The Galaxy should be a better battleship, it fought in the Dominion War, not in a support role but as a front-line battleship at all major battles.
I feel I should point out that in the Dominion War the Federation was more or less proven to be lacking as far as war capabilities went. Of course they put their legions of cruisers in the front lines, they had nothing else. To be fair until the Dominion showed up the Federation fleet of cruisers and science ships had been enough, but the Dominion and the prototype Defiant showed that dedicated warships were needed.
The Dominion, unlike the RSE or Klingon Empire has basically limitless resources on their side of the wormhole, so they are able to make fleets of apparently resource inefficient dedicated combat ships, which as it turned are key when you're actually fighting a war. Go figure!
Well, all that canon babble makes my head hurt. Simple numbers.
Full Fleet Galaxy-R with Venture skin = 4000 Zen (3500 ZEN account wide, +500 each toon)
Oddysey cruiser = 2500 ZEN (account wide)
As long, as Venture-R is the MOST EXPENSIVE, cruiser Cryptic offers. It should have stats and performance that are on par with other "cheaper" choices.
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I'm not gonna read this whole thing, but I just want to say since when did the galaxy have heaps of offensive power. The Galaxy class starship was an exploratory vessel, it was a family ship with school and what not. It was never shown to have massive offensive power, it got defeated by a single BoP which shot a few torps through it's shields.
They made it a big hulk of a thing because that's what it is, it's a support. It's not meant to be a powerhouse, it's just meant to be hard to take down. I think it's fine.
First off, why on Earth does an Excelsior and Fleet Excelsior (4 Tactical Console Slots btw and 1 Lieutenant Commander Console) complete outpower a Galaxy when the Galaxy is a newer and more tactically powerful ship!
During the course of Star Trek the Next Generation several Rear Admiral or higher rank officers (i.e. Flag Officers) were either transported on or commanders of Excelsior Class Starships. All this during a time when the Galaxy Class Starship was supposedly the Cutting Edge in Starship technology for the Federation. This meant that the Excelsior was the definitive ship used by Flag Officers, and thus the Flagship of choice. The only reason we hear the Enterprise-D being referred to as a Flagship is not because it is commanded by a Flag Officer, but rather because it is the face of the Federation.
That said, as William T. Riker said in "All Good Things" the one good thing about being an Admiral, is that you get to pick your ship. These Admirals flying around in a ship that was nearly a century old during Deep Space Nine says something... they constantly refitted the thing with upgraded weapons, armor, engines, and computer networks to keep it up to par with the current threats in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant.
Oh and by the way... according to Memory Alpha, the specs of the Excelsior still exist in the 31st Century. That is approximately 721 years after the ship first rolled out of drydock. If the specs alone last that long, imagine how long the ship itself can last in actual commissioned service.
Additionally, the Excelsior itself was a ship designed in an era in which the Federation was constantly on the verge of War with either the Klingons or the Romulans. In fact the Movie in which the Excelsior makes it's biggest cinematic presence is one in which a war is very nearly averted thanks to a ship the Klingons describe as a Battle Cruiser (U.S.S. Enterprise-A), and the U.S.S. Excelsior itself.
The Galaxy Class by comparison is a ship that is described off camera as a ship of exploration, not a Battle Cruiser. In fact it wasn't really outfitted for war until Admiral Riker refitted it with a third Pylon and a devastating Phaser Lance that could punch a hole through a Borg Cube and anything weaker than that it just destroys without blinking.
Simply put, the Galaxy Class is not geared for War. It is geared for being the Starship equivalent to an Armed Luxury Cruise Liner. As far as Battle Cruisers and the Enterprise go, we are looking at primarily the Enterprise NX-01, the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 (and it's refit), the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-A, the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-B, arguably the C, and the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-E. The Odyssey variant is probably going to end up being yet another luxury cruise liner, and given the sheer enormity of it (bigger than Earth Space Dock) the J is also likely going to be another Luxury Cruise Liner.
Enterprise D, in the alter timeline when the C failed to show up in Narendra III was not a ship of peace. It was "Warship Enterprise" with no kids or school onboard. The Galaxy was built in the time of war then.
The ship is built for combat too.
The Excelsiors were not only used due to their life(which by far has proved for any of the federation cruisers) - but because it required less resources to be refit, unlike the Galaxy which being vast did need a good amount of resources to be maintained during comissioned periods, let alone refits.
That above doesn't mean the Galaxy is weak. It definitely is strong and battle worthy.
Despite that, re-fits for the Galaxy DID come out, either in form of Venture or however. Those classes are technically the Galaxy, which continue later on to future centuries.
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During the course of Star Trek the Next Generation several Rear Admiral or higher rank officers (i.e. Flag Officers) were either transported on or commanders of Excelsior Class Starships. All this during a time when the Galaxy Class Starship was supposedly the Cutting Edge in Starship technology for the Federation. This meant that the Excelsior was the definitive ship used by Flag Officers, and thus the Flagship of choice. The only reason we hear the Enterprise-D being referred to as a Flagship is not because it is commanded by a Flag Officer, but rather because it is the face of the Federation.
That said, as William T. Riker said in "All Good Things" the one good thing about being an Admiral, is that you get to pick your ship. These Admirals flying around in a ship that was nearly a century old during Deep Space Nine says something... they constantly refitted the thing with upgraded weapons, armor, engines, and computer networks to keep it up to par with the current threats in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant.
Oh and by the way... according to Memory Alpha, the specs of the Excelsior still exist in the 31st Century. That is approximately 721 years after the ship first rolled out of drydock. If the specs alone last that long, imagine how long the ship itself can last in actual commissioned service.
Additionally, the Excelsior itself was a ship designed in an era in which the Federation was constantly on the verge of War with either the Klingons or the Romulans. In fact the Movie in which the Excelsior makes it's biggest cinematic presence is one in which a war is very nearly averted thanks to a ship the Klingons describe as a Battle Cruiser (U.S.S. Enterprise-A), and the U.S.S. Excelsior itself.
The Galaxy Class by comparison is a ship that is described off camera as a ship of exploration, not a Battle Cruiser. In fact it wasn't really outfitted for war until Admiral Riker refitted it with a third Pylon and a devastating Phaser Lance that could punch a hole through a Borg Cube and anything weaker than that it just destroys without blinking.
Simply put, the Galaxy Class is not geared for War. It is geared for being the Starship equivalent to an Armed Luxury Cruise Liner. As far as Battle Cruisers and the Enterprise go, we are looking at primarily the Enterprise NX-01, the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 (and it's refit), the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-A, the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-B, arguably the C, and the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-E. The Odyssey variant is probably going to end up being yet another luxury cruise liner, and given the sheer enormity of it (bigger than Earth Space Dock) the J is also likely going to be another Luxury Cruise Liner.
Except Rick Sternbach, when he drew up the deck plans and master systems display for the Enterprise-E, had referenced her as an "explorer" (type 2) like the Enterprise-D. It would seem mighty odd that Starfleet would build a huge ship, fill it with a thousand odd people, send it into the deepest reaches of space, and then not expect it to encounter dangers that might just destroy it outright.
The Enterprise-D might have got her "TRIBBLE handed" to her in the TV show, however that was mostly because she was often fighting opponents who were vastly superior to her, like you'd expect to find. But guess what, so did the Enterprise-E; the Son'a and the Remans certainly hammered her, yet no one accuses that ship of being a Luxury Cruise Liner.
I'm not gonna read this whole thing, but I just want to say since when did the galaxy have heaps of offensive power. The Galaxy class starship was an exploratory vessel, it was a family ship with school and what not. It was never shown to have massive offensive power, it got defeated by a single BoP which shot a few torps through it's shields.
They made it a big hulk of a thing because that's what it is, it's a support. It's not meant to be a powerhouse, it's just meant to be hard to take down. I think it's fine.
