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Spike vs Pressure
mancom
Member Posts: 784 Arc User
So let's have a new thread.
Pressure damage is dead.
Anyone disagreeing?
Pressure damage is dead.
Anyone disagreeing?
Post edited by mancom on
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It'd be helpful if you re-stated what you believe the primary cause(s) to be. I believe it's Resists + Regen that you have a concern with, but I think you can state your case more clearly than I can regurgitate it.
And I'll re-state the wrench that I'll throw in the gears ... massive alpha strikes and SNB coordination are very real concerns on the opposite end of this spectrum. If we toned down Resists and Regen, it would only serve to amplify these tactics and further destabilize many PvP encounters.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Dead as a door nail. Any competent team can simply cross heal nearly any amount of pressure damage. Long ago people complained it was cruisers online, now it's escorts online, with science only used or SNB.
Beam arrays might as well be dead weight.
Suggesting that the situation gets worse when you supposedly shift the game more towards the currently ONLY viable option doesn't make much sense.
It used to be possible to send a single dps cruiser (or two semi-dps ships) after a healer or other target and eventually force that target to spend heals on itself to disrupt team healing and open up opportunities. With the current levels of non-boff resists and regen one can barely tickle a player let alone actually pressure him.
And here a copy of my text in the other thread:
Lecturing me about the powers of teamwork... yeah, that inspires confidence in your knowledge of the game.
No, this complaint is not rooted in 1v1 experiences. On the contrary, it comes from 5v5 premade matches.
A full team has a maximum sustained raw damage output against a single target of maybe 20k dps if we're generous. Now add in resists only from EPtS1 (18%), shield power (let's assume effective 80 power after EPtS), elite fleet shields (10*2% + 15% from resa/b) and for fun throw the player a single ES2 with 30% resist, then multiply all these together and you arrive at 70% resist - from stuff that ANY ship can carry + a single ES2 (it's 56% without the ES2; and all ships can carry higher levels of EPtS than just lvl 1 if they like).
Okay, back to the damage. 20k against a single target? 5% = 1k is bleedthrough (assuming resilient shields) and gets soaked up by leadership and the borg hull heal. 5% is simply absorbed by the resilient shield. 90% is shield damage. Now factor in resists. This leaves us with 5.4k dps. From a couple of short tests it looks like a sci ship with T4 passives will have something like 1k+ innate shield regen. EPtS is another 180+ healing per second. A TSS2 with medium aux is something like 300 hps (assuming a 45s cooldown; and we aren't even factoring in the additional resist), the ES2 gives another 400 hps (with a 45s cooldown). So we have easily something like 1.9k shield hps from the ship. (If we add heals among all the ships, we can get above the 5.4k dps, so focus fire without Alpha/SNB support won't get us anywhere.)
Let's assume we want to do something other than alpha/snb kills with a window of opportunity of just 2-3 seconds. Like pressure damage to soften up a target for a target switch of the remaining dps. Take 2 players firing at the target. We have 5.4k total, so two players will do ~2.1k dps. Subtract the 1.9k hps and we have 200 dps. A ship has something like 40k to 60k+ total shield capacity. So it takes us more than 200 seconds to wear down the shields of a single ship with TWO ships attacking a single ship that receives only an ES2. But then there is that teamwork you mentioned, which means the ship will certainly receive an additional heal or two in 200 seconds and we can't do anything to soften up the target. If we just send a single dps to pressure a healer (possibly with RSF+MW), nothing will happen at all. This used to be different.
(And don't forget: achieving this healing is significantly easier to do than dealing the assumed 20k dps.)
You may have noticed that there weren't any significant assumptions about the ship being of a specific class or captain type. I guess innate regen will vary a little, but for example escorts will receive better defense scores to compensate that. So the numbers are more or less shipclass-agnostic.
Now maybe you disagree with my figures. Let's hear yours. What are the dps/hps figures around which you balance the abilities?
