I think everyone is getting a little bit offtrack here.
The facts are pretty simple and easy to follow.
1) Every ship is flying around with 50% ish shield resistance.
2) Every ship is passively regenerating a crapton of shields thanks to high shield power that requires very little sacrifice to get.
3) Most ships have even more passive regen via either reputation, doffs, or gear.
4) Leadership has brought this issue to the hull
If a ship can go from 1% to 100% in thirty seconds roughly by itself pressure damage does not exist. Burst is the only option.
exactly. even with pressure vs spike weapons, pressure weapons have 2 strikes against them. first of all thier dps is much less, second they deliver it gradually. with spike, its all delivered in a single second, not 4. and theres a single target damage buffing skill on top of that for spike. pressure weapons should not have that low dps that they have, the only strike against them should be the more gradual way they deal damage, it really, REALLY is all about how front loaded you can make damage that maters.
If you want a real good across the board nerf to survivability, remove the shield redistrubution from Tac Team.
Cruisers and slow turning ships totally obsolete? Give a Damage Reduction modifier, much like the shield modifier, to ships based on turn rate. The slower, the higher.
Most escort pilots will probably use the same loadout they have now while giving a Cruiser/Sci-ship some more damage options.
It might bring them more in line with the current reign of escorts.
Seems like this would be the easiest solution for Cryptic, seeing how as anything that requires actual coding overhaul seems too much of a headache to bother with. Meanwhile, they continue to introduce more exploitable and broken TRIBBLE.
Carriers are the only ship class I'm not so sure how this idea might effect them. But then again, the Lobi Store Tholian Carrier is pretty damn close anyway.
If you want a real good across the board nerf to survivability, remove the shield redistrubution from Tac Team.
Cruisers and slow turning ships totally obsolete? Give a Damage Reduction modifier, much like the shield modifier, to ships based on turn rate. The slower, the higher.
And remove the Damage Resistance and Hold Immunity from APO.
If you want a real good across the board nerf to survivability, remove the shield redistrubution from Tac Team.
Cruisers and slow turning ships totally obsolete? Give a Damage Reduction modifier, much like the shield modifier, to ships based on turn rate. The slower, the higher.
While removing shield distribution from TT might sound as a great way to reduce escort survieablity, the ships that are actually affected most are the turn 6-7 whales, that are unable to turn and split dmg to another shield facing.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
the station setup has nothing to do with the chair your boffs sit in. it has everything to do with how the ship was built, and what equipment and hardware it has. the station powers are a representation of all of that.
I don't think giving every ship all universal consoles would help, but it's a useful way to see how the different ship classes are balanced.
What I mean is that if you had a science ship with the same BOff stations as a cruiser, you'd have a better healing platform than the cruiser. The cruiser's basic stats work against it -- I don't think that's true for either of the other ship types.
If you want a real good across the board nerf to survivability, remove the shield redistrubution from Tac Team.
Cruisers and slow turning ships totally obsolete? Give a Damage Reduction modifier, much like the shield modifier, to ships based on turn rate. The slower, the higher.
all removing TT would do currently is make spike damage 10 times more dangerous. it would do basically nothing to prop up pressure, manual distribution can keep up with pressure. as long as there is DHC spike, there NEEDS to be TT.
(I like to beat on the same horse for quite some time:)
Set caps on the extremes. Limit how much you can boost damage. Limit how much you can regen hull, shields. Make hard caps per ship type on all these numbers, and balancing becomes easier.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
As a support ship; a klingon engineer in a cruiser can do some nice pressure damage with beams when using EPS, but also FAW combined with plasmonic leach.
As a support ship; a klingon engineer in a cruiser can do some nice pressure damage with beams when using EPS, but also FAW combined with plasmonic leach.
agreed, *some nice damage* can also come from a full aux carrier with 6 turrets. Really nice healing for the enemy comes from the same set up when turret crits trigger heals. /sarcasm
I wanted to relate my personal experience of an Arena match I had recently. I do not PvP much at all and just took my tac defiant with his standard PvE build (posted under warship thread on fed ships too lazy to find it) to see if it was still as silly as I remember it.
I don't recall who or what was on my team. The enemy team had two players from fleets I recognize as being decent from these forums. Their was a kitty carrier, a timeship escort, two cruisers, and either an AFK or not worth remembering fifth.
