Well, I used to think it was a Cryptic thing but I see it in Foundry missions too...
One thing that I like about the biggest competitor in the western market (the game that shall not be named with the initials W.O.W.)...
They use emotionally manipulative stories. I felt they got a bit too jokey with Cataclysm (and I like Jokey somewhat; it helps get me into the fantasy genre, which I'm not a devotee of on its own). But the classic missions through WotLK rarely involve orders or political stakes. You are so far from the periphery of your faction in WoW that, last I checked, nobody had a clear answer as to whether player characters in that game are soldiers or represent the official political interests of their factions. There are missions that you may want to skip or where you choose a path.
But above all, thir stories (while not exactly great literature for the most part) have an emotionally manipulative hook. Separated lovers. Sick child. Failing farmers. Lost family member. Running across an innocent in peril or a good person who died unjustly. All of the classic PvP scenarios actually do have a backstory with enough bad apples and good points on both sides that people actually debate who is right.
The presentation is not sophisticated and the writing in WoW is not often Shakespeare but the situations are morally complex and the stakes are emotionally manipulative.
And STO doesn't have much of that even if Star Trek traditionally did.
Take the Scarlet Crusade in that other game. You can have hours of debate over whether their position is justified or uneviable or a perfect example of how evil takes route. It's not settled even though most of the Scarlet story has been resolved. There are probably fifteen characters who are personally connected to that in the game.
Part of the reason Blizz keeps bringing them back (and did so again in this latest expansion) despite attempts to wrap up that story is because players indicate that killing Scarlets makes them feel things. Justified. Sad. Powerful. Righteous.
I don't see a lot of that in STO. The closest is Obisek and he's pretty unambiguously a good guy at this point.
Outside of that one oddball mission on the farm, killing True Way or Tal Shiar never triggered the same emotions in spite of being the closest thing to STO Scarlet Crusaders. They're just bad dudes.
Part of the problem with Fleet Actions is that they reinforce the interchangability of of the enemies. Tactics may change slightly (not much) but it ultimately doesn't send me to a different place emotionally if I'm fighting a colony defense against True Way, Dominion, Romulans, or Breen. They're just pixels to kill.
Whereas it kinda does matter in WoW if I'm fighting Scourge, Scarlets, Defias, Bloodsail, Eredar, Burning Legion, etc. The mechanics there are largely even more interchangable but there's a different set of emotions, themes, and motifs in play. I don't think a WoW player needs to be a total lorehead to sense that as I knew plenty of people who were mainly mechanical players but they at least had one boss, enemy group, quest line, or dungeon that triggered some emotional connection. Effectively, these are my enemies above the others and these are the ones I wish I didn't fight and these are the ones I want to join my faction.
And I find that to be oddly more Trek-y than what we have here. I think they've done a better job with attaching value to grinding. If I play WoW and have no other goals, there are certain groups I WANT to fight more and I know everybody has a favorite to blow off steam against and a favorite they wish they could play.
To the extent that's true in STO, it's based on the shows and not anything STO does.
I also need to get this out there, I know its probably not feasible with the current engine, but when someone says to me what do you want from a Star Trek MMO... this is what i dream:
I arrive at the Starbase to find a list of missions. These missions are essentially quests as you would find in say DDO or the such like. These are story missions. You and other players group up to carry out the mission. It could be diplomacy, it could be scientific investigation or a neutral zone patrol, or even exploration. We start the mission by traveling to our destination.
We may encounter issues to resolve on the way or conflicts to overcome and the when we get to the main mission it involves team work and specific skill traits from the the different classes to solve puzzles and mysteries, it could be repair work or helping out a criminal investigation as sleuths for a Federation member planet, it could creating and transporting vaccines through a dangerous zone to a colony in dire need (imagine this last one where you have to protect the player whose carrying the medical supplies from attack).
The quests and stories are endless and this for me would be far closer to an actual Star Trek experience, puzzles, mysteries, combat, morality plays, stories, adventure, exploration and above all fun!
And I find that to be oddly more Trek-y than what we have here. I think they've done a better job with attaching value to grinding. If I play WoW and have no other goals, there are certain groups I WANT to fight more and I know everybody has a favorite to blow off steam against and a favorite they wish they could play.
To the extent that's true in STO, it's based on the shows and not anything STO does.
It's an interesting point - beyond the Borg (who exist merely as a 'force of nature'), the villains of STO have little to differentiate them.
In Tau Dewa I favour fighting the Hirogen in the space patrols, but that's simply because they're the least annoying enemies - and that in itself speaks volumes.
That way, a large fleet cannot drop down to minimal size, blow through the scaled down progression costs and then invite everyone back. You also add a system that puts a daily cap of 5 new characters added to the fleet. so that a fleet cannot start small, take advantage of scaled down costs and then suddenly baloon up to a massive fleet.
Strangely the solution to that is already in the system: They may have a T5 starbase, but good luck buying anything (except for the few characters who turned everything in).
Let the small fleet holdings service large fleets. This way they serve a valid purpose.