Oh, and just for fun: What is the average resist that you suspect is currently the norm in somewhat organised pvp matches?
Using which combination of abilities + gear? What is the opportunity cost (if any) associated with ensuring that you (and your team) are capable of being able to shrug off all but he mightiest of alpha strikes? Is it easy enough that your average Newbie or PUG can manage, or solely the purview of Premades and Veterans?
Seriously - let's steer away from the hyperbole and blanket statements, and dig into the guts. I know this community can do so.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
We are talking about PRESSURE damage.
The opportunity cost of shrugging off pressure damage is essentially zero. Elite fleet shields, EPtS (which you would carry anyway), Human boffs, t4 shield passives and TT to use all four shield facing (an ability that you also carry in almost all builds).
This is downright insulting after I had already posted a lengthy treatise in the other thread (and reposted here) which included numbers and abilities and everything.
1. Elite fleet shield providing far too much resistance making so teams who cant do enough spike damage to one ship, aka instakill them in one strafe round, is immortal and very hard to take down. These shields i daresay, give escorts the greatest advantage, giving them ability besides speed tanking the ability to also shield tank proper.
2. Ships like the JHAS being the superior damage dealer, making most escorts obsolete in the fact they can deal the most spike damage, with high survivability. The JHAS is too the only ship which can take out my Wells with 17k shields and 39k hull in one volley if the player is properly buffed. Dont get me started with how poorly crusiers and sci ships perform in the damage department. This fact is further impacted by the third factor -->
3. Tactical consoles does not have a stacking bonus like engineering and science has, which im still curios over why, and severly limits options and making damage far too powerful. What i too find curios is too why certain tactical space boff and captain abilties effect science skills as well.
In essence something needs to be looked into at the tactical department, and if I may be so bold to say, the JHAS. I feel this game and the developers are too biased towards tactical, as this particular field affects abilties outtside their intended field and the fact the consoles does not stack. Borticus, i hope you have a VERY good explanation.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
... That's exactly what I was talking about, too ...
I thought it would've been obvious that my statement wasn't aimed at you.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I know I had a solid high pressure damage build w/Tac Commander and DHCs and a Sci captain. It's much less effective now. I haven't tweeked it yet to a more spike oriented build.
The other issue is being able to spike defense for ships w/hangars and certain Flight Deck Doffs in recall mode. This and a movement immunity ability that's chainable will make pressure less effective just based on the number of misses.
I'm not sure how BA would do w/FAW w/CritH&D procs after they're fixed. W/o the procs they're lacking for certain.
Also, there are the various console abilities/Doffs (Fortress/JamAPconsole/Aux2batt/SNB Doffs etc that can scew things).
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Right now, in premade v premade set ups, massive alpha strikes and coordinated SNBs are the only way to get reliable kills.
On top of this you can't even wear down the opponent, due to fleet shields. So shooting them over any period of time basically hinders your actual goal of wanting to kill them.
You either coordinate a massive alpha + SNB strike with DHCs or your target will literally shrug off what you toss at them.
CRF + DHCs + APO on their own might as well be throwing wet noodles at a good player.
and extend shields should make the person using it take part of the damage based on level of the skill it should not heal a target
leave the only true heal abilities for shields as one time boosts such as sci team and epts
and then you can avert a spike via these to a target but it will cost the healer greatly and they can be pressured out of a fight might even be able to lower these spikes down a bit due to this fact.
and borticus if the problem is that spike is too high and thus healing is to high as well maybe BOTH must come down?
Pressure damage is not dead due to tactical consoles and the Bugship/escorts, that's just completely out of left field.
Right now, if you removed DHCs from the game - I'm not convinced it would be possible to actually end a serious match.
DHCs are not the culprit, they are one of the very few things that have managed to keep pace with all of the added passive healing and resistances.
Pressure damage weapons are drowning against those resists and passive heals. That's the issue.
To clarify are you implying a coordinated veteran team Alpha of a Tac Sci combination shouldn't kill "average Newbie or PuG"?
If a "average Newbie or PuG" can take a coordinated veteran Alpha of Tac and Sci, how much will a Veteran team be able to take? Will they even be breakable?
I'm sorry, but if you're balancing this along the lines of poor players needing to survive a coordinated Alpha you're changing the game.
Edit: A coordinated alpha spike would consist of 4 Captain abilities or more and at least 4 high end boff abilities between the 2 captains. A hyrbrid ship can survive the alpha and buy time on it's own w/o using a captain ability, but instead having coutners built in and the ability to spike shield resists 2 ways, movement 2 ways and 2 hull resist buff. For example TT and epts w/ high shield preset, then RSP w/Shield batt and/or high eng power and evasives, w/ET as a backup or ST to clear SNB. The order and choices depend on the player's ship and role, but it can be defended w/a single toon until allies react. Notice the opportunity costs are higher on the 2 attacking ships.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
First part is too prove that its either spike or bust! Pressure damage is gone as a result of that.
Proposing to remove DHC from the game is silly. If they want to balance DHC`s, then it should go towards how much energy they drain pr cycle. As of now the beams eat so much energy, its laughable compared to dmg output.
But as you say the fleet shields and the excessive unnessecary passive shield heals is NOT needed. They should be removed or replaced with other modifiers.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
My bad on the blanket statement and hyperbole, I didn't intend for it to sound like that.
Most of this is the preview of Veterans and Premades. Lack of cooperation between PuG's and the randomness of what you get is a limiting factor on effectiveness.
Alright, for me I don't have the GB and GB of data that Mancom has, but from a 3 year player:
As a Tactical officer in a EptS 3 capable ship, My BASE Shield Damage Resistance value hovers at approximately 64% before resists from elite resilient shields come into play. One HE 1 is usually all I need to overcome whatever bleed-through is penetrating my shields. So for a heal ship the cost is pretty low to sustain me in a fight. Honestly anything less than being hit by between 2 to 3 SNBs consecutively is simply shrugged off.
I literally wait out 1 SNB. Or Throw an RSP as a counter under that SNB/Focus fire barrage.
As Mancom's hypothetical is very much how some of the high tier PvP matches go. For 3 hours a match sometimes.
We usually have one defiant escort cloaked for a "Mighty Alpha strike of Godsmack", and one dedicated healer in serious matches. We (SOB) do similar what he said, try and bait the healer with one or two escorts to make it heal itself and then switch targets immediately in an attempt to spike the real target. At this point the reserve Defiant decloaks with the "Mightiest of Alphas" and we hope for a 2x BO III with a critical hit to spike the target into oblivion.
Equipment/skills:
EptS 3, Team fortress, ES 1 or 2, Elite shields, Romulan reputation shield proc, HE 1, PH.
On Pressure Damage:
Using the T4 Omega kinetic Proc, Polarized Disruptors turrets/ single cannons, Romulan Plasma embassy console the Omega Weapon Amplifier, EptW1, DEM3 with the Energy drain resist doff, CRF1 and stacked with ApA, GDF, Tactical Fleet, TB with shield drain doff, and Tetryon Glider.
This produces probably the most pressure damage I know of. With firing sequences of 125 weapon power sustained. I'll watch a ship go from 100% to 30% before 2x HE from the enemy team will wash the damage away like it wasn't there.
You realize that a lot of escort style ship absurd hull tanking could be brought into line by simply removing the ability to cycle Delta and Omega?
By adding 2 doffs Attack Pattern Conn Officers the pattern becomes:
Omega 3-> Delta 1-> Omega 3-> Delta 1 etc.
The side effect of this other than the Damage boost and debuffing, is that your average ship with no points in armor reinforcement or hull reinforcement or threat generation has around 30%-35% damage resist at all times, without any armor consoles.
Using PH, and BFI can also skew this value much higher.
We are moving towards a situation where almost everyone can tank nearly everything and only premades can score kills against somewhat capable players. Of course, in random queue matches you will always have players who use weird gear, don't redistribute shields and don't use TT/EPtS, but you can't balance absurd healing levels by hoping that there will be enough clueless people in a match to avoid eternal stalemates.
We have 1 with us right now Hilbert
Oh, Sophie, I quote:
"PvP is not and cannot be effectively balanced around duels when we have 5v5 (or more) arenas as the standard match"
The dev's words....
Conversely, if players are capable of single handedly negating pressure damage when focus fired by premades, what hope does a casual PvPer or newcomer have?
While my Kirk complex loves swooping in with a Regent and having 400x the damage of the rest of the arena combined, it's not fun and it's ultimately damaging to PvP as a whole.
Yup. That also means, those who have 2-3 tac consoles and no DHCs are mostly liablity to the team.
A year ago flying into the furball with FAW zipping every which-way and the healers and science ships rapidly switching their beams over to new targets would actually put a lot of pressure on shields, even if those ships weren't always running at max weapon power. Basically it gave you a timer for how long you could be in the thick of things.
That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
What I'm getting at it is that small changes to the weaker DPS platforms could help make pressure damage relevant.
Would it be horrible if regular science ships used Aux to power their weapons the way the Vesta uses aux for it's cannons? That seems to be one of the things keeping the Vesta viable while other science ships are failing.
It might not be bad to increase the damage from science abilities in general.
I'm not sure what could be done to help cruisers start contributing to pressure again. Maybe making their beam weapons stop draining weapon power would help, so that as long as they are using beams they consistently fire at high power.
Basically I think that it should be assumed that DHCs are fine, but that ships which can't mount DHCs are not contributing as much as they ought to. The weaker ships don't need to suddenly replace escorts, but they should be able to group up and wear targets down.
It is only alien to you - don't you not get it? The whole point of Cryptic supporting bootcamp is to get more people to discover the enjoyment of team based side of PVP. Why do we have a team based queuing system? Again, to promote team play.
You should have said "I alienate myself from team based pvp" as it isn't alien to "most players"
And I would like to point out that the Premade vs. Premade players who are posting in this thread are trying to help everyone, including the PUG players.
From your posts it doesn't seem that you recognize this.
What can stop a spike and also neutralize pressure damage, you want powers? Ok:
Emergency Power to Shields 1-3 or Transfer shield strength 2 or 3 + Hazard Emitters 1 or 2 + Tactical team 1 + Extend Shields 1 or 2 or 3 + (Optional) + Science team 2 or 3 (Optional) + Engineering Team 2 or 3 + (Optional) Aux to Structural
Where the Optionals get added in if the spike or pressure damage happens to be enough that it is required. How ever The optionals are almost OVERKILL when it comes to pressure damage. ESPECIALLY where single beam arrays are concerned.
In a well oiled Premade, or with at least 2 (Some times even 1) veteran Healer based ships on a team, you can nearly neutralize most Pug based fire power, unless in those pugs are also veteran based damage dealers. This is also not taking into account if the players in the Pug have to defend themselves.
Most players are taught to use the following powers on their ships:
Hazard Emitters, Transfer shield strength, Emergency Power to Shields, and Tactical Team.
Those 3 powers can defend against a Spike and Pressure damage quite easily. And it works like this:
I see incoming fire from DHC's.. I apply Tactical team on my self and then use either TSS or EPtS on my self. And unless I'm facing a specialized shield stripping via Tetryon Glider, I'll almost guarantee that I won't die. Even against 2 or even 3 other ships, that combination can keep me alive ON MY OWN. Both Spike AND Pressure.
IF I see the Bleed through is becoming more then my shields can handle, I'll use Hazard Emitters. That's right.. One power.
If I'm on a ship that I can run both Hazards 2 and TSS 2, I'll use Hazards 2. IF not, I use Hazards 1. And this doesn't even take into account having a 2 piece Borg set, Reputation Bonuses, or Doffs.