That was the most boring half hour of STO in a long time for me. I died twice. Not sure if someone was healing me or not but literally I would get nuked, denoobed, drained, and focused and still get away with EM (had nothing to break tractors) typically.
Offensively I would slaughter the timeship with a well timed semi burst, could wear down one of the cruisers, but the other cruiser and the kitty carrier were pretty much invincible even with the entire team firing upon them. I pumped more than enough damage into that stupid carrier to kill a gate+tac cube and it was mildly annoyed.
We won by killing their escort more times than I died. It was boring. There was very little give n take beyond getting hurt and using an ability to fix it. No plans on going back for awhile.
Increase raw HP, decrease healing effectiveness, have fun game!
sustained dmg should be boosted a little, even if it is balanced with spike dmg in terms of dps, the spike damage is harder to out-heal, not to talk that if it crits, the dmg bonus will be bigger too, that's why people prefer dhcs to dcs
the sustained dmg is easier to heal even if it haves the same dps because it gives you time to use heals, skills to cool down, crew to regen the hull and shields to charge
Ive seen some tanky ships the only way to pop them alone (tac in escort with all energy) is to use spike damage between their heals or when all heals are on cd which can be once every 200 days in a well thought tank/healer ...even then its trial and error
About a month ago I started working on a new PvP toon Livevil@LIVIN, sick of the escort and a being a classic crusier fan i equiped him in the fleet advanced heavey crusier(Excelsior). It took a bit of messing around but i found a great build. Most cruiser builds u see are the Aux2Bat dem build with cannons, great shield stripper but found i didn't have the punch to finish the job.
I find that i can survive till about 3v1 then its fk,fight,or hold the light. On my Tactical if im dropped below 30% (I like to try for 15-20%) RSP,GDF,APA,APO,DEM3,TAC FLT, this combo gives out 120% sheild pen for the duration of gdf,apa dem i am running 8x beam focusing on keeping my weapon power high all the time useing the aux2bat,EptW and batteries.
here is the build i use with one change in the pic it shows EptAux i now have ET instead to help pop my hull up after i hit GDF.
Currently, the hull repair bonus granted by the leadership trait and the Borg set (2 pieces) is uneffected by combat status and crew. I'm not sure if this is intended or a bug. To discuss this issue, I've created the following thread:
Currently, the hull repair bonus granted by the leadership trait and the Borg set (2 pieces) is uneffected by combat status and crew. I'm not sure if this is intended or a bug. To discuss this issue, I've created the following thread:
You operate with pretty small numbers there. My experimental cruiser build was at 500%, my steamrunner sits at 360%. Now in those ranges, the hull regen starts to be interesting I guess leadership will be nerfed soon. It took them 3 years to fix it, only to nerf it in 3 weeks.
If anything, the subsystem repair part is somewhat OP in PvP, because it cuts VM duration to 1-2s.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Here's a balance concern unevenly distributed among both faction. Keep em coming. maybe in 3 years time it ll get fixed.
Please continue to nerf the KDF, much more important /sarcasm_0
Well well, both sides aren't balanced from the start anyway. I do not like to use this argument, but all klingon ships have extra "cloak" for free. The lower hull hps are compensated by the turn rate (even tho we both know its not a fair trade).
Now I do not like one side neglected by content, and I quite do not understand why there is no 5 tac console escort on KDF side, or more science choices, but I hardly think Leadership trait on boffs affects the balance between KDF and FED.
If I accept that superior turn rate and cloak are perks for klingons, well by same logic I understand that superiorly trained and disciplined crew and especially engineers in starfleet should have effect via leadership.
For me, stacking romulan boffs for invisibile, undetectable bops is much more gamebreaking than extra 150% hull regen outside of combat at the cost of crit boffs.
Spikes kill, and elite fleet shields are much more game-breaking than this.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
You operate with pretty small numbers there. My experimental cruiser build was at 500%, my steamrunner sits at 360%. Now in those ranges, the hull regen starts to be interesting I guess leadership will be nerfed soon. It took them 3 years to fix it, only to nerf it in 3 weeks.
If anything, the subsystem repair part is somewhat OP in PvP, because it cuts VM duration to 1-2s.
Well, the first thread wasn't really concerned maximizing the hull repair rate, but to understand its mechanics. The second thread is meant to discuss whether the current behavior is intended or not.