Because small fleets should all leap at the chance to be every large fleet's b****? Come on. This argument really sounds like one for the preservation of large fleet ***** measuring -- which I admit is a large part of MMO culture, but it's not something that developers should design for. It's over complicated (and expensive to develop) than simply adding in variables and some calculations based on past and present members (by account, not characters).
How MMO companies reach for the stars: "And as far as Season 7 being "grindy" - welcome to the MMORPG genre."
Well, I used to think it was a Cryptic thing but I see it in Foundry missions too...
One thing that I like about the biggest competitor in the western market (the game that shall not be named with the initials W.O.W.)...
They use emotionally manipulative stories. I felt they got a bit too jokey with Cataclysm (and I like Jokey somewhat; it helps get me into the fantasy genre, which I'm not a devotee of on its own). But the classic missions through WotLK rarely involve orders or political stakes. You are so far from the periphery of your faction in WoW that, last I checked, nobody had a clear answer as to whether player characters in that game are soldiers or represent the official political interests of their factions. There are missions that you may want to skip or where you choose a path.
But above all, thir stories (while not exactly great literature for the most part) have an emotionally manipulative hook. Separated lovers. Sick child. Failing farmers. Lost family member. Running across an innocent in peril or a good person who died unjustly. All of the classic PvP scenarios actually do have a backstory with enough bad apples and good points on both sides that people actually debate who is right.
The presentation is not sophisticated and the writing in WoW is not often Shakespeare but the situations are morally complex and the stakes are emotionally manipulative.
And STO doesn't have much of that even if Star Trek traditionally did.
Take the Scarlet Crusade in that other game. You can have hours of debate over whether their position is justified or uneviable or a perfect example of how evil takes route. It's not settled even though most of the Scarlet story has been resolved. There are probably fifteen characters who are personally connected to that in the game.
Part of the reason Blizz keeps bringing them back (and did so again in this latest expansion) despite attempts to wrap up that story is because players indicate that killing Scarlets makes them feel things. Justified. Sad. Powerful. Righteous.
I don't see a lot of that in STO. The closest is Obisek and he's pretty unambiguously a good guy at this point.
Outside of that one oddball mission on the farm, killing True Way or Tal Shiar never triggered the same emotions in spite of being the closest thing to STO Scarlet Crusaders. They're just bad dudes.
Part of the problem with Fleet Actions is that they reinforce the interchangability of of the enemies. Tactics may change slightly (not much) but it ultimately doesn't send me to a different place emotionally if I'm fighting a colony defense against True Way, Dominion, Romulans, or Breen. They're just pixels to kill.
Whereas it kinda does matter in WoW if I'm fighting Scourge, Scarlets, Defias, Bloodsail, Eredar, Burning Legion, etc. The mechanics there are largely even more interchangable but there's a different set of emotions, themes, and motifs in play. I don't think a WoW player needs to be a total lorehead to sense that as I knew plenty of people who were mainly mechanical players but they at least had one boss, enemy group, quest line, or dungeon that triggered some emotional connection. Effectively, these are my enemies above the others and these are the ones I wish I didn't fight and these are the ones I want to join my faction.
And I find that to be oddly more Trek-y than what we have here. I think they've done a better job with attaching value to grinding. If I play WoW and have no other goals, there are certain groups I WANT to fight more and I know everybody has a favorite to blow off steam against and a favorite they wish they could play.
To the extent that's true in STO, it's based on the shows and not anything STO does.
What more can be said? I agree 100% with this.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Doesn't matter where you get your keys, they all come from the same place originally. Every key in the game is money paid to PWE. That you are giving someone EC so that they will give PWE $$$ doesn't affect how much money PWE is getting for the key.
The people working for Cryptic are probably pretty happy that Atari bought Cryptic, and then that Atari sold Cryptic to PWE.
To them, it was almost certainly a good, or the 'right', decision.[/QUOTE]
you have proof that real money was used. It could be that cryptic put it in there for they're nearly always the same price 1.3-1.4 mil.
It's an interesting point - beyond the Borg (who exist merely as a 'force of nature'), the villains of STO have little to differentiate them.
In Tau Dewa I favour fighting the Hirogen in the space patrols, but that's simply because they're the least annoying enemies - and that in itself speaks volumes.
Very true. What we need is a story with an emotional hook that evolves into fighting an enemy you're not sure you should be fighting.
Maybe even a hook like that in the original Mobile Suit Gundam in that you are not sure who the bad guy is supposed to be, or whether or not you are on the right side of the war.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I didn't want to get into this because I'm tired of typing and cranky too but seeing as Fleets have come up lets talk about what the real issue is.
The design stinks
Some fleets would be perfectly happy with a small starbase/fleet but say for example you build a Tier 1 base with Sci/Mil/Eng all at T1 - what do you have?
A whole lot of nothing - T1 ships, common Doffs unlocked, no Advanced weapons, missing amenities - basically a mostly non-functional starbase.
If low-Tier Fleets could have a full set of amenities (Bank/Exchange/Mail/Tailor and yes, Crafting) plus some nifty decor and some decent space/ground equipment unlocks then they wouldn't feel like they have to advance the base - and that's the key.
