still want to conduct further tests to hash out if those cap values are consistent or not.
Is it possible to develop a Federation drain build which can keep a single enemy ship stuck in the 15-40 range with occasional complete power outages in some systems?
Or at least keep their power stuck enough that you can cycle through other sci abilities like tractor beam and viral matrices to end up in a fight where your opponent spends more time incapacitated or crawling along then moving about freely?
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that would certainly be a better use of sci team, though just removing the tractor beams from the danubes would be easier; there's no way in hell that even 4 ships of that size should be able to completely halt even escort sized ships
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
just use he if the tykens actually hurts (which it never does) energy siphon again use he
I would have to agree with this. It's interesting that this conversation is happening at this point in time because power drains are laughable compared to how they used to perform. I personally wish Power drains in general worked more similar to what they used to during S4. I can agree with the OP that if there is one issue with power drains it should be directed at Siphon Drones alone. I disagree with some of his other points, however.
I do not agree that there should be a cap on how much stacked drains can drain from a targets power levels. If a person finds they are in a situation where they are letting a player take advantage of them in this way then they are not playing their toon very well imho. I do feel like Siphon Drones could be about half as effective as they are now and still be useful given how quickly they can be launched and that they can be used nearly continuous. Other drains have gaps between when they can be re-used and require timing to be effective. Siphon Drones suffer less from that kind of inhibitor because they don't have a long cooldown when used with DOffs and high Aux. That's part of the issue with them.
It can also be argued that multiple power drain setups within a team is no less deadly than many other setups. It's just one variation of a lot of different combinations and perhaps, not even the deadliest.
As someone who has used Power drain builds in both factions and also had them used on him I can agree with some conclusions you've made and disagree with others.
This does indeed outline another problem with Drones. They shouldn't just be able to flatline all systems to the same amount. One pet taking over 100 power from one system and leaving everything at 20 available power is ridiculous. If anything their drain should just take a percentage of the total power to the system instead of draining in pulses till they all reach a hard cap and fluctuating from there. The mechanic that Siphon Drones use in particular is really, really bad.
this kind of whining is exactly why i thought making a fuzz about kdf drain while leaving the obvious fleet shields, leadership stacking and other (mostly fed, btw) imbalances unaddressed was a bad move.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Borticus, could we please get some solid numbers on power drain. In previous posts you have made on the issue (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=404791), you mention percentage caps but never give any numbers. It would be nice for us to know those.
Some comments from you on our tests and this thread would also be appreciated. You seemed interested in the original post we made: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=558831&page=2
Thanks!
For my part I am a Tactical captain specced fully into flow caps and run a faux subnuc ability based Kar'fi carrier.
When testing the siphons we discovered since they had been changed they no longer run a conventional drain. This obviously is to prevent the situation we were having where they would catch up to a target, apply drain slowing them, then when the others caught up took it all right down to 0 and left the target dead in space. However in creating the "oscillating" effect where only a certain amount of drones can be on a target at a time, they also broke the targets power systems.
I'll explain:
Renimalt is an Engineer and as such has access to the abilities you'd think would prove useful to resisting drain (Nadeon inversion, EPS etc.) however we discovered those abilities, as well as the value of power insulators, to be completely irrelevant to the drones. To achieve the effect where they switch on and off in their drain, the drones place a hard cap on the target's power systems. Renimalt and I mapped those out to be:
56-42 - 1 wing draining
50-23 - 2 wings draining
42-20 - 3 wings draining
40-15 - 4 wings draining
With four wings the average drain left power systems around the 20 mark with the ocillation effect. However in using EPS to overcome it, he only hit 40. This is not a resistable effect and insulators/abilities proves completely useless against it.
This is based off only one test subject though, I still want to conduct further tests to hash out if those cap values are consistent or not.
Or at least keep their power stuck enough that you can cycle through other sci abilities like tractor beam and viral matrices to end up in a fight where your opponent spends more time incapacitated or crawling along then moving about freely?