Also the issue with the "bug" that keeps your the leadership bonus even at 0 crew is much more complicated. Because currently, the more crew you have, the LESS effective the natural healing is, because it takes longer for large ship to replenish crew. Total crew numbers have no effect on the repair rate, just the % of living crew.
An escort with 200 crew (or even the idiotic bug ship with 50 crew) profits from natural hull regen much more, than a cruiser with 1000 crew. When such cruiser blows up, it takes several minutes to get the crew back.
So if anything is imba here, is how small crew ships, like the TRIBBLE bug ship, gets all the goodies, while the big ships eat most the negatives.
If any change should happen, then that the hull repair gained should be linked to the total number of crew. Large ship = large bonus, small ship = small bonus.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
If anything, the subsystem repair part is somewhat OP in PvP, because it cuts VM duration to 1-2s.
I keep reading that the subsystem repair bonus from leadership is OP, but I also remember reading that the subsystem repair skill is mostly useless. Why is it suddenly useful now that it comes from boffs instead of the skill tree? As far as I understand, the sources of subsystem repair are just added together to get one stat, which then modified by crew.
Well well, both sides aren't balanced from the start anyway. I do not like to use this argument, but all klingon ships have extra "cloak" for free. The lower hull hps are compensated by the turn rate (even tho we both know its not a fair trade).
Now I do not like one side neglected by content, and I quite do not understand why there is no 5 tac console escort on KDF side, or more science choices, but I hardly think Leadership trait on boffs affects the balance between KDF and FED.
If I accept that superior turn rate and cloak are perks for klingons, well by same logic I understand that superiorly trained and disciplined crew and especially engineers in starfleet should have effect via leadership.
For me, stacking romulan boffs for invisibile, undetectable bops is much more gamebreaking than extra 150% hull regen outside of combat at the cost of crit boffs.
Spikes kill, and elite fleet shields are much more game-breaking than this.
Well if you really want to get into balance... Not all klingon ships get free cloak... only the low hull low shield Klingon variety. Of course you can claim ya but but the turn... come on there cruisers all it means is people throw cannons on... which is fine for pugs but isn't really viable outside of that.
Klingons still don't have any more then 1 sci ship that is and has always been the real balance issue. It doesn't matter how many battle cruisers we bring if the fed team has 2 half decent sci sci on the team. At that point Klinks loose almost every time badly.
Also the issue with the "bug" that keeps your the leadership bonus even at 0 crew is much more complicated. Because currently, the more crew you have, the LESS effective the natural healing is, because it takes longer for large ship to replenish crew. Total crew numbers have no effect on the repair rate, just the % of living crew.
An escort with 200 crew (or even the idiotic bug ship with 50 crew) profits from natural hull regen much more, than a cruiser with 1000 crew. When such cruiser blows up, it takes several minutes to get the crew back.
So if anything is imba here, is how small crew ships, like the TRIBBLE bug ship, gets all the goodies, while the big ships eat most the negatives.
If any change should happen, then that the hull repair gained should be linked to the total number of crew. Large ship = large bonus, small ship = small bonus.
I'm aware of the crew recovery issue. I also discuss crew recovery rates in my analysis. I really think crew recovery rates are bugged, because the crew recovery rate reported by the UI doesn't seem to apply at all.
Well if you really want to get into balance... Not all klingon ships get free cloak... only the low hull low shield Klingon variety. Of course you can claim ya but but the turn... come on there cruisers all it means is people throw cannons on... which is fine for pugs but isn't really viable outside of that.
Klingons still don't have any more then 1 sci ship that is and has always been the real balance issue. It doesn't matter how many battle cruisers we bring if the fed team has 2 half decent sci sci on the team. At that point Klinks loose almost every time badly.
But I said I do not understand why klingons do not have access to some ships and layouts, quite the same why I do not understand why fed cruisers are mostly TRIBBLE (compared to battlecruiser). the issue was that leadership imbalances FvK, I just said, it was never perfectly "balanced" in first place, as both sides have their perks.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I'm aware of the crew recovery issue. I also discuss crew recovery rates in my analysis. I really think crew recovery rates are bugged, because the crew recovery rate reported by the UI doesn't seem to apply at all.