They should want to - in their own time, when they feel like it.
Tying all the goodies (ships/weapons etc.) into starbase Tiers means you're instantly making higher-Tier fleets more desirable for potential members and devaluing lower-Tier fleets.
Low-Tier starbases needed a base-level set of equipment projects that could fully kit out an end-game player with Fleet gear without having to be part of a T4 or 5 Fleet.
A good example is Advanced Weapons - T1 bases should have had Advanced Phasers/Disruptors available with more exotic weaponry being unlocked at higher Tiers.
The rewards should be there for T5 starbases - a whole plethora of interesting gear that's only available by fully levelling up the base - but that shouldn't deprive lower-Tier starbases of basic gear of a similar utility.
But Cryptic plainly doesn't want or support small Fleets - and the system, as-is, is shockingly punatative to those who try.
@brandon: I know, a bit off-topic, but could you please tell someone responsible to have a look at this thread? For a whole year now it didn't see any response from a dev anymore, giving people the impression that the issue has been either forgotten or is getting ignored.
For a whole year now it didn't see any response from a dev anymore, giving people the impression that the issue has been either forgotten or is getting ignored.
You noticed that too eh?
And you know what? You could change the appearance of your Marauding Boff by entering a code in the Tailor that allowed you to freely chose off-duty clothing options that you'd purchased - you could also alter the look of your Boff - hairstyle etc. this way.
An apology is due, and while I've admitted fault in previous posts about this , I'll do so again in this one.
The release that was pushed to Holodeck last week failed in several critical ways. There was a failure on the part of a designer to test their work before it was checked into the game.
...Snip...
And now... back to work.
First, I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to apologise for the oversight on your part about removing something without an adequate replacement being introduced at the same time.
I realise that a lot of the time, these threads can build up a lot of resentment towards the team and I'd like to apologise myself for the posts of mine which weren't exactly savoury (though hardly the worst). I'd say a large part of the reason behind that though, is we don't like to feel like we're not important enough to be heard. When threads drag on for days without any constructive response from the team, it's easy to feel we're being ignored.
This is perpetuated when you put content on Tribble, for us to test, then completely ignore our feedback and continue to push it to Holodeck unchanged. It can make us wonder why we bother using Tribble and giving feedback about the new content.
...snip...
It just takes time. And right now, you may not see it, but the team is working extra hard. It is one thing to say that Cryptic pays our salary. But it doesn't really pay for all the late nights and weekends all the salaried employees are working right now. Why are we doing it? Because we are excited. Excited about what we are building. Excited about what we might be able to achieve this year.
It might not seem like much to you, but to us it is a big TRIBBLE deal.
I think the fact that so many people have replied to this thread, shows that it is a "big TRIBBLE deal" to us too. As somebody who has been playing this game since Beta, it is very important to me. I've devoted over three years of my gaming life to STO, created and developed nine characters, worked them all through the new rep systems, given them all a back story, tried many a new vessel in combat and exploration, spent what probably adds up to several thousand pounds on lifetime sub, ships, costumes, extra character slots and (annoyingly) lock boxes.
When fleet bases were added to the game, I was so happy. My fleet mates and I have all known each other for years and although we're a small fleet, the thought of being able to carve out a small part of the STO world where we could call 'home' put a bounce in my step. Sadly, we quickly realised that we'd never be able to attain our dream because there simply aren't enough of us to do so. This quickly turned the game sour.
I can appreciate the need for 'balance' and to make sure that fleets with 500 members don't get things handed to them on a golden plate on day one. But it does have the sad effect of relegating those of us who are long standing players, who simply don't want to break up our family and become part of a 500 mass where nobody really knows anybody, to never being able to attain a tier five base and reap the rewards that come with it.
I simply hope, that although you've introduced a higher rate of Fleet Marks on the existing content, that you don't walk away from this thread thinking that everything is fine and dandy now. There are still a lot of issues which this thread has brought up, which are important to a lot of us, you may even call some of them a "big TRIBBLE deal".
Disclaimer: This is not me hating on you or the team and I am truly thankful for the feedback you've posted here now and for the changes being introduced to the game with today's patch.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
I simply hope, that although you've introduced a higher rate of Fleet Marks on the existing content, that you don't walk away from this thread thinking that everything is fine and dandy now. There are still a lot of issues which this thread has brought up, which are important to a lot of us, you may even call some of them a "big TRIBBLE deal".
Disclaimer: This is not me hating on you or the team and I am truly thankful for the feedback you've posted here now and for the changes being introduced to the game with today's patch.
The problem is the same thing happened with Season 7 this is a systemic failure that needs to be addressed it's a long term issue that hasn't been resolved by anything Cryptic have done as of yet. This goes way beyond shifting beans into different pots.
Please once again I call for people who are interested in helping improve this game to PM me so we can move forward together I want start a community based dialogue here but I can't do it alone.
And as far as Season 7 being "grindy" - welcome to the MMORPG genre..