Your right, it wasn't a power house. It was a magic school bus with fire power! LOTS OF IT!
During the course of Star Trek the Next Generation several Rear Admiral or higher rank officers (i.e. Flag Officers) were either transported on or commanders of Excelsior Class Starships. All this during a time when the Galaxy Class Starship was supposedly the Cutting Edge in Starship technology for the Federation. This meant that the Excelsior was the definitive ship used by Flag Officers, and thus the Flagship of choice. The only reason we hear the Enterprise-D being referred to as a Flagship is not because it is commanded by a Flag Officer, but rather because it is the face of the Federation.
The reason why Excelsiors transported Admirals to important meetings was, they were always close to home.
Riker's former CO in "Tin Man" was in command of the Hood, an Excelsior class ship and said precisely that.
The Excelsiors were relegated to patrol and transport duties by that point.
Besides, if the Excelsior class was the superior combat ship, why did Jellico in "Chain of Command" transfer OFF an Excelsior to the Flagship of the Federation?
It was specifically established in Voy:"Equinox" that command falls to the ship with tactial superiority.
That that was the Galaxy class.
Same applied with the Federation fleet that blockaded the Romulans in "Redemption", which also contained the Hood.
Oh and by the way... according to Memory Alpha, the specs of the Excelsior still exist in the 31st Century. That is approximately 721 years after the ship first rolled out of drydock. If the specs alone last that long, imagine how long the ship itself can last in actual commissioned service.
Oh and by the way...the database you speak of also includes the Mir space station.
That was one helluva mighty battleship in the 20th century.
Additionally, the Excelsior itself was a ship designed in an era in which the Federation was constantly on the verge of War with either the Klingons or the Romulans. In fact the Movie in which the Excelsior makes it's biggest cinematic presence is one in which a war is very nearly averted thanks to a ship the Klingons describe as a Battle Cruiser (U.S.S. Enterprise-A), and the U.S.S. Excelsior itself.
How about you watch the actual movies before you post stuff like this?
The Excelsior was NOT referred to as a battlecruiser in Star Trek 6.
The Klingons in Star Trek 3 referred to the Enterprise (not the Excelsior) as a "Federation Battlecruiser", which makes perfect sense.
She was the counterpart to their K't'inga class battlecruiser so they applied their own terminology to it.
It's not different from the western allied of World War 2 referring to the Panther medium tank as a heavy tank because from their perspective it actually was a heavy tank.
The Galaxy Class by comparison is a ship that is described off camera as a ship of exploration, not a Battle Cruiser. In fact it wasn't really outfitted for war until Admiral Riker refitted it with a third Pylon and a devastating Phaser Lance that could punch a hole through a Borg Cube and anything weaker than that it just destroys without blinking.
The Enterprise never used her lance to fire through a Borg cube, so what kind of a nonsense argument is this supposed to be?
Speaking of Borg, the first thing the Borg Cube at Wolf 359 does is blow away an Excelsior, taking away half her saucer with a single shot.
That's laughable compared to the amount of damage the Enterprise-D takes from the same ship.
Simply put, the Galaxy Class is not geared for War. It is geared for being the Starship equivalent to an Armed Luxury Cruise Liner. As far as Battle Cruisers and the Enterprise go, we are looking at primarily the Enterprise NX-01, the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 (and it's refit), the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-A, the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-B, arguably the C, and the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-E. The Odyssey variant is probably going to end up being yet another luxury cruise liner, and given the sheer enormity of it (bigger than Earth Space Dock) the J is also likely going to be another Luxury Cruise Liner.
Yeah, that's certainly why the Enterprise-D was referred to as supremely armed in "The Enemy", because it's such a terrible ship.:rolleyes:
Oh, for gods sake: Galaxy was the biggest, most advanced, most heavily armed and protected ship of Starfleet. It was designed and build to be this way - the symbol of Federation "out there". Heck, it was advanced enough to grow self-conscious and make kids. Galaxy, until Sovereign was build, was the only ship Starfleet had that could take on the Borg Cube and actually survive a prolonged battle. while still inflicting at least some damage to the Cube. Even Defiant was not strong enough to do this while being in multiship battle when Cube attention and firepower were divided.
I can live with the fact that T4 Galaxy is weak. In the pre-F2P STO the ship tech progress was more or less correct when compared to the canon (at least among cruisers) with Galaxy being T3 and Sovereign being T4. They got it also right with Odyssey being T5 as it was another step up from Sovereign.
But with other lockbox/C-Store ships they srewed this royaly. Excelsior was "blow me up left and right" ship both from TNG and DS9. Ambassador was more or less never seen but should be still inferior from Galaxy as it was earlier design.
Peaceful times are not an excuse for Excelsior being more offensive. Galaxy has saw it's share of wars and was designed in times or shortly after the war with Cardassians and various skirmishes with other races we have heard about in the series.
We need to live with this as those ships needs to be better to sell. BUT Galaxy refits/retrofits/whatever can be seen as "Dominion War upgrades" and the Venture is clearly a 2400 upgrade that should put Galaxy above the Exclesior and on pair or close to the Sovereign refits and tactical Odyssey. After all those Galaxies are also friggin C-Store ships.
Not to mention that Galaxy is more canonical then Excelsior and profit from selling more tactical Galaxy should be bigger the from selling Excelsiors.
The whole politic around Galaxy is not very understandable for me. Around Sovereign too as they needed so much time to bring newest Federation assault cruiser, with XXV century refit, to the levels of not refited 70-years old Excelsior. To the level, not above it.
Cryptic already has Galaxy-class skin, even refited skin. Why they are not bringing the Galaxy stats up to the level where those should be is beyond me. Cryptic clearly does not want to earn money or what?
Why can't Cryptic release the "Alternate Galaxy" from "Yesturday's Enterprise" along with the C-Store Ambassador. This vessel has no family presence or children and is a warship along with the bridge changes and new uniforms. I would be happy having a version of the Galaxy Class which was more tactically based.
Cryptic, make it happen. First Cruiser with a Commander Tactical Slot and Four Tactical Console slots. That would make me a very happy guy!
Oh, for gods sake: Galaxy was the biggest, most advanced, most heavily armed and protected ship of Starfleet. It was designed and build to be this way - the symbol of Federation "out there". Heck, it was advanced enough to grow self-conscious and make kids. Galaxy, until Sovereign was build, was the only ship Starfleet had that could take on the Borg Cube and actually survive a prolonged battle. while still inflicting at least some damage to the Cube. Even Defiant was not strong enough to do this while being in multiship battle when Cube attention and firepower were divided.
I can live with the fact that T4 Galaxy is weak. In the pre-F2P STO the ship tech progress was more or less correct when compared to the canon (at least among cruisers) with Galaxy being T3 and Sovereign being T4. They got it also right with Odyssey being T5 as it was another step up from Sovereign.
But with other lockbox/C-Store ships they srewed this royaly. Excelsior was "blow me up left and right" ship both from TNG and DS9. Ambassador was more or less never seen but should be still inferior from Galaxy as it was earlier design.
Peaceful times are not an excuse for Excelsior being more offensive. Galaxy has saw it's share of wars and was designed in times or shortly after the war with Cardassians and various skirmishes with other races we have heard about in the series.
We need to live with this as those ships needs to be better to sell. BUT Galaxy refits/retrofits/whatever can be seen as "Dominion War upgrades" and the Venture is clearly a 2400 upgrade that should put Galaxy above the Exclesior and on pair or close to the Sovereign refits and tactical Odyssey. After all those Galaxies are also friggin C-Store ships.
Not to mention that Galaxy is more canonical then Excelsior and profit from selling more tactical Galaxy should be bigger the from selling Excelsiors.