The above situation will completely neutralize Pressure damage. Because you won't be able to deal enough Pressure damage to get through the defenses I've listed above. Add in Resist Consoles, Ship innate regen, Defense bonuses, And pressure damage becomes pointless.
Pressure Damage should be a viable tactic. It should be where Plasma Weapons come into play, or Beam Arrays on Cruisers. How ever with Hazard emitters completely clearing Plasma Dots at just an Ensign based power, and giving the amount of resists it gives as well, not to mention Consoles, there is really no point from my experience. Even a Carrier with his pets is not enough. Not unless it's a Vor'quv + Advanced BoP based Pets. Because then you can get a Spike from those pets.
It's why 4-5 Man Escort/BoP teams can wreck the Public Pugged up Queues. They have the Spike damage for those "Super Spikes". A science officer can easily use their SNB from one while continuing to contribute. And they have all the heals they need to defend themselves almost solely against a typical Pug flying in a Cruiser. And they have the Defense causing most of the shots to miss or be FAW based and not focused on the same target.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
The way I see it, you have:
Sustained DPS: Fairly consistent damage. In general autofire plus passive buffs, debatably excluding weapons with narrower firing arcs.
Burst Damage (which is not DPS. It's burst): Damage which occurs in spikes.
Average DPS: Which includes both and is averaged out based on typical performance.
Alpha Strike Damage: Burst damage which is typically only available at the beginning of a fight.
Pressure Damage: Burst damage which can be initiated infrequently but which typically is not used at the beginning of a fight but at a point later in. (May include a second triggering of alpha strike abilities.)
(Alpha and Pressure can dramatically determine how fights go but should have less or maybe almost no bearing on average DPS.)
Speaking as an old WoW Warrior:
Sustained -> Heroic Strike
Burst -> Mortal Strike/Slam
Alpha -> Victory Rush
Pressure-> Execute
If that's not what's being discussed, hammering out the terms is important.
I wouldn't call Pressure Damage a subset of Burst damage. While there maybe AoE burst aspects via FaW or CVS for some energy builds, it's not required. The point of pressure damage is to force people to use resists/repairs on themselves and/or weakan a target for an alpha later or make them withdraw from the field.
Sustained Effective DPS may or may not include Pressure Damage. The effecitive is important since w/FaW as an example missing a lot (w/e that is) means it's no longer sustained. This is just a baseline of damage.
Alpha is a fully buffed spike based damage. For this game ~2-5 seconds depending on what's used. It can happen often in a fight (not just the beginning particular vs KDF BCs).
Burst is a damage which is on for a short duration then off for a longer durations. DHCs BOs and HYT are examples of this.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
This is what everyone is referring to as pressure DPS, generally the realm of beam arrays and single cannons, etc. Currently negated easily by all the new resists and passive heals.
Used to pressure targets and/or their healers.
Mostly irrelevant for this conversation, and only really useful for a rough eyeballing of performance over an extended period or different matches.
No, Alpha Strike is used in this conversation to mean very literally Attack Pattern Alpha.
When that's up, you have an Alpha Strike ready.
You can also load for a super alpha by also popping GDF, Tac Fleet, APO, etc.
But basically for the main bulk of your killing you need APA and a subnuc (or subnucs as it often becomes).
As for beam arrays and other alike weaponry... all my ships can hold off a good beamboat with EPtS1 (from 25 base power!), TSS2 (Not essential) and manual shield distribution, I then use Aux2SIF to protect my paintwork :P ... but back to seriousness, SERIOUSLY?!?!? Even a semi-decent PvE player has 99% uptime on EPtS!
1 skill holds off 90% of beam damage from 6 beams fired at full power and EPtW overcap thus rendering beam arrays useless for any pvp engagement but you cant change the ability without everyone dying even faster to DHCs.
I'd say there is something majorly wrong...