WOW! I have to say, of all your statements, and you have said some whoppers, this one impresses me the most. As my mother would say, ?So if all the other Game Developers decided to jump off a bridge, you would too?? I mean way too go with the aiming low. Forget innovation. Forget trying to be better than the competition. It really makes you lose faith, when the Executive Producer says his products is just like all the others out there. And you wonder why you have such a low meta-critic score? I really would have to agree with all the critics who have said that STO is just a basic MMO with a thin Star Trek veneer on it.
How about striving for innovation in year four? How about not looking at other games and saying ?it worked for them, let just use that idea.?? How about digging deep into what Star Trek is all about and bringing that out in unique game play. You have done it in the past: Doffs, Foundry, and Featured Episodes. Those are all unique mechanics. Grind is not.
Beers,
Jengoz =\/=
"Star Trek Online is powered by the most abundant resource in the galaxy . . . Gullibility"
WOW! I have to say, of all your statements, and you have said some whoppers, this one impresses me the most.
Very well said - this isn't Hello Kitty Online or another cookie-cutter Asian grinder MMO, it's Star Trek FFS - are you really that uninspired by the IP that you can't do any better?
Originally Posted by sirsitsalot
Let the small fleet holdings service large fleets. This way they serve a valid purpose.
WHAT??!! While I realise this is taken somewhat out of the context of the larger post, it's sentiment is the same all the way through - the very notion is appalling! First, it isn't like ANY Starbase, the way they are set up right now, at least, serves a "valid purpose" other than to say "I have it and you don't." But, to even hint that smaller fleets equate to lesser or, in the spirit of this quote, should be "subservient" to larger fleets...:mad: My full response would get me banned from the Forums.
This is one of the problems being brought up in this thread, and the short summary is: small fleets are JUST as valid as larger fleets and deserve as much support and recognition as any other. I'll also say this: in my opinion, players disappear in large fleets, so they become just another lemming moving toward the cliff edge. If that's how you want to play, fine. But don't tell me that's how it SHOULD be.
The notion of "fleet" means team; team means cooperation, and only cooperation equals group success. In my experience, the only way that real cooperation happens is when you KNOW the faces you bump into every day, and they have your back because you have a relationship of respect and comradeship and you share common goals! I lead my fleet of 18, but I don't dictate to them - I discuss things with them. My experience with mega-fleets was being told "if you don't like it, I've got 300 other players to take your place."
Nothing against the larger or even the "mega" fleets, but don't try and sell the notion that one type of fleet, small or large, is superior or inferior to the other: they are just different strategies that fit different styles of play.
**[EDIT]** I re-read and re-read your post, sirsitsalot, and I get that you are not against small fleets exactly. But, the choice to remain small does not mean small fleets should get less: the food dish remains the same size whether you're a Great Dane or a Chihuahua, even if it takes longer for the Chihuahua to consume it. Small fleets should be able to obtain exactly the same things as larger fleets in their own time, not have the bar lowered so they can reach it more easily. The choice to play a certain way should not equate to the consequence of a different or, especially, lesser prize.
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge (...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
BTW, my suggestion going forward would be more content like the Salt Vampire FA.
It's not perfect and feels long... and really, I personally would rather get FM than RM from it. (Heck. Make the victims there random.)
But the enemies have a distinct feel and MO. If every FA had enemies that felt that distinct (but maybe not quite that long), I 'd be a lot more into grinding.
I'd suggest that once current content planned is out of the box, try to focus on one off races from the shows and give the big empires a rest. If you need to rely on the big empires to get attention every content release, it says to me that there's something lacking about the content and that you're leaning too hard on the shows to build up interest that your content itself isn't doing.
And maybe some attention should be paid to the difference between farming and grinding. People farm because they want to. People grind because they feel forced to to do something else. It's a subtle difference but a real one I think.
More intrinsic reward, less use of carrots. You still NEED a carrot but if that's everyone's primary motivation, well... That's like getting married for the ring.
Ive seen this before in discussions when it came to stfs and loot drops; that alot of ppl felt even if it wasn't that great of a reward it was a small instant reward, a way for ppl to feel that they at least accomplished something. With that perspective in mind, I had a thought.
Could Cryptic add in a smaller version of starbase missions? Ones that would be half the resources,half the cooldown,but also half the reward? In essence, taking a flight of 25 stairs to get to the first floor, and making another flight of stairs that would be 50, but get you to the same floor? In all honesty, there would be no actual increase in progression that you would get from the larger steps, but in terms of appearance, it would offer the smaller fleets the ability to see the progression at a smaller scale. Upgrade missions would be exempt from this,unless you wanted to make them a 2 parter, with the reward of the upgrade coming at the end of part 2.
Sometimes offering a smaller carrot closer to the nose is better than offering a huge carrot but not being able to smell it cuz its so far away. Just a thought. Don't even know if its feasible or wanted,but It's early for me and just felt like throwing in something constructive.
And as far as Season 7 being "grindy" - welcome to the MMORPG genre.
This makes me regret that I almost stopped playing real (= no MMORPG) games. I thought that "being that grindy" happened by mistake. Now I know that it is unlikely to change. I miss the time, when games were just meant to entertain (and not to simulate a full-time job). *sad*
BTW, my suggestion going forward would be more content like the Salt Vampire FA.