The whole politic around Galaxy is not very understandable for me. Around Sovereign too as they needed so much time to bring newest Federation assault cruiser, with XXV century refit, to the levels of not refited 70-years old Excelsior. To the level, not above it.
Cryptic already has Galaxy-class skin, even refited skin. Why they are not bringing the Galaxy stats up to the level where those should be is beyond me. Cryptic clearly does not want to earn money or what?
I would agree. Like I referenced in the previous page, the Galaxy-class is a replacement to Ambassadors, which are a replacement to Excelsiors. A 100+ year old ship shouldn't be a better tanker than a newer ship, about twice the mass (give or take a couple thousand metric tons), designed with the ability to upgrade in mind (TNG:TM), and designed from the start with improved defenses, safeties, weapons, etc. over the older Ambassadors and Excelsiors.
I reference BoBW as an example. Excelsiors were taken out in two seconds by that Cutting Beam, where the Galaxy-class Enterprise-D had the same treatment, but was still operable.
Excelsior class ships look great. I don't deny that, they're one of the better looking ships in Star Trek. But they shouldn't be used in 2413. A hundred and thirty-year old ship should not be outperforming a ship made half a century ago.
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I would agree. Like I referenced in the previous page, the Galaxy-class is a replacement to Ambassadors, which are a replacement to Excelsiors. A 100+ year old ship shouldn't be a better tanker than a newer ship, about twice the mass (give or take a couple thousand metric tons), designed with the ability to upgrade in mind (TNG:TM), and designed from the start with improved defenses, safeties, weapons, etc. over the older Ambassadors and Excelsiors.
I reference BoBW as an example. Excelsiors were taken out in two seconds by that Cutting Beam, where the Galaxy-class Enterprise-D had the same treatment, but was still operable.
Excelsior class ships look great. I don't deny that, they're one of the better looking ships in Star Trek. But they shouldn't be used in 2413. A hundred and thirty-year old ship should not be outperforming a ship made half a century ago.
First off, it's apples and oranges comparing the performance of the Enterprise during the initial encounter with the Borg with the Battle of Wolf 359. In the initial encounter, the Borg were interested in dissection and analysis, and used the beam to surgically remove parts of an immobile Enterprise for study. In Wolf 359, they simply wanted to eliminate a large number of ships that were in their way, and so they had no reason to hold back or do anything but destroy.
Second off. note that -no- class of ship in Wolf 359 fared any better than the Excelsior cited, and that included Galaxy-class ships (when Starfleet pulls in every ship in the area and the Galaxy-class is the premier class of that time, there would have been at least one in that fleet, and probably more). It was only due to the Borg not considering the Enterprise worth the effort to destroy out of hand that the ship survived (and the quality of its crew).
Third, the Galaxy class were built as Explorer ships, different from the classes that had come before because the Federation was finally at peace with its neighbors. It was designed from the start for long-term habitation away from bases (this was very plainly stated in every source of the ship) more than tactical abilities, and so it had a different emphasis than the Excelsior or Ambassadors that came before it. That doesn't mean it was lacking in ability to defend itself (quite the opposite), but that combat ability was not a primary consideration when the ship was designed (unlike the previous two classes). Durability, reliability, and safety were. After the Borg appeared, and wars erupted with the Empire and Dominion despite Starfleet's policies of negotiation, follow-on classes like the Sovereign returned to tactical considerations as an important aspect of ship design.
Lastly, saying it 'isn't right' that an older ship is more capable than a newer one is simple bais. The Iowa-class Battleships prove this can be the case in the real world, and it is clear that a brand new ship constructed in the form of an older class but with state-of-the-art systems would still be a state-of-the-art ship. Add to that a unique system -ahead- of what is state-of-the-art, and it is very reasonable that the ship would be better in some areas than any comparable 'modern' ship (though not in all others...the crew of an Excelsior does not have the endurance away from base that the Galaxy crew has. In fact, only the Odyssey equals the ability of the Galaxy for long-duration mission capability).
I can see where the Venture skin debate has a point, but as it is only a re-skin of an existing ship and not a ship itself, it's no different than the other z-store reskin options: you are paying for the option to have your ship depict a limited-production class that was a 'reengineering' of an older class with current engineering processes and new structures rather than the old ones (i.e. Venture class ships are Starfleet Engineering Corps answer to producing a replacement for the Galaxy class that performs identically but with systems in use on other new classes to duplicate older design systems). Thus, while the Venture skin may make the ship look like a hyper-modern version of the Galaxy class, it is still an Exploration Cruiser and not a new class of ship. You are paying for appearance alone, and know that when you buy it. Thus, trying to say it should be better because people wanted to put additional optional money to spruce up the outside of their ship and make it look shiny is debateable logic.
The reason why Excelsiors transported Admirals to important meetings was, they were always close to home.
Riker's former CO in "Tin Man" was in command of the Hood, an Excelsior class ship and said precisely that.
The Excelsiors were relegated to patrol and transport duties by that point.
Besides, if the Excelsior class was the superior combat ship, why did Jellico in "Chain of Command" transfer OFF an Excelsior to the Flagship of the Federation?
It was specifically established in Voy:"Equinox" that command falls to the ship with tactial superiority.
That that was the Galaxy class.
Same applied with the Federation fleet that blockaded the Romulans in "Redemption", which also contained the Hood.
The word "Flagship" when used in it's literal definition refers to a ship under the direct command of a Commodore (Rear Admiral of either class), Vice Admiral, Admiral, or Fleet Admiral. The term in it's colloquial meaning as it is often used in relation to the various Enterprises in Star Trek refers to the most advanced ship in Starfleet at any given time, which is usually the furthest from home and the one that is in the most danger at any given time. You do not put an Admiral of any rank on a ship that is regularly going to be facing off against threats like the Borg, Klingon Armada, or Romulan Military. The Admiral rank denotes a certain level of indispensability. In otherwords, Captain Jean Luc Picard was expendable.
Oh and by the way...the database you speak of also includes the Mir space station.
That was one helluva mighty battleship in the 20th century.
Er... fair point. confounding both of those is the fact that said database was compiled by time travelers.
How about you watch the actual movies before you post stuff like this?
The Excelsior was NOT referred to as a battlecruiser in Star Trek 6.
The Klingons in Star Trek 3 referred to the Enterprise (not the Excelsior) as a "Federation Battlecruiser", which makes perfect sense.
She was the counterpart to their K't'inga class battlecruiser so they applied their own terminology to it.
It's not different from the western allied of World War 2 referring to the Panther medium tank as a heavy tank because from their perspective it actually was a heavy tank.
How about you actually read what I said. What I said was that the Enterprise which was described by the Klingons as a battle cruiser AND the Excelsior which the Klingons made no comment as to the designation of type of vessel it was, were BOTH present at the final Confrontation of Star Trek 6. So while one was defined by the Klingons as a battle cruiser, the other may or may not have been. However the Constitution Class and the Excelsior Class were both designed in a period during which Starfleet had use for ships designed explicitly for War.
The Constitution Class despite being classified as a Cruiser class vessel is exceedingly Spartan as far as crew accommodations go. In fact it is fairly rare that you see long term Civilian passengers on board the Constitution Class vessels. Similarly, onboard the Excelsior Class it is likewise extremely rare for long term civilian passengers to be present. In fact most of the crew onboard the U.S.S. Excelsior lived in Barrack style bunkbeds (as was seen in a Voyager episode). So in a way the excelsior was even more spartan than the Constitution Class. Of course in the case of the U.S.S. Excelsior that could be chocked up to additional space being needed for the excessive hull reinforcement needed to make the Transwarp Drive feasible in the first place. But still.
The Enterprise never used her lance to fire through a Borg cube, so what kind of a nonsense argument is this supposed to be?
It is called an example. The Phaser Lance shot through Klingon Battle Cruisers complete with fully operational shields just like a normal phaser array would shoot through any ship if it had no shields at all whatsoever. My supposition was based on the assumption that such a devastating weapon could shoot through an unprepared borg cube like it is nothing. And given that most borg cubes need to adapt before they can put up a reliable resistance against conventional weaponry a single shot from a weapon that can puncture normal ships like they are nothing might catch the borg off guard, even if just for that single instant that it takes to kill the ship pre-emptively.
Speaking of Borg, the first thing the Borg Cube at Wolf 359 does is blow away an Excelsior, taking away half her saucer with a single shot.
That's laughable compared to the amount of damage the Enterprise-D takes from the same ship.
Okay, here's the thing. The Enterprise-D would be roughly the equivalent of a Fleet version of the Exploration Class Cruiser. That means it has not only the highest hull rating in the game, but also one of the best shield ratings as far as cruisers go. Add to the fact that it can effectively be outfitted with more armor emplacements than any other ship in starfleet, and the fact that the crew has prior experience before Wolf 359 facing off against the borg so they kind of know what to expect and what not to expect. Plus the mindset of the Federation prior to Wolf 359 was to try to negotiate with their enemies for a peaceful conclusion to their conflict. The Borg have no use for that kind of tactic, they will shoot first and ask no questions later assuming that they feel your ship holds no value to them in terms of meaningful assimilation. They probably got a great deal of data about starfleet when they first encountered the Enterprise, and based on that data determined which ships were priority targets for termination, and which ships would serve as the best targets for assimilation and went from there.
Yeah, that's certainly why the Enterprise-D was referred to as supremely armed in "The Enemy", because it's such a terrible ship.:rolleyes:
Before I start off with a lengthly discussion whilst trying to get back to the point about Galaxy-class ships in this game are unbalanced, let me colour-code the various parts of your post. It's riddled with inaccuracies and needs to be addressed.
First off, it's apples and oranges comparing the performance of the Enterprise during the initial encounter with the Borg with the Battle of Wolf 359. In the initial encounter, the Borg were interested in dissection and analysis, and used the beam to surgically remove parts of an immobile Enterprise for study. In Wolf 359, they simply wanted to eliminate a large number of ships that were in their way, and so they had no reason to hold back or do anything but destroy.
First off. I didn't reference TNG: "Q Who?", the only episode I referenced was TNG: "Best of Both Worlds" (Parts I and II, to be precise). You're right, it is apples and oranges, which is why I just focused on the events in that episode alone, and the battle scenes that took place at Wolf 359 in DS9: "Emissary".
Second off. note that -no- class of ship in Wolf 359 fared any better than the Excelsior cited, and that included Galaxy-class ships (when Starfleet pulls in every ship in the area and the Galaxy-class is the premier class of that time, there would have been at least one in that fleet, and probably more). It was only due to the Borg not considering the Enterprise worth the effort to destroy out of hand that the ship survived (and the quality of its crew).
You can't assume there were Galaxy-class ships there, unless you have visual proof from the episode that a member of that class was present. Neither in the graveyard scene, nor the actual battle in DS9: "Emissary" does it show a Galaxy-class ship there. It did show the Nebula-class present, which is a possible reason why you might have mistook a Nebula-class nacelle in the graveyard as from a Galaxy-class, and not a Nebula-class.
Also, in the second half of "Best of Both Worlds", once Data was hacking Locutus to obtain the shutdown command, the Borg cube designated the Enterprise as a threat. The Enterprise-D had already sustained some damage, but it still took about two to three minutes for the shields to be breached and hull breaches in the Engineering section to become critical. And still, the Enterprise-D was capable of ramming the Cube, as Riker tried to do before holding back at the last second. Meanwhile, the Wolf 359 battle depicted in DS9: "Emissary" showed a cutting beam poking a sizeable hole in the saucer of an Excelsior in about two seconds of firing.
I'd say, with the Cube multitasking in the Wolf 359 battle compared to just the Enterprise-D versus the Cube in the end of "Best of Both Worlds", I'd say, with a fair certainty, the Galaxy-class fared better.
Lastly, saying it 'isn't right' that an older ship is more capable than a newer one is simple bais. The Iowa-class Battleships prove this can be the case in the real world, and it is clear that a brand new ship constructed in the form of an older class but with state-of-the-art systems would still be a state-of-the-art ship. Add to that a unique system -ahead- of what is state-of-the-art, and it is very reasonable that the ship would be better in some areas than any comparable 'modern' ship (though not in all others...the crew of an Excelsior does not have the endurance away from base that the Galaxy crew has. In fact, only the Odyssey equals the ability of the Galaxy for long-duration mission capability).
I just look at the "facts". You don't see Constiution-class starships running around in the Dominion War, or even in TNG or DS9 episodes. The design is simply too old. Same principle applies with the Excelsior. By 2413, the design is 130 years old. It should not be outperforming a ship that is 70 years newer, and with twice the mass, a much bigger hull and powerplant, and a time-tested and evolved design.
Also, I should bring this up; you reference a real-life example of an older class of sea ship performing equally as well as newer ships. First, you did bring up comparing apples and oranges, which applies here. Second, some internet reading taught me that the Iowa-class was decommissioned in 2012, since the ships are simply too old. Sorry to turn your argument against you, but the facts support decommissioning older ships from active duty simply because they are too old, and I quote, "only to be retired after the collapse of the Soviet Union on the grounds that they were too expensive to maintain."
Going back to the main topic. The Galaxy-class ships should still be in service as a supportive cruiser, and not be bested by a design that is over 130 years old by the time of this game. It isn't realistic, it isn't fair to Galaxy-class fans, and it doesn't help the continuity that this game is trying to establish.
Don't get me wrong. I like the Excelsior, both in design and in stats, and I plan to get one in the next ship sale. But it looks weird that a ship design that is, by all means outdated, can outperform a ship class with greater capabilities and was, at one point, the flagship of the Federation Starfleet.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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I've detailed my beef so to speak in a few other threads in regards to the Galaxy, but I certainly do agree with the OP that the Galaxy, and likewise the Galaxy-X feel like the red headed stepchild. I personally prefer the X over the Galaxy-R and use it quite often. It never ceases to amaze me though, that when I take it into PVP just how many people go straight for you. It's as if they know that the Galaxy is lacking and wont be able to thwart the oncoming attacks.
Really the Galaxy-R and the Galaxy-X are both VA level vessels, but are closer to a RA ship than the VA cruisers as far as stats go. The Oddy's have 3K more hull than the Galaxy's and a full 1.5K crew. For ships that should be pretty evenly matched, that's a pretty big difference.
I'm just reminded of the old Galaxy-X and how it was at release. People used to call it the Tier 4.5 ship. It sucked worse than a Tier 5 ship, but was just a bit better than your average Tier 4 ship. It seems now it's the 5.5 ship. Not really RA, but not really VA either.
its hilarious to watch this defense of the excelsior, even in the 2360s its antiquated, its not even using phaser arrays. since arrays had been around for at least 30 years by then, and no tng era excelsior had been uprated with them, it just proves that starfleet didn't feel it was worth it to go through with such an overhawl, and was happy with them as they were, doing all the inglorious thing they needed ships for inside the federation.
and admirals rode around in them because decades earlier that was the ship they were captains of. so they basicly got to keep it when they needed to leave the office. its not like a federation admiral would be on a front line and need to be in command of the most powerful ship, they didn't lead fleets into battle. every admiral having a galaxy class is a silly thing that would not exist in the federation.
they could have easily fabricated a phaser ring to place on the excelsior model to cover the turret hardpoints, but they never bothered. even when they made the cgi models they didn't bother! you can lament that all you want, but its on screen canon that they didn't bother bringing the excelsior up to even 2330s level spec. the in game excelsior and galaxy should swap station setups, it would make more sense.
we only saw them in later battles in DS9 because there was such a surplus of them. they did have some combat worth, it was comparable to a defiant class in battle. a modern starfleet ship could match all the firepower they could put on an ancient excelsior hull on a ship 16 times smaller.
any excelsior that survived the domionion war would not have been kept around much longer. everything from the soverign class to the saber class was in some way a direct replacement for the excelsior and for the role it had served for so long. the ship being in STO, and being an end game ship is an hilarious joke.
I've detailed my beef so to speak in a few other threads in regards to the Galaxy, but I certainly do agree with the OP that the Galaxy, and likewise the Galaxy-X feel like the red headed stepchild. I personally prefer the X over the Galaxy-R and use it quite often. It never ceases to amaze me though, that when I take it into PVP just how many people go straight for you. It's as if they know that the Galaxy is lacking and wont be able to thwart the oncoming attacks.
Really the Galaxy-R and the Galaxy-X are both VA level vessels, but are closer to a RA ship than the VA cruisers as far as stats go. The Oddy's have 3K more hull than the Galaxy's and a full 1.5K crew. For ships that should be pretty evenly matched, that's a pretty big difference.
I'm just reminded of the old Galaxy-X and how it was at release. People used to call it the Tier 4.5 ship. It sucked worse than a Tier 5 ship, but was just a bit better than your average Tier 4 ship. It seems now it's the 5.5 ship. Not really RA, but not really VA either.
Funny. A lot of us here happen to be the type to go after such redheads. :P
And they can try to go after me in my Galaxy-X. I've had about a year to get familiar with the old girl, and we're almost completely in synch. People have tried, and unless most of the 5-man team is targeting me, I'm still alive and well, and the ADHD escort pilots lose interest. (No offense to people with ADHD)
And yeah I can agree with you. The Galaxy-X isn't that strong of a ship. However, I'd take it over that Big-Fat-Odyssey that Starfleet calls a flagship class.
No, the Excelsior may be Overpowered in this game, but that shouldn't affect the look of the ship. The Excelsior's a great looking ship. It's the kitbashes that look terrible.
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I have come to the conclusion that Cryptic are not fans of The Next Generation because at every turn they have basically placated the Galaxy Class, even the Fleet Version is appalling compared to the ludicrous upgrades that the Defiant gets (5 Tactical Console Slots... Really!?)...
It's actually very simple. If you watch DS9 you see lots and lots of situations with the defiant killing stuff. Blowing up all sorts of diverse enemies.
If you watch Next Generation you see lots of footage of the Enterprise staring at other starships, and they trade some insults, then everyone goes home. Then picard and crew go scan some anomaly or the holodeck malfunctions.
See the difference?
In STO, the defiant-class is made for blowing stuff up. The galaxy-class is made for sitting still and staring at stuff. Just like in the shows.
They should finally just give the Galaxy a Universal Lt. instead of its Lt. Science and an additional Tac Console.
Additionally a Heavy Beam Array and this ship still wouldn't be OP, but at least there would be a good reason to equip it with some weapons in the first place.
When i see how much utility the Vesta or even the Ambassador have, i start to belive Cryptics deliberately keeps the Galaxy Class as bad as possible just to punish everyone who likes it.
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- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I see the point in making the Galaxy a tech heavy ship. And if Teamplay was organized differently, namly heals and received damage taken into account in the score, then the galaxy would be fine as it is. However since the name of the game nowadays is dps, at least for the most part, it would be nice to have a more tactical focused variant of the Galaxy without resorting to the Galaxy X.
Maybe replace one technical or science console in favor of a technical console and make that Tech ensign a Tech Lieutenant and make the Tech-Lieutenant-Commander a Universal Lieutenant. That wouldn not only benefit the firepower of the ship but it would also enhance its flexibility. AND the firepower with 2 Tier I and 2 Tier II Boff abilities wouldnt go over the top. But it would allow some of the effects seen in the Show with torpedo spreads fired and Beam arrays attacking multiple targets or firing one powerfull beam like Beam overload.
It wouldnt be as powerfull as the Assault cruiser retrofit or even the fleet excelsior.
Maybe there is the possibility to release a more tactical focussed Galaxy Class like the Venture Variant seen in DS9 . It had the same Phasser arrays ontop of the nacelles like the Galaxy X had. Other than that it looked like a Regular Galaxy Class ship.
Granted it was only seen for a brief Moment on Screen but other ships in game werent shown in great lenght or detail either (Saber, Steamrunner, Centaur etc.)
Id gladly pay for a more powerfull Galaxy Class Variant.
What about if the Galaxy was simply the science version of the Excelsior? Swap the Lt. Cmdr. tactical for science and change the console to favour science.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to have all this talk of console abilities like the heavy beam array, or the universal Lt. slots, just trying to be realistic.
Edit:
Or even a tactical version of the Ambassador. Again, swapping science for tactical.
We also saw numerous Galaxy-class ships doing the same in various DS9 episodes....
Not really. You saw galaxies parked several times, but the only times I remember off hand them actually being shown in combat on DS9 are:
The episode where that galaxy goes on a rescue mission into the gamma quadrant, gets itself all blown up, and the only survivors are the runabouts.
'Sacrifice of Angels' had "galaxy wings" and while they did indeed shoot stuff, it was only the defiant that managed to fight its way through the dominion lines, and none of the galaxies.
Those are the only times I remember a galaxy seeing combat in DS9, if there's more I'm not recalling it off hand. And in both of those cases, at least, the big ole galaxies get shown up by much, much smaller ships.
Not really. You saw galaxies parked several times, but the only times I remember off hand them actually being shown in combat on DS9 are:
The episode where that galaxy goes on a rescue mission into the gamma quadrant, gets itself all blown up, and the only survivors are the runabouts.
'Sacrifice of Angels' had "galaxy wings" and while they did indeed shoot stuff, it was only the defiant that managed to fight its way through the dominion lines, and none of the galaxies.
Those are the only times I remember a galaxy seeing combat in DS9, if there's more I'm not recalling it off hand. And in both of those cases, at least, the big ole galaxies get shown up by much, much smaller ships.
There's the Battle of Chin'toka, where the USS Galaxy got shot at, and the Venture torpedoes a turret to death. And the final battle, where a "blank" Galaxy was seen firing, but at what, anyone can guess.
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There's the Battle of Chin'toka, where the USS Galaxy got shot at, and the Venture torpedoes a turret to death. And the final battle, where a "blank" Galaxy was seen firing, but at what, anyone can guess.
Wasn't it a Dominion Battleship? The Galaxy is a tactical powerhouse regardless of what universe she is in and there is nothing Cryptic can do to change that.
Wasn't it a Dominion Battleship? The Galaxy is a tactical powerhouse regardless of what universe she is in and there is nothing Cryptic can do to change that.
No thankfully they can't.
But they are just going to ignore it as they always do, which is a shame. I just can't understand their motivations, it wouldn't hurt them to give the Galaxy Class a bit more love.
This ship is one of the most popular Star Trek ships and yet they made it the most boring ship in the game, why?
I absolutely hate the Galaxy class BOFF & Console layout.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
The episode you refer to was 'The Jem' Hadar'. The ship in question was the (Galaxy-class) USS Odyssey. And I HATE the Odyssey being used as somekind of benchmark for the Galaxy class - NO ship woud have survived the Jem Hadar kamikaze run that took the Odyssey out. If anything, that episode showed how durable the Galaxy class is - the Odyssey's shields were stated, in dialouge, to be useless against the Jem Hadar's ship weapons, but it wasn't weaponsfire that took her out, it was having her main deflector rammed.
And, lest we forget, the original Defiant got all blown up. So did the Valiant. Yeah - that'll show those bigger ships.
Lest we not forget that the Enterprise-D was taken out by a few shots from an outdated Bird-of-Prey, too.
Still, the Galaxy Retrofit really does need some attention. I wouldn't begrudge it at least a Universal Lt. slot on its Fleet variant, honestly, as well as a bit of a hull boost for it and the Galaxy-X.
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I feel I should point out that in the Dominion War the Federation was more or less proven to be lacking as far as war capabilities went. Of course they put their legions of cruisers in the front lines, they had nothing else. To be fair until the Dominion showed up the Federation fleet of cruisers and science ships had been enough, but the Dominion and the prototype Defiant showed that dedicated warships were needed.
The Dominion, unlike the RSE or Klingon Empire has basically limitless resources on their side of the wormhole, so they are able to make fleets of apparently resource inefficient dedicated combat ships, which as it turned are key when you're actually fighting a war. Go figure!
Full Fleet Galaxy-R with Venture skin = 4000 Zen (3500 ZEN account wide, +500 each toon)
Oddysey cruiser = 2500 ZEN (account wide)
As long, as Venture-R is the MOST EXPENSIVE, cruiser Cryptic offers. It should have stats and performance that are on par with other "cheaper" choices.
They made it a big hulk of a thing because that's what it is, it's a support. It's not meant to be a powerhouse, it's just meant to be hard to take down. I think it's fine.
During the course of Star Trek the Next Generation several Rear Admiral or higher rank officers (i.e. Flag Officers) were either transported on or commanders of Excelsior Class Starships. All this during a time when the Galaxy Class Starship was supposedly the Cutting Edge in Starship technology for the Federation. This meant that the Excelsior was the definitive ship used by Flag Officers, and thus the Flagship of choice. The only reason we hear the Enterprise-D being referred to as a Flagship is not because it is commanded by a Flag Officer, but rather because it is the face of the Federation.
That said, as William T. Riker said in "All Good Things" the one good thing about being an Admiral, is that you get to pick your ship. These Admirals flying around in a ship that was nearly a century old during Deep Space Nine says something... they constantly refitted the thing with upgraded weapons, armor, engines, and computer networks to keep it up to par with the current threats in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant.
Oh and by the way... according to Memory Alpha, the specs of the Excelsior still exist in the 31st Century. That is approximately 721 years after the ship first rolled out of drydock. If the specs alone last that long, imagine how long the ship itself can last in actual commissioned service.
Additionally, the Excelsior itself was a ship designed in an era in which the Federation was constantly on the verge of War with either the Klingons or the Romulans. In fact the Movie in which the Excelsior makes it's biggest cinematic presence is one in which a war is very nearly averted thanks to a ship the Klingons describe as a Battle Cruiser (U.S.S. Enterprise-A), and the U.S.S. Excelsior itself.
The Galaxy Class by comparison is a ship that is described off camera as a ship of exploration, not a Battle Cruiser. In fact it wasn't really outfitted for war until Admiral Riker refitted it with a third Pylon and a devastating Phaser Lance that could punch a hole through a Borg Cube and anything weaker than that it just destroys without blinking.
Simply put, the Galaxy Class is not geared for War. It is geared for being the Starship equivalent to an Armed Luxury Cruise Liner. As far as Battle Cruisers and the Enterprise go, we are looking at primarily the Enterprise NX-01, the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 (and it's refit), the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-A, the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-B, arguably the C, and the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-E. The Odyssey variant is probably going to end up being yet another luxury cruise liner, and given the sheer enormity of it (bigger than Earth Space Dock) the J is also likely going to be another Luxury Cruise Liner.
The ship is built for combat too.
The Excelsiors were not only used due to their life(which by far has proved for any of the federation cruisers) - but because it required less resources to be refit, unlike the Galaxy which being vast did need a good amount of resources to be maintained during comissioned periods, let alone refits.
That above doesn't mean the Galaxy is weak. It definitely is strong and battle worthy.
Despite that, re-fits for the Galaxy DID come out, either in form of Venture or however. Those classes are technically the Galaxy, which continue later on to future centuries.
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Except Rick Sternbach, when he drew up the deck plans and master systems display for the Enterprise-E, had referenced her as an "explorer" (type 2) like the Enterprise-D. It would seem mighty odd that Starfleet would build a huge ship, fill it with a thousand odd people, send it into the deepest reaches of space, and then not expect it to encounter dangers that might just destroy it outright.
The Enterprise-D might have got her "TRIBBLE handed" to her in the TV show, however that was mostly because she was often fighting opponents who were vastly superior to her, like you'd expect to find. But guess what, so did the Enterprise-E; the Son'a and the Remans certainly hammered her, yet no one accuses that ship of being a Luxury Cruise Liner.
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Your right, it wasn't a power house. It was a magic school bus with fire power! LOTS OF IT!
The reason why Excelsiors transported Admirals to important meetings was, they were always close to home.
Riker's former CO in "Tin Man" was in command of the Hood, an Excelsior class ship and said precisely that.
The Excelsiors were relegated to patrol and transport duties by that point.
Besides, if the Excelsior class was the superior combat ship, why did Jellico in "Chain of Command" transfer OFF an Excelsior to the Flagship of the Federation?
It was specifically established in Voy:"Equinox" that command falls to the ship with tactial superiority.
That that was the Galaxy class.
Same applied with the Federation fleet that blockaded the Romulans in "Redemption", which also contained the Hood.
Oh and by the way...the database you speak of also includes the Mir space station.
That was one helluva mighty battleship in the 20th century.
How about you watch the actual movies before you post stuff like this?
The Excelsior was NOT referred to as a battlecruiser in Star Trek 6.
The Klingons in Star Trek 3 referred to the Enterprise (not the Excelsior) as a "Federation Battlecruiser", which makes perfect sense.
She was the counterpart to their K't'inga class battlecruiser so they applied their own terminology to it.
It's not different from the western allied of World War 2 referring to the Panther medium tank as a heavy tank because from their perspective it actually was a heavy tank.
The Enterprise never used her lance to fire through a Borg cube, so what kind of a nonsense argument is this supposed to be?
Speaking of Borg, the first thing the Borg Cube at Wolf 359 does is blow away an Excelsior, taking away half her saucer with a single shot.
That's laughable compared to the amount of damage the Enterprise-D takes from the same ship.
Yeah, that's certainly why the Enterprise-D was referred to as supremely armed in "The Enemy", because it's such a terrible ship.:rolleyes:
I can live with the fact that T4 Galaxy is weak. In the pre-F2P STO the ship tech progress was more or less correct when compared to the canon (at least among cruisers) with Galaxy being T3 and Sovereign being T4. They got it also right with Odyssey being T5 as it was another step up from Sovereign.
But with other lockbox/C-Store ships they srewed this royaly. Excelsior was "blow me up left and right" ship both from TNG and DS9. Ambassador was more or less never seen but should be still inferior from Galaxy as it was earlier design.
Peaceful times are not an excuse for Excelsior being more offensive. Galaxy has saw it's share of wars and was designed in times or shortly after the war with Cardassians and various skirmishes with other races we have heard about in the series.
We need to live with this as those ships needs to be better to sell. BUT Galaxy refits/retrofits/whatever can be seen as "Dominion War upgrades" and the Venture is clearly a 2400 upgrade that should put Galaxy above the Exclesior and on pair or close to the Sovereign refits and tactical Odyssey. After all those Galaxies are also friggin C-Store ships.
Not to mention that Galaxy is more canonical then Excelsior and profit from selling more tactical Galaxy should be bigger the from selling Excelsiors.
The whole politic around Galaxy is not very understandable for me. Around Sovereign too as they needed so much time to bring newest Federation assault cruiser, with XXV century refit, to the levels of not refited 70-years old Excelsior. To the level, not above it.
Cryptic already has Galaxy-class skin, even refited skin. Why they are not bringing the Galaxy stats up to the level where those should be is beyond me. Cryptic clearly does not want to earn money or what?
Cryptic, make it happen. First Cruiser with a Commander Tactical Slot and Four Tactical Console slots. That would make me a very happy guy!
I would agree. Like I referenced in the previous page, the Galaxy-class is a replacement to Ambassadors, which are a replacement to Excelsiors. A 100+ year old ship shouldn't be a better tanker than a newer ship, about twice the mass (give or take a couple thousand metric tons), designed with the ability to upgrade in mind (TNG:TM), and designed from the start with improved defenses, safeties, weapons, etc. over the older Ambassadors and Excelsiors.
I reference BoBW as an example. Excelsiors were taken out in two seconds by that Cutting Beam, where the Galaxy-class Enterprise-D had the same treatment, but was still operable.
Excelsior class ships look great. I don't deny that, they're one of the better looking ships in Star Trek. But they shouldn't be used in 2413. A hundred and thirty-year old ship should not be outperforming a ship made half a century ago.
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First off, it's apples and oranges comparing the performance of the Enterprise during the initial encounter with the Borg with the Battle of Wolf 359. In the initial encounter, the Borg were interested in dissection and analysis, and used the beam to surgically remove parts of an immobile Enterprise for study. In Wolf 359, they simply wanted to eliminate a large number of ships that were in their way, and so they had no reason to hold back or do anything but destroy.
Second off. note that -no- class of ship in Wolf 359 fared any better than the Excelsior cited, and that included Galaxy-class ships (when Starfleet pulls in every ship in the area and the Galaxy-class is the premier class of that time, there would have been at least one in that fleet, and probably more). It was only due to the Borg not considering the Enterprise worth the effort to destroy out of hand that the ship survived (and the quality of its crew).
Third, the Galaxy class were built as Explorer ships, different from the classes that had come before because the Federation was finally at peace with its neighbors. It was designed from the start for long-term habitation away from bases (this was very plainly stated in every source of the ship) more than tactical abilities, and so it had a different emphasis than the Excelsior or Ambassadors that came before it. That doesn't mean it was lacking in ability to defend itself (quite the opposite), but that combat ability was not a primary consideration when the ship was designed (unlike the previous two classes). Durability, reliability, and safety were. After the Borg appeared, and wars erupted with the Empire and Dominion despite Starfleet's policies of negotiation, follow-on classes like the Sovereign returned to tactical considerations as an important aspect of ship design.
Lastly, saying it 'isn't right' that an older ship is more capable than a newer one is simple bais. The Iowa-class Battleships prove this can be the case in the real world, and it is clear that a brand new ship constructed in the form of an older class but with state-of-the-art systems would still be a state-of-the-art ship. Add to that a unique system -ahead- of what is state-of-the-art, and it is very reasonable that the ship would be better in some areas than any comparable 'modern' ship (though not in all others...the crew of an Excelsior does not have the endurance away from base that the Galaxy crew has. In fact, only the Odyssey equals the ability of the Galaxy for long-duration mission capability).
I can see where the Venture skin debate has a point, but as it is only a re-skin of an existing ship and not a ship itself, it's no different than the other z-store reskin options: you are paying for the option to have your ship depict a limited-production class that was a 'reengineering' of an older class with current engineering processes and new structures rather than the old ones (i.e. Venture class ships are Starfleet Engineering Corps answer to producing a replacement for the Galaxy class that performs identically but with systems in use on other new classes to duplicate older design systems). Thus, while the Venture skin may make the ship look like a hyper-modern version of the Galaxy class, it is still an Exploration Cruiser and not a new class of ship. You are paying for appearance alone, and know that when you buy it. Thus, trying to say it should be better because people wanted to put additional optional money to spruce up the outside of their ship and make it look shiny is debateable logic.
The word "Flagship" when used in it's literal definition refers to a ship under the direct command of a Commodore (Rear Admiral of either class), Vice Admiral, Admiral, or Fleet Admiral. The term in it's colloquial meaning as it is often used in relation to the various Enterprises in Star Trek refers to the most advanced ship in Starfleet at any given time, which is usually the furthest from home and the one that is in the most danger at any given time. You do not put an Admiral of any rank on a ship that is regularly going to be facing off against threats like the Borg, Klingon Armada, or Romulan Military. The Admiral rank denotes a certain level of indispensability. In otherwords, Captain Jean Luc Picard was expendable.
Er... fair point. confounding both of those is the fact that said database was compiled by time travelers.
How about you actually read what I said. What I said was that the Enterprise which was described by the Klingons as a battle cruiser AND the Excelsior which the Klingons made no comment as to the designation of type of vessel it was, were BOTH present at the final Confrontation of Star Trek 6. So while one was defined by the Klingons as a battle cruiser, the other may or may not have been. However the Constitution Class and the Excelsior Class were both designed in a period during which Starfleet had use for ships designed explicitly for War.
The Constitution Class despite being classified as a Cruiser class vessel is exceedingly Spartan as far as crew accommodations go. In fact it is fairly rare that you see long term Civilian passengers on board the Constitution Class vessels. Similarly, onboard the Excelsior Class it is likewise extremely rare for long term civilian passengers to be present. In fact most of the crew onboard the U.S.S. Excelsior lived in Barrack style bunkbeds (as was seen in a Voyager episode). So in a way the excelsior was even more spartan than the Constitution Class. Of course in the case of the U.S.S. Excelsior that could be chocked up to additional space being needed for the excessive hull reinforcement needed to make the Transwarp Drive feasible in the first place. But still.
It is called an example. The Phaser Lance shot through Klingon Battle Cruisers complete with fully operational shields just like a normal phaser array would shoot through any ship if it had no shields at all whatsoever. My supposition was based on the assumption that such a devastating weapon could shoot through an unprepared borg cube like it is nothing. And given that most borg cubes need to adapt before they can put up a reliable resistance against conventional weaponry a single shot from a weapon that can puncture normal ships like they are nothing might catch the borg off guard, even if just for that single instant that it takes to kill the ship pre-emptively.
Okay, here's the thing. The Enterprise-D would be roughly the equivalent of a Fleet version of the Exploration Class Cruiser. That means it has not only the highest hull rating in the game, but also one of the best shield ratings as far as cruisers go. Add to the fact that it can effectively be outfitted with more armor emplacements than any other ship in starfleet, and the fact that the crew has prior experience before Wolf 359 facing off against the borg so they kind of know what to expect and what not to expect. Plus the mindset of the Federation prior to Wolf 359 was to try to negotiate with their enemies for a peaceful conclusion to their conflict. The Borg have no use for that kind of tactic, they will shoot first and ask no questions later assuming that they feel your ship holds no value to them in terms of meaningful assimilation. They probably got a great deal of data about starfleet when they first encountered the Enterprise, and based on that data determined which ships were priority targets for termination, and which ships would serve as the best targets for assimilation and went from there.
I wouldn't know, I haven't seen that episode.
First off. I didn't reference TNG: "Q Who?", the only episode I referenced was TNG: "Best of Both Worlds" (Parts I and II, to be precise). You're right, it is apples and oranges, which is why I just focused on the events in that episode alone, and the battle scenes that took place at Wolf 359 in DS9: "Emissary".
You can't assume there were Galaxy-class ships there, unless you have visual proof from the episode that a member of that class was present. Neither in the graveyard scene, nor the actual battle in DS9: "Emissary" does it show a Galaxy-class ship there. It did show the Nebula-class present, which is a possible reason why you might have mistook a Nebula-class nacelle in the graveyard as from a Galaxy-class, and not a Nebula-class.
Also, in the second half of "Best of Both Worlds", once Data was hacking Locutus to obtain the shutdown command, the Borg cube designated the Enterprise as a threat. The Enterprise-D had already sustained some damage, but it still took about two to three minutes for the shields to be breached and hull breaches in the Engineering section to become critical. And still, the Enterprise-D was capable of ramming the Cube, as Riker tried to do before holding back at the last second. Meanwhile, the Wolf 359 battle depicted in DS9: "Emissary" showed a cutting beam poking a sizeable hole in the saucer of an Excelsior in about two seconds of firing.
