the prop shown in first contact is the same warp core prop from TNG just with the added "coolant" tubes on the side and red lights at the top. it was also set in a more open area on the set instead of encased
Indeed. Where on the Galaxy and its predecessors the engineering room only took up two main decks at the most, the Sovereign's engine room is far larger, encompassing three (or four?) decks. The core is still around the same length.
(Forced perspective.)
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
If we just substract the current discussion from this thread, we probably wouldn't hit 120 pages.
I don't expect everyone to read through 600+ pages, but COME ON. We can't have the same discussion AGAIN...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Yes, I am aware of how the phaser array works. I have discussed it before.
You do? That is awesome, when will you build one?
No seriously: You guys are crazy. The series frequently altered their own rules, changing stuff etc.
Just take the "beam through shields, beam not through shields, beam through shields only if you know the frequency and so on..." discussion. Their is no real technological background in the ST universe, the writers do, what they think they need to for an interesting story.
Or to make a long story short: Arguing about the technology in Star Trek, even if you base it on things that happened in the series or are written in the manual, is utterly, utterly pointless, because you still arguing about something fictional, that doesn't exist and that only ever did, what the writers wanted it to do. Hell, for a lot of ships they even changed basic things like the dimensions. Just look at the BoP and how those ships constantly changed in size.
No seriously: You guys are crazy. The series frequently altered their own rules, changing stuff etc.
Just take the "beam through shields, beam not through shields, beam through shields only if you know the frequency and so on..." discussion. Their is no real technological background in the ST universe, the writers do, what they think they need to for an interesting story.
Or to make a long story short: Arguing about the technology in Star Trek, even if you base it on things that happened in the series or are written in the manual, is utterly, utterly pointless, because you still arguing about something fictional, that doesn't exist and that only ever did, what the writers wanted it to do. Hell, for a lot of ships they even changed basic things like the dimensions. Just look at the BoP and how those ships constantly changed in size.
Excuse me, but I think if you feel the urge to try and convince other people that their fictional tv show doesn't exist, you are the one taking things a bit too serious
The thing is there is material on-screen and in secondary sources that describe how those fictional technology works. It doesn't make sense in real ife, but it's a sci-fi show, what do you expect? For some people it s fun and a passion to kep trac of those hings and debate about it. And f the show needs to change something for a plot point to work they do it and delver some treknobabble explanation which then becomes canon. A game based on the IP, however, "can't" simply change the rules but has to follow them, or make up its own "soft" rules which however hold no value when discussing canon.
It doesn't matter if something is real or not, for quite a few people in here it is simply fun to have this debate.
EDIT: sorry for the horrible typing, but my keyboad's batteries seem to be dying
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A game based on the IP, however, "can't" simply change the rules
Of course it can.
The shows did it all the time and the game does it everywhere and it absolutely has to. If it wouldn't, the Galaxy would be an outdated Tier 3 ship and the Galaxy X wouldn't even exist, since that timeline never happened in the first place.
The shows did it all the time and the game does it everywhere and it absolutely has to. If it wouldn't, the Galaxy would be an outdated Tier 3 ship and the Galaxy X wouldn't even exist, since that timeline never happened in the first place.
Please don't crop my sentence
I said of course it can, but when it does it's game canon, not Trek canon and thus has no influence on the "rulebook" of the shows. And when the shows have to change canon they deliver some treknobabble excuse, which is required for it to work. On-screen, we can distinguish between regular operations and a "one-in-a-million chance wizardry". If scotty can "remodulate the multi-motor reflection grid" on a transporter and thus it works against established rules, we know that is scotty miracle working. Nobody else would be able to do this again and it was a unique trick that probably trashed the transporter afterwards and was never used again.
So, my point is, the show can change things with a blatant excuse, because the shows always followed the best of the best, the smartest of mankind and nobody else would be able to miracle work technology to bend to his or her will like the crews on the show. That's in most cases the explanation for "bending canon", yet the "rulebooks" and established canon do specify how things work regularily.
Trek canon isn't really all that complicated, but for most of the time it is surprpisingly consistent if you do dive into the material. And in other cases, well, it's a sci-fi show based on ideas developed in the sixties, dammit
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
That's in most cases the explanation for "bending canon", yet the "rulebooks" and established canon do specify how things work regularily.