(Heck. Make the victims there random.)
But the enemies have a distinct feel and MO.
I agree. Though I haven't played this one recently (time factor), I really like the concept of this map & mode. It really adds more complexity to the "shoot stuff" standard in game.
Ok, so I've read as many posts in this thread as I can, and here's my 10 cents' worth:
1) The fleet size issue is really simple to fix and keep everyone happy. Scale the requirements for fleet projects to the size of the fleet. Since this would be exploitable so easily, all you have to do to fix it, is make it so that all Fleet credit is lost on changing fleets. Exploit removed, small fleets get to be as happy as the big ones. Everyone gets starbase enjoyment.
2) Fleet marks... Really, all this ranting because they removed them from IOR daily ? Who cares. To be honest I get about 600 fleet marks a week without doing any missions or fleet events just from the Duty Officer trade in mission. And that's per toon. Not really difficult. As for the fleet events themselves, well it's true, if you go with PUGs you usually get done over since there's a lot of incompetent people dragging your rewards down. So either (a) go with fleet mates and do well, or (b) if you can't find any decent players to go with, find a fleet that is interested and will do these events with you because they want to too !
(Shameless plug - if you want a good fleet with people who are into the game and do like teaming up for fleet events, and STFs, join The Phoenix Vanguard !)
Originally Posted by dastahl
"And as far as Season 7 being "grindy" - welcome to the MMORPG genre."
Dan that is exaclty what is wrong!
Star Trek gamers are not like the "average" MMORPG player in other games!
We are not grinders, we are fans of Star Trek!
You have within your grasp a way to generate more profit than you could ever image and we would gladly support you if you just think about the following;
Playable Factions
And here is how it would generate for years the long term profit you want.
1) Ships, Weapons, Consoles, Bridge Officers, Duty Officers, Costumes [ship and character], etc. for the faction.
a) Available as a player levels up in that faction.
b) Special Z-Store versions
c) Ultra rare versions from your favorite money maker aka Lockboxes
d) New fun missions with drops that are worth the time spend in them as a reward.
e) STF based missions with something valuable that is only available from completing it.
f) New Fleet and Embassy bases for that faction (just don't make them into a grind)
And if you look at your "metrics" you will see this approach would work and give you a path that is unending for years to come. It opens the whole universe to your imagination!
So what factions am I talking about?
well let's start with the obvious one...
Romulan and continuing with these (not all at once but spread out over the launches);
Borg
Undine
Dominion
Cardassian
Hirogen
Orion
Ferengi (these are perfect to make into the pirates/traders of the universe)
Tholian
Reman
Well you get the picture... You never run out of something new to add for your next seson!
This also generates profit from the players buying more character slots and all the things that go with a playable faction.
You see, if you only look at short term "metrics" to create your "vision", then you miss out on what the Star Trek universe and it's fans really are... unlimited imagination with unlimited possibilites!
To quote something from your own web site...
"Players will have the opportunity to visit iconic locations from the popular Star Trek fiction, reach out to unexplored star systems and make contact with new alien species. With Episode Missions, every moment spent playing Star Trek Online will feel like a new Star Trek episode in which you are the star."
and last, but I think the most important "vision" for STO...(by the way from your web site again)
"Join us in Star Trek Online, and boldly go where no one has gone before!"
So as you can see, Star Trek is not like other MMORPG games at all and neither are we!
*GASP* Cryptic released a product/patch with bugs and obviously wasn't fully tested? Say it ain't so!!!
Basically people paid $50 for ships against which a tier 1 ship (unintentionably) probably has better survivability.
We must be talking to ourselves in this thread.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
First, "many people aren't happy" is a matter of perspective. There are certainly people that aren't happy, but there are also many people that are happy. You simply can't make an MMO that pleases every single person all the time. What you can do, is work to grow the game and make tough decisions about what is good for the game right now.
...and, you calling "Star Trek: Online" a success is a matter of perspective.
And as far as Season 7 being "grindy" - welcome to the MMORPG genre. While it isn't the perfect solution, it is where we are at now. We want to make it better, but it takes time. We will increase the level cap. We will add more reps. We will add more feature episodes. We will add more adventure zones. We will add more ships. We will add more rewards. We will add more of everything that STO needs.
Did you just say, "We want to be like everyone else; thus, we do not care about innovating the MMO experience"?
Within one year of your competitor's game release, they are raising their level cap from 50 to 60. "Star Trek: Online" has been sitting at level 50 for three years.
You need to be replaced for having low expectations and a lack of innovative thinking.
Comments
My feelings exactly....
#2311#2700#2316#2500
It's an interesting point - beyond the Borg (who exist merely as a 'force of nature'), the villains of STO have little to differentiate them.
In Tau Dewa I favour fighting the Hirogen in the space patrols, but that's simply because they're the least annoying enemies - and that in itself speaks volumes.
Strangely the solution to that is already in the system: They may have a T5 starbase, but good luck buying anything (except for the few characters who turned everything in).