I would like to help you with everything I know. But I won't do it. Past experience told me, that Cryptic is first to nerf, later to ask. And I can learn from my own mistakes, so I do not report anything anymore.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Pressure DPS is viable if the ship has 5 DHC's or is an Aux2Batt cruiser using CRF, single cannons and turrets, DEM3, and all the DEM buffing abilities and modifiers that make the ship a nightmare to deal with.
(as requested from another thread)
Arguing about this is probably pointless though, since you're going to tell me I'm wrong, and I'm going to tell you that you just aren't playing them correctly. At which point we'll flex our internet muscles at each other, and get no where.
Comments
exactly. even with pressure vs spike weapons, pressure weapons have 2 strikes against them. first of all thier dps is much less, second they deliver it gradually. with spike, its all delivered in a single second, not 4. and theres a single target damage buffing skill on top of that for spike. pressure weapons should not have that low dps that they have, the only strike against them should be the more gradual way they deal damage, it really, REALLY is all about how front loaded you can make damage that maters.
The Console layout/restrictions and ship class base stats and bonuses would remain as they are.
Then it just boils down to how the pilot chooses to outfit and customize their strategy.
Could make for some interesting builds.
For the love of star trek don't do this!
Do you even Science Bro?
Cruisers and slow turning ships totally obsolete? Give a Damage Reduction modifier, much like the shield modifier, to ships based on turn rate. The slower, the higher.
Why not?
Most escort pilots will probably use the same loadout they have now while giving a Cruiser/Sci-ship some more damage options.
It might bring them more in line with the current reign of escorts.
Seems like this would be the easiest solution for Cryptic, seeing how as anything that requires actual coding overhaul seems too much of a headache to bother with. Meanwhile, they continue to introduce more exploitable and broken TRIBBLE.
Carriers are the only ship class I'm not so sure how this idea might effect them. But then again, the Lobi Store Tholian Carrier is pretty damn close anyway.
And remove the Damage Resistance and Hold Immunity from APO.
While removing shield distribution from TT might sound as a great way to reduce escort survieablity, the ships that are actually affected most are the turn 6-7 whales, that are unable to turn and split dmg to another shield facing.
What I mean is that if you had a science ship with the same BOff stations as a cruiser, you'd have a better healing platform than the cruiser. The cruiser's basic stats work against it -- I don't think that's true for either of the other ship types.
all removing TT would do currently is make spike damage 10 times more dangerous. it would do basically nothing to prop up pressure, manual distribution can keep up with pressure. as long as there is DHC spike, there NEEDS to be TT.
Set caps on the extremes. Limit how much you can boost damage. Limit how much you can regen hull, shields. Make hard caps per ship type on all these numbers, and balancing becomes easier.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
agreed, *some nice damage* can also come from a full aux carrier with 6 turrets. Really nice healing for the enemy comes from the same set up when turret crits trigger heals. /sarcasm
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
anyways the issue is as defined spikes high so healing is high so pressure is low
lower spike lower healing and pressure comes back into the picture
so simply even a monkey could understand it guess that makes cryptic squirrels ?
I don't recall who or what was on my team. The enemy team had two players from fleets I recognize as being decent from these forums. Their was a kitty carrier, a timeship escort, two cruisers, and either an AFK or not worth remembering fifth.
That was the most boring half hour of STO in a long time for me. I died twice. Not sure if someone was healing me or not but literally I would get nuked, denoobed, drained, and focused and still get away with EM (had nothing to break tractors) typically.
Offensively I would slaughter the timeship with a well timed semi burst, could wear down one of the cruisers, but the other cruiser and the kitty carrier were pretty much invincible even with the entire team firing upon them. I pumped more than enough damage into that stupid carrier to kill a gate+tac cube and it was mildly annoyed.
We won by killing their escort more times than I died. It was boring. There was very little give n take beyond getting hurt and using an ability to fix it. No plans on going back for awhile.
Increase raw HP, decrease healing effectiveness, have fun game!
the sustained dmg is easier to heal even if it haves the same dps because it gives you time to use heals, skills to cool down, crew to regen the hull and shields to charge
About a month ago I started working on a new PvP toon Livevil@LIVIN, sick of the escort and a being a classic crusier fan i equiped him in the fleet advanced heavey crusier(Excelsior). It took a bit of messing around but i found a great build. Most cruiser builds u see are the Aux2Bat dem build with cannons, great shield stripper but found i didn't have the punch to finish the job.