Trek canon isn't really all that complicated, but for most of the time it is surprpisingly consistent if you do dive into the material. And in other cases, well, it's a sci-fi show based on ideas developed in the sixties, dammit
That might have been "somewhat" true for TOS and TNG, but with Voy and Enterprise they theow that out of the window as well, specially since both crews aren't the best and brightest, but the most stupid people, Starfleet had to offer.
Hell, the Enterprise show in itself was a complete Retcon and frequently contradicted, what was said in earlier shows.
Does anyone read the tech manuals they are taking and posting all their speculation info from?
Enterprise 12 type 10 phaser arrays with 50,000 terawatts of total output, 2 type 3 photon torpedoe launchers, shield capacity system: 2.7 million terajoules.
Enterprise E: 12 type 12 phaser arrays with 85,000 terawatts of total outpuit, 5 type 4 photon torpedo launchers, 1 rapidfire quantum torpedo launcher, shield capacity system: 4.59 million terajoules.
But I'll just restress my original point, it doesn't matter what the books say. The writers did whatever they wanted. But for you guys who want to quote consepts and statistics from the manuals, by every measure given the sovereign was a tougher ship then the galaxy. That's not talking anything away from the galaxy. The sovereign was just designed to be more combat capable.
Now how do you apply logic in this game to 1 ship being canonically better then the other while at the same tier? You can only do it via layout: boffs, consoles, and so on because everyone uses the same mk 12 purple gear. You either have to side with canon and accept the galaxy being less tactical or you throw canon out the window. But if you throw it out for the galaxy that means you can throw it out for everything else too.
Like someone else said a few pages back, in pve the galaxy is fine. In pvp it comes up short, but it would've come up short in canon too. Ships that came after it were just designed better.
That might have been "somewhat" true for TOS and TNG, but with Voy and Enterprise they theow that out of the window as well, specially since both crews aren't the best and brightest, but the most stupid people, Starfleet had to offer.
Hell, the Enterprise show in itself was a complete Retcon and frequently contradicted, what was said in earlier shows.
Well, this is where I personally come from and I'm afraid you are right. There is so much writing that shoves needles under my hooves past DS9, it's something I have accept but usually I'm referring to the old times Yet, even with the retconning orgy that was ENT and the clueless show VOY was, the basic rules still apply.
Does anyone read the tech manuals they are taking and posting all their speculation info from?
Enterprise 12 type 10 phaser arrays with 50,000 terawatts of total output, 2 type 3 photon torpedoe launchers, shield capacity system: 2.7 million terajoules.
Enterprise E: 12 type 12 phaser arrays with 85,000 terawatts of total outpuit, 5 type 4 photon torpedo launchers, 1 rapidfire quantum torpedo launcher, shield capacity system: 4.59 million terajoules.
But I'll just restress my original point, it doesn't matter what the books say. The writers did whatever they wanted. But for you guys who want to quote consepts and statistics from the manuals, by every measure given the sovereign was a tougher ship then the galaxy. That's not talking anything away from the galaxy. The sovereign was just designed to be more combat capable.
Now how do you apply logic in this game to 1 ship being canonically better then the other while at the same tier? You can only do it via layout: boffs, consoles, and so on because everyone uses the same mk 12 purple gear. You either have to side with canon and accept the galaxy being less tactical or you throw canon out the window. But if you throw it out for the galaxy that means you can throw it out for everything else too.
Like someone else said a few pages back, in pve the galaxy is fine. In pvp it comes up short, but it would've come up short in canon too. Ships that came after it were just designed better.
*sigh*
The Sovereign class launched with mark XII phaser arrays while the Galaxy launched with mark Xs and the shielding was also more advanced - that's no secret. By the way, a number of phaser arrays has no meaning, really. The Galaxy has to huge dorsal and ventral arrays while the sovereigns chevron arrays are separated. The Intrepid even got more arrays because more smaller ones are plastered around the hull since the chevron design is quite a bit inferior to the saucer And if you had followed this thread for more than five pages you'd know that no one ever sounded a doubt that the Sovereign at the stage of launch was more advanced than the Galaxy - the Galaxy however would, like any other vessel in Starfleet that can take the new tech, re refitted with current technology, including quantum torpedoes and mark XII phasers. And still, both ship are designed with a different mission profile in mind. I personally (and that isn't shared amongst "us" (lol) ) do cosnider the Sov a better "battlecruiser", the Galaxy however is a steamroller with more firepower.
STOs incarnation across the board suffers from the roles they plastered onto ships. But I'm tired of that discussion XD
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The episode where Geordi talks about boosting phaser output was the one where Lt Barclay was scanned by an alien probe and becomes a super genius and connects his brain to the computer via the holodeck. I have mentioned this episode before specifically but am on vacation now and don't remember the episode name.
Ah right, "The Nth Degree". I'll take a look at it soon.
Enjoy your vacation!
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Yeah, people tend to forget that the tech in ST is an afterthought, used to fill in the plot where necessary. Trek is a character drama, not hard Sci Fi.
We are the ones who take it as seriously as we do. Some of us to unhealthy levels, others not so.
If we were to try and hold the game to the lore too strictly, I should be able to one shot scimitars by shoving my android boff in the torpedo tubes :P
I love to lore grind with the rest of you, but if we are being honest, the writers treat the lore as a tool to be re-sharpened and re-shaped as the current project requires. I try to chase canon where I can. You can't win. It is not coherent. You will eventually lose.
All that said... Cryptic sometimes seems like they throw in the towel *WAY* too soon. I try not to judge to harsh.
Galaxy revamp was meh tho. Gal-X rocks my socks, but the Gal-R... Now eclipsed by her own subclass (I defended her before, now I completely agree, no reason to fly her over the Gal-X unless you have a pathological aversion to third nacelles.)
Shhh... Don't interrupt their concentration! :P
I think we are in agreement if I say that per-episode tricks that Geordi or someone else does to move the plot forward cannot be used as any evidence or comparisons.
IMHO, perhaps the Technical Manuals can be used, but even then that information can be contradictory. The only true comparisons that can be made are within STO itself because it is just too different from anything that might be considered canon.
Regarding the Galaxy Reboot, Cryptic really should have tried a little harder. I guess they wanted to make sure that it wasn't possible for the Gal-X to overshadow any of the other newer C-Store ships.
I have the Gal-R but was looking forward to buying a better Gal-X, but now... meh. Not so jazzed now.
Star Trek Battles Channel - Play Star Trek like they did in the series!Avatar: pinterest-com/pin/14003448816884219Are you sure it isn't time for a "colorful metaphor"? --Spock in 'The Voyage Home' SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
Main reason the Enterprise E model was touched up to add new weapons for Nemesis was that it was originally designed with almost no weapons on the rear of the model. The way they were wanting to use it in Nemesis required the addition. The is just talking about the model though, not the in canon design.
Does anyone read the tech manuals they are taking and posting all their speculation info from?
Enterprise 12 type 10 phaser arrays with 50,000 terawatts of total output, 2 type 3 photon torpedoe launchers, shield capacity system: 2.7 million terajoules.
Enterprise E: 12 type 12 phaser arrays with 85,000 terawatts of total outpuit, 5 type 4 photon torpedo launchers, 1 rapidfire quantum torpedo launcher, shield capacity system: 4.59 million terajoules.
But I'll just restress my original point, it doesn't matter what the books say. The writers did whatever they wanted. But for you guys who want to quote consepts and statistics from the manuals, by every measure given the sovereign was a tougher ship then the galaxy. That's not talking anything away from the galaxy. The sovereign was just designed to be more combat capable.
Now how do you apply logic in this game to 1 ship being canonically better then the other while at the same tier? You can only do it via layout: boffs, consoles, and so on because everyone uses the same mk 12 purple gear. You either have to side with canon and accept the galaxy being less tactical or you throw canon out the window. But if you throw it out for the galaxy that means you can throw it out for everything else too.
Like someone else said a few pages back, in pve the galaxy is fine. In pvp it comes up short, but it would've come up short in canon too. Ships that came after it were just designed better.
this was when they where first launched the DS9 tech manual has the dominion galaxies with 14 mk11 with the same output as the ent-e from first contact
the nemesis sov got 15 total arrays and mk13 with a total output of 110,000 terawatts. but at this time the original galaxies where about ready to see there first major overhaul so it is safe to say they would be getting at least mnk12 arrays putting it at the same or higher then the nemesis sov
Now how do you apply logic in this game to 1 ship being canonically better then the other while at the same tier? You can only do it via layout: boffs, consoles, and so on because everyone uses the same mk 12 purple gear. You either have to side with canon and accept the galaxy being less tactical or you throw canon out the window. But if you throw it out for the galaxy that means you can throw it out for everything else too.
too bad this same logic isn't apply to the exelsior and ambassador, and as a matter of fact to 80% of the ships in this game.
bias.
but i agree with you on how it happened, devs rules: the galaxy MUST be inferior to the sovy, even in the same tier.
bias.
And the Sovereign wasn't upgraded? We saw it receiving upgrades from movie to movie.
I never claimed that it wasn't? Every ship will recieve retro- and refits as long as the design supports it (pre-TNG hulls were probably outdated and couldn't take newest tech). In STO, the Sovereign even recieved it's complete 25th century refit, so the Venture and Regent types are pretty much both top notch. Still different vessels.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
So my friend and I have been testing builds in 1v1. There isn't a tier 5 cruiser that can't beat the Galaxy down with a competent skipper, and or equivalent load out. The Excelsior literally manhandles the ship. Which is ridiculous. It amuses me how many people are afraid, or do not want a revamp of the Galaxy class. Having said that, the Oddy SHOULD be better and as much as people may not want to hear this, the Sovvy should be "better" also. The problem is what they should be better at. Yes the Galaxy CAN take a beating. But it really just doesn't hit back hard enough to be useful. Maybe the Sovvy should be a more powerful hit and run ship? But the Galaxy a tougher command ship? I'm not sure what the solution is. I'm going to keep trying different Galaxy builds. I love the ship, it just really lacks a role in the game. I do t have a problem with a good Excelsior build being good, my favorite ship in game is actually the Ambassador retrofit, but I think the Galaxy needs something to make it special, aside form the console bonus it was given. Now the dread is fixed,so to speak. But I hate to say it but the Galaxy, at this point, feels like it didn't really get any love.......
Edit: I think the other issue I have is, don't tell me not to want changes, when you design scenarios Like No Win Scenario that really need high dps........
Hahaha... doesnt feel like Galaxy got love? I know why you feel that way... cause it didn't! They completely skipped over the Galaxy-R. Did they fix saucer seperation for it? or for the Galaxy X that they just made a fleet version of. Did they add set bonus because of it? or the Galaxy X they were revamping?
Pretty obvious when you think about it. This entire thread has been about the Galaxy-R not X, yet 0 improvements made to the G-R line. The X needed love, and still does a tad but its in a heck of a lot better shape atm then the G-R.
The G-R is easy to fix the only reason they dont do it is because Gecko is bias as hell and doesn't even hide it. Give the G-R the D'd layout boff/console and we could all be happy. Its what the ship should have had from the start. It also leaves both the G-R and G-X uniquely different from one another.
G-R gets LTC tac/sci boff seating for 1 less tac console, and making it more flexable and sci focused then the X. The X gets the lance, cloak, DHC, +1 tac console for lower tier boff seating. The excel and sov still do more tac based dmg with +1 tac console and same LTC tac station but the G-R makes up that tac based dmg with Sci cc/healing/debuffing and if seperated mobility.
Now that we have fleet turn consoles its low turnrate isnt near the issue it used to be. Simple solution that leaves all other ships unique, yet makes the galaxy on par with them. It also makes the G-R less like the Oddy variants with the 5 eng console layout. For the love of god no hanger! If i want a carrier ill fly my carriers!
If they really dont want to change the ship for people who already have it, add a new variant in the fleet store with the D'D layout. Then we all win, cryptic makes tons of bank, we get a galaxy that doesnt suck giant ballz, and we can finally all burn this thread to the ground.
But because its the right thing to do, cryptic wont do it.
Oh come on. Get off your high horse. the ship can now, saucer sep, cloak, spinal lance, spinal shotgun, load cannons, and launch pets. can any other ships do that? no. so stop your whining about the ship and accept what they did to it, or start saying that they should REMOVE all that they did to it. I'm tired of you feds saying that you need more when you don't.
Oh come on. Get off your high horse. the ship can now, saucer sep, cloak, spinal lance, spinal shotgun, load cannons, and launch pets. can any other ships do that? no. so stop your whining about the ship and accept what they did to it, or start saying that they should REMOVE all that they did to it. I'm tired of you feds saying that you need more when you don't.
what ship are you talking about? it certainly doesn't sound like the galaxy R, the ship we are talking about :rolleyes:
the d'd layout would be great too, maybe make the ENS tac an ENS sci though on it. they could even let it keep its gimp console layout, it would still be a useful ship.
Oh come on. Get off your high horse. the ship can now, saucer sep, cloak, spinal lance, spinal shotgun, load cannons, and launch pets. can any other ships do that? no. so stop your whining about the ship and accept what they did to it, or start saying that they should REMOVE all that they did to it. I'm tired of you feds saying that you need more when you don't.
You've got the wrong ship here, mate. This is first and foremost about the Galaxy-R.
Also, I'm mainly a KDF player - this thread has nothing to do about standard whining for MOAR, it has everything to do with the presentation, or better said misspresentation of an iconic Star Trek ship in this game and her role, or better said the lack of such.
Oh come on. Get off your high horse. the ship can now, saucer sep, cloak, spinal lance, spinal shotgun, load cannons, and launch pets. can any other ships do that? no. so stop your whining about the ship and accept what they did to it, or start saying that they should REMOVE all that they did to it. I'm tired of you feds saying that you need more when you don't.
last i checked the exploration retrofit does not have any of that
they ought to update the negvar too, the galaxy, d'deridex, and negh'var are all counterparts as the largest canon ship for each side. they should all have the d'deridex style station setup, only difference being what ENS station they get. tac for the d'd, sci for the gal, and eng for the neg, with the other ENS uni still. with all of them having a 4/3/3 console layout. you would think doing right by canon ships would be the best way to make money, it certainly seems like its worked for all the non faction canon ships they make
they ought to update the negvar too, the galaxy, d'deridex, and negh'var are all counterparts as the largest canon ship for each side.
I was under the impression that, canon wise, the D'Deridex, Galaxy, and Vor'cha were all prominent ships in their time? The Negh'Var was introduced into the prime universe much later than the D'Deridex or Galaxy.
I do agree with the boff setup you mentioned though. Cryptic made a good move with the D'Deridex boff setup. If only they could apply that to the Gal-R and Negh'Var (and fleet versions).
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I was under the impression that, canon wise, the D'Deridex, Galaxy, and Vor'cha were all prominent ships in their time? The Negh'Var was introduced into the prime universe much later than the D'Deridex or Galaxy.
I do agree with the boff setup you mentioned though. Cryptic made a good move with the D'Deridex boff setup. If only they could apply that to the Gal-R and Negh'Var (and fleet versions).
the d'deridex is sort of unknown, could have come out at almost exactly the same time as the galaxy, but its likely that its as much as 10 years older, for it to so dominate the romulan fleet. the vorcha is certainly older then galaxy by at least 5 years i imagine, the negvar came last but its not more then 10 years older then the galaxy. as far as which is most powerful, id rate d'deridex, negvar, galaxy, all quite close in firepower, but vorcha quite a bit less powerful then this crowd. its not even as large as an akira though, a ~1,200,000m³ ship has no business competing with ships 5 to 20 times its size.
klingon cruisers are typically on the small side, the negvar was the first time they really built something to scale with the federation and romulans. it was mostly gowron's vanity project, and its existence was pretty counter to typical klingon small ship hit and run doctrine. the vorcha is a very powerful ship, certainly the most powerful ship with its mass, but its more like a late answer to the ambassador class, like the negvar is a late answer to the galaxy. the soverign could perfectly be described as the federations vorcha though
Comments
Indeed. Where on the Galaxy and its predecessors the engineering room only took up two main decks at the most, the Sovereign's engine room is far larger, encompassing three (or four?) decks. The core is still around the same length.
(Forced perspective.)
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I don't expect everyone to read through 600+ pages, but COME ON. We can't have the same discussion AGAIN...
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You do? That is awesome, when will you build one?
No seriously: You guys are crazy. The series frequently altered their own rules, changing stuff etc.
Just take the "beam through shields, beam not through shields, beam through shields only if you know the frequency and so on..." discussion. Their is no real technological background in the ST universe, the writers do, what they think they need to for an interesting story.
Or to make a long story short: Arguing about the technology in Star Trek, even if you base it on things that happened in the series or are written in the manual, is utterly, utterly pointless, because you still arguing about something fictional, that doesn't exist and that only ever did, what the writers wanted it to do. Hell, for a lot of ships they even changed basic things like the dimensions. Just look at the BoP and how those ships constantly changed in size.
Excuse me, but I think if you feel the urge to try and convince other people that their fictional tv show doesn't exist, you are the one taking things a bit too serious
The thing is there is material on-screen and in secondary sources that describe how those fictional technology works. It doesn't make sense in real ife, but it's a sci-fi show, what do you expect? For some people it s fun and a passion to kep trac of those hings and debate about it. And f the show needs to change something for a plot point to work they do it and delver some treknobabble explanation which then becomes canon. A game based on the IP, however, "can't" simply change the rules but has to follow them, or make up its own "soft" rules which however hold no value when discussing canon.
It doesn't matter if something is real or not, for quite a few people in here it is simply fun to have this debate.
EDIT: sorry for the horrible typing, but my keyboad's batteries seem to be dying
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Of course it can.
The shows did it all the time and the game does it everywhere and it absolutely has to. If it wouldn't, the Galaxy would be an outdated Tier 3 ship and the Galaxy X wouldn't even exist, since that timeline never happened in the first place.
Please don't crop my sentence
I said of course it can, but when it does it's game canon, not Trek canon and thus has no influence on the "rulebook" of the shows. And when the shows have to change canon they deliver some treknobabble excuse, which is required for it to work. On-screen, we can distinguish between regular operations and a "one-in-a-million chance wizardry". If scotty can "remodulate the multi-motor reflection grid" on a transporter and thus it works against established rules, we know that is scotty miracle working. Nobody else would be able to do this again and it was a unique trick that probably trashed the transporter afterwards and was never used again.
So, my point is, the show can change things with a blatant excuse, because the shows always followed the best of the best, the smartest of mankind and nobody else would be able to miracle work technology to bend to his or her will like the crews on the show. That's in most cases the explanation for "bending canon", yet the "rulebooks" and established canon do specify how things work regularily.
Trek canon isn't really all that complicated, but for most of the time it is surprpisingly consistent if you do dive into the material. And in other cases, well, it's a sci-fi show based on ideas developed in the sixties, dammit
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That might have been "somewhat" true for TOS and TNG, but with Voy and Enterprise they theow that out of the window as well, specially since both crews aren't the best and brightest, but the most stupid people, Starfleet had to offer.
Hell, the Enterprise show in itself was a complete Retcon and frequently contradicted, what was said in earlier shows.
Enterprise
Enterprise E: 12 type 12 phaser arrays with 85,000 terawatts of total outpuit, 5 type 4 photon torpedo launchers, 1 rapidfire quantum torpedo launcher, shield capacity system: 4.59 million terajoules.
But I'll just restress my original point, it doesn't matter what the books say. The writers did whatever they wanted. But for you guys who want to quote consepts and statistics from the manuals, by every measure given the sovereign was a tougher ship then the galaxy. That's not talking anything away from the galaxy. The sovereign was just designed to be more combat capable.
Now how do you apply logic in this game to 1 ship being canonically better then the other while at the same tier? You can only do it via layout: boffs, consoles, and so on because everyone uses the same mk 12 purple gear. You either have to side with canon and accept the galaxy being less tactical or you throw canon out the window. But if you throw it out for the galaxy that means you can throw it out for everything else too.
Like someone else said a few pages back, in pve the galaxy is fine. In pvp it comes up short, but it would've come up short in canon too. Ships that came after it were just designed better.
Well, this is where I personally come from and I'm afraid you are right. There is so much writing that shoves needles under my hooves past DS9, it's something I have accept but usually I'm referring to the old times
*sigh*
The Sovereign class launched with mark XII phaser arrays while the Galaxy launched with mark Xs and the shielding was also more advanced - that's no secret. By the way, a number of phaser arrays has no meaning, really. The Galaxy has to huge dorsal and ventral arrays while the sovereigns chevron arrays are separated. The Intrepid even got more arrays because more smaller ones are plastered around the hull since the chevron design is quite a bit inferior to the saucer
STOs incarnation across the board suffers from the roles they plastered onto ships. But I'm tired of that discussion XD
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Ah right, "The Nth Degree". I'll take a look at it soon.
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Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Shhh... Don't interrupt their concentration! :P
I think we are in agreement if I say that per-episode tricks that Geordi or someone else does to move the plot forward cannot be used as any evidence or comparisons.
IMHO, perhaps the Technical Manuals can be used, but even then that information can be contradictory. The only true comparisons that can be made are within STO itself because it is just too different from anything that might be considered canon.
Regarding the Galaxy Reboot, Cryptic really should have tried a little harder. I guess they wanted to make sure that it wasn't possible for the Gal-X to overshadow any of the other newer C-Store ships.
I have the Gal-R but was looking forward to buying a better Gal-X, but now... meh. Not so jazzed now.
SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
I fail to see the point here.
this was when they where first launched the DS9 tech manual has the dominion galaxies with 14 mk11 with the same output as the ent-e from first contact
the nemesis sov got 15 total arrays and mk13 with a total output of 110,000 terawatts. but at this time the original galaxies where about ready to see there first major overhaul so it is safe to say they would be getting at least mnk12 arrays putting it at the same or higher then the nemesis sov
She's armed with
12 Mk X Party Poppers
2 Burst Fire Disco Ball Tubes
The Grace and Elegance of Worf dancing the Samba
This explains the nice light show we get when she fires weapons and the terrible turn rate she's blessed with
too bad this same logic isn't apply to the exelsior and ambassador, and as a matter of fact to 80% of the ships in this game.
bias.
but i agree with you on how it happened, devs rules: the galaxy MUST be inferior to the sovy, even in the same tier.
bias.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
I never claimed that it wasn't? Every ship will recieve retro- and refits as long as the design supports it (pre-TNG hulls were probably outdated and couldn't take newest tech). In STO, the Sovereign even recieved it's complete 25th century refit, so the Venture and Regent types are pretty much both top notch. Still different vessels.
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Edit: I think the other issue I have is, don't tell me not to want changes, when you design scenarios Like No Win Scenario that really need high dps........
Pretty obvious when you think about it. This entire thread has been about the Galaxy-R not X, yet 0 improvements made to the G-R line. The X needed love, and still does a tad but its in a heck of a lot better shape atm then the G-R.
The G-R is easy to fix the only reason they dont do it is because Gecko is bias as hell and doesn't even hide it. Give the G-R the D'd layout boff/console and we could all be happy. Its what the ship should have had from the start. It also leaves both the G-R and G-X uniquely different from one another.
G-R gets LTC tac/sci boff seating for 1 less tac console, and making it more flexable and sci focused then the X. The X gets the lance, cloak, DHC, +1 tac console for lower tier boff seating. The excel and sov still do more tac based dmg with +1 tac console and same LTC tac station but the G-R makes up that tac based dmg with Sci cc/healing/debuffing and if seperated mobility.
Now that we have fleet turn consoles its low turnrate isnt near the issue it used to be. Simple solution that leaves all other ships unique, yet makes the galaxy on par with them. It also makes the G-R less like the Oddy variants with the 5 eng console layout. For the love of god no hanger! If i want a carrier ill fly my carriers!
If they really dont want to change the ship for people who already have it, add a new variant in the fleet store with the D'D layout. Then we all win, cryptic makes tons of bank, we get a galaxy that doesnt suck giant ballz, and we can finally all burn this thread to the ground.
But because its the right thing to do, cryptic wont do it.
what ship are you talking about? it certainly doesn't sound like the galaxy R, the ship we are talking about :rolleyes:
the d'd layout would be great too, maybe make the ENS tac an ENS sci though on it. they could even let it keep its gimp console layout, it would still be a useful ship.
You've got the wrong ship here, mate. This is first and foremost about the Galaxy-R.
Also, I'm mainly a KDF player - this thread has nothing to do about standard whining for MOAR, it has everything to do with the presentation, or better said misspresentation of an iconic Star Trek ship in this game and her role, or better said the lack of such.
last i checked the exploration retrofit does not have any of that
the dreadnought cruiser does
I do agree with the boff setup you mentioned though. Cryptic made a good move with the D'Deridex boff setup. If only they could apply that to the Gal-R and Negh'Var (and fleet versions).
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the d'deridex is sort of unknown, could have come out at almost exactly the same time as the galaxy, but its likely that its as much as 10 years older, for it to so dominate the romulan fleet. the vorcha is certainly older then galaxy by at least 5 years i imagine, the negvar came last but its not more then 10 years older then the galaxy. as far as which is most powerful, id rate d'deridex, negvar, galaxy, all quite close in firepower, but vorcha quite a bit less powerful then this crowd. its not even as large as an akira though, a ~1,200,000m³ ship has no business competing with ships 5 to 20 times its size.
klingon cruisers are typically on the small side, the negvar was the first time they really built something to scale with the federation and romulans. it was mostly gowron's vanity project, and its existence was pretty counter to typical klingon small ship hit and run doctrine. the vorcha is a very powerful ship, certainly the most powerful ship with its mass, but its more like a late answer to the ambassador class, like the negvar is a late answer to the galaxy. the soverign could perfectly be described as the federations vorcha though