Because small fleets should all leap at the chance to be every large fleet's b****? Come on. This argument really sounds like one for the preservation of large fleet ***** measuring -- which I admit is a large part of MMO culture, but it's not something that developers should design for. It's over complicated (and expensive to develop) than simply adding in variables and some calculations based on past and present members (by account, not characters).
What more can be said? I agree 100% with this.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Doesn't matter where you get your keys, they all come from the same place originally. Every key in the game is money paid to PWE. That you are giving someone EC so that they will give PWE $$$ doesn't affect how much money PWE is getting for the key.
The people working for Cryptic are probably pretty happy that Atari bought Cryptic, and then that Atari sold Cryptic to PWE.
To them, it was almost certainly a good, or the 'right', decision.[/QUOTE]
you have proof that real money was used. It could be that cryptic put it in there for they're nearly always the same price 1.3-1.4 mil.
Very true. What we need is a story with an emotional hook that evolves into fighting an enemy you're not sure you should be fighting.
Maybe even a hook like that in the original Mobile Suit Gundam in that you are not sure who the bad guy is supposed to be, or whether or not you are on the right side of the war.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I didn't want to get into this because I'm tired of typing and cranky too but seeing as Fleets have come up lets talk about what the real issue is.
The design stinks
Some fleets would be perfectly happy with a small starbase/fleet but say for example you build a Tier 1 base with Sci/Mil/Eng all at T1 - what do you have?
A whole lot of nothing - T1 ships, common Doffs unlocked, no Advanced weapons, missing amenities - basically a mostly non-functional starbase.
If low-Tier Fleets could have a full set of amenities (Bank/Exchange/Mail/Tailor and yes, Crafting) plus some nifty decor and some decent space/ground equipment unlocks then they wouldn't feel like they have to advance the base - and that's the key.
They should want to - in their own time, when they feel like it.
Tying all the goodies (ships/weapons etc.) into starbase Tiers means you're instantly making higher-Tier fleets more desirable for potential members and devaluing lower-Tier fleets.
Low-Tier starbases needed a base-level set of equipment projects that could fully kit out an end-game player with Fleet gear without having to be part of a T4 or 5 Fleet.
A good example is Advanced Weapons - T1 bases should have had Advanced Phasers/Disruptors available with more exotic weaponry being unlocked at higher Tiers.
The rewards should be there for T5 starbases - a whole plethora of interesting gear that's only available by fully levelling up the base - but that shouldn't deprive lower-Tier starbases of basic gear of a similar utility.
But Cryptic plainly doesn't want or support small Fleets - and the system, as-is, is shockingly punatative to those who try.
You noticed that too eh?
And you know what? You could change the appearance of your Marauding Boff by entering a code in the Tailor that allowed you to freely chose off-duty clothing options that you'd purchased - you could also alter the look of your Boff - hairstyle etc. this way.
But they've taken the time to remove that code.
But still left the Marauding Boffs bugged.
Kinda makes you think eh?
Working as intended I'm sure.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
First, I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to apologise for the oversight on your part about removing something without an adequate replacement being introduced at the same time.
I realise that a lot of the time, these threads can build up a lot of resentment towards the team and I'd like to apologise myself for the posts of mine which weren't exactly savoury (though hardly the worst). I'd say a large part of the reason behind that though, is we don't like to feel like we're not important enough to be heard. When threads drag on for days without any constructive response from the team, it's easy to feel we're being ignored.
This is perpetuated when you put content on Tribble, for us to test, then completely ignore our feedback and continue to push it to Holodeck unchanged. It can make us wonder why we bother using Tribble and giving feedback about the new content.
I think the fact that so many people have replied to this thread, shows that it is a "big TRIBBLE deal" to us too. As somebody who has been playing this game since Beta, it is very important to me. I've devoted over three years of my gaming life to STO, created and developed nine characters, worked them all through the new rep systems, given them all a back story, tried many a new vessel in combat and exploration, spent what probably adds up to several thousand pounds on lifetime sub, ships, costumes, extra character slots and (annoyingly) lock boxes.
When fleet bases were added to the game, I was so happy. My fleet mates and I have all known each other for years and although we're a small fleet, the thought of being able to carve out a small part of the STO world where we could call 'home' put a bounce in my step. Sadly, we quickly realised that we'd never be able to attain our dream because there simply aren't enough of us to do so. This quickly turned the game sour.
I can appreciate the need for 'balance' and to make sure that fleets with 500 members don't get things handed to them on a golden plate on day one. But it does have the sad effect of relegating those of us who are long standing players, who simply don't want to break up our family and become part of a 500 mass where nobody really knows anybody, to never being able to attain a tier five base and reap the rewards that come with it.
I simply hope, that although you've introduced a higher rate of Fleet Marks on the existing content, that you don't walk away from this thread thinking that everything is fine and dandy now. There are still a lot of issues which this thread has brought up, which are important to a lot of us, you may even call some of them a "big TRIBBLE deal".
Disclaimer: This is not me hating on you or the team and I am truly thankful for the feedback you've posted here now and for the changes being introduced to the game with today's patch.
The problem is the same thing happened with Season 7 this is a systemic failure that needs to be addressed it's a long term issue that hasn't been resolved by anything Cryptic have done as of yet. This goes way beyond shifting beans into different pots.
Please once again I call for people who are interested in helping improve this game to PM me so we can move forward together I want start a community based dialogue here but I can't do it alone.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
WOW! I have to say, of all your statements, and you have said some whoppers, this one impresses me the most. As my mother would say, ?So if all the other Game Developers decided to jump off a bridge, you would too?? I mean way too go with the aiming low. Forget innovation. Forget trying to be better than the competition. It really makes you lose faith, when the Executive Producer says his products is just like all the others out there. And you wonder why you have such a low meta-critic score? I really would have to agree with all the critics who have said that STO is just a basic MMO with a thin Star Trek veneer on it.
How about striving for innovation in year four? How about not looking at other games and saying ?it worked for them, let just use that idea.?? How about digging deep into what Star Trek is all about and bringing that out in unique game play. You have done it in the past: Doffs, Foundry, and Featured Episodes. Those are all unique mechanics. Grind is not.
Beers,
Jengoz =\/=
Very well said - this isn't Hello Kitty Online or another cookie-cutter Asian grinder MMO, it's Star Trek FFS - are you really that uninspired by the IP that you can't do any better?
WHAT??!! While I realise this is taken somewhat out of the context of the larger post, it's sentiment is the same all the way through - the very notion is appalling! First, it isn't like ANY Starbase, the way they are set up right now, at least, serves a "valid purpose" other than to say "I have it and you don't." But, to even hint that smaller fleets equate to lesser or, in the spirit of this quote, should be "subservient" to larger fleets...:mad: My full response would get me banned from the Forums.
This is one of the problems being brought up in this thread, and the short summary is: small fleets are JUST as valid as larger fleets and deserve as much support and recognition as any other. I'll also say this: in my opinion, players disappear in large fleets, so they become just another lemming moving toward the cliff edge. If that's how you want to play, fine. But don't tell me that's how it SHOULD be.
The notion of "fleet" means team; team means cooperation, and only cooperation equals group success. In my experience, the only way that real cooperation happens is when you KNOW the faces you bump into every day, and they have your back because you have a relationship of respect and comradeship and you share common goals! I lead my fleet of 18, but I don't dictate to them - I discuss things with them. My experience with mega-fleets was being told "if you don't like it, I've got 300 other players to take your place."
Nothing against the larger or even the "mega" fleets, but don't try and sell the notion that one type of fleet, small or large, is superior or inferior to the other: they are just different strategies that fit different styles of play.
**[EDIT]** I re-read and re-read your post, sirsitsalot, and I get that you are not against small fleets exactly. But, the choice to remain small does not mean small fleets should get less: the food dish remains the same size whether you're a Great Dane or a Chihuahua, even if it takes longer for the Chihuahua to consume it. Small fleets should be able to obtain exactly the same things as larger fleets in their own time, not have the bar lowered so they can reach it more easily. The choice to play a certain way should not equate to the consequence of a different or, especially, lesser prize.
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge
(...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
It's not perfect and feels long... and really, I personally would rather get FM than RM from it. (Heck. Make the victims there random.)
But the enemies have a distinct feel and MO. If every FA had enemies that felt that distinct (but maybe not quite that long), I 'd be a lot more into grinding.
I'd suggest that once current content planned is out of the box, try to focus on one off races from the shows and give the big empires a rest. If you need to rely on the big empires to get attention every content release, it says to me that there's something lacking about the content and that you're leaning too hard on the shows to build up interest that your content itself isn't doing.
And maybe some attention should be paid to the difference between farming and grinding. People farm because they want to. People grind because they feel forced to to do something else. It's a subtle difference but a real one I think.
More intrinsic reward, less use of carrots. You still NEED a carrot but if that's everyone's primary motivation, well... That's like getting married for the ring.
Could Cryptic add in a smaller version of starbase missions? Ones that would be half the resources,half the cooldown,but also half the reward? In essence, taking a flight of 25 stairs to get to the first floor, and making another flight of stairs that would be 50, but get you to the same floor? In all honesty, there would be no actual increase in progression that you would get from the larger steps, but in terms of appearance, it would offer the smaller fleets the ability to see the progression at a smaller scale. Upgrade missions would be exempt from this,unless you wanted to make them a 2 parter, with the reward of the upgrade coming at the end of part 2.
Sometimes offering a smaller carrot closer to the nose is better than offering a huge carrot but not being able to smell it cuz its so far away. Just a thought. Don't even know if its feasible or wanted,but It's early for me and just felt like throwing in something constructive.
This makes me regret that I almost stopped playing real (= no MMORPG) games. I thought that "being that grindy" happened by mistake. Now I know that it is unlikely to change. I miss the time, when games were just meant to entertain (and not to simulate a full-time job). *sad*
I agree. Though I haven't played this one recently (time factor), I really like the concept of this map & mode. It really adds more complexity to the "shoot stuff" standard in game.
All part of the same pattern of rushed, under tested things being chucked onto Holodeck, when will they learn.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Hitting your head against a wall burns 150 calories per hour...
I'll start instantly...
Watch out for my Starship Comparator app at
http://ssc.levega.de or http://www.stoshipcompare.tk
It's a good (and meaningful) start.
I was particulary glad to see Mr Stahl recognise the problem with not taking into account feedback from tribble.
I hope that this leads to cryptic in general valuing feedback more.
A lot of our frustrations have, as an underlying cause, been based on the sense that we were being ignored.
Even if that frustration is untrue, the point is that we felt we were being ignored.
Clearly thats a problem all by itself.
So, in future I look forward to a little more asking and a whole lot less telling from cryptic.
We would love to give constructive feedback, indeed there is tons of it on this thread.
Mr Stahl, allow us to cooperate with you on an equal footing to make this game all it can be.
1) The fleet size issue is really simple to fix and keep everyone happy. Scale the requirements for fleet projects to the size of the fleet. Since this would be exploitable so easily, all you have to do to fix it, is make it so that all Fleet credit is lost on changing fleets. Exploit removed, small fleets get to be as happy as the big ones. Everyone gets starbase enjoyment.
2) Fleet marks... Really, all this ranting because they removed them from IOR daily ? Who cares. To be honest I get about 600 fleet marks a week without doing any missions or fleet events just from the Duty Officer trade in mission. And that's per toon. Not really difficult. As for the fleet events themselves, well it's true, if you go with PUGs you usually get done over since there's a lot of incompetent people dragging your rewards down. So either (a) go with fleet mates and do well, or (b) if you can't find any decent players to go with, find a fleet that is interested and will do these events with you because they want to too !
(Shameless plug - if you want a good fleet with people who are into the game and do like teaming up for fleet events, and STFs, join The Phoenix Vanguard !)
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
Then you obviously didn't read enough.
The Fleet Marks issue is a symptom - not the root cause of this thread.
And breaks the Andorian ship!!! WOOHOO!!!
The bar for excellence set by QA continues to hover about 2cm off the ground, apparently.
"And as far as Season 7 being "grindy" - welcome to the MMORPG genre."
Dan that is exaclty what is wrong!
Star Trek gamers are not like the "average" MMORPG player in other games!
We are not grinders, we are fans of Star Trek!
You have within your grasp a way to generate more profit than you could ever image and we would gladly support you if you just think about the following;
Playable Factions
And here is how it would generate for years the long term profit you want.
1) Ships, Weapons, Consoles, Bridge Officers, Duty Officers, Costumes [ship and character], etc. for the faction.
a) Available as a player levels up in that faction.
b) Special Z-Store versions
c) Ultra rare versions from your favorite money maker aka Lockboxes
d) New fun missions with drops that are worth the time spend in them as a reward.
e) STF based missions with something valuable that is only available from completing it.
f) New Fleet and Embassy bases for that faction (just don't make them into a grind)
And if you look at your "metrics" you will see this approach would work and give you a path that is unending for years to come. It opens the whole universe to your imagination!
So what factions am I talking about?
well let's start with the obvious one...
Romulan and continuing with these (not all at once but spread out over the launches);
Borg
Undine
Dominion
Cardassian
Hirogen
Orion
Ferengi (these are perfect to make into the pirates/traders of the universe)
Tholian
Reman
Well you get the picture... You never run out of something new to add for your next seson!
This also generates profit from the players buying more character slots and all the things that go with a playable faction.
You see, if you only look at short term "metrics" to create your "vision", then you miss out on what the Star Trek universe and it's fans really are... unlimited imagination with unlimited possibilites!
To quote something from your own web site...
"Players will have the opportunity to visit iconic locations from the popular Star Trek fiction, reach out to unexplored star systems and make contact with new alien species. With Episode Missions, every moment spent playing Star Trek Online will feel like a new Star Trek episode in which you are the star."
and last, but I think the most important "vision" for STO...(by the way from your web site again)
"Join us in Star Trek Online, and boldly go where no one has gone before!"
So as you can see, Star Trek is not like other MMORPG games at all and neither are we!
Zeus
*GASP* Cryptic released a product/patch with bugs and obviously wasn't fully tested? Say it ain't so!!!
Basically people paid $50 for ships against which a tier 1 ship (unintentionably) probably has better survivability.
We must be talking to ourselves in this thread.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
No just alot of dead hearing aid batteries! Looks like the new QA "vision" did not even last one full day! Oh well back to the campaign it seems...
PWE/Cryptic Where are you? Why are you NOT listening to your Customers again?
PWE/Crytpic Stop the PUBAR!
(PUBAR = Patched Up Beyond All Recognition)
Zeus
We can play this game all year long.
Talk about low expectations. I would rather want to be the best MMO in the world.
Did you just say, "We want to be like everyone else; thus, we do not care about innovating the MMO experience"?
Within one year of your competitor's game release, they are raising their level cap from 50 to 60. "Star Trek: Online" has been sitting at level 50 for three years.
You need to be replaced for having low expectations and a lack of innovative thinking.