I find that i can survive till about 3v1 then its fk,fight,or hold the light. On my Tactical if im dropped below 30% (I like to try for 15-20%) RSP,GDF,APA,APO,DEM3,TAC FLT, this combo gives out 120% sheild pen for the duration of gdf,apa dem i am running 8x beam focusing on keeping my weapon power high all the time useing the aux2bat,EptW and batteries.
here is the build i use with one change in the pic it shows EptAux i now have ET instead to help pop my hull up after i hit GDF.
http://www.guildportal.com/ContentControls/Support/InfoSectionViewer.aspx?GuildID=463615&TabID=3999923&GuildInfoSectionID=330907
~The Eleventh Order~
11thOrder Youtube
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=8340431&postcount=3
Currently, the hull repair bonus granted by the leadership trait and the Borg set (2 pieces) is uneffected by combat status and crew. I'm not sure if this is intended or a bug. To discuss this issue, I've created the following thread:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=8340991
You operate with pretty small numbers there. My experimental cruiser build was at 500%, my steamrunner sits at 360%. Now in those ranges, the hull regen starts to be interesting
If anything, the subsystem repair part is somewhat OP in PvP, because it cuts VM duration to 1-2s.
Please continue to nerf the KDF, much more important /sarcasm_0
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Well well, both sides aren't balanced from the start anyway. I do not like to use this argument, but all klingon ships have extra "cloak" for free. The lower hull hps are compensated by the turn rate (even tho we both know its not a fair trade).
Now I do not like one side neglected by content, and I quite do not understand why there is no 5 tac console escort on KDF side, or more science choices, but I hardly think Leadership trait on boffs affects the balance between KDF and FED.
If I accept that superior turn rate and cloak are perks for klingons, well by same logic I understand that superiorly trained and disciplined crew and especially engineers in starfleet should have effect via leadership.
For me, stacking romulan boffs for invisibile, undetectable bops is much more gamebreaking than extra 150% hull regen outside of combat at the cost of crit boffs.
Spikes kill, and elite fleet shields are much more game-breaking than this.
Well, the first thread wasn't really concerned maximizing the hull repair rate, but to understand its mechanics. The second thread is meant to discuss whether the current behavior is intended or not.
An escort with 200 crew (or even the idiotic bug ship with 50 crew) profits from natural hull regen much more, than a cruiser with 1000 crew. When such cruiser blows up, it takes several minutes to get the crew back.
So if anything is imba here, is how small crew ships, like the TRIBBLE bug ship, gets all the goodies, while the big ships eat most the negatives.
If any change should happen, then that the hull repair gained should be linked to the total number of crew. Large ship = large bonus, small ship = small bonus.
I keep reading that the subsystem repair bonus from leadership is OP, but I also remember reading that the subsystem repair skill is mostly useless. Why is it suddenly useful now that it comes from boffs instead of the skill tree? As far as I understand, the sources of subsystem repair are just added together to get one stat, which then modified by crew.
Well if you really want to get into balance... Not all klingon ships get free cloak... only the low hull low shield Klingon variety. Of course you can claim ya but but the turn... come on there cruisers all it means is people throw cannons on... which is fine for pugs but isn't really viable outside of that.
Klingons still don't have any more then 1 sci ship that is and has always been the real balance issue. It doesn't matter how many battle cruisers we bring if the fed team has 2 half decent sci sci on the team.
I'm aware of the crew recovery issue. I also discuss crew recovery rates in my analysis. I really think crew recovery rates are bugged, because the crew recovery rate reported by the UI doesn't seem to apply at all.
But I said I do not understand why klingons do not have access to some ships and layouts, quite the same why I do not understand why fed cruisers are mostly TRIBBLE (compared to battlecruiser). the issue was that leadership imbalances FvK, I just said, it was never perfectly "balanced" in first place, as both sides have their perks.
I would like to help you with everything I know. But I won't do it. Past experience told me, that Cryptic is first to nerf, later to ask. And I can learn from my own mistakes, so I do not report anything anymore.
(as requested from another thread)
Arguing about this is probably pointless though, since you're going to tell me I'm wrong, and I'm going to tell you that you just aren't playing them correctly. At which point we'll flex our internet muscles at each other, and get no where.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild