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Space PVP Concerns Directory 1.0

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  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Video added for item 12. Siphin Drones
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    With the a2batt doffs you loose significant survivability to gain that so why is that imbalanced. Isnt that what we do as pvpers? Anyway, stick to issues please No debating in this thread :)

    Kettle calling pot....lol

    What? I haven't debated a thing I presented what I feel are problems and why. You are the one who is attempting to bait me into a debate by making the obvious false claims:

    1. My post was limited to Tech doffs when it clearly isn't.

    2. Tech doffs make builds less survivable when I have posted a build in another thread that allows for a copy of rsp to be reduced to it's system cooldown of 1 minute, HE reduced to 31.5 seconds instead of 45, TSS reduced to 31.5 instead of 45, EPTS3 to 31.5 and likewise to other abilities. But, again reread the post it's not about Tech Doffs themselves.

    Now please add to the list. Or I will debate a great many things in this thread starting w/your selfserving clique based choice to call me out for no good reason.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    A couple quick updates that will appear in a future patch (if QA gives the OK):

    - Nadion Inversion is no longer cancelled if you suffer a "Weapons Offline" mode.
    - Tricobalt Mines now deal damage to their owner, if they remain in the blast radius (same as Tricobalt Torpedoes).

    1: Yay
    2: Aww... QQ...
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    What? I haven't debated a thing I presented what I feel are problems and why. You are the one who is attempting to bait me into a debate by making the obvious false claims:

    1. My post was limited to Tech doffs when it clearly isn't.

    2. Tech doffs make builds less survivable when I have posted a build in another thread that allows for a copy of rsp to be reduced to it's system cooldown of 1 minute, HE reduced to 31.5 seconds instead of 45, TSS reduced to 31.5 instead of 45, EPTS3 to 31.5 and likewise to other abilities. But, again reread the post it's not about Tech Doffs themselves.

    Now please add to the list. Or I will debate a great many things in this thread starting w/your selfserving clique based choice to call me out for no good reason.

    Take it you missed the bit at the bottom where i was calling myself......

    Kettle calling pot is a saying in england where loosely translated, i have no room to talk on this matter. Firstly because i was debating myself and secondly because all the proposed doffs this covers I own. As for the self serving comment, please do explain how. Self serving in the sense of pvp being overhauled, yes. Other ways? Please do elaborate.

    Only reason its not added yet is cant do it on a tablet
    Seems like humour has gone altogether.....
  • emoejoeemoejoe Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    tricobalts mines also self damage! yay justice
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Only reason its not added yet is cant do it on a tablet
    Seems like humour has gone altogether.....

    theres no reason to add them, they balance them selves. by making the 2 good heals over time do vastly reduced effect, your doing the most damage to your tanking ability. an RSP is only going to prolong the inevitable, not save you if you were going to be killed anyway.

    as soon as any ship that can use tech doffs well can out do a bug, then we can start saying they need to be looked at. fed cruisers with tech doffs still deal short bus damage, and wile kdf cruisers damage is significantly buffed by using them, any escort is going to deal more damage. i use them because i like using cruisers tactically, not because i found the best op thing ever.

    were are the premades pug stomping everything with tech doff ships? they don't exist for a reason. they help cruisers be what they arent, only so far, and takes away their ability to support. and these lol destroyers, it makes them usable.
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    theres no reason to add them, they balance them selves. by making the 2 good heals over time do vastly reduced effect, your doing the most damage to your tanking ability. an RSP is only going to prolong the inevitable, not save you if you were going to be killed anyway.

    as soon as any ship that can use tech doffs well can out do a bug, then we can start saying they need to be looked at. fed cruisers with tech doffs still deal short bus damage, and wile kdf cruisers damage is significantly buffed by using them, any escort is going to deal more damage. i use them because i like using cruisers tactically, not because i found the best op thing ever.

    were are the premades pug stomping everything with tech doff ships? they don't exist for a reason. they help cruisers be what they arent, only so far, and takes away their ability to support. and these lol destroyers, it makes them usable.

    Issue / Not issue then?
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I agree Aux2bat builds are a non issue
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Take it you missed the bit at the bottom where i was calling myself......

    Kettle calling pot is a saying in england where loosely translated, i have no room to talk on this matter. Firstly because i was debating myself and secondly because all the proposed doffs this covers I own. As for the self serving comment, please do explain how. Self serving in the sense of pvp being overhauled, yes. Other ways? Please do elaborate.

    Only reason its not added yet is cant do it on a tablet
    Seems like humour has gone altogether.....

    I had taken the bottom part as to be directed at me as well as the no debating comment which in turn felt like selective outrage on your part when I'd not debated other peoples' issues in this thread even though I don't agree with some of them.

    To clarify, the issue w/the 1st issue I listed is w/the cooldowns in general not being balanced. Last year when maint. doffs, as an example, were released they effected all Teams instead of just 1. The Dev (Heretic) saw how this was OP and split the effect into 3 different Doffs (as well as fixing the broken effect of double triggering). Imo, things are better this way.

    Leaving Tech Doffs out of it, Photonic/AP Doffs are non-chance based, yet Deflector Doffs are chance based and Deflector based skills tend to have higher/shared cooldowns. This isn't balanced even among themselves. Imo, there needs to be a line of how many Boff abilities of what quality are effected and consistancy/balance for when chance based cooldown Doffs are used or not.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    If they are dealing ANY damage to you, the Jam time will be reduced. This includes "passive" sources of damage like:

    - Hangar Pets
    - Plasma DOTs
    - Aceton Assimilator bursts
    - Eject Warp Plasma
    etc, etc.

    Anything that has the user of the AMS as its ultimate source, and deals damage.

    Just got AMSed by a Torp BoP. No change in how AMS worked while he was fireing on me.
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Fragment Time...fragments time - causes desync, locking the UI to mouse clicks and keybinds until death. May require a restart the first time - usually forces a need to restart the client by the third time. You could give everybody Dual Heavy Genesis Device Cannons with a 360 arc...and I'd be less concerned about that...than I would be the utter frustration I feel because of what Fragment Time causes.

    It is not the ability itself - that's fine - it's the effects suffered afterward that is the issue. If it didn't cause the desync, wouldn't care in the least - it would just be another thing in the game...
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Item: Romulan Cloak Buff Boffs in FvK
    Concern: The stealth bonus is so strong, that even with ship equiped and SOLD for anti-stealth combat using the tachyon grid console, I cannot see ships with said boffs even few kms next to me, even with pretty high sensor rating.

    WTF is this ? First you make old ships obsole, by those obscure stats on new ships (see vesta), then you implement stuff that makes the older ships even worse at the JOB THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO.

    Solution: For Spocks sake, if you create an ability with 3 MINUTE cooldown, make it at least WORK and do not break it by some "cool" RP nonsense like romulan boffs. FIX IT
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    yeah i don't think the TDG ever had any use, except for desyncing spam heavy teams. Techinically it wouldn't be a fix, but actually giving it a function, it should have had 2 years ago .

    So whats the verdict on Smurf, and elite fleet shields? We ok with these, because we like the feddie premades using them?

    ehm, Item: smurf ship is redonculous, kdf teams have no viable alternative. If all escorts go 5/2 t tac consoles, we need a kdf option to do this as well.

    Item: Elite fleet shields, are stroooong. Maybe a little tooo strong.
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Skill Inertial Dampeners

    Issue: Seems to have no effect vs. Tractor Beams of any type, power, or size of ship. The Tool Top description states you will be slowed less from Tractor beams (Tractor Beam is a Hold not a slow). Works fine vs. Tractor Beam Repulsors, or any other ability listed from what I can tell.
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    webdeath wrote: »
    Skill Inertial Dampeners

    Issue: Seems to have no effect vs. Tractor Beams of any type, power, or size of ship.
    Unless it has changed, the situation is as follows:

    ID only resists the speed reduction by TB, not the turn rate reduction. This makes it feel rather useless against TB.
    1042856
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    mancom wrote: »
    Unless it has changed, the situation is as follows:

    ID only resists the speed reduction by TB, not the turn rate reduction. This makes it feel rather useless against TB.

    Every time I've been held by a Tractor Beam, I have never been slowed. And typically I have to Evasive and engine battery to get out of it.
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • afree100afree100 Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Ignore the Orange bits until I have more data
    I recommend changing 08 to:

    08. Bridge Officer: Human Bridge Officer
    Issue: The subsystem repair component of multiple human bridge officers seem too effective compared to other bridge officers when combined with the hull repair (including the Romulan bridge officers)
    Status: Under review

    That is assuming of course that all boffs (or a lot more) will be given nice space bonuses in the future (like the romulan boffs, esp klingon side).


    Review of further concerns:

    10. Weapon: Photon Torpedo
    Issue: Not as effective as other torpedoes so never used in PvP teams
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic

    Dosen't really need to be they are for most dps in PvE (although I must admit it would be nice if all items were equally useful in PvP).

    16. Doff: Sub Nucleonic DOFF
    Issue: Still feels too overpowered
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic

    Is also useless against Elite Fleet Shields (Naldoran said there buff acts as a 'shield' against these doffs) but if that is fixed this doff does need serious nerfing.

    17. Ability: Attack Pattern Omega
    Issue: Too many buffs for 1 ability compared to other attack patterns makes it a required ability on escorts
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic

    PvP vs PvE again

    18. Ship: JHAS
    Issue: Makes all other escorts inferior in turn, hull and bridge officer layout
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic

    All things considered this ship is only overpowered in the turn, and that needs a small nerf (Jem Hadar Attack Ship)

    19. Ability: Extend Shields
    Issue: Perceived to be overpowered. Should Sub Nuke remove this buff from target or leave it intact? Should it / Does it multi stack?
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic
    Issue: Healer can permanently chain this ability with 100% up time
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic

    Not really, Transfer Shield Strength is a really good alternative (although I must admit with a sacrifice to damage), and the resist is not really useful at all as long as target has Elite Fleet Shields

    21. Profession: Engineers
    Issue: Lack of profession specific abilities which are castable on team mates (MW and RSF)
    Status: Under review

    Its not so much there non ability to heal team mates that is the problem (after all they are really for allowing you to sacrifice your heals to another ship) but they ammount they give/there cooldown.

    22. Ability: Defense and Movement
    Issue: All or nothing nature leads to a held target being disproportionally vulnerable
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic
    Issue: Lack of other sources of defense leads to disproportionate value for sources of movement immunity and ships which can maintain that immunity
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic

    Not an issue really, the ability that needs to 'hold' them there comes at quite a cost to suvivability which is important on all ships + movement debuffs can be stopped by a great deal of 'stuff'.

    23. Ability: Tactical Team
    Issue: Removes debuffs for 10s when all other teams work for 5s. Makes debuffing nearly impossibly
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic

    I really don't know what to think, but messing with this could be really bad for the game, they way debuffs work now requires effort and timing it is probably not going to be good to take that away

    And an additon:

    Ability: Miracle Worker
    Issue: Cooldown of 4mins is way to long making this ability very weak compared to other professions
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic
    Starfleet M.A.C.O. KDF Honor Guard
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Any updates yet Borticus?
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Any updates yet Borticus?

    Most of the listed issues are complicated, and would require hours or even days of testing, planning and prototyping potential ways to address them. Not much I could review/fix during a lunch break. Which I suppose could be seen as a good thing. But it means it's tough to find time to make any progress, right now.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Most of the listed issues are complicated, and would require hours or even days of testing, planning and prototyping potential ways to address them. Not much I could review/fix during a lunch break. Which I suppose could be seen as a good thing. But it means it's tough to find time to make any progress, right now.
    That means you can only do balancing work and bugfixing during your personal time? You don't get official time for this? Why not? Who do we have to petition to get someone to work fulltime on these issues?

    And just to make it clear: It would be perfectly fine with me if S8 was only about bugfixing and did not add a single bit of new content. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks like that.
    1042856
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Most of the listed issues are complicated, and would require hours or even days of testing, planning and prototyping potential ways to address them. Not much I could review/fix during a lunch break. Which I suppose could be seen as a good thing. But it means it's tough to find time to make any progress, right now.

    Once May release is over, does that mean you will have more time for these issues with a dedicated team?
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Sorry bort, but we have been hearing this for too long. Occe S5 is over, not enough coffee mugs, ...may update, after that it'll be the next big release.

    I thought we have an anonymous pvp czar. Where is he or she. I m sorry that the game needs fixes that extend coffee breaks. Where do we carry our forks and torches, so someone will actually do this work as part of ..... you know their job. We're not in beta anymore.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    mancom wrote: »
    That means you can only do balancing work and bugfixing during your personal time? You don't get official time for this? Why not? Who do we have to petition to get someone to work fulltime on these issues?

    We most likely have to petition the people in charge of money, marketing and whoever it is that answers to the line of people who answer to PWE shareholders. ;)


    mancom wrote: »
    And just to make it clear: It would be perfectly fine with me if S8 was only about bugfixing and did not add a single bit of new content. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks like that.
    '


    The question most likely comes down to ROI.


    Maybe we could have SB projects that aren't costmetic but are instead for community wide bug fixes. :P


    I'm sort of kidding, but it might actually get bugs fixed.



    Anyway, a special thanks to Bort who stops in here and gives us updates in his spare time.
  • freedumb4evafreedumb4eva Member Posts: 269
    edited March 2013
    Why isn't Subnucleonic Beam/Overpowered shield heals/resist listed as a PVP concern?

    Sub Nuc is required to kill targets in PVP that receive ANY shield heals/resist because shield heals/resistances have gotten out of control.

    A team full of Tacs will have a lot of difficulty killing any target that is being healed by self and teammates.

    Since this is true, Sub Nuc is required to remove all of the buffs on the target in order to make them vulnerable. This lends to Sub Nuc being the most over-powered single skill in PVP...

    If shield heals/resist weren't so insane, then we could see Sub Nuc changed to be more similar to the Nerfed "Sub Nuc," Doff... it's ridiculous to have any skill remove every single buff including teams on a target, yet it's required since shield heals/resist are so insane.

    Note: there are other ways to take down targets with high shield resist/regen, i.e. power drain, but Sub Nuc is still by far the most effective and over-powered way to do it.

    Sub Nuc cannot be changed unless this issue is looked at in total.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    02. Item: Tachyon Mines
    Issue: Seem to be too powerful at stripping shields and hampering shield repair / regen
    Status: Under review


    After having had the...pleasure...of experiencing the joy that are tachyon mines by a particular spammer over the weekend, I think the description of the issue should read:


    Issue: Can completely remove all (?) shield facings in a single go, this is most likely a death sentence. The cost opportunity is exceedingly low, for sacrificing a single rear turret you can "TRIBBLE out mines" that will totally remove an opponents shields.
  • darkfader1988darkfader1988 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Add to the list the total unbalance between the 4 'emergency power to' abilities where EptShields is pretty much a necessity for about everyone, where Emergency power to Engines/Weapons are rather useless on most builds or far inferior to the effect that EptS gives.

    10% base dmg increase for 5 seconds on EptW? rEally? lol.

    And we all know unless u run a beam array broadsiding build EptW doesnt do much good.

    The +power level on all abilities are rather balanced, Or equal even, its the second effect that is totally out of whack.

    18% resist to shields and the shield power level increase on EptS for 30 seconds
    10% dmg boost for 5 seconds and the power level increase isnt worthwhile on anything but a beam array broadside boat.

    bad balance. What does EptA even do other then the power level boost? A tiny bit stealth detection increase for 5 secs? lol.
    MT - Sad Pandas
  • darkfader1988darkfader1988 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Why isn't Subnucleonic Beam/Overpowered shield heals/resist listed as a PVP concern?

    Sub Nuc is required to kill targets in PVP that receive ANY shield heals/resist because shield heals/resistances have gotten out of control.

    A team full of Tacs will have a lot of difficulty killing any target that is being healed by self and teammates.

    Since this is true, Sub Nuc is required to remove all of the buffs on the target in order to make them vulnerable. This lends to Sub Nuc being the most over-powered single skill in PVP...

    If shield heals/resist weren't so insane, then we could see Sub Nuc changed to be more similar to the Nerfed "Sub Nuc," Doff... it's ridiculous to have any skill remove every single buff including teams on a target, yet it's required since shield heals/resist are so insane.

    Note: there are other ways to take down targets with high shield resist/regen, i.e. power drain, but Sub Nuc is still by far the most effective and over-powered way to do it.

    Sub Nuc cannot be changed unless this issue is looked at in total.

    Sub nuc in theory is the most OP captain skill in game for the simply fact that its the only ability that can basically pwn any other ability/captain ability.

    Fire off a SNB versus an alpha, the alpha disappears. Fire an alpha vs a subnuke, the target quickly snb's the alpha off anyway :p

    its simple logicl. I always found it a rather cheap ability, because if you know how to use it its better then anything else. However its also a required and very important asset to a premade vs premade so yeah...

    But on the other hand it has one weakness, play the waiting game and the sci gets too impatient and will fire the snb off at some point, and simply save your precious buffs for AFTER you are nuked ;)
    MT - Sad Pandas
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    02. Item: Tachyon Mines
    Issue: Seem to be too powerful at stripping shields and hampering shield repair / regen
    Status: Under review

    Naz, when you have a chance perhaps you could include this post from Bort?


    I haven't gone through and calculated the damage potential, but this post by Eradicator might also be relevant to the issue.

    naz4 wrote: »
    07. Ability: Boarding Party
    Issue: Too easily countered by tac teams and easily shot down
    Status: To be advised by Cryptic

    I think it's necessary to include the current interaction of this power with the DOFFs available that can put every ability on a ship on exceedingly long cooldowns.

    I'm not fully aware how to recreate this, it most likely sounds like an exploit.


    I also think these items should be on the list.



    21. Ability: Temporal Inversion
    Issue:
    See quoted text.
    hurleybird wrote:
    The only counter to Temporal Inversion is more Temporal Inversion. The effect is massively debilitating to your entire [opponent's] team, and massively buffs the user. It's the single biggest I-win button in the game. Unless there's a massive mismatch, the team using Temporal Inversion will always win.



    22. Ability: Graviton Pulse Generator
    Issue:
    See quoted text.
    hurleybird wrote:
    Technically GPG is countered by engineering team, the problem is that GPG is an AOE that can hit every single member on your team. If you want to take four or five engineering teams to reliably clear it you'll do so at the expense of severely weakening your team. If you don't have enough copies to reliably clear it from your entire team, the enemy can focus and kill whomever you weren't able to clear. The opportunity cost is one console slot to use GPG, and five copies of engineering team to clear it, which is far out of line.
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Abilities: Torpedo HY/Spread, Beam Overload

    Issue: Recent changes (removal of torpedo global cooldown, introduction of energy drain resists for non-engineers via doffs) have introduced ways to use the damage potential that comes from "preloading" a HY/TS/BO, then waiting 15s, loading a second one and then firing both of them in rapid succession (occasionally even three, by firing slightly before the next 15s pass and the first comes off cooldown again). This was not possible in the original S1.2 implementation because of global cooldowns and massive power drain. Is this new damage potential working as intended?
    1042856
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    is it intentional that torp spread has 100% accuracy? and since torp spread 1 fires 4 torps, and high yield 1 fires 2 torps, isnt spread 1 is dealing more damage then HY1?


    i wouldn't count on any attention here until they sort out that cristiline entity business.
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