I'd say, with the Cube multitasking in the Wolf 359 battle compared to just the Enterprise-D versus the Cube in the end of "Best of Both Worlds", I'd say, with a fair certainty, the Galaxy-class fared better.
I just look at the "facts". You don't see Constiution-class starships running around in the Dominion War, or even in TNG or DS9 episodes. The design is simply too old. Same principle applies with the Excelsior. By 2413, the design is 130 years old. It should not be outperforming a ship that is 70 years newer, and with twice the mass, a much bigger hull and powerplant, and a time-tested and evolved design.
Also, I should bring this up; you reference a real-life example of an older class of sea ship performing equally as well as newer ships. First, you did bring up comparing apples and oranges, which applies here. Second, some internet reading taught me that the Iowa-class was decommissioned in 2012, since the ships are simply too old. Sorry to turn your argument against you, but the facts support decommissioning older ships from active duty simply because they are too old, and I quote, "only to be retired after the collapse of the Soviet Union on the grounds that they were too expensive to maintain."
Going back to the main topic. The Galaxy-class ships should still be in service as a supportive cruiser, and not be bested by a design that is over 130 years old by the time of this game. It isn't realistic, it isn't fair to Galaxy-class fans, and it doesn't help the continuity that this game is trying to establish.
Don't get me wrong. I like the Excelsior, both in design and in stats, and I plan to get one in the next ship sale. But it looks weird that a ship design that is, by all means outdated, can outperform a ship class with greater capabilities and was, at one point, the flagship of the Federation Starfleet.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Really the Galaxy-R and the Galaxy-X are both VA level vessels, but are closer to a RA ship than the VA cruisers as far as stats go. The Oddy's have 3K more hull than the Galaxy's and a full 1.5K crew. For ships that should be pretty evenly matched, that's a pretty big difference.
I'm just reminded of the old Galaxy-X and how it was at release. People used to call it the Tier 4.5 ship. It sucked worse than a Tier 5 ship, but was just a bit better than your average Tier 4 ship. It seems now it's the 5.5 ship. Not really RA, but not really VA either.
and admirals rode around in them because decades earlier that was the ship they were captains of. so they basicly got to keep it when they needed to leave the office. its not like a federation admiral would be on a front line and need to be in command of the most powerful ship, they didn't lead fleets into battle. every admiral having a galaxy class is a silly thing that would not exist in the federation.
they could have easily fabricated a phaser ring to place on the excelsior model to cover the turret hardpoints, but they never bothered. even when they made the cgi models they didn't bother! you can lament that all you want, but its on screen canon that they didn't bother bringing the excelsior up to even 2330s level spec. the in game excelsior and galaxy should swap station setups, it would make more sense.
we only saw them in later battles in DS9 because there was such a surplus of them. they did have some combat worth, it was comparable to a defiant class in battle. a modern starfleet ship could match all the firepower they could put on an ancient excelsior hull on a ship 16 times smaller.
any excelsior that survived the domionion war would not have been kept around much longer. everything from the soverign class to the saber class was in some way a direct replacement for the excelsior and for the role it had served for so long. the ship being in STO, and being an end game ship is an hilarious joke.
No, that would be the Excelsior.
Funny. A lot of us here happen to be the type to go after such redheads. :P
And they can try to go after me in my Galaxy-X. I've had about a year to get familiar with the old girl, and we're almost completely in synch. People have tried, and unless most of the 5-man team is targeting me, I'm still alive and well, and the ADHD escort pilots lose interest.
And yeah I can agree with you. The Galaxy-X isn't that strong of a ship. However, I'd take it over that Big-Fat-Odyssey that Starfleet calls a flagship class.
No, the Excelsior may be Overpowered in this game, but that shouldn't affect the look of the ship. The Excelsior's a great looking ship. It's the kitbashes that look terrible.
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It's actually very simple. If you watch DS9 you see lots and lots of situations with the defiant killing stuff. Blowing up all sorts of diverse enemies.
If you watch Next Generation you see lots of footage of the Enterprise staring at other starships, and they trade some insults, then everyone goes home. Then picard and crew go scan some anomaly or the holodeck malfunctions.
See the difference?
In STO, the defiant-class is made for blowing stuff up. The galaxy-class is made for sitting still and staring at stuff. Just like in the shows.
Additionally a Heavy Beam Array and this ship still wouldn't be OP, but at least there would be a good reason to equip it with some weapons in the first place.
When i see how much utility the Vesta or even the Ambassador have, i start to belive Cryptics deliberately keeps the Galaxy Class as bad as possible just to punish everyone who likes it.
Maybe replace one technical or science console in favor of a technical console and make that Tech ensign a Tech Lieutenant and make the Tech-Lieutenant-Commander a Universal Lieutenant. That wouldn not only benefit the firepower of the ship but it would also enhance its flexibility. AND the firepower with 2 Tier I and 2 Tier II Boff abilities wouldnt go over the top. But it would allow some of the effects seen in the Show with torpedo spreads fired and Beam arrays attacking multiple targets or firing one powerfull beam like Beam overload.
It wouldnt be as powerfull as the Assault cruiser retrofit or even the fleet excelsior.
Maybe there is the possibility to release a more tactical focussed Galaxy Class like the Venture Variant seen in DS9 . It had the same Phasser arrays ontop of the nacelles like the Galaxy X had. Other than that it looked like a Regular Galaxy Class ship.
Granted it was only seen for a brief Moment on Screen but other ships in game werent shown in great lenght or detail either (Saber, Steamrunner, Centaur etc.)
Id gladly pay for a more powerfull Galaxy Class Variant.
Eddy
Don't get me wrong, I would love to have all this talk of console abilities like the heavy beam array, or the universal Lt. slots, just trying to be realistic.
Edit:
Or even a tactical version of the Ambassador. Again, swapping science for tactical.
Commander Science, Lieutenant Commander Engineering, Lieutenant Commander Universal, Lieutenant Tactical, Ensign Science
no that would be the chimera
Not really. You saw galaxies parked several times, but the only times I remember off hand them actually being shown in combat on DS9 are:
The episode where that galaxy goes on a rescue mission into the gamma quadrant, gets itself all blown up, and the only survivors are the runabouts.
'Sacrifice of Angels' had "galaxy wings" and while they did indeed shoot stuff, it was only the defiant that managed to fight its way through the dominion lines, and none of the galaxies.
Those are the only times I remember a galaxy seeing combat in DS9, if there's more I'm not recalling it off hand. And in both of those cases, at least, the big ole galaxies get shown up by much, much smaller ships.
There's the Battle of Chin'toka, where the USS Galaxy got shot at, and the Venture torpedoes a turret to death. And the final battle, where a "blank" Galaxy was seen firing, but at what, anyone can guess.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Wasn't it a Dominion Battleship? The Galaxy is a tactical powerhouse regardless of what universe she is in and there is nothing Cryptic can do to change that.
No thankfully they can't.
But they are just going to ignore it as they always do, which is a shame. I just can't understand their motivations, it wouldn't hurt them to give the Galaxy Class a bit more love.
This ship is one of the most popular Star Trek ships and yet they made it the most boring ship in the game, why?
I absolutely hate the Galaxy class BOFF & Console layout.
Boo on you, sir!
Lest we not forget that the Enterprise-D was taken out by a few shots from an outdated Bird-of-Prey, too.
Still, the Galaxy Retrofit really does need some attention. I wouldn't begrudge it at least a Universal Lt. slot on its Fleet variant, honestly, as well as a bit of a hull boost for it and the Galaxy-X.